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	<title>Comments on: When A Good Deal Stops Being One</title>
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	<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners blog and general baseball discussion</description>
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		<title>By: TranquilPsychosis</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354434</link>
		<dc:creator>TranquilPsychosis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 00:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354434</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Maybe Iâ€™m mistaken, but I thought the Ms have a need for a DH, and are already jammed with OF. Would it be nice to have a DH that would offer SOME flexibility defensively? Sure. But, Iâ€™d rather just have one that can hit, with his fielding ability a distant consideration&lt;/blockquote&gt;

 If they re-sign Branyan at 1B, you can no longer afford to have a gloveless DH. If they get a 1B with less injury concern, they probably sign Branyan an put him at DH.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Maybe Iâ€™m mistaken, but I thought the Ms have a need for a DH, and are already jammed with OF. Would it be nice to have a DH that would offer SOME flexibility defensively? Sure. But, Iâ€™d rather just have one that can hit, with his fielding ability a distant consideration</p></blockquote>
<p> If they re-sign Branyan at 1B, you can no longer afford to have a gloveless DH. If they get a 1B with less injury concern, they probably sign Branyan an put him at DH.</p>
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		<title>By: lewis458</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354429</link>
		<dc:creator>lewis458</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354429</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The fact that he canâ€™t field might be an issue on a team that canâ€™t afford to waste a roster spot on that type of player.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Maybe I&#039;m mistaken, but I thought the Ms have a need for a DH, and are already jammed with OF. Would it be nice to have a DH that would offer SOME flexibility defensively? Sure. But, I&#039;d rather just have one that can hit, with his fielding ability a distant consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The fact that he canâ€™t field might be an issue on a team that canâ€™t afford to waste a roster spot on that type of player.</p></blockquote>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m mistaken, but I thought the Ms have a need for a DH, and are already jammed with OF. Would it be nice to have a DH that would offer SOME flexibility defensively? Sure. But, I&#8217;d rather just have one that can hit, with his fielding ability a distant consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: MKT</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354333</link>
		<dc:creator>MKT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354333</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, why is it that people seem to think that every player from Japan needs to be a Mariner at some point in their MLB career? Are the Mariners now the general consensus NPB catchall team?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If we were to add up, say, the cumulative Wins Above Replacement or some such measure that the Mariners have received from their Japanese players, between Sasaki, Ichiro, and Johjima, I think it&#039;s possible that the Mariners have gotten more production from their Japanese players than any other team has.

Or maybe a simpler measure would be the cumulative plate appearances and innings pitched (although since Sasaki was a closer we&#039;d probably want to weight by leverage or something like that).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Also, why is it that people seem to think that every player from Japan needs to be a Mariner at some point in their MLB career? Are the Mariners now the general consensus NPB catchall team?</p></blockquote>
<p>If we were to add up, say, the cumulative Wins Above Replacement or some such measure that the Mariners have received from their Japanese players, between Sasaki, Ichiro, and Johjima, I think it&#8217;s possible that the Mariners have gotten more production from their Japanese players than any other team has.</p>
<p>Or maybe a simpler measure would be the cumulative plate appearances and innings pitched (although since Sasaki was a closer we&#8217;d probably want to weight by leverage or something like that).</p>
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		<title>By: TranquilPsychosis</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354314</link>
		<dc:creator>TranquilPsychosis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 07:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354314</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™m also curious if anyone is aware of any really good Japanese free agents that might be a good fit for our situation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

 Is there a valid reason the player has to be Japanese? 

 &lt;blockquote&gt;What would the argument against Matsui be?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

 The fact that he can&#039;t field might be an issue on a team that can&#039;t afford to waste a roster spot on that type of player. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;With his injury problems the last few years and his age, he comes cheap. Might take a â€œhometownâ€ discount to play in Seattle.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

 How exactly would Seattle get a &quot;hometown&quot; discount for a player that has never played on the team? 

 Also, why is it that people seem to think that every player from Japan needs to be a Mariner at some point in their MLB career?  Are the Mariners now the general consensus NPB catchall team?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Iâ€™m also curious if anyone is aware of any really good Japanese free agents that might be a good fit for our situation.</p></blockquote>
<p> Is there a valid reason the player has to be Japanese? </p>
<blockquote><p>What would the argument against Matsui be?</p></blockquote>
<p> The fact that he can&#8217;t field might be an issue on a team that can&#8217;t afford to waste a roster spot on that type of player. </p>
<blockquote><p>With his injury problems the last few years and his age, he comes cheap. Might take a â€œhometownâ€ discount to play in Seattle.</p></blockquote>
<p> How exactly would Seattle get a &#8220;hometown&#8221; discount for a player that has never played on the team? </p>
<p> Also, why is it that people seem to think that every player from Japan needs to be a Mariner at some point in their MLB career?  Are the Mariners now the general consensus NPB catchall team?</p>
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		<title>By: lewis458</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354218</link>
		<dc:creator>lewis458</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354218</guid>
		<description>What would the argument against Matsui be?

With his injury problems the last few years and his age, he comes cheap. Might take a &quot;hometown&quot; discount to play in Seattle.

Left handed power-ish hitter with very solid OB skills. You can count on a 120+ OPS when he&#039;s healthy...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would the argument against Matsui be?</p>
<p>With his injury problems the last few years and his age, he comes cheap. Might take a &#8220;hometown&#8221; discount to play in Seattle.</p>
<p>Left handed power-ish hitter with very solid OB skills. You can count on a 120+ OPS when he&#8217;s healthy&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Miles</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354198</link>
		<dc:creator>Miles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354198</guid>
		<description>Re Beltre:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Heâ€™s not likely to take a three year deal somewhere. No one is going to give him the kind of money that his agent will look for on that long term of a deal.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
If he&#039;s not getting a 3 year deal and the M&#039;s offer arbitration, I don&#039;t see how anyone pays him half as much as he gets in arbitration. He needs one more year in Seattle to prove he&#039;s healthy. And we need one more year of Beltre so 3B is not another issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Beltre:</p>
<blockquote><p>Heâ€™s not likely to take a three year deal somewhere. No one is going to give him the kind of money that his agent will look for on that long term of a deal.</p></blockquote>
<p>If he&#8217;s not getting a 3 year deal and the M&#8217;s offer arbitration, I don&#8217;t see how anyone pays him half as much as he gets in arbitration. He needs one more year in Seattle to prove he&#8217;s healthy. And we need one more year of Beltre so 3B is not another issue.</p>
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		<title>By: olystuart</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354155</link>
		<dc:creator>olystuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354155</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious how much money you&#039;re looking at for Chone Figgins, what do ya&#039;ll think?  It seems like he&#039;s been just dismissed as too expensive.
I&#039;m also curious if anyone is aware of any really good Japanese free agents that might be a good fit for our situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious how much money you&#8217;re looking at for Chone Figgins, what do ya&#8217;ll think?  It seems like he&#8217;s been just dismissed as too expensive.<br />
I&#8217;m also curious if anyone is aware of any really good Japanese free agents that might be a good fit for our situation.</p>
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		<title>By: moethedog</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354153</link>
		<dc:creator>moethedog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354153</guid>
		<description>Dave, 

Nice post.  The M&#039;s do have to roll the dice a bit in the FA market...if they want to get to the 90-95 win level.

Part of those calculated gambles will be calculated gambles on which current M&#039;s to give significant playing time, too.  

If a left field combo that includes Saunders is less of a risk than Carp...then you&#039;ll see the M&#039;s go for a 1B/DH type in the FA market; a Johnson type.  If Carp is less of a risk than the LF combo..then I think they&#039;ll persue a leftfield FA (Is there a a good glove/good stick guy...a 3.5+ WAR guy... out there?) or trade for one.

Is Tui ready for 600+PA&#039;s and a bunch of fielding chances?  If so, then perhaps you don&#039;t chase a FA 3b guy, or you package Lopez and others for a #2 starter.  Assessing whether Lopez has maxed out as a hitter is a bit of a risk, too.

So part of the risk is in evaluating the young talent on hand; Who will mature into a +WAR guy, and who will be just a replacement level player?

There is some risk in resigning Branyan, too...although we haven&#039;t mentioned that.  Was 2009 the norm he will return to or a quirk?  Throw in a balky back and you have to roll the dice with him, too.

Pesonally I think Tui starts somewhere in the IF (2b or 3b), Carp gets the 1b assignment and they spend money on a LF guy and on the arm.

Hard to see more than two significant (in terms of $) FA or trade pickups.

Keith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, </p>
<p>Nice post.  The M&#8217;s do have to roll the dice a bit in the FA market&#8230;if they want to get to the 90-95 win level.</p>
<p>Part of those calculated gambles will be calculated gambles on which current M&#8217;s to give significant playing time, too.  </p>
<p>If a left field combo that includes Saunders is less of a risk than Carp&#8230;then you&#8217;ll see the M&#8217;s go for a 1B/DH type in the FA market; a Johnson type.  If Carp is less of a risk than the LF combo..then I think they&#8217;ll persue a leftfield FA (Is there a a good glove/good stick guy&#8230;a 3.5+ WAR guy&#8230; out there?) or trade for one.</p>
<p>Is Tui ready for 600+PA&#8217;s and a bunch of fielding chances?  If so, then perhaps you don&#8217;t chase a FA 3b guy, or you package Lopez and others for a #2 starter.  Assessing whether Lopez has maxed out as a hitter is a bit of a risk, too.</p>
<p>So part of the risk is in evaluating the young talent on hand; Who will mature into a +WAR guy, and who will be just a replacement level player?</p>
<p>There is some risk in resigning Branyan, too&#8230;although we haven&#8217;t mentioned that.  Was 2009 the norm he will return to or a quirk?  Throw in a balky back and you have to roll the dice with him, too.</p>
<p>Pesonally I think Tui starts somewhere in the IF (2b or 3b), Carp gets the 1b assignment and they spend money on a LF guy and on the arm.</p>
<p>Hard to see more than two significant (in terms of $) FA or trade pickups.</p>
<p>Keith</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354152</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354152</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;jjracoon on November 4th, 2009 7:27 am

What has always confused me about the Mariners choice of players is the lack of speed that is added. If you dont have homerun hitters then it seems logical you will need to manufacture runs and speed plays a big role in achieving that. Other than Ichiro and previously Bloomquist this team never has had much in the way of base stealers. That said â€“ Figgins is my choice to fill the 2 hole and provide much needed speed.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;The single most important factor for scoring runs is getting on base. That&#039;s more important than hitting home runs. If you don&#039;t have sluggers getting on base is even more important.

Speed is so much less important than getting on base that it&#039;s hardly worth worrying about. Willie Bloomquist could be the best base stealer currently in baseball, but even so giving Bloomquist 600 plate appearances would still be a net loss because his speed will never make up for his simple inability to get on base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>jjracoon on November 4th, 2009 7:27 am</p>
<p>What has always confused me about the Mariners choice of players is the lack of speed that is added. If you dont have homerun hitters then it seems logical you will need to manufacture runs and speed plays a big role in achieving that. Other than Ichiro and previously Bloomquist this team never has had much in the way of base stealers. That said â€“ Figgins is my choice to fill the 2 hole and provide much needed speed.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The single most important factor for scoring runs is getting on base. That&#8217;s more important than hitting home runs. If you don&#8217;t have sluggers getting on base is even more important.</p>
<p>Speed is so much less important than getting on base that it&#8217;s hardly worth worrying about. Willie Bloomquist could be the best base stealer currently in baseball, but even so giving Bloomquist 600 plate appearances would still be a net loss because his speed will never make up for his simple inability to get on base.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph_Malph</title>
		<link>http://www.ussmariner.com/2009/11/03/when-a-good-deal-stops-being-one/comment-page-2/#comment-354148</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph_Malph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=9572#comment-354148</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™d think heâ€™s be more productive than Griffey as a DH.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Surely one can set a higher bar than that.  Almost any decent AAAA hitter would be more productive than Griffey (Bryan LaHair, to name a ridiculous example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Iâ€™d think heâ€™s be more productive than Griffey as a DH.</p></blockquote>
<p>Surely one can set a higher bar than that.  Almost any decent AAAA hitter would be more productive than Griffey (Bryan LaHair, to name a ridiculous example).</p>
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