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	<title>Comments on: On bullpen usage</title>
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	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175780</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175780</guid>
		<description>Mike&#039;s history of relief can be found in his archives:
http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/2004_02.html
http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/2004_01.html
(and probably earlier).

Unfortunately, all his links are broken.  He used to blog at all-baseball.com, and now blogs at baseballtoaster.com .  His URLs did not remap.

It&#039;s a great series if you want to take the time to read them (and if someone wants to post the actually URLs).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike&#8217;s history of relief can be found in his archives:<br />
<a href="http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/2004_02.html" rel="nofollow">http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/2004_02.html</a><br />
<a href="http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/2004_01.html" rel="nofollow">http://mikesrants.baseballtoaster.com/archives/2004_01.html</a><br />
(and probably earlier).</p>
<p>Unfortunately, all his links are broken.  He used to blog at all-baseball.com, and now blogs at baseballtoaster.com .  His URLs did not remap.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a great series if you want to take the time to read them (and if someone wants to post the actually URLs).</p>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175775</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175775</guid>
		<description>I think it would take about 5 minutes to learn the redzones by heart, or heck, put them up in the bullpen.  Get the darn relievers excited about how important they are treated.  

They are no different to learn than NFL coaches looking at their charts as to when to go for 1 or 2 points.

The tougher part is the warmup. It takes 2-3 batters to warm up, so you can be in a blue zone, the ace warms up, it&#039;s now a redzone, and by the time he is ready, it&#039;s a no-leverage situation.

What would be nice to know is how often Goose and Rollie were warmed up in the 7th/8th innings, only to never enter the game.  Those games are not &quot;on the books&quot;, but the 9th inning 4-run lead that Rivera enters are accounted for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would take about 5 minutes to learn the redzones by heart, or heck, put them up in the bullpen.  Get the darn relievers excited about how important they are treated.  </p>
<p>They are no different to learn than NFL coaches looking at their charts as to when to go for 1 or 2 points.</p>
<p>The tougher part is the warmup. It takes 2-3 batters to warm up, so you can be in a blue zone, the ace warms up, it&#8217;s now a redzone, and by the time he is ready, it&#8217;s a no-leverage situation.</p>
<p>What would be nice to know is how often Goose and Rollie were warmed up in the 7th/8th innings, only to never enter the game.  Those games are not &#8220;on the books&#8221;, but the 9th inning 4-run lead that Rivera enters are accounted for.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175591</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175591</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s early in the season and when you look at who is sitting at 3rd worst WPA on that list, you know you&#039;re dealing with Small Sample Theater.  But looking at past years, there&#039;s a fair smattering of &quot;closers&quot; high on the leverage list... and in fact, there&#039;s a pretty strong correlation between that and teams that are perceived to be well-managed in general.  

The trouble with using a stat like this is that it&#039;s way too computation-intensive for any manager sitting in a dugout.  Until we reach an era when there&#039;s a guy with a laptop sitting next to him (or whispering into his headset), LI just isn&#039;t going to be used in real time in a game situation.  However, even as casual fans we instinctively recognize high leverage situations, and they should be obvious to a good/experienced manager even without supporting calculations.  In fact, you could argue that LI is a way for those of us with less experience to arrive at the same conclusion that any &quot;smart old baseball guy&quot; gets from his gut.  So when we see a manager apparently oblivious to these situations, or reacting to them inappropriately, we can conclude his gut, however large it may be, is failing him.  When he does this repeatedly, we can conclude he&#039;s incapable of managing a pitching staff effectively in game situations. We might even be able to come up with a numerical ranking of managers according to how well they use relievers in high leverage situations.  And I think we all know who would be dwelling near the bottom of such a list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s early in the season and when you look at who is sitting at 3rd worst WPA on that list, you know you&#8217;re dealing with Small Sample Theater.  But looking at past years, there&#8217;s a fair smattering of &#8220;closers&#8221; high on the leverage list&#8230; and in fact, there&#8217;s a pretty strong correlation between that and teams that are perceived to be well-managed in general.  </p>
<p>The trouble with using a stat like this is that it&#8217;s way too computation-intensive for any manager sitting in a dugout.  Until we reach an era when there&#8217;s a guy with a laptop sitting next to him (or whispering into his headset), LI just isn&#8217;t going to be used in real time in a game situation.  However, even as casual fans we instinctively recognize high leverage situations, and they should be obvious to a good/experienced manager even without supporting calculations.  In fact, you could argue that LI is a way for those of us with less experience to arrive at the same conclusion that any &#8220;smart old baseball guy&#8221; gets from his gut.  So when we see a manager apparently oblivious to these situations, or reacting to them inappropriately, we can conclude his gut, however large it may be, is failing him.  When he does this repeatedly, we can conclude he&#8217;s incapable of managing a pitching staff effectively in game situations. We might even be able to come up with a numerical ranking of managers according to how well they use relievers in high leverage situations.  And I think we all know who would be dwelling near the bottom of such a list.</p>
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		<title>By: tangotiger</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175579</link>
		<dc:creator>tangotiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175579</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the links!

I also recommend the Fangraphs leaderboards for LI, as noted in the above comment.  In The Book, I showed how the LI for the closer should be in the 2.1 to 2.3 range, not the 1.7-1.9 that is the norm.  Percival was the only one used close to optimal in 99-02.  (Of course, just looking at a few games in 2007 won&#039;t be enough.)  The basic thing is to stop the 3+ run lead appearances in the 9th, and introduce 8th inning situations.  If we&#039;re looking for LI situations of 2.0 or higher, then there are plenty of situations where the LI is 3.0 and above for your ace to come into:
http://www.insidethebook.com/li.shtml#16

As well, Mike&#039;s Baseball Rants had a great series on reliever usage.  I&#039;ll look for it tonight, but you can try finding it on baseballtoaster.com .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the links!</p>
<p>I also recommend the Fangraphs leaderboards for LI, as noted in the above comment.  In The Book, I showed how the LI for the closer should be in the 2.1 to 2.3 range, not the 1.7-1.9 that is the norm.  Percival was the only one used close to optimal in 99-02.  (Of course, just looking at a few games in 2007 won&#8217;t be enough.)  The basic thing is to stop the 3+ run lead appearances in the 9th, and introduce 8th inning situations.  If we&#8217;re looking for LI situations of 2.0 or higher, then there are plenty of situations where the LI is 3.0 and above for your ace to come into:<br />
<a href="http://www.insidethebook.com/li.shtml#16" rel="nofollow">http://www.insidethebook.com/li.shtml#16</a></p>
<p>As well, Mike&#8217;s Baseball Rants had a great series on reliever usage.  I&#8217;ll look for it tonight, but you can try finding it on baseballtoaster.com .</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175571</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175571</guid>
		<description>I honestly think Hargrove doesn&#039;t know the groundball/flyball numbers for his relievers -- or he knows but he just doesn&#039;t believe they&#039;re meaningful, because he thinks a pitcher can induce a groundball in a given situation just by trying.  I mean, we have &lt;a href=&quot;http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/11/leadership-deceived/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;that quote from last year&lt;/a&gt; where he said he brought Mateo in to get a groundball, when Mateo was the least likely pitcher in all of baseball to achieve that.  Now, it could be he thinks the GB/FB stats are bunk and reflect random variation when the pitcher isn&#039;t &quot;trying&quot; one way or the other... but if that&#039;s the case, then he shouldn&#039;t be looking at matchups either because the same reasoning applies (especially since the sample size on matchups is smaller).  Honestly, I don&#039;t know what (if anything) he&#039;s thinking, and I&#039;m sick of trying.&lt;blockquote&gt;IMHO, what will change this is when closers become the generally accepted â€œbest relief pitcherâ€ (many times the case now), and thus a â€œrally killer.â€ This will end up replacing the closer and the save concept. Think â€œmen left on baseâ€ (from a previous pitcher.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;Yeah, this kills me.  Theoretically you could have a guy come in every game with three men on, give up an XBH so all three score, then get the remaining out(s) -- and he could do this every game, all season, losing game after game, and still end up with an ERA of 0.00.  Yeah, I know ERA is bogus as a predictive stat but here it completely blows as a performance measurement altogether.  Sure, there are other stats that would capture what Mateo-esque suckitude this represents, but still -- what number factors into contract talks and fan conversation (and the thinking of managers like Hargrove)?

Getting back to the original discussion, I will note that if you look at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&amp;stats=rel&amp;lg=all&amp;qual=n&amp;type=0&amp;season=2007&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fangraphs leaderboard&lt;/a&gt; and sort by pLI, the top of the list is heavily dominated by &quot;closers.&quot;  Which -- I think -- suggests they generally are being used correctly, even if it&#039;s by accident.  (In this regard it&#039;s interesting to compare Jones and Zumaya: though Jones has a higher ERA, he is also higher in pLI and WPA).  And what Mariner reliever has the most negative WPA? (The astonishing thing is that he&#039;s only the 13th worst).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly think Hargrove doesn&#8217;t know the groundball/flyball numbers for his relievers &#8212; or he knows but he just doesn&#8217;t believe they&#8217;re meaningful, because he thinks a pitcher can induce a groundball in a given situation just by trying.  I mean, we have <a href="http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/11/leadership-deceived/" rel="nofollow">that quote from last year</a> where he said he brought Mateo in to get a groundball, when Mateo was the least likely pitcher in all of baseball to achieve that.  Now, it could be he thinks the GB/FB stats are bunk and reflect random variation when the pitcher isn&#8217;t &#8220;trying&#8221; one way or the other&#8230; but if that&#8217;s the case, then he shouldn&#8217;t be looking at matchups either because the same reasoning applies (especially since the sample size on matchups is smaller).  Honestly, I don&#8217;t know what (if anything) he&#8217;s thinking, and I&#8217;m sick of trying.<br />
<blockquote>IMHO, what will change this is when closers become the generally accepted â€œbest relief pitcherâ€ (many times the case now), and thus a â€œrally killer.â€ This will end up replacing the closer and the save concept. Think â€œmen left on baseâ€ (from a previous pitcher.)</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, this kills me.  Theoretically you could have a guy come in every game with three men on, give up an XBH so all three score, then get the remaining out(s) &#8212; and he could do this every game, all season, losing game after game, and still end up with an ERA of 0.00.  Yeah, I know ERA is bogus as a predictive stat but here it completely blows as a performance measurement altogether.  Sure, there are other stats that would capture what Mateo-esque suckitude this represents, but still &#8212; what number factors into contract talks and fan conversation (and the thinking of managers like Hargrove)?</p>
<p>Getting back to the original discussion, I will note that if you look at the <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&amp;stats=rel&amp;lg=all&amp;qual=n&amp;type=0&amp;season=2007" rel="nofollow">Fangraphs leaderboard</a> and sort by pLI, the top of the list is heavily dominated by &#8220;closers.&#8221;  Which &#8212; I think &#8212; suggests they generally are being used correctly, even if it&#8217;s by accident.  (In this regard it&#8217;s interesting to compare Jones and Zumaya: though Jones has a higher ERA, he is also higher in pLI and WPA).  And what Mariner reliever has the most negative WPA? (The astonishing thing is that he&#8217;s only the 13th worst).</p>
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		<title>By: carcinogen</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175568</link>
		<dc:creator>carcinogen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 11:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175568</guid>
		<description>Check it,

This from a Bill Simmons chat session:



&lt;blockquote&gt;Craig (Kalamazoo, Michigan):: As a Tiger fan, how long do I have to wait untill I get to see Zumaya with the closing job?

Bill Simmons: It&#039;s completely illogical. It makes no sense. He&#039;s the best reliever on the team, but the 3rd-best reliever (Jones) closes games. My buddy Hench and I whine about this all the time because we have Zumaya on our AL team -- when Jones blew the KC game this week, we were going nuts. If you&#039;re the Royals, who would you rather face in the 9th -- 103 MPH throwing unhittable Zumaya, or a guy who looks like he was just signed from a semi-pro beer league? It makes no sense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Could this be the example of giving the &quot;closer&quot; job to a veteran just to have a name attached, but then using your relief ace (Zumaya) as your real stopper...hmm....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check it,</p>
<p>This from a Bill Simmons chat session:</p>
<blockquote><p>Craig (Kalamazoo, Michigan):: As a Tiger fan, how long do I have to wait untill I get to see Zumaya with the closing job?</p>
<p>Bill Simmons: It&#8217;s completely illogical. It makes no sense. He&#8217;s the best reliever on the team, but the 3rd-best reliever (Jones) closes games. My buddy Hench and I whine about this all the time because we have Zumaya on our AL team &#8212; when Jones blew the KC game this week, we were going nuts. If you&#8217;re the Royals, who would you rather face in the 9th &#8212; 103 MPH throwing unhittable Zumaya, or a guy who looks like he was just signed from a semi-pro beer league? It makes no sense.</p></blockquote>
<p>Could this be the example of giving the &#8220;closer&#8221; job to a veteran just to have a name attached, but then using your relief ace (Zumaya) as your real stopper&#8230;hmm&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Tuomas</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175376</link>
		<dc:creator>Tuomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175376</guid>
		<description>In addition to the Braves and Tigers, I&#039;d like to throw the Padres into the mix.  Cla Meredith may be the best non-Jake-Peavy pitcher they have.    Also, what about the Indians?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to the Braves and Tigers, I&#8217;d like to throw the Padres into the mix.  Cla Meredith may be the best non-Jake-Peavy pitcher they have.    Also, what about the Indians?</p>
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		<title>By: Baker rumors, other nonsense</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-2/#comment-175320</link>
		<dc:creator>Baker rumors, other nonsense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175320</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the closer tag is here to stay.  Rivera retiring will help, since there don&#039;t seem to be as many &quot;name brand&quot; closers.  

IMHO, what will change this is when closers become the generally accepted &quot;best relief pitcher&quot; (many times the case now), and thus a &quot;rally killer.&quot;  This will end up replacing the closer and the save concept.  Think &quot;men left on base&quot; (from a previous pitcher.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the closer tag is here to stay.  Rivera retiring will help, since there don&#8217;t seem to be as many &#8220;name brand&#8221; closers.  </p>
<p>IMHO, what will change this is when closers become the generally accepted &#8220;best relief pitcher&#8221; (many times the case now), and thus a &#8220;rally killer.&#8221;  This will end up replacing the closer and the save concept.  Think &#8220;men left on base&#8221; (from a previous pitcher.)</p>
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		<title>By: Spanky</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-1/#comment-175319</link>
		<dc:creator>Spanky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 02:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175319</guid>
		<description>Saving a pitcher for the 9th makes him LESS available than if you used him when the situation warranted.  If I have the flexibility to bring in my &quot;closer&quot; whenever the game was at a critical juncture, that gives me the ability to bring him in at any moment from the 7th inning on.  This doesn&#039;t mean you&#039;re going to pitch him for 3 innings and burn him out for 3 days.  You may only have him pitch 3-4-5 outs and then bring in someone else.  That ways he&#039;s still available the following day if needed.

If you save a &quot;closer&quot; for the 9th only, you may not ever need him because the game is out of reach or the team is behind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saving a pitcher for the 9th makes him LESS available than if you used him when the situation warranted.  If I have the flexibility to bring in my &#8220;closer&#8221; whenever the game was at a critical juncture, that gives me the ability to bring him in at any moment from the 7th inning on.  This doesn&#8217;t mean you&#8217;re going to pitch him for 3 innings and burn him out for 3 days.  You may only have him pitch 3-4-5 outs and then bring in someone else.  That ways he&#8217;s still available the following day if needed.</p>
<p>If you save a &#8220;closer&#8221; for the 9th only, you may not ever need him because the game is out of reach or the team is behind.</p>
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		<title>By: Spanky</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/comment-page-1/#comment-175318</link>
		<dc:creator>Spanky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 01:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/on-bullpen-usage/#comment-175318</guid>
		<description>If the 9th were unique for hitters and thus, they&#039;re somehow better in the 9th...and if I were the manager...I would instruct all of my hitters to approach EVERY inning as the 9th inning!  I would have the best team in the league!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the 9th were unique for hitters and thus, they&#8217;re somehow better in the 9th&#8230;and if I were the manager&#8230;I would instruct all of my hitters to approach EVERY inning as the 9th inning!  I would have the best team in the league!</p>
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