Reese still out, other stuff
Seattle PI and others report that Pokey Reese’s arm is still sore. He’s headed back to Seattle for further examination. In the same notebook, the PI also talks to Nelson about his lack of work —
“I could use more work, but I think it’s tough for them right now,” Nelson said. “For me to be really helping the team in short relief, I need to pitch more, but I think the same can be said for Shiggy (Shigetoshi Hasegawa) and J.J. (Putz).
“It’s tough for them right now with 12 pitchers and the starting pitchers getting deeper into games. But it’s tough, too, to have to come into a critical situation when you haven’t pitched in four or five games.”
This, folks, is why the 12-man pitching staff is pointless. You don’t think the M’s could use some random AAA all-hit bat on the bench instead of having three, four right-handed relievers biting each other for table scrap innings?
But then, if Choo is up and they’re not going to even try to use him, what’s the point in caring either way?
Incidentally, touching on an issue that came up in discussing Strong’s suspension, the Times had this in Finnigan’s article:
The eight other Seattle players, including catcher Ryan Christianson, were suspended for 15 days because that is the policy regarding minor-leaguers. Strong’s penalty was less severe because he is on the Mariners’ 40-man roster.
And in the PI piece:
The major league program calls for a 10-day suspension for a first offense. For purposes of the testing, Strong is considered a major leaguer even though he’s playing for Tacoma because he’s on the 40-man roster.
It was cool to see both papers offer a reasonably succinct explanation of why Strong’s supsension was 10-day. The PI also gets mixed up on the game/day length of the suspension on the first mention, but they’re not the only people — I have trouble remembering that the ML one is 10 days but the minor league one is 15 games.
Comments
70 Responses to “Reese still out, other stuff”
Well, since Reese is out, do the M’s stick with Valdez, who has done a decent Pokey impersonation, get another SS, or eventually promote Lopez when he is healed and ready.
And on Christianson, is he strictly DHing, or is he catching some games? It would be awfully nice if he could replace Wilson next year.
Pokey….I’ve been frustrated with him since spring training. I think at the time of signing he was a good risk, but time has offered a different look. He may have a great glove, but it means nothing if you cant get it on the field. I’m also glad that Valdez was picked up dispite my groaning about it. I really wanted Lopez playing short, though I now think it was best that I didn’t get what I wanted.
So when, or if, Pokey gets healthy, should he be handed the job? Do you give the spot to Pokey just because he’s Pokey? That was my gripe about him in spring training. He wasn’t doing anything to show he deserved the nod. Lopez smoked him. Valdez has played a good defensive short, and may have more to his bat. Do you really just release him when you cant count on Pokey? Do you put Valdez on the bench while Pokey figures out how to play again? Am I alone in my frustration here? Am I missing something?
Ok, I feel better now.
I’d imagine the M’s will stick with Valdez. They seem more impressed than they should be, but I don’t think he’s a gigantic dropoff from Pokey. I’d rather have him playing everyday than Santiago or Bloomie, that’s for sure.
Also, I thought Ryan’s days as a catcher were over, but he did start behind the dish last night.
I meant to say stick with Valdez until Pokey is ready, but when Pokey’s back I think you have to play him. His glove is too good to bench. But there’s no way I’d cut Valdez loose when Pokey gets back. You never know how soon you’ll need him again.
Can we hope that a healthy Reese and a productive Valdez would result in a dumping of Bloomie … you gotta ahve hope!
I doubt there are any shortstops on the market that would be much of an improvement for Valdez that wouldn’t cost the team way too much (both now and in future, more important years). The position just isn’t loaded talent. We knew there wasn’t going to be much offense coming from there, and it’s probably time for the team to just suck it up and accept that the defense won’t be quite as spectacular as planned.
If they make any trades I think I would rather see improvement in the pitching rotation, unless someone handed them an incredible deal…Tejada for Ibanez, of course you do that in a heartbeat. But the deals we could find would be, at the absolute best, probably be more like Tejada for Beltre, or Berroa for Winn. Even those would probably be very optimistic.
How about Boone for a pitching prospect … thats probably all we’d get unless he starts tearing it up. Ibanez would probably pull in the most; he is quietly being productive AND because he lacks defensive value he *could* be replaced with a farm guy who is hitting reasonably well. If the M’s were contending this year, I would probably hold on to him, however.
This, folks, is why the 12-man pitching staff is pointless. You don’t think the M’s could use some random AAA all-hit bat on the bench instead of having three, four right-handed relievers biting each other for table scrap innings?
It’s because managers think “OMG what happens if I have a short start and an extra inning game! My bullpen will be screwed! Plus whatever will I do if I can’t have 4 different pitchers I can use to go righty-lefty-righty-lefty?” (We can thank Tony LaRussa for that last one).
The obsession with R/L bullpen pitching matchups drives me nuts- because a good RHP in your bullpen typically performs BETTER against LHBs than a mediocre LHP, AND the extra pitchers in your bullpen mean you don’t have pinch hitters or platoon partners- and platoon advantage is MUCH easier to have by replacing hitters at the plate as opposed to pitchers on the mound. Oh, and it totally bogs ballgames down during the 17 pitching changes we see per game.
To sum up: please, God, let some manager win with platooning and a 10 man bullpen again, so everyone can copy HIM…
The real question why did we spend a million on pokey when he has been on the dl every year and he is on it again?BAD MOVE….s money away at crap from other clubs but wouldnt give lopez the oppurtunity i dont understand this thinking.Unless chinsley i been bavasai thought through some smoke infected haze that this club could win……HAH and if he thought that the city and franschise is in trouble with this guy leading the way.Lopez is the best position player prospect in the system why not give him the oppurtunity?They called him up last year and he did ok .The things people dont remember is that he was just coming off the dl 9 days earlier in tacoma so he was just getting readjusted.This club id the pitching will be exposed soon …ahhh jc your so negative..NO IM JUST A REALIST…I would love the mariners to win the series but for the last time i will ever say this and all mariner fans thsat have watched all the homerun hitters come and go PITCHING WINS WORLD SERIES NOT HOMERUN HITTERS ….
I would love to see Boone for a good prospect if we didn’t include cash (not that they would use the cash to improve the team, since it would vanish at the end of the year). Of course, then I would end up eating my words when he started tearing it up in whatever bandbox he ended up in.
#9 – Pitching may win more games than hitting, especially in the playoffs. But in order to worry about the playoffs, we’ve got to get there first. There was no way that we were getting there with the anemic hitting that we saw from the 2004 incarnation of the Mariners. The Mariners had many holes to fill on both the hitting side and pitching side in the offseason. They had so many holes that there was really no realistic way that they could’ve addressed everything in one offseason. This offseason, they focused on the big sluggers. I suspect that they’ll win somewhere between 75-85 games this year, then go after some pitching in the offseason in order to take the next step…
JC,
Would you mind punctuating your posts from now on?
Also, the “pitching wins championships” mantra is a myth.
In regard to addressing the pitching needs, the “big-time” free agent pitchers from this past offseason were given contracts that the M’s were wise to avoid. I know that Sexson’s deal seems overpriced, but he is more of a bargain than Jaret Wright.
I would love the mariners to win the series but for the last time i will ever say this and all mariner fans thsat have watched all the homerun hitters come and go PITCHING WINS WORLD SERIES NOT HOMERUN HITTERS
Boston was 11th in ERA last year in MLB. Want to bet what boston led MLB in last year? OBP and SLG.
The playoffs are so short they’re a crapshoot. Horrible pitching will wash you out quick, but then so will anemic offense (see the Twins in recent years).
#8 … I think you’re onto something … however, could the M’s pull it off with the “talent” that they have now? I do see your point, you’d like SOMEONE to pull it off SOMEWHERE. It would be nice to see.
#12 Dave – I’d say that you need at least league-average pitching in order to win championships. I’m pretty glad that the M’s didn’t really get serious about signing any of the past offseason’s free agent pitchers.
I started looking up stats for some of those pitchers (Pavano, Wright, Lowe, Millwood, Clement)so far this year and came away pretty unimpressed. The pitching market was artificially high this past offseason for some reason and (for once) the front office was wise in abstaining from the bidding wars.
We knew Pokey would spend some time on the DL when we got him. It just looks bad now because he’s getting in all his DL time at the start of the season.
That doesn’t make it a bad move. We paid for 100 games of good glove, with a chance for more and a chance for less.
#17 – I think the “natives are getting restless” regarding Pokey because we have yet to see a real return on our investment. I also think that people are a bit miffed about the Pokey signing because they feel like we have a reasonable facsimile of Pokey out in the field already in Valdez, for a fraction of the price.
Not having seen Pokey too much in person or on TV, I’ll withold any comparisons between his defense and Valdez. In terms of hitting, however, I think we’re getting a very similar hitting line from Valdez as what we would have expected from Pokey..
Boston was 11th in ERA last year in MLB.
That’s rather disingenuous, considering the NL doesn’t have a DH. The Red Sox were third in the AL in ERA, fourth in the AL in runs allowed.
Teams with horrible pitching don’t win championships. Teams with horrible hitting don’t, either. Championship teams can score and keep the other team from scoring. One is not more important than the other.
#14 – While it is important to note that Boston was 11th in ERA last year, it’s also important to note that they also had an ace (Schilling) and an “ace light” in Pedro Martinez. Since each of those pitchers would theoretically pitch twice (if not 3 times) in a 7 game series, I think that would conceivably lower the team ERA during the playoffs.
That said, I haven’t looked up their team ERA during the playoffs and compared to the regular season, but I would expect it to be considerably lower based on the higher likelihood of a Schilling or Martinez pitching in the game.
I think that a playoff-caliber team can survive with mediocre to below-average pitching during the regular season, but in the playoffs they must get stronger performances in order to win a championship.
Dave you’re right, was being quick and dirty and forgot about the fact that ERA is about .5 off between leagues. Mostly wanted to highlight the fact that they were probably there more because they tore the cover off the ball than because they had the best pitching.
Oakland and Atlanta recently are two other examples of getting there on pitching and finding out it isn’t enough. Of course, Anaheim’s offense in 2002 wasn’t all that great, if I remember correctly.
In regards to the 12-man staff, I think it presents another second-order problem. If you have a short bench you are probably less likely to make a change for fear that you’re going to run out of replacements. Just a thought … it could explain why Choo hasn’t seen action.
Is it 15-day or 15-game? 10-day or 10-game?
Also, home run hitters don’t necessarily equal great offense, which would especially be true in the playoffs if they’re just guys who tee off on bad pitches. A team could have two or three guys hitting 25-35 HR with .300 OBP and still have a crappy offensive team if they’ve got nobody to drive in.
#22 — Hargrove seems to be pretty set on an everyday lineup that does not require the need to pinch-hit. Only Olivo/Wilson and Valdez would be lifted for PH.
And while I disagree with a decision to carry 12 pitchers, I will give Hargrove (and the defense) credit for getting pretty good performances thusfar from a mediocre pitching staff.
#17
Pokey was signed before Valdez. I think you may have meant Lopez.
I had no problem with Pokeys Contract. I think its a pretty good deal IF he gets healthy and can contribute. My problem with him now is that he has not been a part of the team. He has not played a game. So IF he can get healthy, why should it be a given that he is going to get the starting job at SS? Valdez, while not a future star, has performed better than I had expected. I think he has been atleast as good as what I expected from Pokey. So why would you want to give the spot back to Pokey when he hasn’t done any work to deserve it? Especially when he wont contribute any more than Valdez, who is already adjusted to playing with the infielders around him. It’s reasonable to assume that Pokey will take time to get back to his old self. So you take a step back for a period of time to gain back no more than you already have. There are certain players out there that you give the job back to simply because they are who they are. I dont think Pokey is that kind of player.
OK, to sum it up, I dont see the benefit of playing Pokey. None.
#25 … I agree. However, if, and I said IF, there were someone on the bench who could hit the snot out of the ball the story would be different. As the M’s roster sits now, we are looking at pinch hitting with someone who is mediocre.
Sorry #17…I meant #18 when opening #26.
yes, the 12-man pitching staff is pointless…but a 5-man bench would be just as pointless right now.
Bloomquist is the only bench player that sees action with any frequency.
my question right now is: why is Choo even with the major league club right now? having him with the team just sitting on the bench is not doing the Mariners any good…and is certainly not in Choo’s best interests.
the way Grover has managed so far, he doesn’t use/need a 25-man roster.
Doyle would probably be better served on the M’s than Choo, but he just returned from injury when Choo was called up. If Spiezio is down for a while, I would hope that the M’s swap Doyle and Choo. (I also hope that Spiezio is down for a while.)
And a healthy Bucky would give greater bench options to Hargrove.
Does ANYBODY know what Bucky status is?
I can see it now. Bottom of the 9th, bases loaded, Mariano Rivera on the mound for The Devil. You hear over the loudspeaker, “Now pinch hitting for shortstop Wilson Valdez is ______”. The crowd goes silent, you can hear crickets chirping.
I hope this isn’t off topic, but to answer an earlier question. The minor league drug policy is stricter than the major league policy (15 days versus 10, more drugs tested, etc.) “cuz of da union.” The minor leaguers don’t have the MLB Players Association “looking out for their interests” like those in The Show do.
#9: Johnny Damon, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz and Mark Bellhorn say Hi.
Well, right now Im torn on this issue. Yeah, the 12 man pitching staff means that a few of our pitchers are underutilized, but of the 4 bench players we have, how many have seen used as frequently as the relief pitchers? I’m not saying that the 12 man staff is the correct way to go, but if Hargrove isn’t going to USE the bench players for anything but pinch hitters and spot fillers anyway, what’s the point of having another bench guy?
I agree that having someone like “Doyle”, a stronger slugging righty would be good to match what we’re getting from Dobbs, over Bloomquist, but until those situations come up, what do we have to a use for anybody else for?
Besides, I have a feeling they’re waiting for either Spiezio or Reese to get the “ok” from the doctors. Whomever comes back first will knock Chooie back down to Tacoma. As for our pitchers, who can you send down to Tacoma without losing them? It’s a little harder right now, with our options, to just shank a pitcher. Injury looks like the only way we’re going to cut down to an 11 man pitching staff (no jinz no jinx no jinx no jinx)
I totally agree — the team’s seemingly playing with a 23-man roster now… why waste Choo’s time? Why not put that dude who handmakes every one of Ichiro’s batting gloves on the roster instead?
33. Not quite.
The minor-league suspension is 15 games.
The major-league suspension is 10 days.
The game/day distinction is important.
I assume if they got rid of a pitcher it would be one of the righthanders — Mateo, Shiggy, Nelson or Putz. I would be inclined to dump Nelson if you had to get rid of one of them.
It’s not a problem, though. It’s just a matter of time before somebody else gets a strained flexor bundle and goes on the DL.
TIF,
Doyle’s a lefty.
Is anyone else bothered by the way the whole Reese thing has been handled? At no point during his troubles in spring training did I read that his condition had actually been diagnosed. Now it is news that he’s going to see Pedegana. It just baffles me, if the timeline is correct, that they have waited until now to thoroughly examine him and have basically let him decide when he’s ready to throw, how much, etc. It seems exceedingly old school and, as I’ve posted before, I would not be surprised if they find a pitcher-type injury that keeps him out for a good long time. Does anyone else have better information on their evaluation of his injury during spring training? I bugged me then, and it bugs me more now. Not the way to spend $1-2 million.
Thanks for the catch, Evan. I was just trying to explain why the policy for the major leagues is weaker than that for the minor leagues.
I just want to add that the Reese situation reminds me of the Meche injury a couple of years back and the Soriano problem last year, where the team seemed to prescribe “rest ‘n’ rehab” without actually coming up with a clear diagnosis. Am I off on this, and is this a problem?
What were the PECOTA projections for the dude who handmakes Ichiro!’s batting gloves?
I don’t think having Choo on the team is entirely a wash. Granted I would love him to have at-least a few at-bats, but I don’t think it’s a complete waste.
He’s getting Major League experience. He’s figuring out where to go and what to do. When he ends up getting called up to to play everyday, he won’t be so wide-eyed. This will make his transition a good bit easier.
Like I said, I would like to see him have some ABs, but to say that this “is certainly not in Choo’s best interests” isn’t necessarily true.
Love the flexor bundle comment as it is the injury of the hour; not to lecture you but let’s also try to remember, as far as injury treatment goes, that the club is only using the very most recent research which many of you aren’t aware of. The team is admirably jumping into the process of “honoring” injuries as recently outlined in the New Journal of Medicine. That’s how far ahead of the rest of MLB that we really are, folks.
What were the PECOTA projections for the dude who handmakes Ichiro!’s batting gloves?
Well, if he plays as much as Choo does, it doesn’t really matter, does it? We could add the Moose to the roster for all that’s worth.
And we all knew going in Hargrove doesn’t use his bench a lot. This bench doesn’t give him a lot of reason to, either. That is the one thing about Lou- he usually got SOME usage out of bench players…
#44
I think that the negligible benefits of having him learn where to go etc. is negated by using up one of his options – if he just sits around and they then send him down that is just poor management plain and simple IMHO.
I just want to add that the Reese situation reminds me of the Meche injury a couple of years back and the Soriano problem last year, where the team seemed to prescribe “rest ‘n’ rehab†without actually coming up with a clear diagnosis. Am I off on this, and is this a problem?
If it was somebody other than Reese I might be bothered by this. Because it’s Reese I don’t particularly care. Valdez certainly isn’t the defender Reese is but it isn’t that big of a deal.
Re 39,
D’OH!
I knew that. I did. And forgot it, apparently.
Well…
Dobbs or “Doyle” or both? I’ll take both. Having more left handed bats is never bad. I think that “Doyle” is more MLB ready then Chooie is. In either case, I’d like to see them get more ABs at least.
By the way as far as flexor bundles are concerned, here is a 2004 article from the American Journal of Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation about a college pitcher with this injury which attributes the injury to “underlying core musculature weakness and improper throwing mechanics”.
http://www.amjphysmedrehab.com/pt/re/ajpmr/fulltext.00002060-200401000-00015.htm;jsessionid=CwCT1o9ptZAArWbNR7PmeQa2uA1yT1nUNKFLJ6mlfcjh7LB7xYmD!2112422791!-949856031!9001!-1
#45 Too bad they are behind the rest of the MLB on preventing these things from happening.
I think that the negligible benefits of having him learn where to go etc. is negated by using up one of his options
The team already used an option year on Choo when he was sent to Tacoma prior to the start of the year. Having him sit on the bench doesn’t effect his option status at all. He is accumulating service time towards arbitration and free agency, but likely not enough to matter.
Dobbs or “Doyle†or both? I’ll take both. Having more left handed bats is never bad.
Neither. Dobbs is awful, awful, awful, and Doyle needs to just play regularly for 4 months.
There’s also no point in having any more lefty hitting outfielders. The team could use a RH lefty masher like Marcus Thames in a pretty bad way, though.
I think Hargrove has been trying to put Choo in games but every time he does Baylor just says “gesundheit”.
Thanks folks. I’ll be here all week.
We all knew the bench was going to be a major weak spot going into the season, why all the grief now that they’re not getting enough use? As far as I’m concerned, the less use this bench gets, the better.
If a RHP out of the ‘pen were cut loose, who could be called up that would fill a hole that actually needs filling? Doyle might see some action, but he would replace Choo. If Leone is called up, he just replaces Dobbs. IOW, sure, there are guys who fills holes better than what is being used right now, but they already have a backup at every position (thank you Willie), and, Twins philosophy aside, carrying a #3 catcher or a #5 outfielder or any other deep, deep backups is no better than carrying a 12th pitcher.
When Bucky is well, there will be a spot to carry a full-time power PH/DH type, but since there’s really nobody else in the system suited to that role, it’ll have to wait.
#1. It is obvious NO ONE knows what is going on with Pokey, it is increasingly looking like he and Bobby M. will be bunkmates down in Arizona rehabbing until 2006. #2. Has anybody watched Jeff Nelson pitch recently? My goodness, this isn’t 1999 Jeffy. Of course they will release him, finally, around July 30th so he can make some headlines…complaining. He is still at the top of his form at that.
Pokey is this year’s “dead arm”. My, the Carlos Guillen for Ramon Santiago trade just gets better and better over time, like a fine wine.
#56 So does watching that overpaid SS in Baltimore.
#56/57: The whining from the fans has been keeping pace as well…
RE.55
I’ve been out of the country much of the season. Just how bad is Nelly these days?
I think the biggest problem with Nelson is that Hargrove doesn’t know how to use him. He still has that nasty slider but his command is not what it used to be. He needs to only face righthanders if possible. He’s been facing way too many lefthanders.
The other day Hargrove brought him in to face a righthander and then left him in for the next three lefthanders.
#58 Thank you all knowing one who knows so much about me.
Pokey won’t be around for 2006 (or at best he’ll be a NRI) if he sits for all of 2005- his deal’s one year with a 2.6 million dollar option, and the M’s would have to be insane to take the option.
Speaking of Boston and World Series Champs, I wonder about this– What is it about winning the World Series that gives the Boston players the impression that they are the chosen world mouth offs? Did you see Schillings comments about Lou Pinella? Curt dear, Sweet Lou has not forgotten how the game is played but you clearly do not have a clue!!Perhaps you should worry about your own team and while you are at it suggest that they use some of that series money to get haircuts so they look like real human beings.
#40-”Does anyone else have better information on their evaluation of his injury during spring training? I bugged me then, and it bugs me more now.”
timeline per the PI:
Mar. 27, came out of game with ‘sore shoulder’, examined.
Mar. 29, to be re-evaluated by medical staff
Mar. 30, “Shortstop Pokey Reese, who hasn’t played since Sunday because of a sore shoulder, will need at least one more day before he’s ready.”It’s getting better,” Reese said, “but it’s not quite there.”
Apr. 2, “Reese warmed up for last night’s game at Cashman Field like everybody else. Reese seemed to have trouble getting his shoulder loose, but said, “I feel fine.”"
Apr. 6, “Seattle shortstop Pokey Reese had an MRI exam on his injured right shoulder yesterday. The MRI, read by the Mariners’ medical crew before last night’s game, revealed a strained right shoulder.”
Apr. 27, “Shortstop Pokey Reese, was recalled from his injury rehabilitation assignment at Class AA San Antonio. Reese, his right shoulder still sore, flew back to Seattle yesterday. Team medical director Dr. Larry Pedegana will examine Reese today.”
Apr. 27, “An exam Wednesday morning disclosed a problem in the AC joint, which is located near the clavicle.”
But the key is: When was the injury ever “honored”? We don’t yet have a date on that.
Don’t you miss Lou’s ability to get the bench playing time without doing asinine stuff like starting WB in actual games?
#63: Curt Schilling was never one to keep his opinions quiet. This did not start with his trade to Boston or with his winning the World Series there or in Arizona.
When one of Lou’s pitchers throws at Curt’s teammate’s head (and one with a nice haircut, since you consider that to be germane to this discussion) and Curt has something to say about it, that would seem to qualify as Curt’s “worrying about his own team.â€Â
Tony Conigliaro was a Red Sox star-in-the-making hit in the face by a fastball at the age of 22 in 1967. It ruined his career.
There’s pitching inside, and there’s headhunting. Lou’s comments immediately after the game (“maybe those pitches slipped, maybe they didn’t”) do not paint him in a very positive light.
The News Tribune is reporting that Pokey will almost certainly require shoulder surgery.
The common denominator in the beaning sequence was Arroyo and not a Tampa Bay pitcher… But besides that, there is no excuse for callying another teams manager an idiot in public nor is there any for suggesting a man like Lou Pinella has “forgotten how the game is played.” Indeed, it was a public attack on the persona of Lou Pinella and it is not acceptable. Schilling should apologize if he really is a champ.
You and I could not have watched the same game. The “common denominator†was that, in the space of three minutes in the 7th inning, Lance Carter threw at Manny Ramirez (and the ball went behind him), Ramirez homered on the next pitch, and two pitches later he launched a fastball at David Ortiz’ head.
Schilling didn’t call Piniella an idiot; he repeated what TB players said about their own manager. But when Sweet Lou called a team meeting and asked them who said that, they all denied it. I guess that settles the issue.
If Schilling is not a champion, there are no champions. Did you miss ALCS game 6 and World Series game 2? When Seattle gets players like Curt Schilling, they might actually win something.