Madritsch has torn ligament
DMZ · April 10, 2005 at 4:22 pm · Filed Under Mariners
MRI reveals a “small tear in a ligament behind the shoulder” according to the team. Article at MLB.com and elsewhere.
Now, there’s no way to directly blame this on Bob Melvin. Indirectly, of course, one might argue that Melvin’s late-season pointless riding of Madritsch might have something to do with it. No way to know, though. Fortunately, in Hargrove we have a manager well-known for his concern– uh oh.
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49 Responses to “Madritsch has torn ligament”
Of course, we have a deep farm system with plenty of talent just waiting to come up and take over – uh oh.
Ok Mads had existing injury &surgery was over used last year granted; but how does one explain all the injuries to M’s young prospects? Realize there are odds but don’t the M’s seem to suffer more than others? Local papers do not write about other teams farm prospects injuries so perhaps it is out of purportion here.
Will anyone ever divulge the Rett Johnson saga as he looked to be real deal in Everett?
#2: That’s a million-dollar question right there, and it’s one that none of us has the answer to.
Madritsch had major surgery before he became a Mariner. And MANY young pitchers have arm problems. Adam Loewen of Baltimore is one. Out.
Look at all the guys that have had TJ surgery outside of Raffy Soriano.
Matt Morris, Eric Gagne, Mariano Rivera, John Smoltz, Kerry Wood, AJ Burnett…
All have returned to form, with the possible exception of Morris and Gordon. Though both are quality pitchers still.
The shoulder injury is just so much worse.
This tear is likely to end his season and force surgery, which very well may end his career as a starter.
O.K., so I sound like a big nancy-pants but I just feel bad for bobby because he’s been working with every bit of energy he’s got to get where he is (was, until last wednesday) and now this. For his sake, i hope this doesn’t end his career as a starter. To say someone deserves something for their toil is rather trite, but i belive his struggles are real and inspiring and I truly hope the best for him.
babious
Some good news from Tacoma Rainiers site:
“Joel Pineiro, rehabbing a stiff shoulder, was strong for seven innings as Tacoma took the series finale at Fresno, 5-3. Pineiro allowed one run on five hits, walking none and striking out six.”
I got to say I’m pissed, I was pissed last year when Melvin kept him out there time after time.
We should be taking Mads salary out of our settlement with Melvin. That being said BP shouldn’t get a free pass on this one. Granted Mads would never want to leave a game, it’s his make-up what makes him good, but GEESH last season’s work of Mads was a disgrace, our oraginzation has some serious issues as to how we handle pitchers. It’s stupid and we need to get it sorted out.
Melvin’s handling of Mads didn’t cause Bobby’s injury. It may have pushed it up in time, but if he was going to start 30+ games and go 6 ot 7 innings all season, it would have happened eventually, anyways.
If he hadn’t have been a victim of a big shoulder injury before, I might buy the idea that some overwork in a few months of ML pitching might contribute to the cause, but since he has already been thru this, the only thing to blame is luck.
No team, no doctor, no pitching coach, instructor, trainer or magician has found a way to avoid labrum injuries.
Can someone, and I’m not intending this as a commentary, just a question… can someone give me the story on why Bryan Price is considered such a top pitching coach?
Everybody says it, but I’ve not really heard why.
This tear is likely to end his season and force surgery, which very well may end his career as a starter.
What? What possible justification do you have for any of that? It’s not a labrum tear, it’s a torn ligament and not even one in his elbow.
(this assumes we know the full scope of things now, which given the M’s history… may be pushing things)
Melvin’s handling of Mads didn’t cause Bobby’s injury. It may have pushed it up in time, but if he was going to start 30+ games and go 6 ot 7 innings all season, it would have happened eventually, anyways.
You don’t know that. No one knows that. I could say that had Madritsch been held to a nice, reasonable pitch count for his time as a Mariner, he’d be fine today. I’d have just as much evidence as you do.
As for this:
If he hadn’t have been a victim of a big shoulder injury before, I might buy the idea that some overwork in a few months of ML pitching might contribute to the cause, but since he has already been thru this, the only thing to blame is luck.
He’s injured a ligament behind his shoulder before? Really? Because that’d be news to me.
And why do you think that because he’s already been through it, the “only thing to blame is luck”? Do you really think that once someone’s had an injury, there’s no reason to keep that previous injury in mind when considering trying to keep them healthy?
Scar tissue is not as good as real tissue. Once someone’s injured something like their labrum, that joint is never going to be as good and as injury-resistant as it was before. And so and so forth.
Like you said below in the ‘scar tissue’ paragraph, previous injuries weaken the entire area of the joint. Yes, he’s been through this before. Exactly? No. but I have personally torn ligaments in my knee and then years later torn a totally different one and had both doctors tell me that the strength in the knee is not like it used to be, leaving the entire area of my leg more susceptible to injury than prior to the original injury.
–You don’t know that. No one knows that. I could say that had Madritsch been held to a nice, reasonable pitch count for his time as a Mariner, he’d be fine today. I’d have just as much evidence as you do.–
Not even this type of injury is typically caused by a one-time action – it is built up wear and tear on muscles, ligaments, tendons nerves in the area of the injury.
And since when does one not get to speak an opinion without you taking it as if i’m reporting fact? Do I HAVE to say “I THINK”, or “In my opinion” for something I type to be my actual opinion?
I don’t see how this could have been avoided by working him a marginal amount less, at least not as a starter.
–And why do you think that because he’s already been through it, the “only thing to blame is luckâ€Â? Do you really think that once someone’s had an injury, there’s no reason to keep that previous injury in mind when considering trying to keep them healthy?–
The luck part is aimed simply at the system’s history. Madritsch was not part of the system when he had his previous issues with major injury – thus two months in the big leagues doesn’t mean the club’s philosophies with handling pitchers is to blame as far as Madritsch is concerned.
And of course there is reason to keep a previous injury in mind? But how do you know they did or didn’t? I’m just saying it wasn’t a philosophical issue within the organization that hurt Madritsch. That is my opinion and I don’t see how there could be any blame on this issue due to the fact that he’s been hurt before and like DMZ says, there is no evidence in that direction, either.
–Scar tissue is not as good as real tissue. Once someone’s injured something like their labrum, that joint is never going to be as good and as injury-resistant as it was before. And so and so forth.–
Of course. Did I say something that suggested otherwise? If I did, I don’t see where I did, and I sure wouldn’t have said that on purpose.
Joints are weak as it is. Damaged joints really never get back to 100% – it’s very rare, at least.
Right now we’ve only got enough info about Bobby’s shoulder to scare us mightily. And I am mighty scared. So for now I can only think good thoughts on his behalf, a few disappointed ones on my behalf (nothing in comparison to his, I’m sure), and wonder what this means for our pitching in the short term. Is Franklin the de facto replacement, is that not even open for discussion? And what does that mean for the pen? …and,….I reeeeeeeeally don’t wanna go here, but,…. what if Mads is out for longer than the short-term?
I don’t see selling the farm (or mortgaging some other inappropriate piece of property) to get a pitcher right away, because I agree with those who’ve said that 2005 is not necessarily our year to contend. Sure, this is baseball, anything can happen, I’m on board with that, Really! But not exactly holding my breath in anticipation of contending this year. Might a longer term absence of Bobby sort of jump-start the much heralded, but still apparently only a glimmer in someone’s eye, addressing of the pitching situation?
jonathan-
I agree, we might really see what the brass do when things look ugly. And, this time I really do believe their choice might have something meaningful to do with whether or not we contend in one or two years.
babious
Is Franklin the de facto replacement, is that not even open for discussion?
I don’t see any evidence that Baek or (especially) Campillo (I say especially because Baek has a bit more of a fastball and might be a bit different, stylistically- Campillo and Franklin strike me as 88 MPH throwing control artists who come at you with different pitches) would be dramatic improvements. We’d be doing pretty damn well if we got 200 IP and a 4.25 ERA out of them- which is Ryan Franklin as a starter.
The only guy who’d be an improvement is King Felix, who you aren’t going to see before September unless he sets the PCL on its’ collective ear for a couple of months, and maybe not even then.
And since when does one not get to speak an opinion without you taking it as if i’m reporting fact? Do I HAVE to say “I THINKâ€Â, or “In my opinion†for something I type to be my actual opinion?
Um, you don’t, but then you can fairly expect that people, like me, are going to get overly excited when they read it. Saying without “I think” in this case implies something much more serious about Madritsch’s health than I think you meant to imply, or that you misunderstood the nature of the available news.
Here’s a perfect example — if I said “Sexson’s shoulder is going to blow out and end his career as a regular player,” people would flip out over it and rightly so. If I said “I’m worried that…” it’s an entirely different thing.
No insights on why conventional wisdom has Bryan Price as a great pitching coach?
So much for that “lucky” medicine wheel tattoo on Bobby’s neck. In interviews he talked about how he’d gotten the tattoo after his injury and he’s been healthy ever since…
“No insights on why conventional wisdom has Bryan Price as a great pitching coach?”
1. Younger than 45
2. Safeco Field
3. Only Rizz, Jim Street, and BP’s brother actually use the term ‘great’
4. Conventional Wisdom is utterly value-less
Good thing Gil Meche is still healt- uh-oh.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/219626_mari11.html
Pitching coach Bryan Price believes Meche might be letting the inflammation affect him mentally as well as physically, influencing his velocity.
“We want to get him where he feels 100 percent healthy, and he can just go out there with his regular stuff every day,” Price said. “He shouldn’t have to be getting through a stiff elbow, not this early in the year. We are going to find a way to remedy that.”
Price and Hargrove plan to talk about their options for the starting rotation, already depleted with left-hander Bobby Madritsch on the disabled list, tomorrow during a rare mid-series off day in Kansas City.
Meche, who now has a 7.88 ERA in his two losses, said he had some nagging and lingering problems in his arm and elbow throughout spring training. He called it an inflammation in his triceps tendon, where it connects to the bone.
“But it’s nothing to worry about. I’m just not getting it done on the mound,” he said.
In both of his starts, Meche has started well over the first few innings, only to falter the second or third time through the batting order. He said the physical trouble seems to “slowly come on.”
“It seems like when my pitch count gets up, things kind of fall apart a little bit,” he said. “I don’t know if it’s a matter of me getting tired or losing focus, or whatever it is.
“It’s something I’ve got to pay attention to and try to correct it.”
Ya know, at this rate, we could end up with a rotation of:
Moyer
Franklin
Campillo
Sele
Villone
by June. Wow, a rotation where NOBODY has a 90 MPH fastball. Un-freaking-believable.
Maybe if the M’s don’t appear to have a realistic chance in the pennant race by that point they should trade Booney to a contender for a young pitcher.
Why is there an excuse everytime Meche pitches badly? When is it time to throw him into the Esteban Loiza file of unfullfilled potential?
If this is the deal with Meche, at the very least shouldn’t the team’s logical response be: hey, he has problems after a certain pitch count, so let’s move him to the bullpen to save him. I realize this weakens the rotation because Villone or Thornton then become possible starters, but jeez, listen to the man’s arm and check out the results. It doesn’t sound like he should be throwing starters’ pitch counts. I’m dismayed as well by Price’s rather non-medical notion that he has to get over the “mental” aspect of what is an admitted physical problem. One thing I’ve never understood is how slow the Mariners are to get their pitchers’ arms checked out. Remember Soriano?
Re: #9 – Why is BP considered a top pitching coach?
My memory has faded too much to remember specifics, but I remember the pitching was truly awful for a couple of years before Price moved up to the Mariners. I mean, we may bitch and moan now, but I think it really pathetic then. The conventional wisdom at the time was that Pinella was much too hard on the pitchers and he had them all pitching scared, sort of like the basketball player who knows he’ll be pulled if he misses a shot. The last few pitching coaches had all been Pinella’s “guys”, and it didn’t seem that they could stand up to him.
After Price arrived, the pitching improved dramatically. The story making the rounds then was that Price commanded enough respect to buffer the players from Pinella. In any case, we started pitching and sounding like a major league staff again.
BTW, I understand that we rode Madritsch hard last year, but it’s not as if the Mariners were unwilling to shut down players last year. Bucky, Sherril, and Pineiro were all put on the shelf. So, who knows what went on with Bobby, but it doesn’t seem like the M’s were just a bunch of short-sighted jerks.
#24- In 1999, under Stan Williams, the M’s pitching was at the bottom of the AL, including sitting 13th with a 5.28 ERA — they were 6.67 at the Dome, and 4.01 in the 2nd half, when they were both playing in Safeco, and Price was the acting pitching coach (mid-year Williams had his knee scoped, Price filled in for him, and when Williams came back from his surgery they kept Price on “to assist Williams”. The general consensus is that Price ran the staff from then on.) In 2000 (Price’s first official year) the club made a 0.75 runs per game improvement in staff ERA and followed that with a 0.95 runs per game improvement in 2000.
how do you quantify how much was Safeco & how much was Price? I don’t know. A few early articles:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/08/08/SP64395.DTL
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/thiel/thie1315.shtml
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=4008625&date=20000306&query=%22Price+might+just+be+right+for+M%27s+pitchers%22
So… Meche, Madritsch, and Pineiro all hurt after being Melvinized while BP stood and watched. I really don’t think we can attribute this to luck or coincidence anymore. The Ms system, from bottom to top, is a wood-chipper for arms. Meanwhile, our division rivals manage to get 4 or 5 great, cheap years out of their home-grown talent (hudson, mulder, zito) and continue to bring successul, healthy, pitchers through the system (harden, with blanton soon to follow).
I think Brian Price should be fired. Maybe he did a good job of preventing Lou from mentally abusing our young pitchers, but that era is over. The Ms need to focus on a system-wide renovation of their pitching philosophy vis a vis health.
Thought I’d just quote Will Carroll in today’s Under the Knife column at Baseball Prospectus, because I think it sums up what most of us are feeling:
“Bobby Madritsch learned that his medicine wheel tattoo isn’t enough to save him from whatever seems to attack all promising young Mariners pitchers. Madritsch has a torn shoulder capsule and will need surgery that will end his 2005. He’ll have a second opinion, hoping that he’ll hear a diagnosis that doesn’t involve the business end of a scalpel. The M’s are going to have to get serious about figuring out exactly what’s going on. It’s one thing for me to sit here making guesses in my column. For the M’s, this is win-or-lose serious and I hope something’s going on internally.”
I’m not sure how much he knows about the situation, but Will Carroll says that Madritsch will need surgery and miss the rest of the year.
…er, there you go. Read #27.
It seems the Rangers did beat the Mariners in the free agent pitcher department. I couldn’t help but notice Astacio’s line Saturday at Safeco:
7.0 6 2 2 0 7 0 2.57
That’s right, a starting pitcher who threw seven innings with seven strikeouts and no walks. Or home runs. Yeah, small sample size.
Rizzs, that intrepid reporter, heard from Tom Grieve that the Rangers have a difficult time getting free agent pitchers to come to Arlington. It seems the Mariners could have done worse than to entice Astacio to come to Safeco. I know he has had injury problems, but his price tag wasn’t exhorbitant ($800,000 base salary and incentives that could push his 2005 compensation to the $2.5 million range). He’s 35 with a history of shoulder injury and some tough numbers posted in Denver, but as a one-year stopgap until all the other rotation questions were answered (so far the overall news isn’t good) he might have been a decent pickup to help get the team through 2005. At the very least, he seems to have a lot more juice than Aaron Sele (when was the last time Sele had a line like that?). Too late now, but I wouldn’t mind Astacio pitching a few games for the M’s this year at the Safe instead of doing it for a division rival. Did Bavasi fall asleep on this one?
I just want to make it clear that I don’t think Pedro Astacio is not going to post lines like Saturday’s all year (though wouldn’t it be nice of one Mariner starter did?), and he was never the only answer to getting the Mariners through this year. I just think the price ended up being pretty cheap, all things considered, and if he was willing to sign in Arlington, why not Seattle where he would have a decent chance at taking advantage of the ballpark? I think he is better than Sele, but his limited innings over the past few years may have made it difficult to judge him over the winter.
In making myself clear, I muddled the first sentence of previous post. I don’t think Astacio will post a bunch of starts like Saturday’s. He’s got more than Sele so far, though.
#31– because Texas would give him a major league contract:
“Originally, Texas had hoped to sign Astacio to a minor league contract with a major league spring training invitation, but competition from other clubs — including Seattle and Pittsburgh — persuaded the Rangers to give him a guaranteed major league contract. Astacio will earn a base salary of $800,000, but it is a contract heavily laden with incentives, and he could earn up to $2.5 million if he makes 30 starts and pitches 200 innings.”
Carroll’s story, obviously, differs substantially from what’s been put out there, both in severity and outcome (will require surgery, will end his season) and in specifics.
Which is to say that we don’t know. If you believe the Mariners, Madritsch will put the arm in a sling for three weeks (and be allowed to throw, which is… odd) and then go through more tests to see if it healed.
So more news shouldn’t be longer than three weeks out.
It somehow seems slightly amazing to me that just one year ago we were excited about the surplus of young pitching in the system. Remember how we coyuldn’t wait to see what Clint Nageotte and Travis Blackley would do?
As for Madritsch, we clearly have trouble with the “time will tell” concept. Ask yourself how many intial projections for how much time a player would lose to injury actually turned out to be the case.
Why is there an excuse everytime Meche pitches badly? When is it time to throw him into the Esteban Loiza file of unfullfilled potential?
When the M’s have a surplus of pitchers with 95 MPH fastballs with no injury history?
Look, right now the organization’s approach to pitching health has the appearance of Russian Roulette (this week, it’s Gil and Bobby’s turn to have a bullet in the chamber). Unless you’re fond of watching AAAA pitchers with batting practice 88 MPH stuff…
Re: (16) THE BRIAN PRICE REPUTATION – IMO, Price is a decent pitching coach, but great? Only here. (Here, where a mediocrity can’t tie his shoelace without a Mariner spokesman going into heat.) When FREDDY was on the market, posters from at least a half-dozen newsgroups gloated about how well Freddy would prosper in the hands of THEIR pitching coach.
Re(# 24)PRICE’s EARLY MARINER HISTORY – Those are my recollections too. Most ikmportantly, like BILLY CONNORS before him, Price served as a buffer between the pitchers and the manager.
Re:(# 27) MARINER ORGANIZATION EXAMINING ITS TREATMENT OF PITCHERS – It’s worse than that. As Ben Ramm said on the Mariner Newsgroup, some time ago, too much money is invested in pitchers to treat them so casually. (We’ve just seen a pitcher get released–because of pitching arm injuries–who many thought would be the first choice in the draft.)The problem calls for a much wider investigation than the Ms sitting down and wondering what’s wrong. I think we have a MLB problem, and that they should convene an expert panel to look into the matter. The “he’s ours” attitude is long past.
Check out this story on why 100 MPH is the natural limit for how past a pitcher can throw. http://slate.msn.com/id/2116402/
Key line: “The reason pitchers get injured in the first place is that their muscles, tendons, and ligaments weren’t as strong as they should have been.”
The number of injuries the Mariners pitchers have suffered CANNOT be chance. Can anyone name another club, and any point in history, that has suffered this many injuries to their pitching staff? There must be something going wrong with the way our guys are preparing.
All I know is without Piniero, and perhaps even with him, this organization is now fielding quite possibly the worst 5 man rotation in the AL and perhaps even in MLB. It’s beyond coincidence that the Ms have had all these injuries…it’s bordering on systematic pitcher abuse throughout their minor league system.
Well there doesn’t seem to be an exact consensus on what Mad’s injury is, but if its just a ligament, he’ll be fine. Although the whole allowing him to throw is just silly and will slow the healing process. Also 3 weeks is probably a little quick for fully healing a torn ligament. If it is just a ligament tear, I’d expect him to be out 4-6 weeks, based on my prior experience with those injuries (which usually do not require surgery). Although who knows, Mad’s really wants to play badly and may cut his therapy short.
Is it beyond coincidence? What percentage of Mariners pitchers have had lost years, compared to other organizations? I have no idea, and I’ve never seen anyone with actual evidence. Sure, it looks like the Mariners have been awful with young pitching, but it might just look that way to us because we pay a lot more attention to them. I’d love to see actual injury data.
I guess the Cubbies would offer Wood and Prior as Prosecution Exhibit A. In those cases, especially with Wood, what they did to those guys was almost criminal: assault with a thoughtless management philosophy.
I follow baseball fairly closely, though I’m certainly no expert, and I can’t think of another club where seemingly EVERY prospect in the organization has had their arms explode. Actual data would be really helpful.
The Ms might be suffering from a run of bad luck for which we can’t blame the Ms pitching coaches. Then again, staying healthy is as much skill as it is luck. It is the coaches’ job to teach that skill. We might also be suffering from drafting so many players out of high school rather than drafting pitchers out of college — but only out of colleges where you know they weren’t treated like rented mules.
Instead of questioning the team’s pitching coach or physician, has anybody thought of questioning the trainers? If I’m not mistaken, one of whom is Rick Griffin–and I’m sure there are others. Perhaps it’s poor physical training and conditioning that’s causing these pitchers to drop like flies. That would seem most logical to me, at least.
It would be great if USSM could dedicate an entire post to this problem and the possible causes of it–and how it relates to other clubs in the league.
Another possibility that one has to wonder about is whether or not it could be a certain supplement these players are all taking, in correlation to their training.
What possible supplement could Mariner pitchers be taking that
– causes ligament and labrum tears
– didn’t get caught in the minor league drug testing program, which is way more expansive and has been in place for much longer than the major league one and
– didn’t get caught in the major league testing (Madritsch only)
?
I’m not educated at all on the subject (of supplements at least), so that was nothing more than a guess. I thought it might be a possibility but I guess I was wrong.
The best bet is that the problem cannot be traced to a single thing. Most likely, it comes from some combination of bad luck and bad practice. The bad practice part, rather than being anyone’s fault, is more likely just a lack of consistent organizational direction. Because of the way the FO has been run over the past several years, the Ms have not had a strong, progressive, organizational philosophy in place. That’s what it takes to instill the proper skills, habits, and knowledge in trainers, players, and coaches, in order to avoid injury. It’s what Oakland has done, for example, with their “pre-hab” training. The Ms would be wise to pick an organization that has a strong system on the medical side, and emulate it. This will probably involve firing pitching coaches, trainers, and any other old-schoolers who resist a strict, top-down philosophical shift.
Now Meche… sheesh.
You know, I think the Mariners need to think way, way, way outside of the box. What if you bagged the whole idea of “Starter†in the minor league ranks? You make the decision.. as of today, no pitcher in our farm system will ever pitch more than 3 innings in one outing. Period. We won’t sacrifice building arm strength, but we’ll do it in different ways. Guys will get a chance to throw high impact pitches for 3 innings, and in between appearances we’ll have unique arm building throwing sessions so that arms are strengthened without adding unnecessary injury risk. Once promoted to the big leagues, no one gets to start a game until he’s 25 years old. Yes, they languish in the bullpen ala Johan Santana, but them’s the breaks. Once they hit 25 they get to show their stuff as a starter. This really isn’t that radical. The Twins just did this with arguably a Top 5 MLB pitcher. The Angels could have done this with FRod, but instead have given him the closer role. There is no doubt FRod could be a dominating starter. These young arm injuries are simply a fire alarm that is being ignored. And this fire is burning so hot it could prevent the M’s from challenging for the World Series for the next 10 years.
Re: ARM INJURIES to mlb and MLB PITCHERS, ESPECIALLY to MARINER ORGANIZATION PITCHERS –
BP’s Will Carroll has studied this matter extensively. Perhaps he has some data that he would share with us. Perhaps one of the editorial staff of USS MARINER can ask him.
[The data I’m talking about is the number of lost starts (starters) or pitching days (relievers) throughout the organizaton in the last (let’s say) three/five years.]
________
*My bad if that data is in his recent SAVING THE PITCHER, a book I expect to obtain very soon. (It was sitting on the shelf of the Shoreline Library.)