Comments on: Gil Meche http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/ Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:59:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Mike http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-178 Mike Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:19:38 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-178 The first few years of his career it looked as if Nolan Ryan would never master his pitches; half-way through his career he seemed destined to be labeled a mediocre pitcher with a great fastball; the last ten years of his career he achieved immortality. Throwing no-hitters as a young fire baller and as a veteran pitcher, Ryan shattered the career strikeout record once held by Walter Johnson. The first few years of his career it looked as if Nolan Ryan would never master his pitches; half-way through his career he seemed destined to be labeled a mediocre pitcher with a great fastball; the last ten years of his career he achieved immortality. Throwing no-hitters as a young fire baller and as a veteran pitcher, Ryan shattered the career strikeout record once held by Walter Johnson.

]]> By: Kelly Gaffney http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-153 Kelly Gaffney Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:22:36 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-153 Mike, Some pitchers learn how to pitch, some do not. The point I wish to make is that not everyone will 'learn' how to pitch and I doubt that it can all be attributed to mental make-up and coaching. We appear to differ as to the extent to which coaching, experience, and talent determine the ability to pitch with command, but I certainly don't know how it all breaks down. Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson are an interesting case. While Nolan Ryan helped Randy Johnson make a breakthrough, whether Nolan Ryan ever learned how to pitch can be questioned. That Randy Johnson did learn how to pitch explains why Randy at his best has been a much more successful pitcher than Nolan Ryan. So why didn't Nolan ever learn how to take a little off his fastball? Was he too stubborn work on it, or just not able to master the skill? Mike, Some pitchers learn how to pitch, some do not. The point I wish to make is that not everyone will ‘learn’ how to pitch and I doubt that it can all be attributed to mental make-up and coaching. We appear to differ as to the extent to which coaching, experience, and talent determine the ability to pitch with command, but I certainly don’t know how it all breaks down.

Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson are an interesting case. While Nolan Ryan helped Randy Johnson make a breakthrough, whether Nolan Ryan ever learned how to pitch can be questioned. That Randy Johnson did learn how to pitch explains why Randy at his best has been a much more successful pitcher than Nolan Ryan. So why didn’t Nolan ever learn how to take a little off his fastball? Was he too stubborn work on it, or just not able to master the skill?

]]> By: isaac http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-150 isaac Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:15:12 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-150 i almost hate that it comes down to this for me, but i just LIKE gil meche. i always have, and on a team full of unlikable players...(spiezio, villone, winn, bloomquist, SPIEZIO) that has to count for something, right? i almost hate that it comes down to this for me, but i just LIKE gil meche. i always have, and on a team full of unlikable players…(spiezio, villone, winn, bloomquist, SPIEZIO) that has to count for something, right?

]]> By: Darrell http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-146 Darrell Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:19:56 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-146 Isn't Camden playing as a hitter's park this year? Something like fifth or sixth in Park Effects? I'm just not ready to fold on Gil - another couple million to stay in the hand sounds okay. Besides, I think they're going to have a hard time giving away money to free agents this time around. They may find it difficult to spend their (mostly mythical) $95 million budget. Isn’t Camden playing as a hitter’s park this year? Something like fifth or sixth in Park Effects?

I’m just not ready to fold on Gil – another couple million to stay in the hand sounds okay. Besides, I think they’re going to have a hard time giving away money to free agents this time around. They may find it difficult to spend their (mostly mythical) $95 million budget.

]]> By: Mike http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-144 Mike Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:52:34 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-144 Kelly, I have to disagree with you on command as a talent, especially with your reference to RJ. Randy was as wild as they come until he sat down with Nolan Ryan and learned how to PITCH, not just throw. Command has everything to do with mental make up, preperation, and mechanics. Those are things a quality pitching coach can drive home with most any pitcher. Case in point, Leo Mazzonie(sp?) look at what he has done with pitchers year after year. This year's prize, Jaret Wright. ERA 3.17, 3.84 BB's/9 7.57 K's/9 12-6 record in 25 starts. By far his best stats of his career. He's always had the golden arm, but no one ever taught him how to pitch. What do you think he could do with Meche? Most pitchers early in their careers get by on talent if they have the stuff to do it. Pitchers who succeed over a long period of time actually learn how pitch. Randy doesn't reach back and throw 98-99 on every pitch anymore. He picks his spots, throws with control and keeps the hitters off balance. Ultimately the main job of any pitcher is to keep the hitters off-balance. Moyer & Maddux know that better than anyone. Maddux said in an old interview recently re-aired on FSNW that of all the components to pitching he valued shear velocity the least. Hitting spots, changing speeds and above all else late movement on his pitches were valued higher. Garcia was having much of his success earlier this year because he figured out if he took something off his fastball he got better movement. These are all learned traits, that a top flight pitching coach will teach. I have to wonder if we've given too much credit to BP when it was out outfield defense making guys like Franklin look good. If Meche was fixed in Tacoma maybe we need to look there again for a pitching coach. We still need to fix the outfield defense for Safeco. Kelly, I have to disagree with you on command as a talent, especially with your reference to RJ. Randy was as wild as they come until he sat down with Nolan Ryan and learned how to PITCH, not just throw. Command has everything to do with mental make up, preperation, and mechanics. Those are things a quality pitching coach can drive home with most any pitcher. Case in point, Leo Mazzonie(sp?) look at what he has done with pitchers year after year. This year’s prize, Jaret Wright. ERA 3.17, 3.84 BB’s/9 7.57 K’s/9 12-6 record in 25 starts. By far his best stats of his career. He’s always had the golden arm, but no one ever taught him how to pitch. What do you think he could do with Meche? Most pitchers early in their careers get by on talent if they have the stuff to do it. Pitchers who succeed over a long period of time actually learn how pitch. Randy doesn’t reach back and throw 98-99 on every pitch anymore. He picks his spots, throws with control and keeps the hitters off balance. Ultimately the main job of any pitcher is to keep the hitters off-balance. Moyer & Maddux know that better than anyone. Maddux said in an old interview recently re-aired on FSNW that of all the components to pitching he valued shear velocity the least. Hitting spots, changing speeds and above all else late movement on his pitches were valued higher. Garcia was having much of his success earlier this year because he figured out if he took something off his fastball he got better movement. These are all learned traits, that a top flight pitching coach will teach. I have to wonder if we’ve given too much credit to BP when it was out outfield defense making guys like Franklin look good. If Meche was fixed in Tacoma maybe we need to look there again for a pitching coach. We still need to fix the outfield defense for Safeco.

]]> By: Troy Sowden http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-143 Troy Sowden Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:47:20 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-143 Weird. I never knew that. I mean, I guess I can understand Coors lessening K's (since breaking balls don't break as much), or something like a bad hitter's backdrop increasing K's, I just never knew there was evidence that really played out. Do you know which parks seem to play more towards K's or BB's? Weird. I never knew that. I mean, I guess I can understand Coors lessening K’s (since breaking balls don’t break as much), or something like a bad hitter’s backdrop increasing K’s, I just never knew there was evidence that really played out. Do you know which parks seem to play more towards K’s or BB’s?

]]> By: Dave http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-142 Dave Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:44:59 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-142 Troy, Actually, some parks have shown a consistent trend towards decreasing or increasing walks and strikeouts. No one has any real good idea why, though, and the effect isn't going to be major in any sample of four starts. The comment about Meche's recent success being in four pitchers parks was more off-handed than anything else. I wasn't trying to imply that he hasn't pitched well, but simply pointing out that he's done it in some pretty friendly environments. Troy,

Actually, some parks have shown a consistent trend towards decreasing or increasing walks and strikeouts. No one has any real good idea why, though, and the effect isn’t going to be major in any sample of four starts. The comment about Meche’s recent success being in four pitchers parks was more off-handed than anything else. I wasn’t trying to imply that he hasn’t pitched well, but simply pointing out that he’s done it in some pretty friendly environments.

]]> By: Troy Sowden http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-141 Troy Sowden Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:27:58 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-141 Dave's right about Camden, and about the park factors. Here's the real question though Dave: As I implied above, Gil's improvement since being recalled is almost directly atributable to his (vastly) improved K/BB ratio. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't K/BB ratio tend to translate well into just about any park, pitcher's park or not? Dave’s right about Camden, and about the park factors. Here’s the real question though Dave: As I implied above, Gil’s improvement since being recalled is almost directly atributable to his (vastly) improved K/BB ratio. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t K/BB ratio tend to translate well into just about any park, pitcher’s park or not?

]]> By: Dave http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-140 Dave Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:02:11 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-140 Mark, No, they can't, because park factors include the numbers of the visiting team as well and are calculated by the difference in performance between both teams in a particular park and in other parks. The formula works, and the commonly accepted "wisdom" that Camden Yards is a hitters park is a fallacy. There's a lot more that goes into a park effect on run scoring than distance to the fences. It's pretty remarkable that Camden has gotten the reputation that it has in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. Mark,

No, they can’t, because park factors include the numbers of the visiting team as well and are calculated by the difference in performance between both teams in a particular park and in other parks. The formula works, and the commonly accepted “wisdom” that Camden Yards is a hitters park is a fallacy. There’s a lot more that goes into a park effect on run scoring than distance to the fences. It’s pretty remarkable that Camden has gotten the reputation that it has in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary.

]]> By: Chris W. http://www.ussmariner.com/2004/08/22/gil-meche/comment-page-2/#comment-139 Chris W. Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:56:12 +0000 http://ussmariner.com/?p=1784#comment-139 A lot of people seem to be ignoring that Meche has had two major shoulder surgeries in the past 3 years. I don't think there is a single pitcher that has ever come back to be successful in the long-term from such injuries / surgeries. So, yeah, it's a gamble whether Meche is going to be good going forward. But the real gamble is whether he's going to be healthy, and the way the Ms have been treating him, I'd bet against it. I give him a 50% chance of surviving next year at all... Bottom line... my gut says take the risk, if it's just 2 years, and it's just $2M/year, but only do it if (a) he finishes the rest of this season strong; and (b) you're willing to commit to letting him be a 180 inning/year guy until those injuries are way way back in the rear-view mirror. A lot of people seem to be ignoring that Meche has had two major shoulder surgeries in the past 3 years. I don’t think there is a single pitcher that has ever come back to be successful in the long-term from such injuries / surgeries. So, yeah, it’s a gamble whether Meche is going to be good going forward. But the real gamble is whether he’s going to be healthy, and the way the Ms have been treating him, I’d bet against it. I give him a 50% chance of surviving next year at all…

Bottom line… my gut says take the risk, if it’s just 2 years, and it’s just $2M/year, but only do it if (a) he finishes the rest of this season strong; and (b) you’re willing to commit to letting him be a 180 inning/year guy until those injuries are way way back in the rear-view mirror.

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