Remember Randy Johnson, 1995 Mariner
Value over replacement player, 1995
Pitchers:
Randy Johnson, 86.3
Jeff Nelson, 35.2
Tim Belcher, 25.6
(etc)
Hitters
Edgar Martinez, 102.4 (no, seriously)
Tino Martinez, 26.0
Jay Buhner, 21.6
Ken Griffey, Jr 15.6 (remember, he was out half the year)
Players honored with collectible statues, etc
Jay Buhner
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Edgar Martinez
Randy Johnson went 18-2 that year. He started thirty games and pitched 214 1/3 innings — over seven innings a start. He threw three shutouts. His ERA in the fricking Kingdome was 2.48. He struck out *294* hitters. That’s still the 66th-best season for strikeouts in baseball history. For K/IP, it’s now #5 — at the time, it was #1. He walked 65. Compared to the performance of the league average pitcher, today’s it’s still one of the best fifty seasons ever.
Edgar had a spectacular season, too, but he gets a statue. Two other guys who had good seasons get statues.
Randy gets nothing. He doesn’t show up much in the highlight clips they show between innings — look, it’s Randy, congratulating someone in the dugout! Or jumping onto a dogpile!
Randy didn’t leave on good terms. I’ve written about that elsewhere, but the why, and what’s behind it, are unimportant. But so did Griffey, fighting with management on his way out as he tried to become a Red. Why does Randy get ignored, when half a season of Griffey warrant a statue?
And whether or not you think that recognizing the success of the 95 team is worthwhile, or a distraction, or what, we can all agree that ignoring the best player on that team is shameful. Randy was good to the Mariners and Seattle in his time here, and deserves better than this.
Comments
122 Responses to “Remember Randy Johnson, 1995 Mariner”
It doesn’t help that he’s a Yankee right now.
I want a statue of Joey Cora crying!
I thought there was a story about Chuck Armstrong taking some pleasure in the thought that Randy might lose in the playoffs with Arizona.
Yes yes there are all kind of stories about Armstrong and Johnson. Whether or not that’s the source of the slight, it’s still ridiculous.
I agree 100%. I think things are complicated by the fact that Randy’s still playing at a high level with an AL team, but that’s still no reason not to honor the guy. I still get goosebumps at the memory of watching him come out of the bullpen to throw relief in those playoff games.
I agree that Johnson deserves more credit for the 1995 season, and indeed for the entire portion of his career with the M’s. However, it’s one thing to screw your team in off-season negotiations, and it’s another to (appear to) screw your team on the field.
Please note I’m not saying it really happened that way. But if you believe in statistics (9-10, 4.33 for SEA; 10-1, 1.28 for HOU) it sure looks that way.
I agree completely with Derek. I believe that even if RJ wasn’t playing for the Yankees right now he still wouldn’t be included in the 1995 promotional honor roll.
Damn f**king straight, Derek!
By the way, today is the 15th anniversary of Randy’s no-hitter against the Tigers.
Randy was the best pitcher this franchise ever had. Period.
Please note I’m not saying it really happened that way. But if you believe in statistics (9-10, 4.33 for SEA; 10-1, 1.28 for HOU) it sure looks that way.
Here’s the thing, and I don’t really want to get into this: you can go through Randy’s starts and see he was up-and-down, his fight with the front office was clearly affecting his concentration and he’s the most emotionally-driven pitcher in baseball still. That Randy wasn’t his best in his contract year with the team is certainly true, but to say that statistics make it look like he intentionally screwed them…
a) No, they don’t.
b) Statistics can’t show intention
c) This is clearly a case where they the story behind the statistics shows in the close examination of those statistics
Derek, Gar’s VORP was 102.4 that season (you used his PMLV of 84.3). 102.4 for a 144 game season is simply amazing.
I wonder if you have to get the player’s permission before you can make a statue in their likeness… fwiw, he is on the radio highlights, the announcers talk him up, and I have seen him in the highlights at the ballpark.
Ladies and germs, your 1995 AL MVP, Mo Vaughn. *applause*
Gar had 4 first-place votes.
There’s even more to Randy in ’95 than what the statistics show. There’s no way to quantify the feeling that the other M’s had when it was RJ’s turn on the mound. Before the game even began, I’m sure they all thought “We’ve got this one in the bag because Randy’s on the mound.”. That mindset would help the hitters relax and perform at a level that is commensurate with their abilities. Call it the “Anti Ryan Franklin effect”, if you will.
Well, since Randy is 6’10, his statue would have to be a few inches taller than the other players. Maybe the front office figured they could save an extra $3,648.15 in materials costs and add it to the Sasaki Fund.
I fixed the PMLV/VORP thing.
On the highlights at the park — maybe it’s just me. Has anyone seen a clip of Randy-related 1995 amazingness?
You don’t get it, Derek. Management fucked up with Randy, because he had the gall to ask for “Maddux money,” and has since tried to cover its own worthless ass by slagging him every chance they get. Gullible fans, journalists, and talk-show morons have ever since parroted the management line that Randy “quit on the team.”
If Chuck Armstrong is the culprit, I am not surprised. One hundred thousand Willie Bloomquists could not be as worthless to this franchise as this corporate fellator, the last remnant of the justifiably detested George Argyros era, has been. This would be why this franchise will never honor Randy.
Re: Edgar.
If only we had someone hitting .356/.479/.628 on the team now.
I think good ol’ public image and PR has a lot to do with it. For years Alvin Davis was Mr. Mariner even though his ‘stats’ were never within shouting distance of the HOF. Alvin was a nice guy and genuine hero material. Edgar takes the crown from Alvin as he is a more contemporary figure AND he is an admirable, personable character even if somewhat private. It helps that Gar has borderline HOF numbers. By contrast, Randy was and still is an abrasive guy media-wise. He just isn’t very interviewable or telegenic. In short, he has negative charm and stats can’t save him from that. He even got off to a crappy start in New York. Does anyone recall his shoving a reporter and cameraman on the street while he was out strolling with his two goon-style bodyguards? That kind of thing is not gonna create any love in The Stadium or with the writers. Beyond Randy’s little personal island of power pitching and brooding he is just bad news and in the business of baseball bad news isn’t very marketable.
He’s not a pleasant person so he won’t get celebrated. It’s as plain as the nice Seattleite stopping to let a pedestrian cross the street.
I do not know why he does not have a statue. But I am more likely to believe that his pitching for another prominent AL team, at the very least, factored into the decision. I often hear Randy mentioned in the radio promo ads “Great moments in Mariner history,” specifically his no-hitter and one-hitter, and the victory of the Angels in the ’95 one game playoff. And the the broadcasters, at least Neihaus, will reference him as often as Junior when discussing past Mariner moments and memories.
Great write up. There is absolutely no doubt that Randy and Edgar carried the team that year. Especially in October. Others had their moments, but those two were unquestionably the ones that enabled the team to be here today in the stadium some now take for granted.
I also believe Randy’s courage, desire to win, and “refuse to lose” (or refuse to come off of the mound) attitude cost him the 1996 season and almost his career. I’ve never heard anyone in the FO credit him for that, I have only heard them use his bad back (which I believe was the result of his ’95 efforts) as a negotiating weapon against him.
#21 – Perhaps Randy’s back injuries were as a result of carrying the team during the ’95 season?
Ok, horrible joke. Sorry.
#11 MSB wrote “I wonder if you have to get the player’s permission before you can make a statue in their likeness…”
I’ve been told that As long as the player played for the team at one time, even in the minors, they can use his likeness (at least for a promotional item). It might be different if it were being sold at their team store. I recall several years ago buying a Buhner bobblehead on E-Bay of him with the Columbus Clippers (Yankees farm team). I asked Buhner about it and he didn’t even know it existed and hoped they would send him one. Apparently the minor league teams not only don’t talk to the player(s) involved, they don’t bother to send them one!
The highlights I’m seen at the stadium almost always show Randy Johnson striking out Salmon (?) for the AL West title.
Has anyone considered that maybe Randy or the Yankees rejected the idea of a statue? I assume they’d have to get permission of both (or at least one) to do so.
#22 – actually, not such a joke. Edgar and Lou were both quoted saying exactly that.
BTW, if anyone is up to this stat challenge, go figure out the attendance figures for when Randy was starting that year vs. when he wasn’t. People were planning their trips to the park (can I really call the Kingdome a park?) around him.
Edgar, Griffey and Buhner didn’t give up in order to help the trade process progress. Johnson did. Randy is a head case and not as beloved as Gar and Bone. Griffey on the other hand scored the winning run and was the best player of the decade.
I agree. One need only look at the next season. Randy was out for all but five victories that year and we finished…85-76?…and a handful of games behind the first place Texas Rangers. (Yes, the Rangers.) He was our losing streak stopper. I can remember Tino saying that the fielders knew they could take the night off when Randy was pitching. There should be a statue of him pointing to his father in the sky after the final strikeout against the Angels in that one-game playoff.
Prior to the 1995 season, Randy was supposed to lift weights between starts and cut back on his workload to help his back. Of course, that all went out the window when Junior went down. And yes, he paid for it the next season. It’s the biggest reason (I don’t think this is front office propaganda.) that they didn’t want to give him a contract extension in 1998. But that was 2,345 Cy Young Awards ago.
Randy Johnson is my all-time favorite Mariner, and probably always will be. I still have a poster on my wall, a picture of Rady mid-pitch. There’s a line of text going around the border. I can’t recite it from memory, but it speaks to the better, mentioning thoughts of “your” wife and children, and how relieved you’ll be to return to the dugout defeated but unhurt — only to try to survive again three innings later. There was a great quote in SI once describing Randy as a snarling pitcher who would throw a ball 100 miles an hour inches past your head “and then scream at you as you squirm in the dirt.” Yeah!
(Oddly enough, my second favorite Mariner also wears No. 51.)
#29 Vince said:
That’s also a bitter pill to take when it comes to the Mariners disrespecting Randy Johnson.
Obviously, this is a whole other issue, but to this day, I still feel that giving #51 to Ichiro was a slap in the face to Randy. We can only hope that one day, this franchise honors Randy in a respectful way. I’m all for building a Randy statue that has him pointing the sky (previously mentioned by #27 Wabbles).
Without Randy, 1995 never happened.
Messed up the blockquote tags. My thoughts are under the first sentence (which was Vince’s comment).
They gave #21 to David Freaking Segui too, so lets not assume they did it out of malice.
I fixed that, btw.
#31 Well, when it comes time to retire jersey numbers because of the hall of fame, at least it can be said that both wearers of 51 deserve it, hopefully.
Thanks, Derek. Great column by the way, you beat me to it. Congrats.
#32 Dave,
Now that’s even worse. Nice hustle.
I do not the M’s would have given 51 to any old player. I am pretty certain that Ichiro, who wore the number with Orix, negotiated that just as he negotiated to have his first name on the back of the jersey. I am glad that the M’s did not let that prevent them from signing Ichiro.
One final thing with Randy. If the M’s FO believed that a Randy statue would bring in a near capacity crowd, they would probably make one. While there is obviously discord between Randy and some in the FO, Randy is probably not as marketable as Edgar, Junior, and Buhner. This does not mean that he was not the best player in 95, just that, at the moment, his name and face do not sell as well as the other three.
Woops, first sentence should be “I do not think the M’s . . . “
The 1995 season had two amazing performances- RJ’s numbers wouldn’t have been bad for Sandy Koufax, and Edgar’s wouldn’t have been that bad for Ted Williams.
As for not honoring Randy- I suspect time heals all wounds. For years the Seahawks and Kenny Easley were separated by a lot of frozen grimness (Easley had to have a kidney transplant due to anti-inflammatories prescribed by team doctors) that eventually healed. I suspect it will be the same way once Randy retires and the sentiment of his magnificence overcomes the pettiness of any complaints.
And as for comparing Griffey and RJ’s last months with the team- I recall clubhouse reports that Griffey was talking about an offseason trade in 1999.
1)he’s not a mariner
2)he’s not affiliated with the organization
3)the way he left the organization was tantamount to a toddler throwing a fit
why throw a party for the guy?
edgar’s got more class in his strained hamstring than r.j. complete.
babious
RE #39 Yeah, but Griffey forced his trade to the Reds, knowing we stood to lose him to free agency the next season and that he could veto any trade as a 10-year veteran with five years on the same team. Then he sat back in his leather chair in Cincinnati, smiled, and said “They didn’t have to trade me.” I tend to default to Jerry Seinfeld in these situations. “He’s on one team and we cheer him. He goes to another team and we boo him. He’s the same guy, only the uniform is different. We’re cheering for laundry.”
RE #2 Pop quiz! Who had his arm around Cora while he was crying?
I thought Tino’s ’95 VORP was in the 40s?
I dunno, I think the fans’ signs in 1995 (and Art Thiel’s homage to RJ by detailing them in his book) are much more of a tribute to RJ than a plastic statue:
Not even the Yankees can beat our Johnson!
To think that the M’s roster history includes the likes of a Dick Pole and a Randy Johnson is priceless…
Unfortunately, Randy pitched on the Sunday before the Yankee’s series in May, I was hoping to catch him at the Safe. (I don’t think he’s been back besides the 2001 All Star game, but maybe one game as a Diamondback his first year?)
Question: Would you cheer him or boo him? I would certainly cheer him for what he has done for the organization, but I bet there would be some that would at least clap while booing for how he left. (A-Rod, of course, will be booed here till the day he dies).
And when are the Reds coming to town (as if Griffey would actually be healthy, but he could DH for one at bat in a blown out 9th inning)
Randy’s emotional sensitivity is legendary, but the fact is that the Mariners did not offer him “Maddux money” when he clearly deserved it–it was their own inability to understand or acknowledge his value that led to the downward spiral. I can’t remember the number, but I think the Mariners won something like 25 consecutive starts of his. That’s dominant.
Compare to Griffey: they offered him the big money and he not only turned it down but held the team hostage in the ensuing trade negotiations by specifying only one acceptable team. RJ didn’t do that until this year (maybe he learned the trick from Junior).
A-Rod: Refused the same money, then refused to commit to the team during an entire lame duck year. Unlike Johnson, his results during that time were typically good, but he walked away from a winning team for only one reason: the money. Johnson netted Garcia, Guillen, and Halama, while A-Rod left money on the table and the team high and dry.
Randy Johnson was the greatest pitcher in baseball in 1995 and 1997 and has basically been the best since the trade, and if anyone thinks that Jamie Moyer, as good as he has been, has anything near the attendance-spiking, ballpark-shaking, K-counting, Mr.Snappy-flinging, “you’re about to lose, sucker, even if you can catch up to this heat headed for your eyes”-intimidating package that adds up to greatness, I can only guess that his name is Chuck Armstrong. As great as Griffey was, nothing got that stadium rocking like a Randy Johnson appearance. We really haven’t seen it since, even in 2001.
The real test will come when Randy retires and the Mariner Hall of Fame issue arises. I don’t think they’ll be able to keep him out since he’s going to Cooperstown on ballot one.
Who’s cap will Randy be wearing in Cooperstown?
#45,
I believe the HOF makes that decision now. I would hope that they decide that Randy wears a Mariner cap into the HOF, but who knows.
Regardless of what cap he wears, he’s definitely a first-ballot HOF.
I would go for a Dan Wilson jumping into RJ’s arms statue… except they already decided to use Griffey in teal in that same pose. If I were to pick a pose from that play, it would be his jumping high-five as he rounded third, but how are they going to make that?
They also seem to like having scultures/toys of players in each available jersey at the time (white, gray, teal).
I don’t think Buhner’s ALCS homerun is worth sculpturizing. Maybe Piniella on the mound with Walcott in game 1 or Cora’s water works, but otherwise I say forget the ALCS.
I guess the thing is, with a pitcher, how many significantly different poses did Johnson have during the season, where it could be a specific date and not just any game he pitched?
Just some things to think about, I guess.
Judging by the number of Cy Youngs and World Series rings, I would say Arizona. But it hacks me anyway. He should have been an M all this time.
That one where he struck out the last batter in the Angel’s playoff game would be great, raising his hands and eyes to the roof of the Dome. That’s the only highlight that I’ve seen on re-plays.
#29 — The punchline to that poster, after you survived “Mr. Snappy,” was “. . . you thank the baseball gods that tomorrow you play in Cleveland.”
I think the real reason they don’t make a statue of him is that he’s got the ugliest mug in all of baseball. Granted, none of the statues actually look like the players, but would you want a statue of him staring at you?
I think the worst thing he did was join the Yankees because he had to shave his goatee, yikes!
Remember Don Mattingly’s advice on how to hit against Randy Johnson.
“Look fastball. ‘Cause if he’s getting his slider over, you’re out anyway.”
Thanks, DMZ for pointing this out. RJ not getting a statue for his efforts in ’95 is ludicrous.
For him not to get a statue would be like the Sonics making 1996 statues honoring Detlef, Payton, Sam Perkins and Hersey Hawkins, but not Shawn Kemp.
Regarding the retirement of #51: Somehow I doubt RJ will choose to go into the Hall as a Mariner. I don’t know which colors he’ll pick but I think #51 is safe for many years. The M’s have repeatedly said that they won’t retire a number unless the player who wore it makes the Hall. But when RJ goes HOF as a Yankee or a Diamondback I wouldn’t expect the M’s to hang his jersey in from the 2nd deck. For that he’d have to be wearing Mariner Blue inauguration day, I should think.
I’m not the kind of person who sees black helicopters and conspiracies everywhere. I feel like prefacing what I’m about to with that, because I all the evidence that I have told me that Randy wasn’t trying his hardest for the M’s in the last year he was with us, and I’ve got a really hard time honoring somebody who did that.
Do some of you really think Randy was not trying in his last year as a Mariner? I think that is ridiculus, given all that he gave prior to that and who he has always been his entire career — a never say die competitor. He IS an emotion-driven competitor (then even more than now) whose emotions may have acted against him during that time, but he is NOT a quitter or a loafer. Never has been, never will be.
I don’t think RJ was at his best his last year as a Mariner. I don’t know what to attest that to, but taking a real world example….
How many of you had a job you didn’t like, for a boss you didn’t like and were actively seeking employment elsewhere? In that time, I guarantee your performance was affected. Sure, you may have shown up on time and completed your projects and acted like everything was OK, but some times, your mind was bound to wander because you weren’t long for the job and you knew it. I think that’s what happened to RJ that first half of the season — the fire to compete for the team wasn’t there.
I don’t know if RJ will make the Mariner hall of fame. I had a similar conversation the other day with Braves fans and their “big 3″, and we came to the consensus that while Glavine and Smoltz will be in the Braves HoF, but Maddux won’t, since half of his career was with another team. Same thing with RJ.
As far as the fans/media hating RJ because he wasn’t a nice guy — just out of curiosity, anyone know how the Orioles fans treat Eddie Murray?
I was at Randy’s only appearance in Seattle as a D-Back. The fans gave him a three-minute standing O. He tipped his cap.
The animus towards Randy is concentrated in the front office, not in the fanbase.
I all the evidence that I have told me that Randy wasn’t trying his hardest for the M’s in the last year he was with us, and I’ve got a really hard time honoring somebody who did that.
What evidence do you have that Randy wasn’t trying his hardest?
… here we go …
You think I should just close comments? Maybe.
Here’s the point of the post: if you’re going to recognize players on that team, you have to recognize Randy. If you’re going to start throwing random extra criteria on there, like “players who contributed who also didn’t clash with the front office (unless that’s Griffey)” then you’re not recognizing the 1995 team at all: you’re recognizing some edited-to-your-liking version of the 1995 team.
I hate my grass and I still have to mow it. I want it mowed and I want it to look nice, I just can’t seem to concentrate very well so I mow poorly.
Hope this helps all those who think RJ tanked. Break out the tin foil hats.
Re: #58…I was there too, and I gave him a standing O, just like everyone else…quite a difference from the response we gave A-Rod when he first came back (I was there, too).
To me, Randy ranks just behind Griffey and Edgar in the Mariners pantheon. As great as he was, it’s a bit harder to love a pitcher because they only go every fifth day or so. But it’s hard to remember what it was like to have a pitcher like Randy, where you were sure that when you looked at the pitching matchups in the morning you could add another W in the column before the game even started.
Randy will, and should, go into the HoF as a Diamondback. We may remember him first as a Mariner, and he may have thrown his first no-hitter, and won his first Cy Young here, but he won the World Series (and WS MVP) as a Diamondback, as well as four more Cys, so I’d be surprised if he went in as anything else.
I was stunned, and saddened, that the Mariners were only going to have 3 statues for the giveaways throughout the year…think of all the other great ones we could have…Cora sliding around Mattingly, Sojo poking a ball down the right-field line, Tino going upper deck off Dennis Eckersley, RJ pointing skyward after striking out Tim Salmon, and more.
#61: Perfectly stated, Derek.
And to follow on what Derek said… you have to recognize what Randy did in 1995 regardless of what came before and after 1995. It’s like dissing OJ’s Heisman and his NFL records. Yes, he was an (alleged) murderer (until he finds the real killer), but you can’t deny that he was one of the best RBs of all time.
No Randy, no division title. Period. And the D-Backs don’t get a title, either.
I can’t believe I indirectly compared OJ to Randy. That’s just way, way wrong.
I forgot to mention … I liked the story, thanks.
No Randy, no Safeco Field. Period.
#54 — Dead Ball Tim said:”Somehow I doubt RJ will choose to go into the Hall as a Mariner. I don’t know which colors he’ll pick but I think #51 is safe for many years.”
he doesn’t get to choose; after Boggs’ “agreement” with Tampa, the Hall changed the rules. “The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is our decision,†said Hall of Fame President Dale Petroskey. “The wishes of each inductee were considered, but ultimately, it is important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player’s career. A player’s election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for which the Hall of Famer played will be listed. The logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark.â€Â
so–
Montreal for 1 1/2 years
Seattle for approx. 9 years (playoffs, 1 Cy Young)
Houston for 1/2 season (playoffs)
Az for 6 years (4 more Cys and a WS ring)
I’m guessing the Hall goes for Arizona.
As much as anything, I think it is: Players who contributed in 1995, and are still involved in the Seattle community are being lifted up for their little memory-lane spectacle.
If Randy isn’t loved in this community, it really doesn’t matter what the reason is; they probably aren’t going to devote much time / statuary to him.
As you pointed out in your first post, Jeff Nelson, Tim Belcher and Tino Martinez all contributed to ’95 more than Jay Buhner but no love for those guys either. Why? Because the “average fan” doesn’t care about those guys and won’t buy a $30.00 ticket to pick up a $1.00 statue of them.
My earlier comment notwithstanding, I agree with you, Derek: RJ was THE most valuable player of the 1995 team, especially when, in the playoffs, he overcame the “every-five-day” caveat.
As an aside, though, if you contend as in comment #9 (and again, I agree with you) that attitude DOES affect performance, I think we need to revisit the “Locke/chemistry” thread. Chemistry is simply the collective attitude of 25 players.
Sadly, I’m sure we’ll see a Dan Wilson Appreciation Day (complete with statue or some other giveaway) long before we see anything honoring Randy. In fact, we’ll probably see the Wilson propaganda train heading to Safeco in August or September.
RE 71 Well, as long as you brought it up. Wilson WAS an integral part of Refuse to Lose. He played just about every game and handled our (people forget this) tenuous-after-The-Big-Unit pitching staff rather well, while hitting decently.
Who wins in a 5 game series: 1995 or 2001?
As you pointed out in your first post, Jeff Nelson, Tim Belcher and Tino Martinez all contributed to ‘95 more than Jay Buhner but no love for those guys either. Why? Because the “average fan†doesn’t care about those guys and won’t buy a $30.00 ticket to pick up a $1.00 statue of them.
I wouldn’t buy a $30 ticket to pick up any of these statues and certainly wouldn’t pay that much to see such a below-average to average team play. The one thing I love about how bad they are right now is that I can get $7 center-field bleacher tickets anytime I want and then just move to some better seats.
All that said, I don’t see any reason that they aren’t doing a Randy statue. I’m among those who believes that Randy either mailed it in his last season here or was too distracted to be consistently good, and if people want to give him a pass on it because he’s emotional or something that’s fine with me. I don’t really care. The fact is that he’s the greatest pitcher any of us will probably ever see in a M’s uniform and what he did in ’95 should have been recognized.
Bowing down to Paul in #73….THANK YOU for finally raising that issue. The 1995 team wins, hands down. No Mariners team before or since has been so good in the clutch and so good at fundamentals. (Okay, okay, the 2001 team had a stupid RISP batting average, which is how they got away with hitting only 169 homers, but if the game’s on the line I still want that 1995 team on the field.)
I’m not denying Wilson’s importance to the team – just that his popularity (and therefore marketability) far outweighs his on-field contributions, especially compared to other players more deserving of public recognition. But that’s just how marketing works, which is why he’ll be practically knighted by the M’s organization and local media when he announces his retirement (which should be strategically planned for late-July to give them time to do some late summer promotions around Dan – nicely dovetailing with their ’95 campaign – to boost ticket sales when the team is completely out of the race).
Bowing down to Paul in #73….THANK YOU for finally raising that issue. The 1995 team wins, hands down.
wabbles, I think it would be very close. 2001 was a better team and so would be more likely to win 3-0 but I agree that 1995 would have won a Game 5.
There is no way 2001 wins 3-0. You have to remember the RJ gets an automatic W in game 1!
The 2001 team was brilliant against left-handed pitching, though. I like 1995′s chances in game one, but I’d hardly call it a lock.
If Randy doesn’t throw a complete game, 2001 bullpen edge becomes relevant.
Randy is 7-8 lifetime in the postseason. No way is he automatic. (At one point he was 2 wins and 7 losses in the postseason.)
Ahhh … the POST-season. I was thinking this was FANTASY-season.
The 2001 team did not face anyone CLOSE to 1995 RJ … not even close. The best lefty that they faced could very well have been Mark Mulder, a far cry from the Big Unit, but good nonetheless.
It is a fun fantasy question, Brett. On that we agree (if I understand you correctly.) I tend to agree that 2001 would have trouble against him but RJ would have trouble too. He probably didn’t face as good a hitting squad as 2001 (unless he faced 95′s Cleveland Indians.)
2001 was first in Runs Scored, BA and OBP and had an OPS+ of 119.
Randy knew that he was the #5 Superstar in Seattle behind Griffey, Arod,Buhner, and Edgar. He took it personally that he didn’t get the respect he deserved from the front office. You can say Randy was moody, you can also say that he dogged us his last half season, but he was the best pitcher we ever had and is going to be a Hall of Famer on the first ballot.
In the end Johnson, Edgar, and Buhner were the only guys we had a chance to sign. Edgar and Buhner took hometown discounts and the Mariners decided to just let Johnson go because they didn’t think he could hold up long term and they could save the money for Griffey and Arod.
Hindsight is 20/20, but let the lesson be learned, you don’t get rid of #1 pitchers, especially ones who are among the most dominating in the game. Johnson could have been signed up long term very reasonably.
(I am treating this “argument” as if it were an SNL spoof of that old Chicago Sports Roundtable … remember Chris Farley and “Da Bears?” … just having fun, that is why I said fantasy)
It is nice that the Mariners actually have two decent enough teams to have this “argument” about!
Lets see, game 1: Unit vs. Freddy Garcia … Garcia was good in ’01.
I agree, it wouldn’t be a lock for 1995 to win game 1, but if I were a bettin’ man I’d have to go with RJ.
Oh! (slapping forehead) You meant if the two teams played each other. I thought you meant which team would you rather have if you wanted to win a five-game series.
I ought to slap my own forhead … is it too early to start drinking for tomorrow nights game?
BTW … I’ll take 1995 for nostaligic reasons alone. Freaking Edgar Martinez vs. the Yankees … beautiful.
1995 vs 2001… this sounds like an assignment for Diamond Mind.
Re: (# 74) RANDY JOHNSON
“The fact is that he’s the greatest pitcher any of us will probably ever see in a M’s uniform…
The jury is still out, but he may be the greatest pitcher that any of us will ever see in any uniform.
One of the things that Ron Fairly is fond of mentioning is that Rogers Hornsby had the best five-year batting average ever–.402, I think. This got me to wondering which pitcher had the best five-year W-L record ever. Lefty Grove was 1-2 (same six year span) and Randy Johnson was 3-4 (two discrete five-year spans).
And when it comes to a ten-year span, it’s RJ.
Diamond Mind is an excellent suggestion.
Ideally, the series would take place in both Safeco and the Kingdome.
The 2001 team was clearly a better team than the 1995 (let’s compare #2 and #3 starters in a playoff series- Bob fricking Wolcott against Garcia? The bloated corpse of Chris Bosio against whoever?), while the 1995 had better individual performers (Edgar and RJ). That might be the difference inj a playoff, since short series are pretty random…except, remember, Edgar was on the 2001 team as well, and Edgar was one of those rare hitters who could take over a short series like George Brett or Reggie could.
(It still makes me a little sad to write “was” there. Man, what I wouldn’t give to see Edgar putting his usual .320/.400/.550 in there this year…)
Incidentally, for as magical as September 1995 was, we weren’t actually the best team in the AL that month, recordwise. Anyone want to guess who it was?
Isn’t there a site called whatifsports.com that could settle this? I thought they did simulations with old stats and such?
Looks like I’m late on a lot of this, but here’s what I’ll say….
I fell into the category of those who were bitter about the way Randy left. However, I was in high school at the time and hadn’t grown to the point where I could look at the situation with little more than emotion and hearsay. Watching Randy pitch make an entire game in the Kingdome exciting and watchable, even for an annoyed teenager who wants to go party. I realize now that there were many other factors, and Randy should be foreverd honored as a great Mariner.
BUT-the Mariners FO was NOT in high school during that time. They are grown men. This whole grudge with Randy is immature and selfish. If you’re honoring the top 3 moments/players from 95 with statues, it should be:
1. Edgar and his double, grand salami, etc.
2. Randy and his win over the Santa Barbara Angels of the Pacific Ocean, coming in for game 5, etc.
3. Griffey motoring around 3rd
The Buhner HR was great and all, but the M’s LOST that series. I would put Sojo’s inside-the-parker, Cora’s slide(s) around Mattingly, and Bobby Wolcott’s W against Cleveland ahead of that.
When is the FO going to get past this homer, fan-favorite, yes-man favortism towards players. That worked 10 years ago. The fanbase is past that now.
Answered my own question. I sim’d a game on there with the ’01 M’s as the home team.. Johnson vs Garcia. Below is the URL for the boxscore:
http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=20807794&ad=1
#89….wow the Yankees were 21-6 that month. The M’s 19-8. Interesting
92-
You’ve got to be kidding me. Javier starts as the DH, and Edgar plays 1B after coming in off the bench?
Worst. Simulation. Ever.
#94 – I could’ve adjusted the lineups.. I just went with the default lineups (which are weird). You could go on there and change any part of it that you wanted.. it’d likely be a bit more realistic with Edgar in there and not Javier for DH.
I think the main reason he isn’t in the videos is because what exciting clip can you show for a pitcher? Strike out 1, 2, 3… Compared to Edgar’s Double, a Griffey homer, Buhner homer. Thats video highlight reel. You see any highlights it mainly shows the hitters because lets face it thats more exciting. Randy was an essential piece of the puzzle… probably the most important piece of that year. But pitcher highlights aren’t as exciting (a perfect game being an exception). Amazing catches and hits are where its at. The statues were from a couple of the more important highlight events. Armstrong may have had something to do with it being the petty *$#@* that he is, but I don’t think its a big spite against Randy. He was amazing, no doubt, but his amusingness isn’t highlight material.
Yeah, I just did that myself. This game got played at the Kingdome…
http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=20807815&ad=1
Javier didn’t usually bat second or start in LF- but I’ve seen Mac against lefties way too often.
Randy loses the CG…but K’s 14 without walking anyone. Doubtlessly this would be a game for the ages to be at, since apparently Kaz’s splitter was working this simulation, since he manages to K the Two Martinez Launch AND Bone with the winning runs on base, no less.
#96-Huh? You’re trying to tell me that Randy coming in vs. the Yanks with GNR blaring wasn’t exciting?
With all the “magic” and whatnot that is associated with ’95, should we look at the fact that the M’s were 19-13 in the months of April and May, 24-31 in June and July, and 36-22 in the months of August and September. Let’s see, why would that be? Was there anyone missing from say…I don’t know….May 27th to August 14th?
October should be included in that 36-22
La dee da. I’m talking to myself. Why is it that whenever I have time to talk on here no is around?
If your doing the ’95 vs ’01 match-up wouldn’t it be Johnson vs Moyer in Game 1 and Wolcott vs Freddy in Game 2, then Bosio vs Sele then Benes vs Abbott then back to Johnson vs Moyer.
Overall the pitching is better in ’01 and when you factor Dome vs Safeco the offense is probably close. RJ does give 95 two likely wins but don’t forget how good Moyer was in ’01, he shut down a very good Cleveland team in game 5.
Game 2 results, Wolcott vs. Garcia
http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=20807867&ad=1
Both pitchers throw complete games? Riiiiiiiiiight. 2001 M’s win again. Remember when a 4 RBI game from Boone wasn’t inconceivable?
#96 I don’t really understand where you are coming from here, unless it is based on what plays on ESPN or something. There were many times when every single pitch Randy Johnson threw in his prime was exciting. And certainly every two-strike pitch was.
DMZ: Also, RJ did it in a short season. He racked up almost 300 strikeouts while losing two or three starts to the late start to the season. Could have won twenty as well.
The only problem with that game 1 sim is that Jamie threw 142 pitches over 8 innings. He never recovered from the Tommy John surgery that offseason.
I see Olerud went 0 for 4 with 3 K’s off RJ. I’d be tempted to play Buhner at DH and Edgar at 1B. Hate to have Jay on the bench against the lefty.
I ran a couple games for game 1, one of the ones I did. The 01 team won 20-1 with 24hits and NO homers. Right….
Believe it or not, a lot of people don’t really grasp how dominating a pitcher Randy has been. I find it hard to believe that people don’t remember the part he played here in 1995 — the last Anaheim start, and the relief appearance were incredible, every bit as much so as Edgar’s double.
But how many people are aware that the only thing keeping him from breaking Nolan Ryan’s “impossible” strikeout record is longevity? Through last season, his “age 40″ season, he had 4161 Ks. That’s less than 500 short of Ryan through the same age, and Randy started pitching much later in life than Ryan did. Of course, Ryan had 1167 AFTER his age 40, which really remarkable, but Randy could catch him if he pitches until 46 as well (which is pretty darn unlikely, but still).
And of course Randy has been a far, far more EFFECTIVE pitcher than Ryan ever was, partly because, despite his early wildness, he’s thrown well under half as many walks as Ryan’s even-more-incredible-than-the-Ks 2,795 walks. As a result, Randy has the eighth-best adjusted ERA of all time, while Ryan’s not in the top 200.
While I very much remember the “bad Randy, good Randy” days, when every start was either 14 strikeouts or 14 hits in the first inning (one of the flakiest pitchers of all time then), he learned how to turn it around here, and he is still by a wide margin the greatest ever Mariner, judging by his entire career, not just his years here. A-Rod might pass him someday, but he hasn’t yet. Griffey added more value to the M’s themselves, but nothing since. Edgar, as much as I love him, was a DH, not a SS or CF or starting pitcher.
One day people will realize that we watched the first great years of one of the inner circle of great pitchers, every bit the equal of Clemens and Seaver, Pedro and Maddux, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Pete Alexander, Christy Mathewson and Lefty Grove.
What’s the obsession with Wolcott as the #2? He started six games in the regular season and wasn’t even on the roster for the Yankees series.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1995.shtml
Some people believing that Randy was throwing games, or at least not giving his best, before we traded him might have something to do with his not getting a statue.
MSB #68 – Thanks for the heads up on the HOF color choice thing. I had no idea.
Some people believing that Randy was throwing games, or at least not giving his best, before we traded him might have something to do with his not getting a statue.
Really? No one’s ever mentioned that before.
So game 3: Sele vs. Bosio.
http://www.whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=20808242&ad=1
See what I was saying about pitching depth? I imagine Lou got tossed from the ’95 team by the 6th inning.
The one thing on bashing the M’s for not giving Randy the contract he deserved is that he’d already told them he wasn’t re-signing with Seattle–he was that bitter at Armstrong. He’d even tried to get them not to pick up his option for ’98 so that he could leave sooner. It wouldn’t have mattered what Seattle offered him, he was going to Arizona, where he made his home year-’round.
Maybe the fact that Buhner and Edgar are retired/stayed with the M’s and Griffey’s barely played since we traded him allows them to be collectibles.
#113:
EC, that is classic! But how would ’01 Lou react to ’95 Lou kicking bases, throwing hats, covering home plate with dirt and whatnot?
#113 that is hilarious. Seriously.
98 – I like this part:
Joey Cora gets walked. [1] Ken Griffey Jr. hits a groundball single to RF. [12] Edgar Martinez hits a flyball double down the LF line.
Re 113: The most believable part of that game is Joey Cora hitting a home run off Sele. Somehow that is easier to believe than Boone going 6 for 8 with 6 RBI.
How about Sele throwing a complete game with only 1 K? That sound’s like 2005 Sele, not 2001 Sele.
#113,
Sele winning a playoff game?
Now THAT is the worst simulation ever.
Re #121: What, you’d prefer Andy Benes winning one?