<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Amateur Draft</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:59:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: BelaXadux</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-3/#comment-111270</link>
		<dc:creator>BelaXadux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111270</guid>
		<description>One further issue on velocity, in kinesiological studies with tennis players, it was identified that players with greater power on their serves had significantly greater arcs of rotation in their rearward shoulder revolution at the start of their motion.  Said another way, their shoulder joints flexed further back and toward their spine as they swung.  Hip rotation is surely very important, too, I don&#039;t mean to brush that off.  It&#039;s highly probable that the same is true for pitchers, and is part of the explanation for why some guys with smaller frames still get excellent velocity:  their shoulders rotate back and open better than typical pitchers, large or small.  

Re:  smaller power pitchers, there&#039;s the case of Steve Dalkowski to take warning by.  Widely held to be the hardest thrower of his time (the &#039;60s IIRC), he wasn&#039;t 5&#039;10.  He was also so incredibly wild that he never had a big league career.  (He was also severely alcoholic which factored into that, but.)  

And really what concerns me most about Lincecum is the terrible lack of control.  Injury risk aside, and it&#039;s hard to evaluate since he&#039;s an outlier, he&#039;s useless now, stuff or no.  Whoever d(r)afts him is betting the pick that his control can be refined to the point where he&#039;ll be effective in the Bigs.  Like Dave, I&#039;d rather make that bet in the bottom of the 1st round than at the top, and would really rather not make it at all.  I mean, you could probably pick up J. Affeldt from the Royals for a lot less, his upside and downsides are comparable to Tim&#039;s, and Affeldt has major league experience now, too.  Why spend a pick for that??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One further issue on velocity, in kinesiological studies with tennis players, it was identified that players with greater power on their serves had significantly greater arcs of rotation in their rearward shoulder revolution at the start of their motion.  Said another way, their shoulder joints flexed further back and toward their spine as they swung.  Hip rotation is surely very important, too, I don&#8217;t mean to brush that off.  It&#8217;s highly probable that the same is true for pitchers, and is part of the explanation for why some guys with smaller frames still get excellent velocity:  their shoulders rotate back and open better than typical pitchers, large or small.  </p>
<p>Re:  smaller power pitchers, there&#8217;s the case of Steve Dalkowski to take warning by.  Widely held to be the hardest thrower of his time (the &#8217;60s IIRC), he wasn&#8217;t 5&#8217;10.  He was also so incredibly wild that he never had a big league career.  (He was also severely alcoholic which factored into that, but.)  </p>
<p>And really what concerns me most about Lincecum is the terrible lack of control.  Injury risk aside, and it&#8217;s hard to evaluate since he&#8217;s an outlier, he&#8217;s useless now, stuff or no.  Whoever d(r)afts him is betting the pick that his control can be refined to the point where he&#8217;ll be effective in the Bigs.  Like Dave, I&#8217;d rather make that bet in the bottom of the 1st round than at the top, and would really rather not make it at all.  I mean, you could probably pick up J. Affeldt from the Royals for a lot less, his upside and downsides are comparable to Tim&#8217;s, and Affeldt has major league experience now, too.  Why spend a pick for that??</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-3/#comment-111269</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111269</guid>
		<description>#103: &lt;i&gt;Also (and I could be wrong on this), pitchers with longer fingers tend to get more movement on their pitches (I remember reading somewhere that Pedro has freakishly long fingers).&lt;/i&gt;

That seems as though it would be another area where you get more speed with the same rotational velocity.  Longer fingere means the ball is farther away from the wrist, so with longer you should be able to impart more spin to the ball from the same wrist action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#103: <i>Also (and I could be wrong on this), pitchers with longer fingers tend to get more movement on their pitches (I remember reading somewhere that Pedro has freakishly long fingers).</i></p>
<p>That seems as though it would be another area where you get more speed with the same rotational velocity.  Longer fingere means the ball is farther away from the wrist, so with longer you should be able to impart more spin to the ball from the same wrist action.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Choo</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-3/#comment-111268</link>
		<dc:creator>Choo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 07:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111268</guid>
		<description>103 - Pedro does have freakishly long fingers, and you are right about long, flexible fingers relating to pitch movement.  It&#039;s not the only determining factor, but it works for all the reasons you mentioned in reference to rotational velocity of the joint (wrist) and the distance between the wrist and the actual release point at the tips of his fingers.  The extra distance between Pedro&#039;s wrist and the tips of his fingers, in addition to extra surface coverage of the ball and laces allows him to increase the rate of spin on breaking pitches, cutters, and two-seamers.  

Think also of the height/long finger combo in reference to Randy Johnson&#039;s slider when he was at his peak.  The amount of movement he created with that pitch was almost surreal.

I believe the main (and perhaps the only) disatvantage to being a long and lanky pitcher is in regards to repeatable mechanics.  The same minor mechanical flaw in two pitchers will be slightly more exaggerated in the one who has more room between his joints*.  And the more &quot;off&quot; a pitcher is mechanically, the greater his chance of doing physical damage to his joints and tendons.  Add the greater energy transfer generated by the typical tall pitcher and you can see why shorter pitchers have a better track record of health.


*You can compare it to a golf swing from the tee box.  The PGA Tour consists mostly of a) tall, lanky guys (6&#039;1&quot;-6&#039;5&quot;) who excel at distance and b) short guys (5&#039;6&quot;-5&#039;10&quot;) who excel at control.  There aren&#039;t a lot of 6&#039; guys on the tour, which is odd when you consider 6&#039; is a pretty average height.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>103 &#8211; Pedro does have freakishly long fingers, and you are right about long, flexible fingers relating to pitch movement.  It&#8217;s not the only determining factor, but it works for all the reasons you mentioned in reference to rotational velocity of the joint (wrist) and the distance between the wrist and the actual release point at the tips of his fingers.  The extra distance between Pedro&#8217;s wrist and the tips of his fingers, in addition to extra surface coverage of the ball and laces allows him to increase the rate of spin on breaking pitches, cutters, and two-seamers.  </p>
<p>Think also of the height/long finger combo in reference to Randy Johnson&#8217;s slider when he was at his peak.  The amount of movement he created with that pitch was almost surreal.</p>
<p>I believe the main (and perhaps the only) disatvantage to being a long and lanky pitcher is in regards to repeatable mechanics.  The same minor mechanical flaw in two pitchers will be slightly more exaggerated in the one who has more room between his joints*.  And the more &#8220;off&#8221; a pitcher is mechanically, the greater his chance of doing physical damage to his joints and tendons.  Add the greater energy transfer generated by the typical tall pitcher and you can see why shorter pitchers have a better track record of health.</p>
<p>*You can compare it to a golf swing from the tee box.  The PGA Tour consists mostly of a) tall, lanky guys (6&#8217;1&#8243;-6&#8217;5&#8243;) who excel at distance and b) short guys (5&#8217;6&#8243;-5&#8217;10&#8243;) who excel at control.  There aren&#8217;t a lot of 6&#8242; guys on the tour, which is odd when you consider 6&#8242; is a pretty average height.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: theberle</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-3/#comment-111266</link>
		<dc:creator>theberle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 06:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111266</guid>
		<description>Sports drafts are just &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbspot.com/News/2005/12/end-sports-welfare.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sports welfare&lt;/a&gt;.

As far as pitching mechanics go, obviously the baseball doesn&#039;t travel in a pure arc, but each portion of the pitchers body (arm, forearm, wrist, fingers) that is longer allows the ball to travel faster tangentially with the same rotational velocity of the joint.  Add that to the closer release point, and greater downward angle of the pitch, and taller pitchers definitely have an advantage.

Of course, I wonder if the greater length of their arms might actually put more strain on their joints/muscles in some circumstances, since there&#039;s more torque on their joints.

Also (and I could be wrong on this), pitchers with longer fingers tend to get more movement on their pitches (I remember reading somewhere that Pedro has freakishly long fingers).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sports drafts are just <a href="http://www.bbspot.com/News/2005/12/end-sports-welfare.html" rel="nofollow">sports welfare</a>.</p>
<p>As far as pitching mechanics go, obviously the baseball doesn&#8217;t travel in a pure arc, but each portion of the pitchers body (arm, forearm, wrist, fingers) that is longer allows the ball to travel faster tangentially with the same rotational velocity of the joint.  Add that to the closer release point, and greater downward angle of the pitch, and taller pitchers definitely have an advantage.</p>
<p>Of course, I wonder if the greater length of their arms might actually put more strain on their joints/muscles in some circumstances, since there&#8217;s more torque on their joints.</p>
<p>Also (and I could be wrong on this), pitchers with longer fingers tend to get more movement on their pitches (I remember reading somewhere that Pedro has freakishly long fingers).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ConorGlassey</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-3/#comment-111259</link>
		<dc:creator>ConorGlassey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 05:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111259</guid>
		<description>Speaking of shorter guys having good velo, I read (Will Carroll, I believe) that velocity is directly related to the speed of one&#039;s hip rotation. He said that a pitching motion is pretty similar to a tennis serve and that Andy Roddick would have a hell of a fastball...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of shorter guys having good velo, I read (Will Carroll, I believe) that velocity is directly related to the speed of one&#8217;s hip rotation. He said that a pitching motion is pretty similar to a tennis serve and that Andy Roddick would have a hell of a fastball&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-3/#comment-111206</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111206</guid>
		<description>Gillick worked for the M&#039;s when he was hired by Philadelphia.  As a stipulation to let him take the Philly job, they didn&#039;t allow him to pilfer the organization.  If they fired Bavasi, there would be no such stipulation.  Also, Fontaine is pretty loyal, and it&#039;s not likely he would want to work for a club that just fired his friend.

Also, large framed (both tall and girthy) pitchers have historically had longer careers than short ones.  Even Nate Silver&#039;s PECOTA system thinks height is important.  It&#039;s not just scouts being stupid - body type does matter.  It doesn&#039;t mean its a deal breaker, as you can have a good pitcher without ideal body size, but all things being equal, you want the 6&#039;6 guy over the 5&#039;10 guy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gillick worked for the M&#8217;s when he was hired by Philadelphia.  As a stipulation to let him take the Philly job, they didn&#8217;t allow him to pilfer the organization.  If they fired Bavasi, there would be no such stipulation.  Also, Fontaine is pretty loyal, and it&#8217;s not likely he would want to work for a club that just fired his friend.</p>
<p>Also, large framed (both tall and girthy) pitchers have historically had longer careers than short ones.  Even Nate Silver&#8217;s PECOTA system thinks height is important.  It&#8217;s not just scouts being stupid &#8211; body type does matter.  It doesn&#8217;t mean its a deal breaker, as you can have a good pitcher without ideal body size, but all things being equal, you want the 6&#8217;6 guy over the 5&#8217;10 guy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-2/#comment-111042</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111042</guid>
		<description>#99: &lt;i&gt;A release point closer to the plate has nothing to do with velocity itself, but rather the Ã¢â‚¬Å“perception of velocityÃ¢â‚¬Â. &lt;/i&gt;
I didn&#039;t mean to say the closer release point resulted increased the velocity, though looking back at my post I can see where someone might think I was heading in that direction.

I was referring to perceived velocity.  A release point 2 feet closer to home plate reduces the hitters reaction time by a bit over 3%, which has the same effect as adding 3 mph to a fastball delivered from the further release point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#99: <i>A release point closer to the plate has nothing to do with velocity itself, but rather the Ã¢â‚¬Å“perception of velocityÃ¢â‚¬Â. </i><br />
I didn&#8217;t mean to say the closer release point resulted increased the velocity, though looking back at my post I can see where someone might think I was heading in that direction.</p>
<p>I was referring to perceived velocity.  A release point 2 feet closer to home plate reduces the hitters reaction time by a bit over 3%, which has the same effect as adding 3 mph to a fastball delivered from the further release point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JAS</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-2/#comment-111041</link>
		<dc:creator>JAS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111041</guid>
		<description>A release point closer to the plate has nothing to do with velocity itself, but rather the &quot;perception of velocity&quot;.  Be careful not to mix angular momentum with the simple definition of speed, which is how much time it takes to cover a given distance.  A ball released closer to the plate with an identical velocity to a ball released further from the plate will get there sooner, but since it takes less time to get there, the reaction time of the hitter is reducedd, and the effective velocity is increased.  The art of deception is studied hard for this same effect, but mastered by few.  

As pointed out in elswhere in this blog (recent thread?), a lot of pitchers get &quot;figured out&quot; and their effective velocity is greatly reduced because of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A release point closer to the plate has nothing to do with velocity itself, but rather the &#8220;perception of velocity&#8221;.  Be careful not to mix angular momentum with the simple definition of speed, which is how much time it takes to cover a given distance.  A ball released closer to the plate with an identical velocity to a ball released further from the plate will get there sooner, but since it takes less time to get there, the reaction time of the hitter is reducedd, and the effective velocity is increased.  The art of deception is studied hard for this same effect, but mastered by few.  </p>
<p>As pointed out in elswhere in this blog (recent thread?), a lot of pitchers get &#8220;figured out&#8221; and their effective velocity is greatly reduced because of it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gwangung</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-2/#comment-111040</link>
		<dc:creator>gwangung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111040</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; So were Bob Engle and Pat Gillick, going back to the Toronto days. Engle is still here and Pat wanted him in Philly. From what I read in the paper at the time of PatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s departure, Gillick wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t allowed to take any staff with him per Armstrong. Why would this be different for Bavasi-Fontaine under the same team president? &lt;/i&gt;

Different contracts could have different results.

And, I think Gillick left on his own, instead of being shoved out..that might make a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> So were Bob Engle and Pat Gillick, going back to the Toronto days. Engle is still here and Pat wanted him in Philly. From what I read in the paper at the time of PatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s departure, Gillick wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t allowed to take any staff with him per Armstrong. Why would this be different for Bavasi-Fontaine under the same team president? </i></p>
<p>Different contracts could have different results.</p>
<p>And, I think Gillick left on his own, instead of being shoved out..that might make a difference.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Thomsen</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/comment-page-2/#comment-111039</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Thomsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 01:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/06/02/amateur-draft/#comment-111039</guid>
		<description>Speaking of first-round draft picks ... Jeff Heaverlo just struck out Doyle.  Ugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of first-round draft picks &#8230; Jeff Heaverlo just struck out Doyle.  Ugh.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

