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	<title>Comments on: McLaren uses numbers on hitters</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: OscarTehGrouch</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254098</link>
		<dc:creator>OscarTehGrouch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 21:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254098</guid>
		<description>Am I the only once who noticed that McLaren is spelled wrong in the blog title?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I the only once who noticed that McLaren is spelled wrong in the blog title?</p>
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		<title>By: Kouvre</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254096</link>
		<dc:creator>Kouvre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 18:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254096</guid>
		<description>41

Lay off AJ, he&#039;s just been SO excited to be an Oriole that it&#039;s worn the poor guy out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>41</p>
<p>Lay off AJ, he&#8217;s just been SO excited to be an Oriole that it&#8217;s worn the poor guy out.</p>
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		<title>By: thefin190</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254094</link>
		<dc:creator>thefin190</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254094</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;All pitchers enjoy tremendous leverage on two strike counts excluding the only truly â€œevenâ€ count(full count) and this is true even for guys like Rick White and HoRam.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Really? Rick White managed to get an 0-2 count?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>All pitchers enjoy tremendous leverage on two strike counts excluding the only truly â€œevenâ€ count(full count) and this is true even for guys like Rick White and HoRam.</p></blockquote>
<p>Really? Rick White managed to get an 0-2 count?</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254093</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 06:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254093</guid>
		<description>All pitchers enjoy tremendous leverage on two strike counts excluding the only truly &quot;even&quot; count(full count) and this is true even for guys like Rick White and HoRam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All pitchers enjoy tremendous leverage on two strike counts excluding the only truly &#8220;even&#8221; count(full count) and this is true even for guys like Rick White and HoRam.</p>
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		<title>By: Breadbaker</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254092</link>
		<dc:creator>Breadbaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 06:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254092</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s some great analysis in the Bill James Gold Mine (for which Mat Olkin did a lot of the statistical work) about how Craig Biggio&#039;s postseason failures weren&#039;t a fluke.  Rather, in his entire career, Biggio had feasted off bad pitchers and had performed poorly against good ones.  Thus, when he got to the postseason, he performed exactly as expected, only he was facing the competition he couldn&#039;t dominate.  

And with Biggio, of course, weren&#039;t not talking about a guy with small sample sizes.  

It&#039;s an interesting and fresh way of looking at career stats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s some great analysis in the Bill James Gold Mine (for which Mat Olkin did a lot of the statistical work) about how Craig Biggio&#8217;s postseason failures weren&#8217;t a fluke.  Rather, in his entire career, Biggio had feasted off bad pitchers and had performed poorly against good ones.  Thus, when he got to the postseason, he performed exactly as expected, only he was facing the competition he couldn&#8217;t dominate.  </p>
<p>And with Biggio, of course, weren&#8217;t not talking about a guy with small sample sizes.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an interesting and fresh way of looking at career stats.</p>
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		<title>By: pygmalion</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254091</link>
		<dc:creator>pygmalion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 05:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254091</guid>
		<description>43 First, what I said doesn&#039;t rule out that some freaks of nature could exist.  But as Mat pointed out in 44, Polanco isn&#039;t actually a counterexample anyway.  Even if he was, it wouldn&#039;t really matter.  The question is whether it is usually due to hitters or usually due to pitchers.  To me it seemed like a lot could be due to pitchers: After all, what is one of the chief signs of a good pitcher?  Throwing strikes and missing bats.  Pitchers who get hitters down 0-2 with regularity are generally good ones...so why shouldn&#039;t averages be low against good pitchers?

However, I&#039;ve now spent a little time checking on my numbers, although I haven&#039;t the time to do the more important part of it (checking out individual game performances...and I&#039;m not sure how to do that either).

Anyway, consider the following: 
PAA = Plate Appearances Against
PC = 0-2 counts
OPSA = OPS Against
PC% = Percent of PAA that are PC at some point

Santana: 892 PAA, 109 PC&#039;s, .356 OPSA, 12.2% PC%
Peavy: 907 PAA, 83 PC&#039;s, .410 OPSA, 9.2% PC%
Moyer: 886 PAA, 35 PC&#039;s, .514 OPSA, 4.0% PC%
L. Hernandez: 939 PAA, 40 PC&#039;s, .561 OPSA, 4.3% PC%
Contreras: 861 PAA, 72 PC&#039;s, .607 OPSA, 8.4% PC%

I&#039;m worried that five guys might not be a good sample, but that&#039;s what 30 minutes of research will get you on a slow connection.

In favor of my thesis: Guys like Santana and Peavy produce a good majority of the 0-2 counts in the league.  Hence, most hitters 0-2 counts are coming against pitchers who are tough.  Contreras seems a bit of an outlier here; not knowing him well I would guess that he throws a lot of strikes, but apparently he doesn&#039;t have much else.  

Against my thesis: Even the mediocre pitchers see their OPSA against drop substantially when the count is 0-2 (Contreras drops from .811 to .607).  The OPSA still varies wildly with the counts for the pitchers.  Santana for example has an OPSA above 1.000 when he falls into 2-0 counts.  Still, this might be because he only hits 2-0 counts during rare moments of suckiness.  

This suggests that my theory that the trend is more due to pitchers than hitters is true ONLY IF there is some kind of correlation between the quality of the last two pitches and the next pitch.  Otherwise...probably some kind of combination, just like everything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>43 First, what I said doesn&#8217;t rule out that some freaks of nature could exist.  But as Mat pointed out in 44, Polanco isn&#8217;t actually a counterexample anyway.  Even if he was, it wouldn&#8217;t really matter.  The question is whether it is usually due to hitters or usually due to pitchers.  To me it seemed like a lot could be due to pitchers: After all, what is one of the chief signs of a good pitcher?  Throwing strikes and missing bats.  Pitchers who get hitters down 0-2 with regularity are generally good ones&#8230;so why shouldn&#8217;t averages be low against good pitchers?</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;ve now spent a little time checking on my numbers, although I haven&#8217;t the time to do the more important part of it (checking out individual game performances&#8230;and I&#8217;m not sure how to do that either).</p>
<p>Anyway, consider the following:<br />
PAA = Plate Appearances Against<br />
PC = 0-2 counts<br />
OPSA = OPS Against<br />
PC% = Percent of PAA that are PC at some point</p>
<p>Santana: 892 PAA, 109 PC&#8217;s, .356 OPSA, 12.2% PC%<br />
Peavy: 907 PAA, 83 PC&#8217;s, .410 OPSA, 9.2% PC%<br />
Moyer: 886 PAA, 35 PC&#8217;s, .514 OPSA, 4.0% PC%<br />
L. Hernandez: 939 PAA, 40 PC&#8217;s, .561 OPSA, 4.3% PC%<br />
Contreras: 861 PAA, 72 PC&#8217;s, .607 OPSA, 8.4% PC%</p>
<p>I&#8217;m worried that five guys might not be a good sample, but that&#8217;s what 30 minutes of research will get you on a slow connection.</p>
<p>In favor of my thesis: Guys like Santana and Peavy produce a good majority of the 0-2 counts in the league.  Hence, most hitters 0-2 counts are coming against pitchers who are tough.  Contreras seems a bit of an outlier here; not knowing him well I would guess that he throws a lot of strikes, but apparently he doesn&#8217;t have much else.  </p>
<p>Against my thesis: Even the mediocre pitchers see their OPSA against drop substantially when the count is 0-2 (Contreras drops from .811 to .607).  The OPSA still varies wildly with the counts for the pitchers.  Santana for example has an OPSA above 1.000 when he falls into 2-0 counts.  Still, this might be because he only hits 2-0 counts during rare moments of suckiness.  </p>
<p>This suggests that my theory that the trend is more due to pitchers than hitters is true ONLY IF there is some kind of correlation between the quality of the last two pitches and the next pitch.  Otherwise&#8230;probably some kind of combination, just like everything else.</p>
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		<title>By: Mat</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254090</link>
		<dc:creator>Mat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254090</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Well, but the hitters have to be a big factor, otherwise how do you explain a guy like Placido Polanco, who hits .366 (.409 OBP) with an 0-2 count?&lt;/i&gt;

Near as I can tell, Polanco hits .233/.251/.319 with an 0-2 count.  Last year he happened to stumble upon a .366/.409/.415 line with an 0-2 count, but that was over a measly 44 plate appearances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Well, but the hitters have to be a big factor, otherwise how do you explain a guy like Placido Polanco, who hits .366 (.409 OBP) with an 0-2 count?</i></p>
<p>Near as I can tell, Polanco hits .233/.251/.319 with an 0-2 count.  Last year he happened to stumble upon a .366/.409/.415 line with an 0-2 count, but that was over a measly 44 plate appearances.</p>
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		<title>By: Kazinski</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254089</link>
		<dc:creator>Kazinski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254089</guid>
		<description>That stat on Yuni is pretty meaningless for two reasons, one its a small sample size, only 25ab last season. His 3 year numbers are .375/.379/.571 in 57ab, which of course is just fine.  What really matters is his numbers for what happens for his AB&#039;s &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; he reaches a  2-0 pitch those #&#039;s are .293/.417/.466 in 133ab.

The lesson Yuni should be taking from those numbers is not &quot;don&#039;t swing on a 2-0&quot;,  that is a hitters count, and Yuni will always be hitter first and seldom a walker.  What does stand out on those numbers is that Yuni only gets to a 2-0 count in about 10% of his AB&#039;s, more typical numbers would be about 15% of AB&#039;s.  That is significant, the average hitter will see 33% more 2-0 counts than Yuni will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That stat on Yuni is pretty meaningless for two reasons, one its a small sample size, only 25ab last season. His 3 year numbers are .375/.379/.571 in 57ab, which of course is just fine.  What really matters is his numbers for what happens for his AB&#8217;s <i>after</i> he reaches a  2-0 pitch those #&#8217;s are .293/.417/.466 in 133ab.</p>
<p>The lesson Yuni should be taking from those numbers is not &#8220;don&#8217;t swing on a 2-0&#8243;,  that is a hitters count, and Yuni will always be hitter first and seldom a walker.  What does stand out on those numbers is that Yuni only gets to a 2-0 count in about 10% of his AB&#8217;s, more typical numbers would be about 15% of AB&#8217;s.  That is significant, the average hitter will see 33% more 2-0 counts than Yuni will.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254088</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254088</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I know that we often speak as if it was something going on with the hitters that explains why they hit poorly in 0-2 counts. But if a pitcher gets a hitter to 0-2, doesnâ€™t this usually indicate that he is pitching well?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, but the hitters have to be a big factor, otherwise how do you explain a guy like Placido Polanco, who hits .366 (.409 OBP) with an 0-2 count?

&lt;a href=&quot;http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6049/situational&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I know that we often speak as if it was something going on with the hitters that explains why they hit poorly in 0-2 counts. But if a pitcher gets a hitter to 0-2, doesnâ€™t this usually indicate that he is pitching well?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, but the hitters have to be a big factor, otherwise how do you explain a guy like Placido Polanco, who hits .366 (.409 OBP) with an 0-2 count?</p>
<p><a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6049/situational" rel="nofollow"></a></p>
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		<title>By: Typical Idiot Fan</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/comment-page-1/#comment-254087</link>
		<dc:creator>Typical Idiot Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 02:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/07/mcclaren-uses-numbers-on-hitters/#comment-254087</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=430945&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shh... Adam&#039;s sleeping...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=430945" rel="nofollow">Shh&#8230; Adam&#8217;s sleeping&#8230;</a></p>
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