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	<title>Comments on: Game 125, Mariners at White Sox</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: bratman</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-3/#comment-297419</link>
		<dc:creator>bratman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297419</guid>
		<description>&quot;I blame myself for comparing Felix to Washburn.&quot;

That is comedy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I blame myself for comparing Felix to Washburn.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is comedy.</p>
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		<title>By: JR Ewing</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-3/#comment-297365</link>
		<dc:creator>JR Ewing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297365</guid>
		<description>FWIW, It looks like Ozzie Guillen is bringing all the big guns to play today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, It looks like Ozzie Guillen is bringing all the big guns to play today.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-3/#comment-297358</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297358</guid>
		<description>Please use the shift keys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please use the shift keys.</p>
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		<title>By: JR Ewing</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-3/#comment-297357</link>
		<dc:creator>JR Ewing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297357</guid>
		<description>jeff nye,  where do find my opinion that beltre is a bad signing ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jeff nye,  where do find my opinion that beltre is a bad signing ?</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-2/#comment-297348</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297348</guid>
		<description>Yes, that &lt;a href=&quot;http://ussmariner.com/2008/02/14/2008-win-values/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Win Values post&lt;/a&gt; post is from February.  But it doesn&#039;t go stale and bad like fish.  It&#039;s not fish.  It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;instructions&lt;/i&gt; on &lt;i&gt;how&lt;/i&gt; to fish.

It&#039;s late, and I&#039;m tired, so I&#039;m going to do this fast with minimal double-checking, but:

wOBA = (0.72 BB + 0.75 HBP + 0.90 1B + 0.92 RBOE + 1.24 2B + 1.56 3B + 1.95 HR) / PA

For Beltre, as of August 19 2008, that comes out to .323, which puts him slightly below AL league average for all hitters (and below Dave&#039;s projection, though it&#039;s worth noting that August historically is his best month, so he could still improve).  That&#039;s only works out to about one win&#039;s difference below that projection, though.  Then you have to add the positional adjustments and the defensive data, which gets tricky, because you really want to use all the available evaluations and not all of them are free (or available to a cheapskate like me).  When projecting Beltre for &#039;09 Dave used a .5 adjustment (or roughly 5 runs, which seems very conservative), so if we use that we end up with him as about a 1.7 win player -- which should be worth about $8.5M on the open market.   So, at $12M is he overpaid?  Maybe, though the season&#039;s not done yet (pro-rated, the M&#039;s have only paid him for 125/162 = 77% of the season, or $9.25M) and he may yet take things higher.  But even if he doesn&#039;t, it&#039;s not at all clear that (a) he isn&#039;t better than I&#039;ve just given him credit for defensively (especially with a groundball-oriented pitchers in the rotation), or (b) that $3.5M is wasted on Beltre when you consider every other rat hole the M&#039;s have stuffed with money this season (Jose Vidro says hello).  He was also somewhat underpaid considering his performance in &#039;06 and &#039;07, so you can take a life-of-the-contract approach as well.  Would I offer him another contract after &#039;09?  Probably not; like a lot of people back in July, I wouldn&#039;t have been afraid to trade him for a reasonable return, and I&#039;d certainly entertain offers this offseason or let him walk after &#039;09 for the draft picks.  But to get back to your question:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&quot;Is 12M a fair price to pay for average hitter who plays great defense at 3rd base?&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The answer is clearly yes. Unfortunately, at the moment, Beltre isn&#039;t quite that player (though he has been the past couple of years). 
 
BTW, Tango &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/how_to_calculate_war/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;suggests&lt;/a&gt; that 56% of your payroll should go to the 8 starting fielders, or perhaps a little more.  Beltre is getting roughly 10% of the 2008 payroll, so the team couldn&#039;t afford 8 Beltres; but then again, it doesn&#039;t have 8 (and it would be much better if it had another one or two, even if it had to pay for them).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that <a href="http://ussmariner.com/2008/02/14/2008-win-values/" rel="nofollow">Win Values post</a> post is from February.  But it doesn&#8217;t go stale and bad like fish.  It&#8217;s not fish.  It&#8217;s <i>instructions</i> on <i>how</i> to fish.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s late, and I&#8217;m tired, so I&#8217;m going to do this fast with minimal double-checking, but:</p>
<p>wOBA = (0.72 BB + 0.75 HBP + 0.90 1B + 0.92 RBOE + 1.24 2B + 1.56 3B + 1.95 HR) / PA</p>
<p>For Beltre, as of August 19 2008, that comes out to .323, which puts him slightly below AL league average for all hitters (and below Dave&#8217;s projection, though it&#8217;s worth noting that August historically is his best month, so he could still improve).  That&#8217;s only works out to about one win&#8217;s difference below that projection, though.  Then you have to add the positional adjustments and the defensive data, which gets tricky, because you really want to use all the available evaluations and not all of them are free (or available to a cheapskate like me).  When projecting Beltre for &#8217;09 Dave used a .5 adjustment (or roughly 5 runs, which seems very conservative), so if we use that we end up with him as about a 1.7 win player &#8212; which should be worth about $8.5M on the open market.   So, at $12M is he overpaid?  Maybe, though the season&#8217;s not done yet (pro-rated, the M&#8217;s have only paid him for 125/162 = 77% of the season, or $9.25M) and he may yet take things higher.  But even if he doesn&#8217;t, it&#8217;s not at all clear that (a) he isn&#8217;t better than I&#8217;ve just given him credit for defensively (especially with a groundball-oriented pitchers in the rotation), or (b) that $3.5M is wasted on Beltre when you consider every other rat hole the M&#8217;s have stuffed with money this season (Jose Vidro says hello).  He was also somewhat underpaid considering his performance in &#8217;06 and &#8217;07, so you can take a life-of-the-contract approach as well.  Would I offer him another contract after &#8217;09?  Probably not; like a lot of people back in July, I wouldn&#8217;t have been afraid to trade him for a reasonable return, and I&#8217;d certainly entertain offers this offseason or let him walk after &#8217;09 for the draft picks.  But to get back to your question:</p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8220;Is 12M a fair price to pay for average hitter who plays great defense at 3rd base?&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>The answer is clearly yes. Unfortunately, at the moment, Beltre isn&#8217;t quite that player (though he has been the past couple of years). </p>
<p>BTW, Tango <a href="http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/how_to_calculate_war/" rel="nofollow">suggests</a> that 56% of your payroll should go to the 8 starting fielders, or perhaps a little more.  Beltre is getting roughly 10% of the 2008 payroll, so the team couldn&#8217;t afford 8 Beltres; but then again, it doesn&#8217;t have 8 (and it would be much better if it had another one or two, even if it had to pay for them).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Nye</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-2/#comment-297341</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Nye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297341</guid>
		<description>At this point, it&#039;s not really worth trying to educate people who still want to consider the Beltre signing a bad one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point, it&#8217;s not really worth trying to educate people who still want to consider the Beltre signing a bad one.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: eponymous coward</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-2/#comment-297340</link>
		<dc:creator>eponymous coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297340</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;while beltreâ€™s defense is second to none . . . from an august 19, 2008 point of view, should the beltre signing be viewed as a success ? keeping in mind of course, overall roster construction and allocation of resources.&lt;/i&gt;

Why would the Beltre signing be anything other than a success, especially compared to the Silva/Washburn/Batista/Sexson/Johjima/Betancourt signings, or, say, the Bedard or Vidro trades?

It seems to me the fact that Adrian Beltre isn&#039;t hitting like it&#039;s 2004 is pretty low on the list of why the Mariners are en route to a disastrous season on August 19, 2008 compared to THOSE signings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>while beltreâ€™s defense is second to none . . . from an august 19, 2008 point of view, should the beltre signing be viewed as a success ? keeping in mind of course, overall roster construction and allocation of resources.</i></p>
<p>Why would the Beltre signing be anything other than a success, especially compared to the Silva/Washburn/Batista/Sexson/Johjima/Betancourt signings, or, say, the Bedard or Vidro trades?</p>
<p>It seems to me the fact that Adrian Beltre isn&#8217;t hitting like it&#8217;s 2004 is pretty low on the list of why the Mariners are en route to a disastrous season on August 19, 2008 compared to THOSE signings.</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-2/#comment-297339</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297339</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It was amusing to see Lauren Bay take a no hitter into the 5th inning (on tape) while her brother was getting no-hit by the Jays at Fenway (live)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and they are currently throwing her again, to get a chance to advance to the Gold Medal game vs the US</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It was amusing to see Lauren Bay take a no hitter into the 5th inning (on tape) while her brother was getting no-hit by the Jays at Fenway (live)</p></blockquote>
<p>and they are currently throwing her again, to get a chance to advance to the Gold Medal game vs the US</p>
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		<title>By: Carson</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-2/#comment-297338</link>
		<dc:creator>Carson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297338</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m interested to see what high road is taken tomorrow morning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested to see what high road is taken tomorrow morning.</p>
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		<title>By: JMHawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2008/08/19/game-125-mariners-at-white-sox/comment-page-2/#comment-297337</link>
		<dc:creator>JMHawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5852#comment-297337</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Iâ€™d say it matters relatively little. I suppose it could be interpreted as a vindication of how the team used Sherrill when he was here. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d say it also underscores the fagilitiy of pitchers in general.  But I&#039;m starting to wonder if that entire trade was such an affront to the baseball gods that all the players involved are cursed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>Iâ€™d say it matters relatively little. I suppose it could be interpreted as a vindication of how the team used Sherrill when he was here. </i></p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d say it also underscores the fagilitiy of pitchers in general.  But I&#8217;m starting to wonder if that entire trade was such an affront to the baseball gods that all the players involved are cursed.</p>
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