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	<title>Comments on: Jocketty and LaRussa</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: RoopRoopRoop</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237683</link>
		<dc:creator>RoopRoopRoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237683</guid>
		<description>Clearly the in-game decisions that LaRussa brings to the table would be a clear upgrade over McLaren.

Would we likely see LaRussa or Girardi managing any differently than they did in the NL? Is there a such thing as an NL manager vs. AL Manager? It seems a good manager would manage with what he&#039;s given. It seems the M&#039;s as a 4-cylindar, powerless machine should have played more station to station/motion baseball. The M&#039;s have given it lipservice but not done it. Would a LaRussa or Girardi bring a style or change their style to meet the roster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly the in-game decisions that LaRussa brings to the table would be a clear upgrade over McLaren.</p>
<p>Would we likely see LaRussa or Girardi managing any differently than they did in the NL? Is there a such thing as an NL manager vs. AL Manager? It seems a good manager would manage with what he&#8217;s given. It seems the M&#8217;s as a 4-cylindar, powerless machine should have played more station to station/motion baseball. The M&#8217;s have given it lipservice but not done it. Would a LaRussa or Girardi bring a style or change their style to meet the roster.</p>
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		<title>By: eponymous coward</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237664</link>
		<dc:creator>eponymous coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237664</guid>
		<description>Well, the upside to it would be Duncan has a very good record of extracting performance from pitchers- something the Mariners don&#039;t really have a record of doing (see: Meche, Gil, and KC correcting some mechanics). I think &quot;establish the fastball&quot; might go by the wayside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the upside to it would be Duncan has a very good record of extracting performance from pitchers- something the Mariners don&#8217;t really have a record of doing (see: Meche, Gil, and KC correcting some mechanics). I think &#8220;establish the fastball&#8221; might go by the wayside.</p>
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		<title>By: bermanator</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237584</link>
		<dc:creator>bermanator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237584</guid>
		<description>Dave-

I may not be phrasing this clearly, so let me know if this makes no sense.

Of the above five teams, I&#039;m least surprised at Tampa Bay and Toronto, simply because the alternative would be to try to beat the Yankees and Red Sox at their own game. Texas was so bad at doing things the &quot;traditional way&quot; that it made it easy to sell a new approach. I&#039;m not as familiar with the NL teams, so I don&#039;t know the story there.

While I may be oversimplifying things with the benefit of hindsight, the three AL teams were in a situation that encouraged a paradigm shift in terms of organizational development. The old way clearly wasn&#039;t working, and any good businessman uses that situation to go back to the drawing board and see if there&#039;s a better approach to try.

Do you think that Seattle&#039;s management is in the same place right now where it realizes it needs a systematic change? Or do you think they are more likely to think that they just need to keep on doing what they&#039;re doing, only better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave-</p>
<p>I may not be phrasing this clearly, so let me know if this makes no sense.</p>
<p>Of the above five teams, I&#8217;m least surprised at Tampa Bay and Toronto, simply because the alternative would be to try to beat the Yankees and Red Sox at their own game. Texas was so bad at doing things the &#8220;traditional way&#8221; that it made it easy to sell a new approach. I&#8217;m not as familiar with the NL teams, so I don&#8217;t know the story there.</p>
<p>While I may be oversimplifying things with the benefit of hindsight, the three AL teams were in a situation that encouraged a paradigm shift in terms of organizational development. The old way clearly wasn&#8217;t working, and any good businessman uses that situation to go back to the drawing board and see if there&#8217;s a better approach to try.</p>
<p>Do you think that Seattle&#8217;s management is in the same place right now where it realizes it needs a systematic change? Or do you think they are more likely to think that they just need to keep on doing what they&#8217;re doing, only better?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237582</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237582</guid>
		<description>You&#039;d have said the exact same thing before Tampa Bay hired Andrew Friedman, Arizona hired Josh Byrnes, Texas hired Jon Daniels, Toronto hired J.P. Ricciardi, or Los Angeles hired Paul DePodesta.  All of these organizations were run by traditional managers and had a history of ignoring statistical analysis, but then turned their teams over to a young, first time general manager and let them reshape the organization. 

You can argue that you don&#039;t think it will happen.  You can&#039;t argue that it has no chance of happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;d have said the exact same thing before Tampa Bay hired Andrew Friedman, Arizona hired Josh Byrnes, Texas hired Jon Daniels, Toronto hired J.P. Ricciardi, or Los Angeles hired Paul DePodesta.  All of these organizations were run by traditional managers and had a history of ignoring statistical analysis, but then turned their teams over to a young, first time general manager and let them reshape the organization. </p>
<p>You can argue that you don&#8217;t think it will happen.  You can&#8217;t argue that it has no chance of happening.</p>
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		<title>By: fetish</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237580</link>
		<dc:creator>fetish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237580</guid>
		<description>I think the opportunity cost argument is a non-starter.

If Howard Lincoln et al haven&#039;t heard of &quot;statistical analysis&quot; at this point (and let&#039;s not forget, he&#039;s the head of a corporation that could measure it&#039;s revenue in relationship to billions of dollars) then we&#039;re clearly sunk and even the most conservative owner would have fired him years ago.

Lincoln and the board are clearly aware of the different &#039;types&#039; of GM available - a hire of LaRussa/Jocketty would indicate that they are eschewing a statistics-based approach. It&#039;s not as if Billy Bean&#039;s twin brother is the alternative to Jocketty - the alternative is a guy who (also) fits into the M&#039;s culture.

As long as Lincoln and the Mariner&#039;s board maintain this viewpoint, there is no &#039;opportunity cost&#039; to hiring a scouting-based managerial staff, because they&#039;re simply not going to hire someone who&#039;s views are not in line with the board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the opportunity cost argument is a non-starter.</p>
<p>If Howard Lincoln et al haven&#8217;t heard of &#8220;statistical analysis&#8221; at this point (and let&#8217;s not forget, he&#8217;s the head of a corporation that could measure it&#8217;s revenue in relationship to billions of dollars) then we&#8217;re clearly sunk and even the most conservative owner would have fired him years ago.</p>
<p>Lincoln and the board are clearly aware of the different &#8216;types&#8217; of GM available &#8211; a hire of LaRussa/Jocketty would indicate that they are eschewing a statistics-based approach. It&#8217;s not as if Billy Bean&#8217;s twin brother is the alternative to Jocketty &#8211; the alternative is a guy who (also) fits into the M&#8217;s culture.</p>
<p>As long as Lincoln and the Mariner&#8217;s board maintain this viewpoint, there is no &#8216;opportunity cost&#8217; to hiring a scouting-based managerial staff, because they&#8217;re simply not going to hire someone who&#8217;s views are not in line with the board.</p>
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		<title>By: Teej</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237578</link>
		<dc:creator>Teej</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237578</guid>
		<description>66: Sig Mejdal was the statistical analysis part of Sam Walker&#039;s attempt to win the Tout Wars league in the book &quot;Fantasyland.&quot; Never thought I&#039;d see his name again, but that&#039;s awesome. I forgot he got hired by the Cards.

That&#039;s a fun read, by the way, for any of you guys who are into roto stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>66: Sig Mejdal was the statistical analysis part of Sam Walker&#8217;s attempt to win the Tout Wars league in the book &#8220;Fantasyland.&#8221; Never thought I&#8217;d see his name again, but that&#8217;s awesome. I forgot he got hired by the Cards.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a fun read, by the way, for any of you guys who are into roto stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: julian</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237576</link>
		<dc:creator>julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237576</guid>
		<description>I was at a statistics conference a couple of years ago and heard a presentation by a guy who&#039;d been hired by the Cards to do statistical analysis (name was something like Sig Mejdal).  He said that the front office was pro-Moneyball, but someone asked him about in-game tactics and he pretty much said that they didn&#039;t have much influence over the guys making on-the-field decisions, i.e. Tony LaRussa didn&#039;t really buy into their methods.  

On a side note, the guy expressed bemusement at the fact that &quot;Someone wrote a book detailing exactly how to win more games and run a team more efficiently, but only a few teams seem to care.&quot;  The Mariners, obviously, are NOT one of those teams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was at a statistics conference a couple of years ago and heard a presentation by a guy who&#8217;d been hired by the Cards to do statistical analysis (name was something like Sig Mejdal).  He said that the front office was pro-Moneyball, but someone asked him about in-game tactics and he pretty much said that they didn&#8217;t have much influence over the guys making on-the-field decisions, i.e. Tony LaRussa didn&#8217;t really buy into their methods.  </p>
<p>On a side note, the guy expressed bemusement at the fact that &#8220;Someone wrote a book detailing exactly how to win more games and run a team more efficiently, but only a few teams seem to care.&#8221;  The Mariners, obviously, are NOT one of those teams.</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237572</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 05:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237572</guid>
		<description>FWIW, La Russa last month:

&quot;If Dave Duncan gets a better deal to become pitching coach somewhere else, I&#039;m happy for him.&quot;

&quot;If Walt&#039;s got something better out there, I would say, &#039;You do whatever&#039;s best for you.&#039; I&#039;ve told the coaches that. If you&#039;ve got something better, the loyalty card is really a bad card to play if you have respect for somebody and are friends with them.&quot;

Duncan is under contract through 2008 and said Saturday that he has given little thought to his or La Russa&#039;s status.

&quot;If things change, then I&#039;ll have something to think about,&quot; Duncan said Saturday. &quot;But I really don&#039;t see any reason to think about that now.&quot;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, La Russa last month:</p>
<p>&#8220;If Dave Duncan gets a better deal to become pitching coach somewhere else, I&#8217;m happy for him.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;If Walt&#8217;s got something better out there, I would say, &#8216;You do whatever&#8217;s best for you.&#8217; I&#8217;ve told the coaches that. If you&#8217;ve got something better, the loyalty card is really a bad card to play if you have respect for somebody and are friends with them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Duncan is under contract through 2008 and said Saturday that he has given little thought to his or La Russa&#8217;s status.</p>
<p>&#8220;If things change, then I&#8217;ll have something to think about,&#8221; Duncan said Saturday. &#8220;But I really don&#8217;t see any reason to think about that now.&#8221;"</p>
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		<title>By: Wishhiker</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237571</link>
		<dc:creator>Wishhiker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 05:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237571</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed a long section of LaRussa&#039;s Managerial career with the Athletics.  What I recall is that he understands statistics much better than the present choices of the M&#039;s have shown that they do.  LaRussa would have figured out ways to get Jones starting 3-5 days a week.  He understands and uses matchups much more than McLaren/Hargrove have/do.

Old School read stats too, just not as many.

I don&#039;t think he&#039;s a bad idea to replace McLaren, as long as he&#039;s happy to do so under Antonetti.

I don&#039;t know much about Duncan beyond some of those things (well, I guess all now)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed a long section of LaRussa&#8217;s Managerial career with the Athletics.  What I recall is that he understands statistics much better than the present choices of the M&#8217;s have shown that they do.  LaRussa would have figured out ways to get Jones starting 3-5 days a week.  He understands and uses matchups much more than McLaren/Hargrove have/do.</p>
<p>Old School read stats too, just not as many.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s a bad idea to replace McLaren, as long as he&#8217;s happy to do so under Antonetti.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know much about Duncan beyond some of those things (well, I guess all now)</p>
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		<title>By: firova2</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/comment-page-2/#comment-237570</link>
		<dc:creator>firova2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 05:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/09/19/jocketty-and-larussa/#comment-237570</guid>
		<description>Dave Duncan and LaRussa are basically joined at the hip, though with Duncan&#039;s son on the Cardinal roster that may not now be the case. I would like to see an analysis of Duncan and what he would bring to this staff. Some say LaRussa/Duncan burn up pitchers, others that Duncan is some kind of miracle worker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave Duncan and LaRussa are basically joined at the hip, though with Duncan&#8217;s son on the Cardinal roster that may not now be the case. I would like to see an analysis of Duncan and what he would bring to this staff. Some say LaRussa/Duncan burn up pitchers, others that Duncan is some kind of miracle worker.</p>
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