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	<title>Comments on: Win Values For Pitchers</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: Johnny Slick</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309546</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny Slick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309546</guid>
		<description>I think that was Groucho Marx, actually.

Anyway, a return to 5-win form by Erik Bedard alone might mean a CHAMPIONSHIP. By which I mean 80 wins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that was Groucho Marx, actually.</p>
<p>Anyway, a return to 5-win form by Erik Bedard alone might mean a CHAMPIONSHIP. By which I mean 80 wins.</p>
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		<title>By: wabbles</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309544</link>
		<dc:creator>wabbles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Karl Marx predicted the rise of unions that exploited younger workers for the sake of older workers?

No, he expounded on the exploitation of the worker (Felix) by the bourgeois which in this case would be major league baseball. But I thought I read that Marx actually was a closet Yankees fan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl Marx predicted the rise of unions that exploited younger workers for the sake of older workers?</p>
<p>No, he expounded on the exploitation of the worker (Felix) by the bourgeois which in this case would be major league baseball. But I thought I read that Marx actually was a closet Yankees fan.</p>
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		<title>By: paul2tele</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309538</link>
		<dc:creator>paul2tele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 05:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309538</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Needs more tRA.&lt;/em&gt;

Needs more cowbell.

(let the El Buffalo jokes commence)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Needs more tRA.</em></p>
<p>Needs more cowbell.</p>
<p>(let the El Buffalo jokes commence)</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309534</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309534</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;robbbbbb: theyâ€™re pretty similar, both using outcomes like fly balls, ground balls, swinging strikes, etc and assigning run values to them. You should go look at the tRA post at LL for the details, but in my understanding the biggest difference is tRA doesnâ€™t factor in HR rates, assuming pitchers canâ€™t control which FBs leave the yard.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Basically FIP = K+BB+HBP+HR
tRA = K+BB+HBP+GB+Bunt+LD+IFB+OFB+HR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>robbbbbb: theyâ€™re pretty similar, both using outcomes like fly balls, ground balls, swinging strikes, etc and assigning run values to them. You should go look at the tRA post at LL for the details, but in my understanding the biggest difference is tRA doesnâ€™t factor in HR rates, assuming pitchers canâ€™t control which FBs leave the yard.</p></blockquote>
<p>Basically FIP = K+BB+HBP+HR<br />
tRA = K+BB+HBP+GB+Bunt+LD+IFB+OFB+HR</p>
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		<title>By: JMHawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309510</link>
		<dc:creator>JMHawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309510</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So weâ€™ve exploited King Felix for the win equivalent of $55 million over four seasons? Maybe Karl Marx was on to something after all.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Karl Marx predicted the rise of unions that exploited younger workers for the sake of older workers?  

&lt;blockquote&gt;Looking at those the question that springs to mind is:

What the hell happened to Miguel Batista???&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The same thing that happens to most of us eventually.  Too many birthdays.  Having them in moderation is fine, but when you let them pile up, they take their toll.  Of course there are &quot;functional ageoholics&quot; like Moyer and Randy Johnson (and Rickey Henderson), but don&#039;t let the exceptions fool you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So weâ€™ve exploited King Felix for the win equivalent of $55 million over four seasons? Maybe Karl Marx was on to something after all.</p></blockquote>
<p>Karl Marx predicted the rise of unions that exploited younger workers for the sake of older workers?  </p>
<blockquote><p>Looking at those the question that springs to mind is:</p>
<p>What the hell happened to Miguel Batista???</p></blockquote>
<p>The same thing that happens to most of us eventually.  Too many birthdays.  Having them in moderation is fine, but when you let them pile up, they take their toll.  Of course there are &#8220;functional ageoholics&#8221; like Moyer and Randy Johnson (and Rickey Henderson), but don&#8217;t let the exceptions fool you.</p>
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		<title>By: supersam</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309507</link>
		<dc:creator>supersam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309507</guid>
		<description>I also think that tRA should have been used. It is way, way more advanced than FIP. I still go to &lt;a href=&quot;statcorner.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Statcorner&lt;/a&gt; to value pitchers. If fangraphs had started using tRA, I could get all of my info in one place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think that tRA should have been used. It is way, way more advanced than FIP. I still go to <a href="statcorner.com" rel="nofollow">Statcorner</a> to value pitchers. If fangraphs had started using tRA, I could get all of my info in one place.</p>
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		<title>By: Bender</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309506</link>
		<dc:creator>Bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309506</guid>
		<description>Looking at those the question that springs to mind is:

What the hell happened to Miguel Batista???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at those the question that springs to mind is:</p>
<p>What the hell happened to Miguel Batista???</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: TomC</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309502</link>
		<dc:creator>TomC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309502</guid>
		<description>2006-2008 Win Values

Felix Hernandez: 3.5, 4.4, 3.6
Erik Bedard: 5.4, 6.1, 1.0
Jarrod Washburn: 1.6, 2.3, 1.1
Carlos Silva: -0.1, 2.1, 1.3
Miguel Batista: 2.8, 2.9, -1.3

I know we all heap scorn on Carlos Silva but this tells me he was our second best starting pitcher last year  - yikes!

By comparison, here are two prominent ex-Mariners:

Randy Johnson:  3.9, 1.5, 3.6
Jamie Moyer: 1.7, 2.6, 2.3

Interesting factoid #1:  Jamie ($6 mil) made less than everyone other than Felix in 2008.
Interesting factoid #2:  Randy was worth 9.6 wins in 2004 - when he was 40 years old!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2006-2008 Win Values</p>
<p>Felix Hernandez: 3.5, 4.4, 3.6<br />
Erik Bedard: 5.4, 6.1, 1.0<br />
Jarrod Washburn: 1.6, 2.3, 1.1<br />
Carlos Silva: -0.1, 2.1, 1.3<br />
Miguel Batista: 2.8, 2.9, -1.3</p>
<p>I know we all heap scorn on Carlos Silva but this tells me he was our second best starting pitcher last year  &#8211; yikes!</p>
<p>By comparison, here are two prominent ex-Mariners:</p>
<p>Randy Johnson:  3.9, 1.5, 3.6<br />
Jamie Moyer: 1.7, 2.6, 2.3</p>
<p>Interesting factoid #1:  Jamie ($6 mil) made less than everyone other than Felix in 2008.<br />
Interesting factoid #2:  Randy was worth 9.6 wins in 2004 &#8211; when he was 40 years old!</p>
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		<title>By: mr.smartypants</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309500</link>
		<dc:creator>mr.smartypants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309500</guid>
		<description>Felix is worth somewhere between 15 and 20 million and he makes less than 1 million.  That&#039;s quite a deal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Felix is worth somewhere between 15 and 20 million and he makes less than 1 million.  That&#8217;s quite a deal.</p>
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		<title>By: mr.smartypants</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/01/12/win-values-for-pitchers/comment-page-1/#comment-309498</link>
		<dc:creator>mr.smartypants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=7076#comment-309498</guid>
		<description>robbbbbb: they&#039;re pretty similar, both using outcomes like fly balls, ground balls, swinging strikes, etc and assigning run values to them.  You should go look at the tRA post at LL for the details, but in my understanding the biggest difference is tRA doesn&#039;t factor in HR rates, assuming pitchers can&#039;t control which FBs leave the yard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>robbbbbb: they&#8217;re pretty similar, both using outcomes like fly balls, ground balls, swinging strikes, etc and assigning run values to them.  You should go look at the tRA post at LL for the details, but in my understanding the biggest difference is tRA doesn&#8217;t factor in HR rates, assuming pitchers can&#8217;t control which FBs leave the yard.</p>
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