All righty then.

So, the 2013 Mariners = great success, going from last year’s 149 dingers to a 2013 projection (over 162 games) of 175 dingers. Gosh, look at all the dingers we added!

Of course, we’re projecting out to 567 runs instead of last year’s 619… but hey, DINGERS11!!!!11!

There used to a be an occasionally enforced comment rule around here–one that I dearly miss–that went something like this: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.

You seem be to be claiming you’ve accomplished two things here. First, you’re claiming to have figured out how to both a) measure and b) weight the value of catcher defense. And they weight you’re assigning it would have to be considerably greater than most existing theories of the relative importance of catcher defense. As Dave pointed out this off-season, the gap between the best and worst catcher defense is, according to the best research we’ve got available right now, probably between -1 WAR and +1 WAR. Jaso’s statistics also suggest he’s probably not at the bottom of that. But in order to make the claim you make here, you must make an implied claim that you you know better–Jaso is worse than our statistical evaluations suggest, and the range is larger than we thought.

I’m fascinated to see how you achieved this knowledge. Please enlighten the rest of us!

If Jaso were traded for that, no one would have complained. What you describe would be a better, more valuable player than John Jaso. This has *nothing* to do with the validity of the claim that Jaso wast he Mariner’s best hitter in 2012. It’s a complete non-sequitur; changing the subject. There was never any reason to think “best hitter on the team” is synonymous with “player without flaws.” Calling him the best hitter on the team means he’s the best hitter on the team: nothing more, nothing less.

It’s also a replication of one of the man you honor in your handle’s greatests flaws–a focus on what players don’t do well instead of what they can and do do well.

Jaso was not irreplaceable, while Morse provided something the lineup didn’t have and tried to add

“Not irreplaceable” is a meaningless phrase as far as I can tell. But in general, this is a terrible way to think about player’s value. Jaso is more valuable to a team’s offense than Morse, because OBP is more valuable than SLG. Jaso’s offensive contribution isn’t worth less than Morse’s because Morse is “harder to replace”. That’s not relevant to the question of their offensive value. (And honestly, ‘crappy outfielders who hit home runs and give back whatever value those home runs provide with their grotesque glovework’ apparently aren’t that hard to find, as the Mariners found two more of them no one else wanted in Ibanez and Bay.) Jaso was a much better hitter last year. (This year, they have essentially identical offensive value, due to Jaso’s loss of power). Jaso may not be a good catcher, but his ability to passably play the position far exceeds Morse’s ability to passably play his, giving him considerably more value than Morse. Consider Jaso’s lower age, cheaper cost, and more years of team control, and this is one of the most obviously, straightforwardly indefensible GM decisions I’ve ever seen.

You’re arguing in circles! I understood your point and your reasoning, I just don’t agree with it.

Jaso wasn’t a great catcher. Better than Montero, but not somebody who was going to hold Zunino back from an eventual starting job. But that doesn’t mean his catching didn’t offer anything. He still would have been a step-up from Shoppach (factoring everything in as a complete player) and certainly capable of keeping the seat warm for 2013. Point is, he’s good enough.

It really seems like you’re undermining his value as a hitter. If/when the time came to shift him to a backing role for Zunino, he could also DH or possibly even play first. It’s not like he would have to be kept as the starting catcher to stick around. And again, as a lefty, even in a platooned role, he offers a lot. Look at what he did with us with runners on. Look at what he’s done for Oakland with runners on. He didn’t earn respect for a .276 BA. He earned it because he came through a LOT when the team needed him to. He was an outstanding situational hitter and he still is. His line with RISP for us was .378/.486/.682 with 40 RBI’s in 100 PA’s. For Oakland, it’s currently .366/.449/.488 with 17 RBI’s in 50 PA’s.

He’s on pace to net around 500 PA’s for the A’s. That hardly suggests he’s a side dish. To suggest his defense offsets his offensive value is ridiculous. And that’s factored into his WAR, which again, led the team last year.

He wasn’t just our best hitter. He was (is) a great hitter. And he plays the toughest defensive position around replacement level, which happened to be better than any other option we had. And you can’t say he wouldn’t have been the starter. You don’t know that. The fact that Wedge quit on Montero so fast and had no problem ditching Shoppach, says a lot.

There was value in what Jaso offered apart from the hitting. But if you really wanna argue defense, try to make a case for Morse as an outfielder.

“I can’t believe we gave up our best hitter” simplifies Jaso’s usefulness to the one quality he had that was positive.

Nobody says “I can’t believe we gave up our best guy at throwing out baserunners” about Olivo.

There are other factors necessary to determine the guy’s worth.

To ONLY use “best hitter” in assessing his value is to be misleading, and maybe that wasn’t Steve’s point, but it has been multiple times here.

“His offense doesn’t offset what you punt on the defensive side” is a great way to desribe what Morse represents…

But to me it’s equally effective at describing what Jaso represents.

John Jaso is not a very good catcher. That’s where I get stuck on his value. Period.

I would love John Jaso as a backup catcher/situational pinch hitter. But that’s not what we’re talking about. And I’m suggesting those are easier to replace than a power hitting DH/1B type. Jaso was not irreplaceable, while Morse provided something the lineup didn’t have and tried to add (in Hamilton *phew, lucked out there* and Upton).

Did we do a horrible job replacing what Jaso represents on a Mariners roster? Absolutely. Awful awful. Would he have been better? Yes. But I don’t regret losing him, really.

That’s all I’m attempting to say. (But obviously I’m not getting my point across very well– or I am, and don’t realize my own ignorance.)

THAT’s a valuable piece too. That’s what I want.

Nothing against John Jaso. I’d rather have somebody besides either Jaso or Morse in their respective roles on this team, if we’re talking theoretics. In the imaginary world, which is what we’re talking about (because Jaso wouldn’t have been the starting catcher in Seattle this year– even AFTER Montero’s demotion, I would guess), I leap a little further than wishing we still had John Jaso as our catcher. AND wishing more than Morse/Bay/Ibanez in everyday outfielder roles (which is never what I thought they would be).

(I suppose I was thinking about these kinds of narrower, specific factual claims. Of course you can construct a misleading narrative without lying.)