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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts From Last Night&#8217;s Game</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: SpokaneMsFan</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-5/#comment-208827</link>
		<dc:creator>SpokaneMsFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208827</guid>
		<description>Colm, thanks for those links, that was very interesting</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colm, thanks for those links, that was very interesting</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-5/#comment-208825</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208825</guid>
		<description>#200: after the moron in #&#039;s 195 and 196, you really have no excuse....  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#200: after the moron in #&#8217;s 195 and 196, you really have no excuse&#8230;.  <img src='http://www.ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brian Rust</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208824</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Rust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208824</guid>
		<description>Dammit, it&#039;s those greater than/less than symbols.

=BINOMDIST(hits,ab,avg,TRUE) gives you the probability of the lower tail

=1-BINOMDIST(hits,ab,avg,TRUE) gives you the probability of the upper tail  

Sorry about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dammit, it&#8217;s those greater than/less than symbols.</p>
<p>=BINOMDIST(hits,ab,avg,TRUE) gives you the probability of the lower tail</p>
<p>=1-BINOMDIST(hits,ab,avg,TRUE) gives you the probability of the upper tail  </p>
<p>Sorry about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Rust</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208823</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Rust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208823</guid>
		<description>arbeck,

Actually, the Excel formula for the binomial probability distribution is a more elegant way to do it:

=BINOMDIST(,,,TRUE) gives you the probability of the lower tail

=1-BINOMDIST(,,,TRUE) gives you the probability of the upper tail  

The probability of 227 (or fewer) hits in 750 ABs for a â€œtrueâ€ .331 hitter = BINOMDIST(227,750,.331,TRUE) = .0528.  If Ichiro hits less than .303 over 750 ABs, the probability of it being merely random is 5.3%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>arbeck,</p>
<p>Actually, the Excel formula for the binomial probability distribution is a more elegant way to do it:</p>
<p>=BINOMDIST(,,,TRUE) gives you the probability of the lower tail</p>
<p>=1-BINOMDIST(,,,TRUE) gives you the probability of the upper tail  </p>
<p>The probability of 227 (or fewer) hits in 750 ABs for a â€œtrueâ€ .331 hitter = BINOMDIST(227,750,.331,TRUE) = .0528.  If Ichiro hits less than .303 over 750 ABs, the probability of it being merely random is 5.3%.</p>
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		<title>By: Mat</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208822</link>
		<dc:creator>Mat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208822</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So, yeah, a seasonâ€™s worth of data might not be perfect, but itâ€™s a) better than a monthâ€™s worth, and b) better than waiting for five more years worth of data if you need to make a decision about next yearâ€™s results.&lt;/i&gt;

But you can probably also do better with taking a season&#039;s worth of data, considering the player&#039;s performance before that year, and adding in some regression to the mean.  That&#039;s basically what PECOTA and all the other player forecast systems do.  (I would also argue that&#039;s basically what all talent evaluators do.)

It sort of goes back to the distinction between value and skill.  If a player hits .300/.400/.500 over 600 PA, there&#039;s value in that.  But if there are underlying reasons to believe his skill level won&#039;t allow him continue to do that, then you might say that he was lucky over those 600 PA.  Going forward, you expect more skilled players to be more valuable than less skilled players, but when assessing past performance, it is possible that over a 600 PA time frame, the less skilled player happened to be more valuable than the more skilled player, thanks to luck or other things outside the players&#039; control.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that if all you care about is past value, then you don&#039;t need to bother worrying about whether or not a player was lucky.  If you want to know about future value, though, knowing whether or not a player was lucky in the past is important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So, yeah, a seasonâ€™s worth of data might not be perfect, but itâ€™s a) better than a monthâ€™s worth, and b) better than waiting for five more years worth of data if you need to make a decision about next yearâ€™s results.</i></p>
<p>But you can probably also do better with taking a season&#8217;s worth of data, considering the player&#8217;s performance before that year, and adding in some regression to the mean.  That&#8217;s basically what PECOTA and all the other player forecast systems do.  (I would also argue that&#8217;s basically what all talent evaluators do.)</p>
<p>It sort of goes back to the distinction between value and skill.  If a player hits .300/.400/.500 over 600 PA, there&#8217;s value in that.  But if there are underlying reasons to believe his skill level won&#8217;t allow him continue to do that, then you might say that he was lucky over those 600 PA.  Going forward, you expect more skilled players to be more valuable than less skilled players, but when assessing past performance, it is possible that over a 600 PA time frame, the less skilled player happened to be more valuable than the more skilled player, thanks to luck or other things outside the players&#8217; control.</p>
<p>Which is a long-winded way of saying that if all you care about is past value, then you don&#8217;t need to bother worrying about whether or not a player was lucky.  If you want to know about future value, though, knowing whether or not a player was lucky in the past is important.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Power</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208821</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Power</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208821</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That means that over the short-term you can see some marginal players do some fantastic things. Think about guys who have thrown no-hitters and then had their career vanish out from under them.&lt;/i&gt;

Bobo Holloman.  Pitched a no-hitter in his first career start, played only 1 season (not surprisingly):
K/9: 3.44
BB/9: 6.89
FIP: 5.17

&quot;This game would prove to be one of only three major league wins that Holloman achieved, against seven losses, all in 1953. Bill Veeck, then-owner of the Browns, in his autobiography described the 27 outs of Holloman&#039;s no-hitter as consisting of hard-hit ground balls, screaming line drives, and deep fly balls.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That means that over the short-term you can see some marginal players do some fantastic things. Think about guys who have thrown no-hitters and then had their career vanish out from under them.</i></p>
<p>Bobo Holloman.  Pitched a no-hitter in his first career start, played only 1 season (not surprisingly):<br />
K/9: 3.44<br />
BB/9: 6.89<br />
FIP: 5.17</p>
<p>&#8220;This game would prove to be one of only three major league wins that Holloman achieved, against seven losses, all in 1953. Bill Veeck, then-owner of the Browns, in his autobiography described the 27 outs of Holloman&#8217;s no-hitter as consisting of hard-hit ground balls, screaming line drives, and deep fly balls.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208820</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208820</guid>
		<description>#139: to be fair, it is kinda long...  :-)

For what it&#039;s worth, Charlie Hough had at least 6 seasons in his 25 year major league career where his K/9 was below 5. He only pitched 17 innings in one of those seasons and roughly 925 over the other 5. Here&#039;s those 6 seasons in the context of his career:

career: 216-216; K/9: 5.59; BB/9: 3.94; ERA: 3.75; FIP: 4.72;

K/9 less than 5.00: 45-52; K/9: 4.53; BB/9: 4.30; ERA: 4.42; FIP: 5.21;

K/9 grater than 5.00: 171-164; K/9: 5.95; BB/9: 3.83; ERA: 3.59; FIP: 4.38;

I think most people would take the Hough that had a K/9 greater than 5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#139: to be fair, it is kinda long&#8230;  <img src='http://www.ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, Charlie Hough had at least 6 seasons in his 25 year major league career where his K/9 was below 5. He only pitched 17 innings in one of those seasons and roughly 925 over the other 5. Here&#8217;s those 6 seasons in the context of his career:</p>
<p>career: 216-216; K/9: 5.59; BB/9: 3.94; ERA: 3.75; FIP: 4.72;</p>
<p>K/9 less than 5.00: 45-52; K/9: 4.53; BB/9: 4.30; ERA: 4.42; FIP: 5.21;</p>
<p>K/9 grater than 5.00: 171-164; K/9: 5.95; BB/9: 3.83; ERA: 3.59; FIP: 4.38;</p>
<p>I think most people would take the Hough that had a K/9 greater than 5.</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208819</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208819</guid>
		<description>#139: to be fair, it is kinda long...  :-)

For what it&#039;s worth, Charlie Hough had at least 6 seasons in his 25 year major league career where his K/9 was below 5. He only pitched 17 innings in one of those seasons and roughly 925 over the other 5. Here&#039;s those 6 seasons in the context of his career:

career: 216-216; K/9: 5.59; BB/9: 3.94; ERA: 3.75; FIP: 4.72;

K/95.00: 171-164; K/9: 5.95; BB/9: 3.83; ERA: 3.59; FIP: 4.38;

I think most people would take the Hough that had a K/9 greater than 5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#139: to be fair, it is kinda long&#8230;  <img src='http://www.ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, Charlie Hough had at least 6 seasons in his 25 year major league career where his K/9 was below 5. He only pitched 17 innings in one of those seasons and roughly 925 over the other 5. Here&#8217;s those 6 seasons in the context of his career:</p>
<p>career: 216-216; K/9: 5.59; BB/9: 3.94; ERA: 3.75; FIP: 4.72;</p>
<p>K/95.00: 171-164; K/9: 5.95; BB/9: 3.83; ERA: 3.59; FIP: 4.38;</p>
<p>I think most people would take the Hough that had a K/9 greater than 5.</p>
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		<title>By: eponymous coward</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208818</link>
		<dc:creator>eponymous coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208818</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I know itâ€™s automatic to beat on Jeff Weaver â€” even Steve Kelly has milked it for one of his depressing columns. Iâ€™ve actually grown fond of the guy. I mean, heâ€™s a TOTAL punk, been a chronic underachiever, refuses to submit to AAA rehab and then goes out and pitches some quality games despite his electronic lynching in the media. He actually pitched pretty well Sunday considering the Detroit opposition which made me nostalgic for the old Junior-Edgar-Buhner wrecking squad. It was a Kamikazee mission made worse by a wretched Mariner defensive effort. Give the guy a break!&lt;/i&gt;

Well, he has a major league job despite some of the crappiest performances in MLB history. And he&#039;s going to get paid 8 million to do it, regardless of whether or not he succeeds or fails from this point onwards. I&#039;d say that&#039;s a pretty big break.

Weaver has allowed close to 150 runs in his last 200 IP (outside of the playoffs). His K rates are cratering from his days in Detroit, and his velocity is around 88-90. I think he&#039;s coasting  on the fumes of when he had decent stuff the same way Pineiro is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I know itâ€™s automatic to beat on Jeff Weaver â€” even Steve Kelly has milked it for one of his depressing columns. Iâ€™ve actually grown fond of the guy. I mean, heâ€™s a TOTAL punk, been a chronic underachiever, refuses to submit to AAA rehab and then goes out and pitches some quality games despite his electronic lynching in the media. He actually pitched pretty well Sunday considering the Detroit opposition which made me nostalgic for the old Junior-Edgar-Buhner wrecking squad. It was a Kamikazee mission made worse by a wretched Mariner defensive effort. Give the guy a break!</i></p>
<p>Well, he has a major league job despite some of the crappiest performances in MLB history. And he&#8217;s going to get paid 8 million to do it, regardless of whether or not he succeeds or fails from this point onwards. I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s a pretty big break.</p>
<p>Weaver has allowed close to 150 runs in his last 200 IP (outside of the playoffs). His K rates are cratering from his days in Detroit, and his velocity is around 88-90. I think he&#8217;s coasting  on the fumes of when he had decent stuff the same way Pineiro is.</p>
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		<title>By: JeffS</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/comment-page-4/#comment-208817</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/17/thoughts-from-last-nights-game/#comment-208817</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s my imagination, but doesn&#039;t it seem like the Angels have had a far easier schedule up until this point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s my imagination, but doesn&#8217;t it seem like the Angels have had a far easier schedule up until this point?</p>
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