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	<title>Comments on: Mitchell Report</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-5/#comment-245571</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245571</guid>
		<description>Can we start another topic to talk about the Haren trade?  I&#039;m all steeroided out at the moment, and would like to put this topic behind me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we start another topic to talk about the Haren trade?  I&#8217;m all steeroided out at the moment, and would like to put this topic behind me.</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-5/#comment-245569</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 04:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245569</guid>
		<description>well, good, because the Pres sez we should just put the steeroideera behind us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, good, because the Pres sez we should just put the steeroideera behind us.</p>
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		<title>By: JMHawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-5/#comment-245567</link>
		<dc:creator>JMHawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 03:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245567</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Fehr seemed almost pissed and under pressure at the same time...&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah, I&#039;d guess that Fehr is pretty P.O&#039;d and that the way this was handled will really complicate the process of actually solving the problem.  The Player&#039;s Union is the key - they have to sign on to any real testing program and punishment schedule.  If I were representing the player&#039;s (and realized something was inevitable given the scrutiny), I would want to negotiate for three main things:  amnesty, confidentiality, and a combination due process/benefit of the doubt.  

Amnesty - what happened years ago happened years ago, and lots of people are responsible, so nothing good would come from punishing guys who juiced years ago.

Confidentiality - No one should have his name officially associated with PEDs except when absolutely necessary.  E.g., if he tests positive, appeals and wins the appeal, no one ever knows (call this the Travis Henry rule if you want).  The only time the public hears someone&#039;s name is when they have exhausted the appeals process and begin their suspension/penalty, etc.  Otherwise, it&#039;s treated like medical information and treated like HIPPA.  

Due process/benefit of the doubt - hearsay, speculation and one-off test results are not sufficient to punish a player.  

This report spectacularly violates every single one of those points.  Okay, enough.  I&#039;m all done bagging on Mitchell and Selig and this stupid fiasco.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Fehr seemed almost pissed and under pressure at the same time&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Yeah, I&#8217;d guess that Fehr is pretty P.O&#8217;d and that the way this was handled will really complicate the process of actually solving the problem.  The Player&#8217;s Union is the key &#8211; they have to sign on to any real testing program and punishment schedule.  If I were representing the player&#8217;s (and realized something was inevitable given the scrutiny), I would want to negotiate for three main things:  amnesty, confidentiality, and a combination due process/benefit of the doubt.  </p>
<p>Amnesty &#8211; what happened years ago happened years ago, and lots of people are responsible, so nothing good would come from punishing guys who juiced years ago.</p>
<p>Confidentiality &#8211; No one should have his name officially associated with PEDs except when absolutely necessary.  E.g., if he tests positive, appeals and wins the appeal, no one ever knows (call this the Travis Henry rule if you want).  The only time the public hears someone&#8217;s name is when they have exhausted the appeals process and begin their suspension/penalty, etc.  Otherwise, it&#8217;s treated like medical information and treated like HIPPA.  </p>
<p>Due process/benefit of the doubt &#8211; hearsay, speculation and one-off test results are not sufficient to punish a player.  </p>
<p>This report spectacularly violates every single one of those points.  Okay, enough.  I&#8217;m all done bagging on Mitchell and Selig and this stupid fiasco.</p>
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		<title>By: jlc</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-5/#comment-245563</link>
		<dc:creator>jlc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245563</guid>
		<description>Any Tom Toles fans? Here&#039;s his take.

http://www.gocomics.com/tomtoles/2007/12/14/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any Tom Toles fans? Here&#8217;s his take.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gocomics.com/tomtoles/2007/12/14/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gocomics.com/tomtoles/2007/12/14/</a></p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-5/#comment-245561</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245561</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So Iâ€™m a little curious now. Back a decade or so when offensive numbers were starting to take off one of the explanations mentioned was the â€œjuiced ball.â€ Were a lot of people in the know back then and the â€œjuiced ballâ€ was really just a euphemism for â€œjuiced players?â€&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/13/home-run-surge-at-the-start-of-the-steroids-era/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Derek had a pretty good take on this&lt;/a&gt; over at his Cheater&#039;s Guide site:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
-there was a home run surge at the same time as steroids started to come into the game, but the surge in large part was not due to steroids
- itâ€™s possible that the huge surge in home runs actually drew attention away from the spread of steroids: after all, if the most prominent players having power surges were clean (and not at all the classic bulky muscle-bound guy we think of as suspects), then itâ€™s hard to look at any specific cases, or team, and see a new factor
- because baseball had seen corked bats, rabbit balls, and the other causes before, those were the causes they speculated about.  
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
He also &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/03/07/bobby-valentine-on-managing-during-the-rise-of-steroids/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;notes, via comments from Bobby Valentine&lt;/a&gt;, that at least some smart people in the game didn&#039;t immediately realize what was going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So Iâ€™m a little curious now. Back a decade or so when offensive numbers were starting to take off one of the explanations mentioned was the â€œjuiced ball.â€ Were a lot of people in the know back then and the â€œjuiced ballâ€ was really just a euphemism for â€œjuiced players?â€</i></p>
<p><a href="http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/05/13/home-run-surge-at-the-start-of-the-steroids-era/" rel="nofollow">Derek had a pretty good take on this</a> over at his Cheater&#8217;s Guide site:</p>
<blockquote><p>
-there was a home run surge at the same time as steroids started to come into the game, but the surge in large part was not due to steroids<br />
- itâ€™s possible that the huge surge in home runs actually drew attention away from the spread of steroids: after all, if the most prominent players having power surges were clean (and not at all the classic bulky muscle-bound guy we think of as suspects), then itâ€™s hard to look at any specific cases, or team, and see a new factor<br />
- because baseball had seen corked bats, rabbit balls, and the other causes before, those were the causes they speculated about.
</p></blockquote>
<p>He also <a href="http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/03/07/bobby-valentine-on-managing-during-the-rise-of-steroids/" rel="nofollow">notes, via comments from Bobby Valentine</a>, that at least some smart people in the game didn&#8217;t immediately realize what was going on.</p>
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		<title>By: gwangung</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-5/#comment-245559</link>
		<dc:creator>gwangung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245559</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; Hey, and guess what - steroids also help improve visual acuity and are a treatment for an array of eye ailments. Iâ€™m guessing no one has done a study on healthy people (would be pretty unethical to say the least given the long-term complications) but thereâ€™s some anecdotal evidence: 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512 &lt;/blockquote&gt;

OK, now THAT is what I was asking for (and thank you!). That articles details how, why, where steroids could help and estimates (and in a way where we can see where the fiddle marks are) what the effects were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> Hey, and guess what &#8211; steroids also help improve visual acuity and are a treatment for an array of eye ailments. Iâ€™m guessing no one has done a study on healthy people (would be pretty unethical to say the least given the long-term complications) but thereâ€™s some anecdotal evidence: </p>
<p><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512" rel="nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512</a> </p></blockquote>
<p>OK, now THAT is what I was asking for (and thank you!). That articles details how, why, where steroids could help and estimates (and in a way where we can see where the fiddle marks are) what the effects were.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Snow</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-4/#comment-245558</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245558</guid>
		<description>More like two decades now, the explanation is associated particularly with the year 1987. Home runs spiked dramatically that year (when McGwire set the rookie HR record, incidentally), then fell back to a lower level the next year. As a temporary phenomenon involving a lot of players - Wade Boggs breaking 20 HRs - it&#039;s generally thought that the ball was indeed different that year, and attributing it mostly to steroids would leave a lot of unanswered questions. So no, it wasn&#039;t purely a euphemism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More like two decades now, the explanation is associated particularly with the year 1987. Home runs spiked dramatically that year (when McGwire set the rookie HR record, incidentally), then fell back to a lower level the next year. As a temporary phenomenon involving a lot of players &#8211; Wade Boggs breaking 20 HRs &#8211; it&#8217;s generally thought that the ball was indeed different that year, and attributing it mostly to steroids would leave a lot of unanswered questions. So no, it wasn&#8217;t purely a euphemism.</p>
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		<title>By: 6-4-3</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-4/#comment-245557</link>
		<dc:creator>6-4-3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245557</guid>
		<description>So I&#039;m a little curious now.  Back a decade or so when offensive numbers were starting to take off one of the explanations mentioned was the &quot;juiced ball.&quot;  Were a lot of people in the know back then and the &quot;juiced ball&quot; was really just a euphemism for &quot;juiced players?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I&#8217;m a little curious now.  Back a decade or so when offensive numbers were starting to take off one of the explanations mentioned was the &#8220;juiced ball.&#8221;  Were a lot of people in the know back then and the &#8220;juiced ball&#8221; was really just a euphemism for &#8220;juiced players?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Max Power</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-4/#comment-245556</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Power</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245556</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The suggestion would be that the better home run percentage stems from plate discipline.&lt;/i&gt;

Hey, and guess what - steroids also help improve visual acuity and are a treatment for an array of eye ailments.  I&#039;m guessing no one has done a study on healthy people (would be pretty unethical to say the least given the long-term complications) but there&#039;s some anecdotal evidence:  

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

&quot;More on confidence: &quot;Game of Shadows&quot; reports that performance enhancers improved Bonds&#039; eyesight, helping him track pitches. Coincidence? Not necessarily. Extra bat speed means extra time to differentiate between a fastball and a slider.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The suggestion would be that the better home run percentage stems from plate discipline.</i></p>
<p>Hey, and guess what &#8211; steroids also help improve visual acuity and are a treatment for an array of eye ailments.  I&#8217;m guessing no one has done a study on healthy people (would be pretty unethical to say the least given the long-term complications) but there&#8217;s some anecdotal evidence:  </p>
<p><a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512" rel="nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512</a></p>
<p>&#8220;More on confidence: &#8220;Game of Shadows&#8221; reports that performance enhancers improved Bonds&#8217; eyesight, helping him track pitches. Coincidence? Not necessarily. Extra bat speed means extra time to differentiate between a fastball and a slider.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave in Palo Alto</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/comment-page-4/#comment-245555</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave in Palo Alto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/12/13/mitchell-report/#comment-245555</guid>
		<description>183 -- I disagree with you that HR/PA is the better metric for judging Bonds.  The suggestion would be that the better home run percentage stems from plate discipline.

But in his age 39 year, Bonds had 120 intentional walks.  Aaron had 13.  Intentional walks tell you nothing quantitative or qualitative about a hitter&#039;s power, except inferentially that the recipient of the IBB(Bonds is that all time leader) has substantial power (in his age 39 season).  Take out the IBB&#039;s and the difference between the Bonds and Aaron even with respect to PA&#039;s is even more stark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>183 &#8212; I disagree with you that HR/PA is the better metric for judging Bonds.  The suggestion would be that the better home run percentage stems from plate discipline.</p>
<p>But in his age 39 year, Bonds had 120 intentional walks.  Aaron had 13.  Intentional walks tell you nothing quantitative or qualitative about a hitter&#8217;s power, except inferentially that the recipient of the IBB(Bonds is that all time leader) has substantial power (in his age 39 season).  Take out the IBB&#8217;s and the difference between the Bonds and Aaron even with respect to PA&#8217;s is even more stark.</p>
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