Moyer returning, other good stuff
In with today’s PI Mariner notebook was the news that Moyer’s looking to return next year. I’d use this to plug the “home starter” idea again, except… Moyer also says his remaining goal is to play in the World Series. Which probably means he’ll be looking for another team to help him do that.
Over at ESPN, Jim Caple has a cool article on the M’s using old-style bats in batting practice. He brought those bats to the last feed, because he’s awesome, and man, those things are huuuuuge. Remarkably, it’s the one article on ESPN.com that’s not Insider today.
Also: Soriano’s status is questionable, as his amazingly fast comeback from TJ surgery has stalled a bit (though the PI and Times seem to differ a little on what that means, and what’ll happen next, though Tacoma figures in both versions), and Madritsch may start throwing soon.
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60 Responses to “Moyer returning, other good stuff”
Moyer could get traded to the Cubs, help them to the World Series this year, then sign a one-year deal with the Mariners as a home starter and help them to the Wild Card in 2006. Hey, a guy can dream
If Moyer’s goal is to get to a World Series, it seems he’d be foolish to reject a trade that sends him to a contender for two months.
Would the Mariners want Moyer next year as a 30-start guy? My gut feel is he seems pretty close to done.
Yay for Madritsch! I hope Raffy’s setback doesn’t linger. He’s definitely a valuable arm. I wonder if Bucky will be playing before the season ends? He’ll probably play winter ball too.
If you had to lay odds on Madritsch and Soriano, what are their chances of pitching at the big league level next year? 50%? 10%? 80%?
The thing that surprised me about the Shoeless Joe bat wasn’t the weight but how off the center of gravity was. I took a swing with it and could feel the bat pulling me outward.
That off-balanceness would shift your strike zone three inches to the outside. Your ability to hit the inside pitch, though, would be limited. Of course, back in the 1910s hitting the corners wasn’t as important as it is now, so you probably wouldn’t see that many inside pitches.
Re: #3, Next year, I’d say 90%. This year, probably closer to 30%, but I hope that I’m wrong on the latter.
I would rather increase the odds they can pitch in 2006 as opposed to 2005, which is basically a complete washout at this point.
Given that Madritsch hasn’t even started throwing yet, it seems unlikely that he’ll pitch in the majors this year. Soriano, though, could certainly be up pretty soon if he’s on his way to Tacoma in the near future. I agree with ec, though; take it nice and easy.
jason
I read yesterday that Pokey is done for the year. Did he have surgery?
Great, another million in salary we can shed for something else. I suspect that Betancourt’s got a decent shot of being the 2006 version of Pokey (no-hit, good glove), and he’ll save a million by only needing a minimum salary.
EC, I think Betancourt could have a better bat than Pokey
Not to mention, better acting skills.
Raul Ibanez said,”We used this in batting practice and there are no chips, no nothing,” inspecting the Jackson bat. Chips? The space shuttle’s exterior should be this hard
From espn’s J. Caple
Good stuff!
Yeah, but he’ll be 24 with one year of pro ball next year, so I wouldn’t exactly expect him to hit better than Pokey might- like .240 with low OBP and SLG. Which would still make him an OK MLB SS if he fields as well as Pokey does.
Betancourt is outhitting Willie B at a similar age, FWIW.
Much as I have liked and appreciated Moyer, I would be very disappointed to see him in the rotation next year. His stuff gets more marginal each year. Too much crafty junk ball pitchers in our rotation right now. This team needs to get younger now and guys 35-43 are not the way to go.
#8– Metz said:”I read yesterday that Pokey is done for the year. Did he have surgery?”
May 7 Pokey Reese underwent surgery to repair the AC-joint in his right shoulder ; June 8 Pokey Reese played catch on Tuesday for the first time since having shoulder surgery ; June 12 Reese backed off his workouts on Saturday, a day after taking batting practice for the first time since his shoulder surgery last month. Reese said that he felt some residual stiffness, and the Mariners didn’t want him to take any chances ; July 23 Pokey Reese will have his surgically repaired shoulder examined by Dr. Lewis Yocum. Reese’s rehabilitation program was halted shortly before the All-Star break, at which point “no progress” had been made, according to Lee Pelekoudas; with two months left in the season and promising shortstops throughout the system, Pelekoudas acknowledged yesterday Reese might not play this season.
Is there a legal limit to the size and/or shape of a bat?
I can’t find any definition of the term “bat” in the official rules.
A little off topic, but a good read from Star Tribune.com (minneapolis)
http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/5525636.html
im a dummy. i dont know how to send links. i’m ashamed.
Holy Cow, I had completely forgotten about Pokey! Out of site out of mind I guess.
I suppose I wouldn’t mind it if Moyer were our #5 pitcher, I have a hard time seeing how we will completely overhaul our rotation for next year. I do agree that we should get younger.
That’s supposed to be out of sight but maybe I meant it as a pun?
Much as I have liked and appreciated Moyer, I would be very disappointed to see him in the rotation next year. His stuff gets more marginal each year. Too much crafty junk ball pitchers in our rotation right now. This team needs to get younger now and guys 35-43 are not the way to go.
Jamie Moyer is clearly the best starting pitcher on the staff. It’s not even close. His fielding independant ERA is 4.31, 31st among AL qualifiers. He’s essentially tied with Brad Radke (4.29) and Barry Zito (4.36), both of whom I assume you’d love to have on the staff next year.
If the problem is that you have too many “Moyer-type” pitchers, then get rid of Franklin and Sele, the crappy versions of the Moyer-type pitcher. Moyer’s been the only starter on the staff who hasn’t been downright lousy. Meche, Franklin, Pineiro, and Sele rank 46th, 49th, 51st, and 52nd (out of 54) in the AL in Fielding Independant ERA. That’s terrible.
Moyer represents himself, and his skills are best suited to Safeco Field and the Mariner defense. If you can bring him back next year for 1 year at less than $3 million, you do so.
Moyer at 3M > Franklin > Pavano at his current salary.
If he’ll sign for a reduced rate, take him to fill some innings at slightly above replacement level.
Dave, I was under the impression that Moyer could not re-sign with the team for less than 20% of his current contract, unless they part ways and wait until May.
16 -
Official Rules: 1.10
(a) The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2 3/4 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of solid wood. NOTE: No laminated or experimental bats shall be used in a professional game (either championship season or exhibition games) until the manufacturer has secured approval from the Rules Committee of his design and methods of manufacture. (b) Cupped Bats. An indentation in the end of the bat up to one inch in depth is permitted and may be no wider than two inches and no less than one inch in diameter. The indentation must be curved with no foreign substance added. (c) The bat handle, for not more than 18 inches from its end, may be covered or treated with any material or substance to improve the grip. Any such material or substance, which extends past the 18 inch limitation, shall cause the bat to be removed from the game. NOTE: If the umpire discovers that the bat does not conform to (c) above until a time during or after which the bat has been used in play, it shall not be grounds for declaring the batter out, or ejected from the game. (d) No colored bat may be used in a professional game unless approved by the Rules Committee.
Home-only starter is an intriguing idea. In that scenario I think he’d also have value as a once-through-the-order middle reliever once each road trip or twice on the 9-game trips. It’d keep him sharp, and it might be pretty tough for hitters to adjust to his stuff after six innings from a hard thrower, such as, say, Soriano.
Assuming you’d start him the first and last game of a 6-game home stand, he’d be ready to back up the spot starter on the road. Keep him in the dugout until the fifth inning so he can chart pitches and study the hitters, then send him to the pen for a nice, easy warm-up.
Moyer represents himself, and his skills are best suited to Safeco Field and the Mariner defense. If you can bring him back next year for 1 year at less than $3 million, you do so.
I don’t see how that happens, though, if Moyer’s primary goal for his last year is to win the brass ring as opposed to retiring as a Mariner. You’re asking him to take a hell of a hometown discount, on a market where anybody with an arm that isn’t completely severed from his body (see: Radke, Wright, etc.) seemingly can pick up 5-6 million a year on a multiyear deal, on a team that MIGHT be in position to contend in 2006…or might not, but certainly can’t be considered a favorite over Oakland or Anaheim for the division unless the signings/trades in the offseason are insanely in our favor.
Moyer would be making more than 1.5 million less than Piñiero in 2005, and probably less than Meche would were he and the M’s to go to arbitration- he’d be getting a one year salary comparable to what Shiggy’s making this year. Somehow, I’m just not seeing it. I suspect we’d be outbid.
#20–Dave said:”Jamie Moyer is clearly the best starting pitcher on the staff. It’s not even close. His fielding independant ERA is 4.31, 31st among AL qualifiers.”
what’s he up to now, 9 NDs this season?
Dave, I was under the impression that Moyer could not re-sign with the team for less than 20% of his current contract, unless they part ways and wait until May.
Free agents can sign for whatever they’d like. The 20 % rule is in regards to players who have been offered arbitration. The team is only allowed to offer a 20 % paycut in arbitration. But Moyer could play for the league minimum if he were so inclined.
I don’t see how that happens, though, if Moyer’s primary goal for his last year is to win the brass ring as opposed to retiring as a Mariner. You’re asking him to take a hell of a hometown discount, on a market where anybody with an arm that isn’t completely severed from his body (see: Radke, Wright, etc.) seemingly can pick up 5-6 million a year on a multiyear deal, on a team that MIGHT be in position to contend in 2006…or might not, but certainly can’t be considered a favorite over Oakland or Anaheim for the division unless the signings/trades in the offseason are insanely in our favor.
He’s 43, his ERA isn’t that good, his win total stinks, his strikeout rate is bad, and there’s not going to be one positive scouting report on him in any organization in baseball.
He’s going to come cheaply no matter who he plays for. 43 year olds who throw 82 MPH fastballs don’t command big contracts.
. . . which means he’ll sign a cheap, one-year deal with the A’s and still pitch better than Joel Pineiro.
He’s 43, his ERA isn’t that good, his win total stinks, his strikeout rate is bad, and there’s not going to be one positive scouting report on him in any organization in baseball.
Fair enough- but modern scouts hate ANYONE who can’t throw a decent fastball. Otherwise there’d be more than about 2 knuckleball pitchers in baseball at one time, like there were back as recently as the 70′s (when Wilbur Wood, the Niekro brothers and Charlie Hough were pitching, and pitching pretty well).
Hey, maybe Jamie’s going to learn a knuckleball during the offseason…
“He’s 43, his ERA isn’t that good, his win total stinks, his strikeout rate is bad, and there’s not going to be one positive scouting report on him in any organization in baseball.”
“Jamie Moyer is clearly the best starting pitcher on the staff. It’s not even close.”
What a depressing combination of comments Dave.
Your stand on Moyer is a little confusing though. You say he will come cheap in comment #27 but in comment #20 you state:
“He’s essentially tied with Brad Radke (4.29) and Barry Zito (4.36), both of whom I assume you’d love to have on the staff next year.”
Bad assumption. His price isn’t necessarily related to his value.
Will Carroll mentioned today that the Yankees might be a good fit for Moyer. Can you imagine Moyer in front of that Yankees defense?
Well, Rogers and Wells (which is as close as you’ll get to Jamie’s peer group) are making more than 3 million. But not a LOT more (a little under 4 for Rogers, 4 for Wells, both on two year deals). So maybe 3 million for Moyer on a one year isn’t unreasonable…but I still suspect it’s a lowball offer, and I wouldn’t blanch at going up a million if the alternative is having to do the Aaron Sele/Dan Reichert Dumpster Dive for another starter.
Guess we’ll find out in December or so.
Well, if Will Caroll says so…
Here’s my stance on Moyer. He’s still an effective end-of-rotation starter whose skills play perfectly for Safeco Field. His best chance for success is in Seattle, and I’ve seen no indication that he would be inclined to leave unless he was forced to. His overall raw numbers, the ones that will drive his value in the marketplace, are not very good, and combined with his age and lack of velocity, I don’t see much of a market for him being created.
Moyer took less to stay with the M’s last time. I believe he would be willing to do so again. 1 year, $3 million is a fair offer for a 43-year-old junkballer. And yes, the fact that he’s the best pitcher on this staff is a sad commentary on the other four pitchers.
re: trades, Harold Reynolds just said that when Seattle and trades come up, he hears the names of Moyer, Guardado … and Sexson? Of course, he also thinks the A’s are in the Burnett sweepstakes, and might also want Nevin.
MSB…#34 Sexon? You think this could happen?
Ernie
Mountainman Ernie said: “MSB…#34 Sexon? You think this could happen?”
no
35. well if you were offered something outrageous for him, why not? Yes it is one more piece to fill, but if you fill 2-3 others then you are ahead in the game. Besides, it has been discussed on this board many times how 1B sluggers are easiest to come by…
Good win last night. Now trade for Giambi, Posada, and Sheffield. NY take any three plus the Putz. Except Sexon or Beltre. Let’s let Moyer play for the champs.
Ernie
No way Sexson gets traded. Not without multiple MLB ready pitchers coming back and no team in the playoff hunt is going to do that.
# 38 Let’s give them any five, Yes Ichiro too, except Sexon and Beltre.
Ernie
Is there a possibility that our starting rotation has been relying too much on our defense?
I remember the saying about defense taking the night off when Randy pitched. Why couldn’t the reverse be true?
It’s one explanation for the lousy fielding independent ERA of this team.
His best chance for success is in Seattle
I’d agree that Seattle’s the best environment for his stats and performance, but if his remaining goal is to play in a World Series, it’s not happening in Seattle in 2005, and it’s fairly iffy for 2006 if he stays here… and I think he could be reasonably successful with a better team overall in a decent park, as long as we’re not talking Coors Field or having a statue in CF (heeeellllloooo, Bernie!). While Oakland’s OF defense isn’t as good as ours, Swisher and Kotsay aren’t garbage, and the foul ground at the Coliseum could help him, for instance.
I think the fact that Jamie’s also as good as having a second pitching coash might be noticed by some other GM’s as well- maybe even a savvy scout who isn’t obsessed with tools and notices results.
To sum up: I think there might be a mild market for him, enough of one that he’ll have options if he thinks he has a better chance at a ring elsewhere, he can get one. And sadly, that might be true- even if the M’s go .500 the rest of the year they’ll still be a 75 win team or so, and while 90 wins and the postseason isn’t impossible at all from that point (and is orders of magnitude more likely than going from 63 to 90 wins), it’s certainly no guarantee.
It’s one explanation for the lousy fielding independent ERA of this team.
Or, you know, they just might suck.
I’m going to go with “suck”, seeing as I don’t think we’ve seen a double-digit K game from the starting staff yet, and the BB/9 IP ratio’s not so good either.
4 guys with bad fastballs and one guy who throws to continents instead of spots? Ugh. At least Jamie HITS his spots with his 82 MPH meatballs.
ESPN’s transactions claim that the M’s activated Dave Hansen and returned Snelling to Tacoma today. Haven’t seen it anywhere else yet, but if this is true it means that a trade of Randy Winn is unlikely (or they’re planning on starting WFB in LF for a few days ’til Snelling can be recalled).
I had assumed that now that Snelling had remained up and we were real close to the trade deadline that they would keep him til the 31st to avoid the 10 day waiting period when/if Winn is traded. Unless they have an injury up their sleeves (DL Thornton?), they wouldn’t be able to call up Snelling til next Friday, five days after the deadline. The deadline is 1 PM Pacific this Sunday and the M’s game that day starts at 1:05 so if Winn is dealt he wouldn’t be able to play for Seattle on Sunday…could we possibly see WFB starting for 4 straight games or more in LF???
Here’s the link to ESPN’s transactions page:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
#44 earlier you mentioned about Bentancourt doing poorly with the bat. Have you seen his numbers? I know it’s early but before starting in AA he had not played baseball for one year. He is now hitting about .300. He has speed (see XBH) and is seemingly a quick learner: his walks have been steadily increasing. Now, if he can work on his BS/CS then we’ll have a lesser version of Ichiro but still a good player.
As for the Moyer-for-next-year backers, why bring back Moyer when the M’s have Livingston. He is what Moyer used to be, but cheaper and younger. I hope Moyer doesn’t come back.
#42– eponymous coward said:”To sum up: I think there might be a mild market for him, enough of one that he’ll have options if he thinks he has a better chance at a ring elsewhere, he can get one.”
a week or so back when the trade subject came up, Drayer on KOMO opined that based on things he’s talked about through the years, she thought that it wouldn’t just be a team’s chance to win that went into any decision he made, but that he would also think about the team, the ballpark, the mound, the coaches, the defense, etc etc…
Or, you know, they just might suck.
Maybe Bryan Price sucks.
“As for the Moyer-for-next-year backers, why bring back Moyer when the M’s have Livingston. He is what Moyer used to be, but cheaper and younger. I hope Moyer doesn’t come back.”
Sigh.
The point of a major league team is not to field the most diverse roster, but to play the best players possible. The Mariner’s rotation is absolutely in shambles, so bringing back the best starter is prudent, even if we have a similiar player in the minors. We are not going to be able to find 5 pitchers better than Moyer by the start of 2006, so signing him to a cheap, one year deal is probably going to be a necessity.
Why do you think Moyer will still be good next year? He’s 43 and has been getting worse for years.
Signing him risks that he’ll turn into another pumpkin aka Olerud and Boone.
Doyle’s in Tacoma, it’s true.
re 51
As opposed to all the other pumpkins we already got?
Nah, take your chances with possible-not-yet pumpkins…..
I don’t think he will be good, but he should be decent and he won’t cost a whole lot. Like I said, we most likely won’t be able to find 5 starters better than him before next season. Also, he won’t cost as much as we were paying Olerud and Boone, and the team probably won’t be relying on him as much they were with John and Bret (he’d be the fourth a fifth starter, whereas those two were starting position players). It would also give someone like Livingston more time in the minors, which he will probably need.
#45 I think Snelling won’t be reporting to Tacoma anytime soon. He will likely be in limbo for a few days until a trade for Winn happens.
Okay, those who prefer to see Livingston on the roster next year raise your hand… let’s see… 1 2 3 4 5…and you and you, yes, okay. Now, those who prefer to see Moyer on there.. okay… 1, uh 1, anyone else?
ray, where did I say I didn’t want to see Livingston next year? While your looking for that, you could also point out where I said that having Livingston in the rotation and Moyer starting was mutually exclusive.
Thanks.
In terms of Snelling being sent down, weren’t the M’s shopping Dave Hansen to anyone who will listen? And isn’t there a rule against trading a player on the DL? If so I’m thinking this may be to free up Hansen to be dealt rather than anything else. I wouldn’t be suprised if Snelling doesn’t report to Tacoma until the very last second.
Ya know, I was thinking the same thing about Jamie getting old and ineffective after the 2000 season. Then he proved me wrong for 3 straight years. Then after last year, I thought his time was up again. He is of course starting to slip at age 42, but given how he is pitching right now, he IS the best starter on our staff and I would not count him out for next year — not yet, anyway.
I hope he is able to stay on the staff as the #5 starter next year and I hope he retires at some point right into Brian Price’s job.
If you bring Jamie back and let Livingston start the year in Triple-A, and Jamie’s terrible, guess what, you can then call up Livingston and admit your mistake.
If you let Jamie go, and Livingston is terrible, you can then… trade for another pitcher? Call up Tom Oldham? The options aren’t exactly overflowing.
It’s not like Livingston has been dominating the PCL for 4 months and has nothing left to learn.