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	<title>Comments on: Texas paper: Millwood signs with Rangers</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: BelaXadux</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84753</link>
		<dc:creator>BelaXadux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2005 03:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84753</guid>
		<description>LF Monster in #85, I&#039;m with you on the lack of refinement in research on batted balls in play.  It&#039;s better than nothing, and in particular it indicates clearly the worth of Ks and BBs; it is far less clear in evaluating subtle differences in outcome based on pitcher-specfic movements on pitches which are a function of skill and hence repeatable.  Guys with low K/9s are inherently worth less, but _specific individuals_ with unique spin or motion may influence outcomes to a degree which _pitchers as a whole_ cannot.  The question isn&#039;t settled, and the differences are significant in evaluating someone like, say, Kenny Rogers.  

Millwood was going to cost a bundle to sign; that is the outcome here.  He&#039;d be nice to have, but I&#039;m not crying that the Ms didn&#039;t pay this particular price.  That someone conceived of Jarrod Washburn as a &#039;reasonable alternative&#039; makes me cry like Viga-Glum.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LF Monster in #85, I&#8217;m with you on the lack of refinement in research on batted balls in play.  It&#8217;s better than nothing, and in particular it indicates clearly the worth of Ks and BBs; it is far less clear in evaluating subtle differences in outcome based on pitcher-specfic movements on pitches which are a function of skill and hence repeatable.  Guys with low K/9s are inherently worth less, but _specific individuals_ with unique spin or motion may influence outcomes to a degree which _pitchers as a whole_ cannot.  The question isn&#8217;t settled, and the differences are significant in evaluating someone like, say, Kenny Rogers.  </p>
<p>Millwood was going to cost a bundle to sign; that is the outcome here.  He&#8217;d be nice to have, but I&#8217;m not crying that the Ms didn&#8217;t pay this particular price.  That someone conceived of Jarrod Washburn as a &#8216;reasonable alternative&#8217; makes me cry like Viga-Glum.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul B</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84682</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84682</guid>
		<description>I was mildly surprised that a team that is paying Alex to play for the Yankees would spring for a 5 year contract for a pitcher.

I realize that Millwood is not Park, but still, a pitcher is risky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was mildly surprised that a team that is paying Alex to play for the Yankees would spring for a 5 year contract for a pitcher.</p>
<p>I realize that Millwood is not Park, but still, a pitcher is risky.</p>
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		<title>By: scareduck</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84650</link>
		<dc:creator>scareduck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Dec 2005 04:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84650</guid>
		<description>90 - Dave, is FIP better or worse than DIPS at projecting future years&#039; ERAs?

95 - my bad, it&#039;s backwards; one of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/parkch01.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chan Ho Park&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; comps is Millwood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>90 &#8211; Dave, is FIP better or worse than DIPS at projecting future years&#8217; ERAs?</p>
<p>95 &#8211; my bad, it&#8217;s backwards; one of <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/parkch01.shtml" rel="nofollow">Chan Ho Park&#8217;s</a> comps is Millwood.</p>
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		<title>By: Mat</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84622</link>
		<dc:creator>Mat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84622</guid>
		<description>&quot;One of MillwoodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s comps is Chan Ho Park.&quot;

Did you follow the link you provided?  Chan Ho Park&#039;s name is nowhere to be found.  Similarly, in Millwood&#039;s list of PECOTA comps, Park is nowhere to be found.  They both signed multi-year deals with Texas, past that, I don&#039;t know that I&#039;d call them similar pitchers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One of MillwoodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s comps is Chan Ho Park.&#8221;</p>
<p>Did you follow the link you provided?  Chan Ho Park&#8217;s name is nowhere to be found.  Similarly, in Millwood&#8217;s list of PECOTA comps, Park is nowhere to be found.  They both signed multi-year deals with Texas, past that, I don&#8217;t know that I&#8217;d call them similar pitchers.</p>
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		<title>By: lokiforever</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84570</link>
		<dc:creator>lokiforever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84570</guid>
		<description>Just generally curious about the opening salvo that &quot;the chances that Millwood will, over the life of those contracts, be worth 2.5m more a year than Washburn approach 100%&quot;

Something happened in 2004 that made him worth only $7.0 Million for the 2005 season.  As stated earlier or on a separate thread, there are a lot of factors that one cannot predict (most notably injury) that can make a pitching contract worth it, or a bust over the whole term.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just generally curious about the opening salvo that &#8220;the chances that Millwood will, over the life of those contracts, be worth 2.5m more a year than Washburn approach 100%&#8221;</p>
<p>Something happened in 2004 that made him worth only $7.0 Million for the 2005 season.  As stated earlier or on a separate thread, there are a lot of factors that one cannot predict (most notably injury) that can make a pitching contract worth it, or a bust over the whole term.</p>
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		<title>By: mpbiggs</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84560</link>
		<dc:creator>mpbiggs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84560</guid>
		<description>Well said, #92.  If we could not get Millwood or Burnett, I would have been happier with several (cheap) (1-year only) question marks. How many 5-year contracts with pitchers work out well?  How many 4-year contracts?  When will GMs learn? Will I repeat that question every off-season until my head explodes? Only time will tell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, #92.  If we could not get Millwood or Burnett, I would have been happier with several (cheap) (1-year only) question marks. How many 5-year contracts with pitchers work out well?  How many 4-year contracts?  When will GMs learn? Will I repeat that question every off-season until my head explodes? Only time will tell.</p>
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		<title>By: Badperson</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84556</link>
		<dc:creator>Badperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84556</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know that I&#039;m especially disappointed.  The Washburn signing sucked, but I don&#039;t know that that means we should have dedicated 5 years 60m to Millwood.  If we were going to contend next year it might have been worth it, but in the absence of enough other moves to make this year count it probably would have been best to sign neither Millwood or Washburn, pick up a few question mark pitchers, and spending this year seeing what we got.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know that I&#8217;m especially disappointed.  The Washburn signing sucked, but I don&#8217;t know that that means we should have dedicated 5 years 60m to Millwood.  If we were going to contend next year it might have been worth it, but in the absence of enough other moves to make this year count it probably would have been best to sign neither Millwood or Washburn, pick up a few question mark pitchers, and spending this year seeing what we got.</p>
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		<title>By: terrybenish</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84541</link>
		<dc:creator>terrybenish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84541</guid>
		<description>Various.  Great, great thread.

Ã¢â‚¬ËœBoras goodwillÃ¢â‚¬â„¢  Texas is the ultimate repository of Boras Goodwill after the ARod deal..

&quot;Why do people assume that the 2006 Mariners are going to be above average defensively. With Betancourt, Beltre, and Ichiro, there are three good defensive players in the everyday line-up. I think ReedÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s average, maybe a little better. But left field is a hole, and Lopez isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t much to write home about at second. Sexson wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t very good at first base last year.&quot;  Dave, this is so, so cogent.  Could you do some relative evaluation weighted by position with comments at least at a division level?

&quot;Your guarantee is reckless. Bavasi may have heard of what Voros et al have looked at, but that doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mean heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s up on current research. For one example, Bavasi doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know about advanced defensive metrics different people are working on, like Davenport/MGL/etc.&quot;  Derek, would it be possible to project the 40 or 25 man roster, given the new contracts for two or three years, with guestimates on prospects accepted?  It seems so much of this is driven by bb&#039;s own contract and this is a poor man&#039;s Gillick doing a this year or bust, excepting the Washburn signing as due to his long term relationship.  Long winded way of saying this year may push the long term building of the club backward.  

There does not seem to be any standard screen to pick these people.  From a standard scouting perspective, in terms of &quot;tools&quot;, Washburn and Everett are far off their personal bests and far below any standard of good.  Some of the scouting screens might say warning about each of them, such as consistentcy of fastball, as in he touched 90 but was 87-88 most of the game...ip/games has declined.  For Everett, he&#039;s just plain fat and can&#039;t run any more...12 doubles 23 hrs is not going to be matched in this park...its perplexing cause the  numbers point to the same thing.  Why they would be signed, let alone at fairly rich levels in Everett&#039;s case and the Washburn levels screams of complete desperation and incompetence.

Lawton is a good signing and makes the Everett thing look even more strange, unless he ends up in cf... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Various.  Great, great thread.</p>
<p>Ã¢â‚¬ËœBoras goodwillÃ¢â‚¬â„¢  Texas is the ultimate repository of Boras Goodwill after the ARod deal..</p>
<p>&#8220;Why do people assume that the 2006 Mariners are going to be above average defensively. With Betancourt, Beltre, and Ichiro, there are three good defensive players in the everyday line-up. I think ReedÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s average, maybe a little better. But left field is a hole, and Lopez isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t much to write home about at second. Sexson wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t very good at first base last year.&#8221;  Dave, this is so, so cogent.  Could you do some relative evaluation weighted by position with comments at least at a division level?</p>
<p>&#8220;Your guarantee is reckless. Bavasi may have heard of what Voros et al have looked at, but that doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mean heÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s up on current research. For one example, Bavasi doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know about advanced defensive metrics different people are working on, like Davenport/MGL/etc.&#8221;  Derek, would it be possible to project the 40 or 25 man roster, given the new contracts for two or three years, with guestimates on prospects accepted?  It seems so much of this is driven by bb&#8217;s own contract and this is a poor man&#8217;s Gillick doing a this year or bust, excepting the Washburn signing as due to his long term relationship.  Long winded way of saying this year may push the long term building of the club backward.  </p>
<p>There does not seem to be any standard screen to pick these people.  From a standard scouting perspective, in terms of &#8220;tools&#8221;, Washburn and Everett are far off their personal bests and far below any standard of good.  Some of the scouting screens might say warning about each of them, such as consistentcy of fastball, as in he touched 90 but was 87-88 most of the game&#8230;ip/games has declined.  For Everett, he&#8217;s just plain fat and can&#8217;t run any more&#8230;12 doubles 23 hrs is not going to be matched in this park&#8230;its perplexing cause the  numbers point to the same thing.  Why they would be signed, let alone at fairly rich levels in Everett&#8217;s case and the Washburn levels screams of complete desperation and incompetence.</p>
<p>Lawton is a good signing and makes the Everett thing look even more strange, unless he ends up in cf&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84535</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84535</guid>
		<description>Millwood&#039;s Fielding Independant ERA: 3.77
Millwood&#039;s expected Fielding Independant ERA: 3.99

Yes, Millwood pitched over his head.  That&#039;s obvious.  

But if you think a FIP below 4 is a pumpkin, well, you&#039;ve got some pretty high standards.  Millwood&#039;s FIP was 5th best in the AL last year and his xFIP was 7th best.  

Millwood&#039;s not the best pitcher in the AL, and yes, there was a lot of luck (or non-repeatable skills, or whatever) involved in his winning the ERA title.  But he&#039;s so far from a pumpkin, it&#039;s not even funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Millwood&#8217;s Fielding Independant ERA: 3.77<br />
Millwood&#8217;s expected Fielding Independant ERA: 3.99</p>
<p>Yes, Millwood pitched over his head.  That&#8217;s obvious.  </p>
<p>But if you think a FIP below 4 is a pumpkin, well, you&#8217;ve got some pretty high standards.  Millwood&#8217;s FIP was 5th best in the AL last year and his xFIP was 7th best.  </p>
<p>Millwood&#8217;s not the best pitcher in the AL, and yes, there was a lot of luck (or non-repeatable skills, or whatever) involved in his winning the ERA title.  But he&#8217;s so far from a pumpkin, it&#8217;s not even funny.</p>
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		<title>By: scareduck</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2005/12/26/texas-paper-millwood-signs-with-rangers/comment-page-2/#comment-84532</link>
		<dc:creator>scareduck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=3230#comment-84532</guid>
		<description>Yo, Dave, I dig that, which is why I tell you that right behind Washburn in the list of overrated pitchers (as measured by DIPS) we find &lt;a href=&quot;http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?seasonType=2&amp;type=pitch5&amp;sort=DIPSratio&amp;split=0&amp;season=2005&amp;pos=all&amp;hand=a&amp;league=al&amp;ageMin=17&amp;ageMax=51&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kevin Millwood&lt;/a&gt;. He got immensely lucky; it won&#039;t happen again, and the betting money is that he&#039;ll be a pumpkin by the All Star break.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yo, Dave, I dig that, which is why I tell you that right behind Washburn in the list of overrated pitchers (as measured by DIPS) we find <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?seasonType=2&amp;type=pitch5&amp;sort=DIPSratio&amp;split=0&amp;season=2005&amp;pos=all&amp;hand=a&amp;league=al&amp;ageMin=17&amp;ageMax=51" rel="nofollow">Kevin Millwood</a>. He got immensely lucky; it won&#8217;t happen again, and the betting money is that he&#8217;ll be a pumpkin by the All Star break.</p>
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