<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Graph for the holiday weekend</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:19:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: davepaisley</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154859</link>
		<dc:creator>davepaisley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 05:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154859</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to see the numbers vs a 3 year prior average as well as just the last season. 

Also, while the numbers correlate fairly well, it really looks like there are just three levels the &quot;market&quot; sees:

1) lowly regarded:  $15M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to see the numbers vs a 3 year prior average as well as just the last season. </p>
<p>Also, while the numbers correlate fairly well, it really looks like there are just three levels the &#8220;market&#8221; sees:</p>
<p>1) lowly regarded:  $15M</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154840</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 03:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154840</guid>
		<description>I think Beltre is/was a little different. His completed year prior to his signing was age 25. That&#039;s extremely young for a free agent, and is just when most players begin to enter their real prime.

Yes, likely that season carried more weight in contract talk than it should have. On the other hand, though, it was a much better indicator of likely performance than if, say, a 32 year old were to have a &quot;break out&quot; year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Beltre is/was a little different. His completed year prior to his signing was age 25. That&#8217;s extremely young for a free agent, and is just when most players begin to enter their real prime.</p>
<p>Yes, likely that season carried more weight in contract talk than it should have. On the other hand, though, it was a much better indicator of likely performance than if, say, a 32 year old were to have a &#8220;break out&#8221; year.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lisa gray</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154836</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 03:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154836</guid>
		<description>well, 

i sure do agree that it seems like teams are not really interested in defense when they evaluate a player, really, unless he is at short or center.

i think that it is true that most teams just look at last year&#039;s stats when they decide to go after a player. look at gary matthews. look at beltre (sorry.) but my astros are going to have exactly one great glove on the field next year - adam everett, who is simply awesome, and one OK glove, willy taveras, who is still trying to understand what a cutoff man is for. Mo Ensberg is very good, but you betcha they will finally dump him off on someone for a LOOGY. can&#039;t never have too many LOOGYs. you see mo is this terrible wussy who won&#039;t swing at ball 4 for some reason like real men do (see willy taveras) so he has to go cuz we can&#039;t have no guys like that on the team.

i think it is paying for home runs and basically ignoring everything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, </p>
<p>i sure do agree that it seems like teams are not really interested in defense when they evaluate a player, really, unless he is at short or center.</p>
<p>i think that it is true that most teams just look at last year&#8217;s stats when they decide to go after a player. look at gary matthews. look at beltre (sorry.) but my astros are going to have exactly one great glove on the field next year &#8211; adam everett, who is simply awesome, and one OK glove, willy taveras, who is still trying to understand what a cutoff man is for. Mo Ensberg is very good, but you betcha they will finally dump him off on someone for a LOOGY. can&#8217;t never have too many LOOGYs. you see mo is this terrible wussy who won&#8217;t swing at ball 4 for some reason like real men do (see willy taveras) so he has to go cuz we can&#8217;t have no guys like that on the team.</p>
<p>i think it is paying for home runs and basically ignoring everything else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mr. Egaas</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154832</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Egaas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 02:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154832</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny how Matthew&#039;s deal looks like a bargain, but then you think about it being Gary Matthews, Jr., and it&#039;s just funny again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny how Matthew&#8217;s deal looks like a bargain, but then you think about it being Gary Matthews, Jr., and it&#8217;s just funny again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: NBarnes</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154787</link>
		<dc:creator>NBarnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154787</guid>
		<description>I think I lost the thread of my comment above halfway through (it was late), but what I was trying to get at is that there&#039;s a lot of uncertainty involved in projecting players, both good and bad.  If we didn&#039;t have PECOTA, we&#039;d still be talking about what Soriano or Matthews is likely to do for their new teams next year.  And though it&#039;s both easy and correct to assume that most of the recently ZOMG signings will flop, it&#039;s also very possible that one or two will consolidate or establish new levels of performance.  Of course, paying for the &lt;i&gt;chance&lt;/i&gt; that Soriano really has established a new level of performance is pretty foolhardy, but there you go.

The other thing I was thinking is that there&#039;s pretty clearly a large performance gap between most of this year&#039;s position players and the truly elite players (though J.D. Drew is capable of performing at an elite level if his body holds up).  The smarter teams have probably been looking at this year&#039;s position free agents and quietly counting the years until Miguel Cabrera is a free agent.  Sure, he&#039;ll cost a bijillion dollars, but he&#039;s actually &lt;i&gt;worth&lt;/i&gt; a bijillion dollars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I lost the thread of my comment above halfway through (it was late), but what I was trying to get at is that there&#8217;s a lot of uncertainty involved in projecting players, both good and bad.  If we didn&#8217;t have PECOTA, we&#8217;d still be talking about what Soriano or Matthews is likely to do for their new teams next year.  And though it&#8217;s both easy and correct to assume that most of the recently ZOMG signings will flop, it&#8217;s also very possible that one or two will consolidate or establish new levels of performance.  Of course, paying for the <i>chance</i> that Soriano really has established a new level of performance is pretty foolhardy, but there you go.</p>
<p>The other thing I was thinking is that there&#8217;s pretty clearly a large performance gap between most of this year&#8217;s position players and the truly elite players (though J.D. Drew is capable of performing at an elite level if his body holds up).  The smarter teams have probably been looking at this year&#8217;s position free agents and quietly counting the years until Miguel Cabrera is a free agent.  Sure, he&#8217;ll cost a bijillion dollars, but he&#8217;s actually <i>worth</i> a bijillion dollars.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gomez</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154751</link>
		<dc:creator>Gomez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154751</guid>
		<description>My guess is that teams are overvaluing what a certain player brings to a lineup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My guess is that teams are overvaluing what a certain player brings to a lineup.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154749</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154749</guid>
		<description>w/r/t NBarnes&#039; comment, one of the things we need to get away from in baseball analysis is over-reliance on PECOTA or any projection system as a validator of player performance. They&#039;re all guesses at what  a player might do, and PECOTA attempts to do some really good things with confidence levels.

But a player who exceeds their PECOTA projection, or collapses under it, doesn&#039;t mean either that the player broke the system, or that their season was a fluke.

For instance, given three high-risk, high-reward pitching prospects, PECOTA&#039;s going to take a dim view of their future (with, possibly, a great potential return). If one of them has a great season the next year and the other two blow out their shoulders, that doesn&#039;t mean
a) the dim view wasn&#039;t justified for all three
b) that it missed on all three pitchers

The next year, if you ran PECOTA for all three again, the one who took a step forward will look a lot better than his previous forecast +1 year.

PECOTA, and all projection systems to different extents, say &quot;based on a set of data, this is what I think the player will do next year, and beyond that.&quot;

Raul Ibanez, for instance, busted out of his projections. I don&#039;t think that makes PECOTA&#039;s statement &quot;based on my comparison to historical players through baseball, Ibanez&#039;s performance seems likely to tail off&quot;  any less valid. We can&#039;t look at projection systems as the voice of destiny.

I think I&#039;ve gone away from my original point now.

I will say, though, that without a survey of PECOTA&#039;s accuracy, the system seems to either nail the projection or miss way high or way low.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>w/r/t NBarnes&#8217; comment, one of the things we need to get away from in baseball analysis is over-reliance on PECOTA or any projection system as a validator of player performance. They&#8217;re all guesses at what  a player might do, and PECOTA attempts to do some really good things with confidence levels.</p>
<p>But a player who exceeds their PECOTA projection, or collapses under it, doesn&#8217;t mean either that the player broke the system, or that their season was a fluke.</p>
<p>For instance, given three high-risk, high-reward pitching prospects, PECOTA&#8217;s going to take a dim view of their future (with, possibly, a great potential return). If one of them has a great season the next year and the other two blow out their shoulders, that doesn&#8217;t mean<br />
a) the dim view wasn&#8217;t justified for all three<br />
b) that it missed on all three pitchers</p>
<p>The next year, if you ran PECOTA for all three again, the one who took a step forward will look a lot better than his previous forecast +1 year.</p>
<p>PECOTA, and all projection systems to different extents, say &#8220;based on a set of data, this is what I think the player will do next year, and beyond that.&#8221;</p>
<p>Raul Ibanez, for instance, busted out of his projections. I don&#8217;t think that makes PECOTA&#8217;s statement &#8220;based on my comparison to historical players through baseball, Ibanez&#8217;s performance seems likely to tail off&#8221;  any less valid. We can&#8217;t look at projection systems as the voice of destiny.</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;ve gone away from my original point now.</p>
<p>I will say, though, that without a survey of PECOTA&#8217;s accuracy, the system seems to either nail the projection or miss way high or way low.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154742</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154742</guid>
		<description>Hey....I&#039;ve been fine-tuning a spreadsheet trying to gain an appreciation of what replacement level would be and the value of being average. Would anyone buy that VORP for a league average leftfielder in the NL and AL would be roughly 25 and 20 respectively over 600 PA?  Basically being league average would equate to 2 to 2.5 wins over replacement offensively at that position...  

Looking at all positions, just being league average offensively seems to mean 1 to 1.5 wins for premium defensive positions like CF,SS,and 2B, roughly 2 to 2.5 wins for the corner positions and surprisingly (to me anyway), 3 wins over replacement for catcher.

So looking at DMZ&#039;s chart above, the going rate for just being average offensively at a corner position could translate into anywhere from $2M to $10M annually. Considering that defense is absent in the correlation above, an average offensive player (whose in the minus defensive runs range could be dramatically overvalued). I guess, duh, but i think the way DMZ is trying to model the FA market is neat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey&#8230;.I&#8217;ve been fine-tuning a spreadsheet trying to gain an appreciation of what replacement level would be and the value of being average. Would anyone buy that VORP for a league average leftfielder in the NL and AL would be roughly 25 and 20 respectively over 600 PA?  Basically being league average would equate to 2 to 2.5 wins over replacement offensively at that position&#8230;  </p>
<p>Looking at all positions, just being league average offensively seems to mean 1 to 1.5 wins for premium defensive positions like CF,SS,and 2B, roughly 2 to 2.5 wins for the corner positions and surprisingly (to me anyway), 3 wins over replacement for catcher.</p>
<p>So looking at DMZ&#8217;s chart above, the going rate for just being average offensively at a corner position could translate into anywhere from $2M to $10M annually. Considering that defense is absent in the correlation above, an average offensive player (whose in the minus defensive runs range could be dramatically overvalued). I guess, duh, but i think the way DMZ is trying to model the FA market is neat.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: scraps</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154734</link>
		<dc:creator>scraps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154734</guid>
		<description>What Derek is saying is not that people are judging defense differently, he&#039;s saying the evidence semes to indicate they&#039;re scarcely taking it into account at all.  You&#039;ll pay about the same for the same offensive contribution, regardless of defense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Derek is saying is not that people are judging defense differently, he&#8217;s saying the evidence semes to indicate they&#8217;re scarcely taking it into account at all.  You&#8217;ll pay about the same for the same offensive contribution, regardless of defense.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Snow</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/comment-page-1/#comment-154733</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/24/graph-for-the-holiday-weekend/#comment-154733</guid>
		<description>For the current offseason, the points you make about the graph are interesting observations. The sample&#039;s obviously too small to really be sure what&#039;s going on, though.

Extending back into the past would be interesting. For example, taking &quot;overall ability has mattered less than last yearâ€™s stat line,&quot; you reach very different conclusions about the accuracy of this hypothesis if you considered two Mariners who signed the same offseason, Sexson and Beltre.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the current offseason, the points you make about the graph are interesting observations. The sample&#8217;s obviously too small to really be sure what&#8217;s going on, though.</p>
<p>Extending back into the past would be interesting. For example, taking &#8220;overall ability has mattered less than last yearâ€™s stat line,&#8221; you reach very different conclusions about the accuracy of this hypothesis if you considered two Mariners who signed the same offseason, Sexson and Beltre.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

