Even though Edgar has a league award named after him, since he is the only one of that group who is retired, it doesn’t really separate him from the group. I think he falls just short. Pitchers are a different animal, so I’d not consider RJ (though he wins most valuable pitcher without debate). Griffey and A-Rod are really close, with Griffey getting more weight for length of service. I think I have to go with Alex to partially makeup for when A-Rod got edged out of the MVP in part because both Seattle writers voted for Griffey (Alex overplayed the humble part, deferring to Griffey as the better player.).

Since a worst ever is coming, can you break this (and that one) out by position? or manager, GM, owner?

From 1900 to 1920, the population of the US went from 76 million to 106 million people. Back then, only white guys were allowed to play. Now, the population of the US is about 295 million, and not only can Americans of all backgrounds play in MLB, but there are significant contingents of players from the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Cuba, Japan, etc. Also, during most of Wagner’s career, from what I can tell, the NL only had 8 teams. That means he had about 57% as many players to beat out to lead the league in something.

So, basically, back in Wagner’s day it was easier to lead the league in something. Wagner’s still great, but I think looking at the leaderboards from way back when will mislead you as to exactly how great he was when you’re comparing him to players of today.

For what it’s worth, reports of Wagner’s defense were stellar. In particular, many observers report that he could dig balls out of the ground with such alacrity that he would frequently fling a cloud of pebbles down to first along with the ball. Obviously personal accounts should be taken with many pebbles of salt, but he did play in the era of gloves like a handful of hot dogs, and pictures confirm that he was a physical freak, with long, long arms.

Also keep in mind that Wagner played 1887 games at short (and almost 900 games elsewhere), whereas ARod is about 600 games short at short — with presumably a thousand or so left to go.

If the Yankees had left him at short, I would be thinking seriously about ARod as the best ever at the position, but the fact is they did not. Wagner stands alone. I think Honus Wagner is the best player who ever lived, easily in the inner circle with Ruth and Cobb.

Edgar Martinez is another of my flawed heroes, my favorite Mariner ever, possibly the best hitter the M’s have ever had but clearly not the best player. He didn’t play defense. The most charitable point of view would be that he didn’t play BAD defense and thus hurt his team (like, say, Frank Thomas with the White Sox), but still–Griffey is still clearly far in front of him. I would be comfortable with a Randy vote too, though his early years were so erratic, and his best years, like ARod, were elsewhere.

Griffey.

Their translated stats (accounting for park factors and playing in different eras) from the Davenport Translation cards at Baseball Prospectus look like this:

Rodriguez: .306/.389/.596
Wagner: .312/.381/.566

In other words, it seems that, rate-wise, their offensive games are so similar, the difference almost certainly comes down to how well each played defense. It’s going to be awfully tough to make those comparisons, though, since I don’t know of anyone who’s actually seen Honus Wagner and Alex Rodriguez play defense. But up to this point in his career, A-Rod is definitely in the discussion of best SS ever.

But, if Alex Rodriguez never moves back to shortstop, it’s not even close in terms of career value, because Wagner played about 600 more games at SS than Rodriguez has. (Unless, like EC mentions, you remember that Wagner’s league wasn’t as tough, and you penalize Wagner pretty severely for that.)

I already voted, but if I did it again after contemplation, I would only vote for Edgar and Griffey- I think those two are head, if not shoulders, above the rest. And I would give the top spot to Edgar edging out Griffey. (Despite F-Rod’s proclamation that that makes me “quite lame” – I’ll live with that.)