M’s talking to Carlos

DMZ · November 5, 2004 at 3:02 pm · Filed Under Mariners 

Says Mr. Delgado. Does seem as if Baltimore’s got the stronger hand, but at that point I’m reading into the article a little.


40 Responses to “M’s talking to Carlos”

  1. eponymous coward on November 5th, 2004 3:19 pm

    I also note this:

    -guffaw, bwahahaha-

    Seriously, those ratings crack me up every time.

  2. eponymous coward on November 5th, 2004 3:19 pm

    Er, I mean this:
    His stock may have increased in the past week when Elias Sports Bureau – baseball’s official statisticians – named Delgado the game’s top player.

    Elias’ rankings combine statistics such as batting average, plate appearances, home runs and runs batted in for hitters

  3. misterjonez on November 5th, 2004 3:20 pm

    I don’t know if Baltimore’s got a better shot at him…They’re absolutely buried in the AL East, and while we are NO spring chicken looking for a fight, I think we have less ahead of us in terms of actual talent than the O’s do.

    That said, I doubt they’ll sign an actual impact player like Delgado. And while his makeup clearly suits Safeco, he is 32 and had some knee trouble this year. What do you think his ACTUAL value is?

  4. ChrisK on November 5th, 2004 3:36 pm

    Here is what Baltimore can offer Delgado as of today:
    – Great hitter’s ballpark
    – An owner willing to spend
    – Strong Latin player contingent
    – Lineup protection from Tejada, Mora, Lopez, Gibbons, etc.

    Here is what Seattle can offer (as of today):
    – Pitcher’s ballpark
    – No lineup protection
    – Owner historically unwilling to spend
    – No strong Latin connection (compared to Baltimore)

    I would say Baltimore has the upper hand as of today. Let’s hope the M’s realize that competition does exist in the free agent market.

  5. Troy on November 5th, 2004 3:39 pm

    ChrisK, you really think Baltimore has a historic track record of outspending us? I would say they are historically willing to overspend for certain guys, but I don’t think they usually drop much more coin for payroll than we do. Could be wrong.

  6. Rob on November 5th, 2004 3:45 pm

    I saw the title and was like ohhhh, then I read delgado…..

  7. Aaron on November 5th, 2004 3:47 pm

    Baltimore certainly does have a stronger track record when it comes to bringing high-priced outside free agents into the team. The Marniers tend to only open the wallet to retain existing players. We can only hope that changes significantly this year.

    But I though teams could only talk to thier own free agents before the 11th…..Did the O’s and M’s just call his agent and say ‘hey, there is some interest for Carlos’ services outside Toronto,’ or is even that much conversation tantamount to tampering?

  8. PositivePaul on November 5th, 2004 3:49 pm

    Anyone in the AL East other than Boston or New York will have to spend huge amounts of dough to compete with those behemoths. Indeed Baltimore has some great offensive players, but they have absolutely no pitching, and no real pitching prospects in their system. They need pitching first and foremost to even think about competing in their own division. They’ve become the Texas Rangers, really. If anything, the O’s will sign one or two of the pitchers available, and possibly pursue Delgado. Really, if we were to get into a bidding war for Delgado with the O’s, I’d suspect the M’s would win that war. Merely because they need pitching much more than they need offense.

    I, for one, don’t think that Delgado is the caliber of player that is affected by a pitcher’s-vs-hitter’s park situation. Dude can hit, and hit it far.

    I’m OK with getting Delgado for the right deal. 3 years 28 million or so would be fine. He’d be a huge piece in the puzzle, but would not be that major splash that the M’s need to make. Beltran or Beltre would be, and that’s about it.

    Hargrove is really keen on being reunited with Sexson. I personally would rather have Delgado than Sexson.

  9. eponymous coward on November 5th, 2004 3:50 pm

    Well, let’s see, Miguel Tejada, Javy Lopez, Albert Belle…

    Personally, let Baltimore have Delgado and his Elias Sport Bureau’s “top player” rating (which is probably worth a cup of coffee at 7-11 when combined with $0.59). We don’t need to be signing 32 year olds this year. I’d rather they set the goddamned salary money on fire, to be perfectly honest, because at least everyone would KNOW they were wasting it, as opposed to some people being fooled into thinking that signing Delgado was a step forward.

  10. random guy on November 5th, 2004 4:01 pm

    Hmm, I honestly think if delgado put up 2k3 like numbers he would be THE top free agent there is, his value is down so good for us. Despite this I kinda hoped for the M’s to go after beltre first. Delgado is still a pretty huge impact player IMO

  11. PositivePaul on November 5th, 2004 4:06 pm

    I still think there’s no reason why we couldn’t and shouldn’t go after Beltre and Delgado both. Beltre would help us both in the here & now and in the long term (and could be that guy we build around), whereas Delgado would help jumpstart this team and provide some offensive credibility today, and possibly for a few more years.

    Were they to sign both of those guys, I’d consider the splash to be fairly huge…

  12. patnmic on November 5th, 2004 4:08 pm

    The Mariners should not be signing a 32 year old first basemen for several reasons.
    -Bucky Jacobson and Raul Ibanez (both can play 1st)
    -Takes money away from signing a FA for a position of need (CF, SS, 3B and SP).
    -A 32 year old is in decline. This team will take at least 2 years to become competitive again. More then likely he’ll be a guy you’ll want off the books by then.

  13. PositivePaul on November 5th, 2004 4:10 pm

    Besides — the M’s are looking, again, to make a big splash to appease their fan base (or at least they’re SAYING they are). How many average non-USS Mariner-addicted fans even know who Beltre is? I’d bet a whole lot more of these people know who Delgado is, and would think that it’s pretty cool that we got him.

    Bottom line, to make the type of splash they’re talking about making, they’re going to HAVE to get a big-named player. Glaus or Delgado, even though we all realize these signings might be counter-intuitive, would provide that name recognition at the very least. Throw in a Beltre signing into the mix, and you’ve got us professional fans appeased, too.

  14. David C on November 5th, 2004 4:17 pm

    I question Delgado as a ‘character guy’ – not that I don’t he has class but he drew a lot of flak for refusing to stand during the 7th inning ‘God Bless America’ because he was protesting weapons testing in Puerto Rico.

  15. Northsider on November 5th, 2004 4:24 pm

    #14….who cares?

  16. eponymous coward on November 5th, 2004 4:41 pm

    Look, this is pretty simple. Rant follows. Please feel free to tl;dr it.

    There are very few examples of teams that have been able to achieve sustained greatness based solely on FA signings. The best teams over, say, the last 15 years (Braves, Yankees, Indians) have all done it based on their home-grown talent. You’ve has some short flashes in the pan like the Mets, but really, you HAVE to develop talent from the farm. Even the Yankees have fallen short with their superteam of their late 90’s team, when their farm talent (Williams, Pettite, Jeter, Posada, Rivera) was at its peak.

    The M’s don’t have game breaking talent in their minor leagues (except for MAYBE King Felix, and we all know TANSTAAPP)- it says a lot that Jeremy Reed instantly became our best prospect when we traded for him. They need draft picks to change this, and this will start this year- which means at best it’s 3 years before this comes to fruition (compare to Texas, Anaheim and Oakland, BTW, and you see the problem).

    In the meantime, what the team SHOULD be concentrating on are players who have a reasonable shot of being contributing players 3+ years from now when the farm system can start churning out players (assuming Fontaine > Maddox, which is a pretty safe assumption). This will improve the team in the short run AND long run, instead of running the risk of having the 2007 version of Bret Boone dragging the team down.

    Delgado isn’t as likely to be the first kind of player (and is more likely to be the second) as Beltre, Beltran, Glaus or maybe even Sexson is. Maybe he’ll be Fred McGriff or Raffy Palmeiro at the end of his contract- but maybe he’ll be Jason Giambi or Mo Vaughn. I just don’t see the point of concentrating limited FA money on a 32 year old 1B when your team has SO MANY HOLES. If we were coming off of a close miss and had some talent in the minors, I’d be willing to say “Sure, what the hell”. If we were going to shovel $40-50 million at Beltran, Beltre, Clement, Benitez AND Delgado this offseason, OK. But in my opinion, signing a guy like Delgado is something a team does when they are looking for a missing piece that could get them into the Series, not when the team’s looking at a multi-year project. And THAT’s why I’d rather they burn the money- because the risk of paying someone like Bret Boone in 2004-2005 to be crap made sense after 2001. It doesn’t right now, when just being .500 the next two years is going to be tough enough.

  17. Evan on November 5th, 2004 4:52 pm

    Just as American media sometimes forgets to report on happenings on the west coast, Canadian media gives extra weight to anything that happens near the border. Seattle will be seen as a preferable destination for Delgado, simply due to its proximity to British Columbia.

    I see a lot of Jays games. I think Carlos is a great guy, if that counts for anything.

  18. Jerry on November 5th, 2004 5:59 pm

    E Coward,

    I agree with you that Delgado should not be the ‘big signing’. I guess it will depend on exactly how much the M’s want to spend. I think that 80% of the people on this blog think that Beltre is the answer for the big signing, while the other 20% think that the team should break the bank for Beltran. Needless to say, either of those guys would be great.

    Since the M’s have a lot of holes to fill, I think that Beltre plus another position player is the way forward. If they don’t get stingy, they can afford two guys on 10 mil/year contracts, plus a starter, in 2005. If they structure the contracts with lower 2005 values, they can afford Beltre plus another player.

    If I was GM, I would go after JD Drew. He would help the defense more than anyone at 1B. However, he might be too expensive. Delgado would be a good pickup as that second guy. His age is an issue, but he is the big lefty bat that the team really needs. Sexson is another option, but the fact that he is a righty is a bit of an issue. Actually, I am torn between which one would make the most sense if the M’s do decide to pursue a first baseman.

    Delgados pros:
    -better all-around hitter
    -lefty who plays well in Safeco
    -team leader/veteran/character-guy/blah,blah
    -if healthy, he puts up MVP offensive numbers, and finished 2004 strong

    Delgado cons:
    -mediocre defense
    -some injury questions
    -probably more expensive

    Sexson pros:
    -huge power
    -has been consistently healthy before this year
    -better defense than Delgado
    -prototypical #5 hitter if the M’s get another middle-of-the-order hitter
    -local ties, blah blah
    -probably less expensive

    Sexson Cons:
    -big health questions
    -one-dimensional hitter compared to Delgado (lots of K’s, not as good OBP)
    -if healthy, not quite the same level hitter as Delgado

    All in all, this is a tough call. I think that the age question with Delgado might be a bit overblown. Delgado will not be getting a long-term contract, so it is not like a Giambi situation like someone said above. Delgado will only be 34 at the end of a 3-year contract and 35 at the end of a 4-year contract (these are openning day ages). So it is not like you are signing a guy who will be way old at the end of his contract. He has showed no signs of slowing down after he came back from the DL this year. He destroyed the ball after the all-star break. Plus, he has been consistently good every year between 1998 and 2003, and last year was pretty good for an off year. In his off year, he was much much better than anyone on the M’s roster (well, besides Ichiro, but these guys aren’t exactly comparable). Sexson would be a good pickup too, but the only things that make him a better choice than Delgado are age and defense. The age difference is only 2 years, and that is offset by the fact that Sexson is coming off a pretty scary injury that will hamper his ability to swing a bat.

    I am not sure if the M’s should even sign a first baseman. However, they should go after a second hitter, and that guy should play either 1B or OF. Ibanez’s versatility gives them a little leeway, but I defintely like Ibanez in LF better than 1B. Plus, if the M’s went for an OFer besides Beltran, they would have to deal with the touchy situation of moving Ichiro to CF.

    In the end, any of these guys would be awesome as a SECOND signing. If the M’s are going to go out and sign one big position player and one starter, they DEFINITELY should look elsewhere. If that is the case, only Beltre and Beltran make a lot of sense.

  19. Evan on November 5th, 2004 6:02 pm

    Beltre and Delgado would instantly make the team at least credible.

    Though I still want a real CF and some way to keep Lopez in Tacoma. And some pitching.

    Wow, this team needs work.

  20. Jerry on November 5th, 2004 6:05 pm

    E. Coward and ChrisK,

    Baltimore made some big signings after years of rebuilding. They might make some more free agent signings this offseason, but their payroll in only $65 million, and they are not likely to raise it. The M’s have a lot more financial resources than the Orioles do. They also have a MUCH better minor league system and far better pitching. You can’t really say that Baltimore is a lot more attractive place to play than Seattle except for the pitcher park factor.

  21. Jerry on November 5th, 2004 6:12 pm

    One more thing about Baltimore:

    Have you ever been there? Yikes.

  22. Metz on November 5th, 2004 6:32 pm

    re: 21: I agree. We spent a few days there this summer on our roadtrip across the USA. I had heard good things about Baltimore. The inner harbor is a copy of every other tourist area across the USA. The rest of the city, while rich in history, is a dump. The best thing we saw was Ft. McHenry. I doubt it means anything to a professional baseball player who spends their limited time in the home state mostly in the park. Frankly I don’t want the M’s going after anyone on the downside of 30 years old this year.

  23. big chef terry on November 5th, 2004 6:43 pm

    They won’t sign Delgado, Beltre or Beltran. Never happen, not this year or for a long time. Wrong group running the show.

  24. jj on November 5th, 2004 7:40 pm

    #23, I respect your opinion. But if you feel this way about the Mariners, why do you even bother to follow the team and come here to post?

  25. Dave in Palo Alto on November 5th, 2004 11:38 pm

    Ahhh, B-more ain’t so bad. Day of blue crabs, the Birds and drinks at the Harbor against the Chesapeake won’t be your worst day.

    Now, Houston, on the other hand. . . . .

  26. CaB on November 6th, 2004 12:19 am

    Beltran, most all agree, would be a great fit. There is no question. However, with Ichiro and probably Reed, in the outfield for the next 4 years together, room is scarce. Not to mention Choo will be in triple-A next year and knocking on the door late season.
    In turn, the Mariners DO need to concentrate on Beltre, or Sexon. I say that because I, like many, believe we need to get younger guys signed so that they still have something left when we’re legitimate contenders. This kind of excludes Delgado.

    Go get em Bavasi…

  27. peter on November 6th, 2004 3:22 am

    just something to put out to everyone…..Boone just had laser eye surgery. The same one Glaus had at the beginning of the season. In a contract year i see boone making a huge come back especially if there is some more power in the lineup.
    Not a bad 3-6 if you ask me. Of course the Front office still has to sign two power bats but we will see….MarinerFaninIraq

  28. big chef terry on November 6th, 2004 6:21 am

    #24 This isn’t fantasy…its time for close scrutiny in the face of a limited budget. Just to throw out that it would be wonderful to get the two best free agents is not reasoned thought. Their budget probably won’t let them sign one major player…so are there are any 2nd and 3rd tier players that they might sign, e.g. Boone coming out of an injury year in 2001? Glaus…perhaps. Then are there other bit players to add at $1-2 mm, per?

  29. enkel on November 6th, 2004 9:30 am

    Beltre,Beltran,Clemet should all be signed in that order.Just take hit for Jarvis Cerillo etc do no count against 2005 just bad investment as were my 2004 season tickets. Wonder if Front Ofiice (owners) will allow me to deduct my bad 2004 against 2005 season tickets or give refund to advertisers? So just take hit on bad investment move on.
    Really tired of watching runners advance a base on balls hit to center & left all runners chalange the fielders successfully many times scoring from 3rd on shallow ball to left. Reed left Beltran center.Beltran is an extremely great all round talent. Proved in pressure situation.
    Owners can afford all 3. Getting proven talent in prime no long term cost in developing unknown.
    Trade Franklin, Winn there is market for them.Bucky was much more athletic than anticipated 1st base along w/Ibanez should not be issue or done via trade..Overbay?He wants to be here.
    Beltrans & Beltres do not come along often for only money which team can afford easily. Moreno made 4 significant signings last season. Baltimore 2.Moreno is to be feared.Will spend money is Latin has perhaps best manager it would not sbe a surprise he is player in Beltran bidding & that destination has to look great to Beltran scary thought he & Vlad & Garciaparra in that lineup.
    Hoping for the best>

  30. Jerry on November 6th, 2004 10:05 am

    A lot will depend on trades. I hope that the M’s make some blockbuster trade, even if it means giving up a pitcher and/or some prospects to bring in a really good player. If this is the case, it could change the direction the team might go in free agency.

    We have some depth at OF, bullpen pitchers, and pitching prospects. The M’s have pretty good talent in the farm system. It would be nice if the M’s could make one or two good trades to bring in a young star player. I am not talking about dumping Franklin or Winn, but going after someone like Vernon Wells, Mark Teixeira, Andruw Jones, Tori Hunter, Carlos Lee or Aubrey Huff. Obviously, the M’s would have to give up some talent to get one of these guys. But I don’t think that just relying on the free agent market alone is the way forward. I like Beltre as the #1 target in free agency. But beyond that, I would hope that they can make a good trade to bring in some talent.

  31. Bruce on November 6th, 2004 1:04 pm

    #28: The budget isn’t some inherent, external limitation — it’s an expression of the team’s willingness to spend. So if you want to say “the team doesn’t want to allocate enough payroll for a major player”, fine. “Unable” is simply a circular definition.

  32. David J Corcoran on November 6th, 2004 2:02 pm

    Re #30:

    My feeling on a large trade would be whether Nageotte and/or Blackley would still be percieved as “top” pitching prospects.

    I figure anyone can be traded, with the following untouchable list:
    King Felix
    Moyer (because we have to)
    Otherwise, I think anybody else could realistically be traded

    I don’t know who we would acquire. A Mike Sweeney type would scare me, but if Carlos Lee really is on the market, which he may not be, I would be interested.

    i would love to trade for a SS/3B, but I really can’t think of any that may be available. I would love to have a Julio Lugo as Lopez insurance, but there really aren’t many good left-side infielders. Sean Burroughs would be an interesting option at 3rd, but he is most likely not available.

  33. Narcoleptic on November 6th, 2004 2:52 pm

    Hey Jerry, you’re killing me with your posts. Why not start a blog or write a novel. Take some advice from these folks:


  34. Ty on November 6th, 2004 3:18 pm

    Hmmm… I think Delgado is the Marniers best choice for first base. I really hope we can get him. It does look as if Baltimore has the upper-hand, but I have a gut feeling he will be in Seattle.

  35. eponymous coward on November 6th, 2004 4:51 pm

    just something to put out to everyone…..Boone just had laser eye surgery. The same one Glaus had at the beginning of the season. In a contract year i see boone making a huge come back especially if there is some more power in the lineup.

    You mean like how it suddenly turned Jeff Cirillo back into a .300 hitter?


    Contract years also aren’t helping Robby Alomar- who’s clearly a better player than Boone (if a year older).

    No offense taken at your suggestion, but there’s a LOT more to why players decline as they age than just vision. Banking on Lasik is dicey- for instance, Boone’s had some history with back problems, and that was what knocked out his closest comp at around this age (Joe Gordon, according to Baseball Reference). The number of second basemen who sustain greatness well into their mid-30’s is very, very small (look at, say, Joe Morgan, Nellie Fox and Bill Mazeroski, 3 HOF’ers for examples)- even Jeff Kent is showing signs of decline that are being partially masked by playing half his games in Ten-Run Field. I think we have to go INTO the season assuming that if Bret has a season around his career averages and stays in the lineup he’ll be doing decently- not that he’ll suddenly turn back into the 2001-2003 Boone.

  36. Jerry on November 6th, 2004 6:40 pm


    I just hope that Boone can play decently next year. If he can hit .275 and hits at a 30-HR pace, he will become very tradable at the deadline. If the M’s are out of contention, and are willing to eat the remainder of his 2005 contract, he could bring back some prospects from a contender looking for help at 2B. I don’t think that he will repeat his 2001 stats, but I don’t think that the Alomar analogy is a very good one. Very few players have drop-offs in performance like Alomar. He just deteriorated overnight. That has to be the worst-worst-worst case scenario. I don’t think that it is unlikely that he will improve on his 2004 numbers at all. It is just a matter of how much better he does. If the M’s can bring in a few new bats into the lineup, it could help him. He can’t really carry an offense, but might do better as the #5 or #6 hitter.

    At this point, he will be tough to trade without taking back a bad contract. However, if he plays decently, somewhere between 2004 and 2003, he could be movable. Since his contract expires this year, some team might want him as a rental and/or possible re-sign.

    I just hope that the M’s can move him and get something back. It would be worth it even if they have to eat the remainder of his contract.

  37. David J Corcoran on November 6th, 2004 6:53 pm

    Alomar was a HOF lock 3 years ago, now he is nothing. Boone was nothing who became something who is deteriorating back to nothing. Basically, besides 2001-03, he was an average player.

  38. Scraps on November 6th, 2004 11:26 pm

    Alomar is still a HOF lock, or should be. He’s not playing like one any more, of course, but he’s earned his place if the voters are sane.

  39. eponymous coward on November 7th, 2004 1:41 pm

    Oh, I agree. Again, the number of second basemen who can play at their peak levels past about 34-35 is VERY VERY small (let’s see, there’s Eddie Collins, and…um….did I mention Eddie Collins?). Joe Morgan was still a good player after that, because while his power was largely gone and he was hitting .240, he still walked and stole bases- but he wasn’t an MVP candidate any more.

    I don’t even think .275/30 is reasonable for Boone- it’s POSSIBLE but not something I’d bank on. His 162 game career average for stats would be .268/23/94 (Triple Crown) with .327 OBP, .447 SLG, and a .774 OPS. I’d probably take a year like that from him and think we were doing well for a 35 year old 2B. Thing is, a .774 OPS doesn’t belong in your 3/4/5 spot, unless you suck.

    In a walk year, you might get a B-level prospect for that from a contender. Would you get more if you ate the contract and sent along a couple million? Dunno, but I don’t know you’d get a LOT more…

  40. Colm on November 8th, 2004 11:14 pm

    Re #25 & Houston. Ahh, but string bikinis in March… You’re right though, it’s a terrible place.