Those wacky A’s
DMZ · July 14, 2005 at 10:14 am · Filed Under General baseball
Here’s what our division rivals are up to:
RHP Chad Bradford to the Red Sox for OF Jay Payton.
OF Eric Byrnes and something (SS Quintanilla) to the Rockies for LHP Joe Kennedy and RHP Jay Witasik.
It’s a weird set of trades, and I don’t think they’re done yet. Jay Payton wasn’t happy sitting on the bench (though he still got into 55 games this season) in Boston, but Oakland is still stacked in the OF even after trading Byrnes.
Kennedy’s another weird Oakland gamble. Maybe they see something they think is fixable, and he is only 26.
I can’t quite see how this helps them yet unless there’s one or two more deals to come.
Comments
79 Responses to “Those wacky A’s”
No cash changed hands unless I am mistaken. I believe it was SS Omar Quintanilla as the extra piece of the Byrnes trade.
I have a feeling the A’s are going to steal Austin Kearns from Cincy.
I’ve heard Quintanilla too, but it’s not in the wire article I was reading, so… you know, I’m just going to write that up.
Do they have room for Kennedy? He would have to replace Blanton in the rotation, I guess, but is that an upgrade? I wonder if they are moving him to the bullpen?
It’s in the A’s press release:
http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20050713&content_id=1130466&vkey=pr_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak
I like Kennedy; like Derek said, he’s only 26. He has a full assortment of pitches. He’s also had success at both Coors and Tropicana, which aren’t exactly Safeco. This might not be a huge plus for them this year, but he’ll have things turned around by 2006. I could see him in a swing role, like Bronson Arroyo with the Red Sox.
jason
I’m going to miss seeing Byrnes play in all those divisional games. He was always entertaining. Now it will just be national highlight reels (if that — do we ever see anything done by anyone on the Rockies, ever?) Reed lays himself almost as much, and Doyle has potential to do the same (curdled for me by abject terror he’s going to leave limbs littered all over the field) but unless one of them grows a flying mane of hair it’s not going to be the same.
Yes it is Omar Quintanilla ( according to the Rocky Mountain News) Whom they project to play second base and are sending to AAA Colorado Springs.
Kennedy has been pretty stinky. I wonder what they see in him?
Maybe they got Kennedy because Zito really is on the block??
Kennedy’s minor league stats are good, too.
Smart move by Beane. He got Kennedy, the arm he wanted, for essentially exchanging Bradford and Byrnes for Witasik and Payton (and throwing in a surplus middle infield prospect). Because Payton can play a legitimate centerfield and rightfield, he probably helps Oakland more than Byrnes (either as the A’s fourth outfielder or, as rumored, as trade bait to the Yankees or another team looking for centerfield help). If Kennedy can recover from post-Coors syndrome and revert to previous form, he replaces Kirk Saarloos in the rotation. If not, he did not cost the A’s much in terms of salary or talent.
#7 – I totally agree. Eric Byrnes was one of the few A’s I genuinely liked (not counting Jason Kendall, since he’s really a Pirate).
On the other hand, Chad Bradford should fit in pretty well with all the other sidearmers and weirdoes on the Red Sox pitching staff.
Getting out of Coors certainly has to help of course he tanked in Tampa as well. I would certainly trust Beane more than the Rox brain trust though.
I never liked Byrnes. He’s like the Willie Bloomquist of Oakland (only better)
I never liked Byrnes. He’s like the Willie Bloomquist of Oakland (only better)
He’s Willie Bloomquist with a 5% better bat and a 300% better glove.
I think he could win a Gold Glove in Coors. With that Wyoming-sized OF he’d be making the spectacular catch on every play.
The A’s took Omar Quintanilla 33rd overall in 2003. He went 3 spots ahead of Adam Jones. Now they’re trading him for a guy who has been terrible at the major league level (granted, who has a bit of potential) and makes several million dollars.
Somehow, I don’t think Michael Lewis is going to be writing about this.
For some reason the A’s never thought much of Byrnes but I thought he was better than some of the starters the last two years.
Beane is one of the few GMs who will buy and sell in the same year. First saw this a few years ago when he traded away veteran pitching (I think Kenny Rogers and everyone thought he was conceding the division) only to trade for veteran pitching a day later. Seems his strategy has been working.
Kennedy is a lefty Meche. Awesome stuff, horrible inconsistency.
I think you should always be willing to take a flyer on a Coors pitcher.
Kennedy’s been awful, even for Coors, but getting him in a pitchers’ park with an ocean of foul ground might get his confidence back. He’s had some success in the past. Witasick, on the other hand, has been great.
Payton I don’t pretend to understand.
When we saw a game in Oakland earlier this year, there were seemingly hundreds of Byrnes jerseys in the park, far more than any other player. Maybe the A’s just made the trade to pump up souvenir sales!
Kennedy, as I’ve heard it, is going to the bullpen, and will work his way into the rotation from there.
Remember, pitchers who have left Coors have typically done well in heavier-air environments, but it usually ends up being about the same park-adjusted. Pedro Astacio and Armando Reynoso come to mind. I’d look looking at Kennedy’s TB and minor stats; they show a guy who is going to probably do well in Oakland as a 4/5 starter.
#16:
Dave… look at what’s going the other way. You have Bradford who looked used up in 2004 (and on the DL in 2005) and Quintanilla who looks like he’s regressing in the TL.
To me, it looks like Beane and Theo are trading trash, hoping that maybe they can get something out of the small derivative values they offer.
I’m not arguing that Quintanilla had a ton of value. I’m just pointing out that the vaunted A’s draft philosophy that the sabermetric community jumped on with both feet has been a pretty big disappointment in Oakland.
You know, I screwed that up and conflated the two trades.
Bradford Payton: Trading trash
Byrnes, Quintanilla Witasick, Kennedy: Beane gives up a rangy OF with a Bloomquist-type bat and a prospect stalling out in Midland for a setup guy that can help him in 2005 and a gamble of a pitcher who has the potential to plug the gaping #5 starter hole.
Both trades look to be classic Beane.
Eric Byrnes is hitting .266/.336/.474 and absolutely pounds left handed pitching. He hit .283/.347/.467 last year. His career line is .270/.336/.462. I’m sorry, but calling him a Bloomquist-type bat is just completely off base.
I’m not arguing that Quintanilla had a ton of value. I’m just pointing out that the vaunted A’s draft philosophy that the sabermetric community jumped on with both feet has been a pretty big disappointment in Oakland.
Why this is such a huge disappointment. It seems like the A’s are acquiring the same number of decent prospects than an average team picks up in the draft, and they appear to be getting the same number of stinkers.
I do think the myth that the A’s draft strategy is superior to the classic scouting system is dead. It’s clear you need both methods working in tandem. But anyone with decent baseball instincts and without the Joe Morgan (TM) Blinders knows that.
Dave good point,
Has anyone other than Crosby been drafted by the As in the Moneyball era and made an impact at the ML level?
My memory is hazy, but I’m thinking that Chavez, Tejada and the big 3 pitchers are all pre Moneyball era, tools scouted guys.
Joe Morgan Blinders is copy righted?
Has anyone other than Crosby been drafted by the As in the Moneyball era and made an impact at the ML level?
Pitching-wise you have Harden, Street, and Blanton. Hitting there’s Swisher, and I think Dan Johnson.
That’s five roster spots of 25 (maybe more). Of course, the “Moneyball” draft of 2002, outside of Swisher, has been very uneven.
Are people forgetting that Kennedy has been good at Coors, too? Last year: 3.66 ERA, with basically no home-road split (he was actually slightly better at home).
#25: Chavez was a HS draftee, as was Harden. Mulder, Zito, and Hudson were all college draftees, which is certainly MB-like. I don’t know for sure, but I’d ceratinly guess that Tejada was signed really young, and that’s certainly a tools decision.
jason
Joe Morgan Blinders is copy righted?
Joe Morgan (TM) Brand Blinders are specially designed to ensure that no matter what the argument is, you’ll never see their side! You’re always right, because you know better! And they’re endorsed by secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld!
“Whenever I give a press conference, I always wear Joe Morgan Brand Blinders. They keep me on focus and on target and not blinded by silly things like facts! Because you talk to the media with the faulty blinders you have to have and not the ones you wish you had, I always reach for Joe Morgan Brand!”
Joe Morgan Brand Blinders… because stupid geeks with computers are always wrong, you know you’re always right!
(Available at Walgreens, Pennys, Sears, Fred Meyer, and other fine stores.)
Joe Morgan Brand Blinders are so good, I’m giving them my full endorsement.
jason
Nick Swisher and Joe Blanton are the two players from the infamous Moneyball draft that are currently with the A’s. Mark Teahan is with the Royals.
Harden was selected in 2000, which rules out any association with the Moneyball philosophy.
Of course, by Moneyball philosophy, I am referring to the book bred ideals.
I have enjoyed this thread because Billy Beane is a GM that A’s fans trust is always working deals to improve his club, and almost always succeeds. It is fun to watch the moves he makes….it is almost like having one of the USS Mariner guys as a GM of the A’s.
If the Mariner front office had half of Billy Beanes smarts I would feel better about the direction the club is going. If Beane were in charge don’t you think he would trade Guardado for prospects? Do you think Billy would have Pat Borders do the majority of the catching? Would “Doyle” be getting splinters in his ass from sitting on the bench?
You’re right about the Borders thing. If Beane was our GM, we’d probably have Gerald Laird as our catcher right now, rather than seeing him rot in AAA for Texas.
28: How could Harden have been an HS draftee? We drafted him in 96 out of high school and he didn’t sign. So what did he do in the next 4 years if he didn’t go to college?
rcc-
Before I answer any of those questions I had better fetch my Joe Morgan Blinders.
#35 – We drafted Harden out of high school in 99. Oakland got him in 2000 out of juco.
Harden was drafted by the A’s out of a JC.
Isn’t the ultimate unspoken point here that it is because Beane is resourceful, he makes deals for his team; meanwhile, Bavasi sits in his throne, possible due to an accident of birth, and timidly steers our team without direction or vision? What we need is a new GM. The right player transactions will follow.
re 39
No, I don’t think that follows.
I will argue that it’s certainly possible that organization wide problems exist that reinforce some of the negative qualities in Bavasi, and may actually work to stymie any progressive innvoation he can manage to think up.
For example, there’s always the GIGO principle….if he’s getting bad info on player evaluation from other people in the organization, that’s gotta hamper things, even if he disagrees with it.
I wish those wacky A’s and their GM were our local team. (with our budget and ballpark, of course!)
*sigh*
Since we are on the topic of GM’s; what do the USSMariner guys think about the whispers that Cashman could take over next year?
Cashman would be a horrible choice. His brain and accompanying creativity have been suffocated from years of being a “yes” man. We need independent-minded, courageous folks like Beane and Bowden.
42, where are those whispers coming from?
Cashman would be a horrible choice. His brain and accompanying creativity have been suffocated from years of being a “yes†man.
And you know this exactly how?
I think the fact that Cashman’s managed to keep the plates spinning in NY as long as he has DESPITE Steinbrenner’s quite notable.
It was a one-sentence throwaway in the Philadelphia(?) paper or something. It got a small flurry of discussion on a message board, but I can’t seem to find it now.
Grain of salt and all that. In any case, Bavasi himself has noted he doesn’t have the best job security at this point…so we’ll see what happens.
By the way Livingston called up to AAA today. Are the M’s too passive/aggressive at pushing players quickly through the system?
The A’s have historically pushed college pitchers very quickly while the M’s have moved high school pitchers slowly.
Any chance of Livingston seeing Safeco this year?
RE 43 Please please please no Bowden. I’d rather have Bavasi.
Exhibit 1: Christian Guzman and the contract he rcv’d this past off season.
[deleted, name calling]
Yeah, Bowden and Beene may both have the “cajones” to make moves, but that’s where the similarities stop. Bowden is terrible.
re 49
I REALLY don’t think equating George Steinbrenner with the Ms ownership is a particularly valid thought. It really doesn’t make much sense.
Personally, I’d think it’d be a breeze to work here over New York.
I notice Tony Womack played for the St. Louis Cardinals last year. Does that make Walt Jocketty a dumbass for getting him?
And Cashman didn’t “let Vazquez go”- the Yankees got the best left-handed pitcher ever in return, a guy who had a great year in 2004 for a miserable team.
Go look at what the Yankees did in the 80′s if you think that Steinbrenner’s money is the end-all, be-all of why the Yankees win.
Anyway, Cashman can come over any time, just like Beane.
…so you can see precisely why Cashman would appeal to the M’s ownership. He’s shown he can toe the line (you know that Visa commercial where Steinbrenner signs the check? Cashman is in that commercial too: he’s the pen). And the M’s can say they’re shaking things up after a disappointing season, stealing “brains” from the evil, hated Yankees. It would get a lot of play in the fanbase and the local media, who would neither ask why Cashman was available in the first place nor notice that he doesn’t arrive in a package with his most winning asset (that same checkbook).
This is off-topic, but there’s no good thread for it now. BP has a chart of the total injury days lost by team, and guess who’s number one? Mariners. We’re middle-of-the-pack for salary dollars lost, because our wounded are more like Bobby Madritsch than Barry Bonds. But still. Not all of the Mariners’ problems are caused by stupidity.
Of course, a good chunk of those days are Dan Wilson and Scott Spiezio, but the point’s well taken.
This is off-topic, but there’s no good thread for it now.
That’s not a good defense.
What you should have done is said “Another thing about the A’s is they’re way healthier than the M’s… blah blah blah BP blah blah…”
re 53
Puh-leeze.
56 – I’m sorry, sir. It’ll never happen again, I swear it, lying out my ass.
Another thing about the A’s is, their bloggers know how to keep it on target. Mariners bloggers are a scattershot bunch, scarcely able to concentrate on one thing for as long as it takes to, er, what was I typing about?
58: I think you were talking about freeways in Rhode Island.
Honestly, though, it’s frustrating as a fan to see that the only position player on the current roster who was developed and retained by your team is William Fn Bloomquist.
I’m intentionally not counting Doyle so as not to alert the injury gods.
Jose Lopez doesn’t count?
DMZ – you’re right of course. I was mostly thinking of the guys who’ve been with the club for most of the season.
DMZ-
Another thing about the A’s, they have articles written about them in the local papers. I read your article in the local paper about Gillick today, and was wondering if you think Gillick had left the cupboard bare here in Seattle in pursuit of championships. You stopped short of saying that he HAD done this in the article, but you raised it as a possibility. A perusal of MLB.com didn’t turn up what appeared to be a mass exodus of hot prospects for verterans during Gillicks years, but I’m curious what you and the others here think.
Another thing about the A’s, they have articles written about them in the local papers.
You know, I’m finally happy someone is addressing this problem with Mariners. I’m tired of having to subscribe to the Tulsa World just to get daily articles about the M’s, and I’m especially tired that the in-depth columns can only be found in the Aftenposten — and I had to learn Norwegian to read of those!
Damnit, it’s about time the Seattle Times and P-I assigned writers to cover the M’s. Heck, I’d settle for the Everett Herald or News-Tribune just having some writer produce a column about the team at least once a week. Is that too much to ask for in a newspaper?
Derek, I like your writing, but today’s “off the wall” piece sure could have used some editing: “Since thenx well,…” – M’s record in 1999 was 79 and 83, not 79 and 93 and “Gillick, in contenting today”. Was your editor asleep or something or do they have you do your own editing?
The Gillick Era here didn’t have so much of a talent drain in the form of trades for players to help the team as they had consistent horrible drafts. Even as we acknowledge the importance of international scouting and recruiting, the draft is where teams get the bulk of their farm system and hopefully, their major league-ready talent. The M’s got none of that from the draft during the Gillick years.
You also have Toronto as 81-71 in 1991; they were 91-71 that year.
Unlike the A’s and Mariners, Bret Boone is hitting third tonight, presumeably as a way to show confidence in him, which is something I doubt Ken Macha would do.
If we need a fresh young mind at gm lets try dan jennings are josh burns are even former mariners scout charlie kerfeld hell theres 3 good young minds and all 3 of them have there own way of thinking outside the box.
I haven’t heard or seen who the PTBNL is from the Boone deal. Anyone out there know?
PTBNL will be named…later.
Pretty sure it’s contingent on Boone’s performance….
Could it be as good as their #1 2005 draft pick?
Why are the athletics wacky?There shrud GM deals with his teams best interest not how the fans love a player past there value caugh caugh moyer,wilson cough cough!!!Nice guys allways finish behind and thats were the mariners have allways finished.
I think Boone may do better in MN for this odd reason. He has been under a lot of pressure the last season and a half as he has tried to figure out what has gone wrong. Last year, he thought getting his vision correct would help. This season, he has mentioned that his batting problems were due to poor technique.
It must be hard for players who suddenly face their inevitable declines.
Seeing him sobbing the other day, I think it may have taken the pressure off.
He might relax with the knowledge that he doesn’t have to meet the Seattle expectations and knowing there is someone else who believes in him (Ryan).
I hope he leads MN to the Wild Card and prevents Bos or NY from getting into the playoffs.
If someone out there can translate post 73 into standard English for me, I’d be much obliged.
Dave (#16, #21) wrote:
And dw (#24) responded:
I’m with dw on this one, Dave. The main thrust of Moneyball was not that the A’s had discoverd some superior method of drafting prospects, but rather that the traditional scouting/tools method was such a crapshoot that there was little risk in trying something different. Even if they had failed utterly (and as I said, I agree with dw that they haven’t failed any more than most clubs who haven’t tried anything “new”), that willingness to buck tradition is admirable in a baseball culture that is exceedingly resistant to change. You could even argue that this trade is an example of how the philosophy works, despite its failings. By drafting players who are closer to MLB-readiness (in general), and being willing to dump them early enough that other FO’s haven’t quite figured out they aren’t going to be very good major leaguers (if even that), they are maximizing major-league return out of their draft.
I’ve never understood the offense the scouting community as a whole seems to have taken at this main point (even if I do understand why they reacted to the smug way the A’s FO was portrayed as responding to traditional scouting methods).
Lewis himself responded to somebody making a point similar to yours in a recent BP chat:
(Yet another arcane history lead-in here.) The Allied paratrooper drop at D-Day was so disorganized, the Nazis assumed there was some kind of evil genius planning behind it. I’m inclined to view these A’s deals the same way. If I’m an Oakland fan, I just gotta trust that Beane has just such an evil genius plan and knows what he is doing, based upon him having done this kind of thing before.
It’s kind of off the subject but Mark Teahen was part of the 2002 draft by the A’s and he is in the majors with Kansas City as part of the Dotel trade
Re #75–no you wouldn’t, Corco.
Re #72–theoretically, yes, but practically, no, as Terry Ryan isn’t stupid. (And with specific regard to the Twins’ #1 pick in ’05, no, because you can’t trade draftees until a year after they sign their contract.)