Campillo to DL, Nageotte up
DMZ · August 3, 2005 at 7:52 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Campillo’s currently on the 15-day DL with an “elbow strain”, word is that he’ll need ligament replacement surgery. As if the rotation wasn’t in enough trouble already. Well, I hope everyone enjoyed seeing that inning of work from the junkballer, because that’s all we get until 2007, probably.
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86 Responses to “Campillo to DL, Nageotte up”
What’s the latest on Travis Blackley, anybody know?
So, anyone want to start a dead pool on the next injured M’s pitcher and when they go on the DL?
Kee-rist…
Are the Mariners members of a cult that believes enlightenment can be achieved through elbow and shoulder surgery? It sure seems that way. Why else would it be so popular among Mariner pitchers? I’m starting to think I should try it.
Can we hope that the injury gods got here a couple of days too early? Not to jinx, um….., that guy who’s pretty good whose name I will not pronounce in this space.
Um… Meche, who’ll miss his next start (or have it pushed back) and then go on the DL retroactive to tomorrow.
jason
I’d think we need to give this curse a name. Maybe trace back to the last M’s pitching prospect who turned out to be a good M’s talent (not a talent for another team).
And if you can’t come up with a name, you could always revert to the ‘Ayalla Effect’.
Yeah, that’s who’d I pick too.
What a train wreck. I imagine Ichiro might be starting by September. At least he’d have a good fastball.
Again, I recommend the M’s shut down Felix Hernandez for the rest of his career, in the best interests of protecting his arm.
#6: How about “Salkeld Syndrome”? Before he got hurt, dude could bring it.
I would name it after the pitcher with the greatest disparity between hope and injury. Something to remember Ryan Anderson by; call it “littleunitarianism”.
#6 – the last M’s pitching prospect who turned out to be a good M’s talent
There’s only ever been one – Langston. (Randy Johnson and Freddy Garcia not counted, as they were other teams’ prospects.)
DMZ,
Do you think Campillo’s injury wasn’t helped by the fact that Jorge was only on a rehab assignment for 13 days, 11 innings pitched in Arizona, then called up directly to start in Detroit?
Campillo needs TJ surgery, out for a year to a year and a half.
And it doesnt surprise me one damn bit.
Wouldn’t surprise me if Felix goes down tommorow.
The latest info I could find on the Web, almost a month old, said Blackley was soft-tossing 50 throws a day from 90 feet.
wow.
just wow.
this is just incredible. it’s time for the organization to do some soul searching re: pitching teaching, philosophy, coaching, etc.
back up the truck…it’s time to clean house here, too.
So with this limited information, I surmise that a curse was laid upon Mariner prospects once Langston was traded to the Expos. Sound about right?
I don’t know what kind of weight lifting program the pitchers in our organization are on…but whoever is running the conditioning program for pitchers needs to be looked at and probably fired.
I have a hard time believing if these guys were doing light work in the weight room with some tubing work they would be going down like this.
Light a candle for Felix?
What the hell is Felix’s middle name?
Let’s hope Felix is watched very closely and not pushed beyond 4 innings depending how long the innings are. “Earl Weaver’s Strategy” said he likes to use rookie pitchers in long relief.
Below is Felix’s innings pitched after his injury.
June 15th Placed on Disabled List, Out with bursitis
*July 10th 1.0 inning pitched in relief
*July 14th 2.0 innings pitched in relief
*July 17th 1.0 inning pitched in relief
*July 21st 3.0 innings pitched in relief
*July 26th 3.1 innings pitched in relief
July 30th 4.0 innings pitched as a starter
#16 Actually, I would put it that the Mariners are only ever allowed to have one good prospect-turned-pitcher at a time. Langston was traded for Johnson was traded for Garcia. Since Garcia was traded for position players, we’re now allowed to have Felix. So there is hope for him to stay healthy.
There is a misnomer that pitching in the minors is safe and pitching in the majors hurts pitchers. Some people have said don’t bring up Felix to the majors because he will get hurt.
That being said, I wonder if the winter ball pitching of Campillo wore him down.
I believe most of these injuries are cumulative and perhaps winter ball has taken its toll on Campillo, Soriano, Madritsch, etc.
“Endangered”
:moon:
in all seriousness, we should probably keep Felix in tacoma and trade him after the season for a position prospect equivalent, or a collection of major leauge ready talent, just to cut our losses. if he doesnt blow that arm up, he’ll never sign long term with us anyway. (johnson, griffey, arod, garcia……….)
sadly im only half kidding,
I think you want “misperception” for “misnomer” there.
You have an awfully high bar for “good M’s talent”.
Joel Pineiro is second on the M’s all time park/league adjusted ERA before this year. He sucks now, but he gave us some good years.
Erik Hanson was a great pitcher for a while. M’s draft pick. Even Ryan Franklin has given us some good years, even if this isn’t one of them. Ed Vande Berg was good for a while. Shane Rawley had his moments. Jeff Nelson was ours from A ball on. Ed Nunez could pitch. We all remember when Mike Schooler fell apart, but he was deadly for four years before that. Billy Swift kicked ass for a long time — 1.99 ERA in ’91 for us. Mike Moore had a few moments. So did Dave Fleming. Rick Honeycutt had 20 years of good-to-great moments.
Matt Young — well, OK, let’s not talk about Matt Young.
But it’s not true that we’ve never had good pitchers or developed good pitchers.
Who needs pitching prospects when you have…a gun?
The weirdest thing I discovered looking up #24 was that Jeff Nelson has 114 starts in the minor leagues, according to http://www.thebaseballcube.com, who are not very sharp in the data-accuracy department.
Uh, OK, would everyone please….
STOP SAYING HIS NAME!!!!
Uh, that would be Gil Meche’s name, right……
#24 My bar would be “a good starter for multiple seasons” (I wasn’t really considering relievers). Hanson and Pineiro have at most two such, so they’re the closest. Moore has one, Fleming one. Franklin and Honeycutt were never more than mediocre for us. Swift was never a good starter in his Seattle career.
Doesn’t it worry ANYONE that this went down almost exactly like Soriano?
Elbow Strain
Rehab
Return to Play
Implosion
Tommy John Surgery
I may hate BP, but I also hate Dr. Larry Pedagena.
My bar is “amazing starter for entire career lasting at least 20 seasons”. I find no suitable candidates.
:moon:
Campillo was quoted in the Times saying that he’d ‘had problems with the elbow for sometime, but this time it was worse.’ Pretty typical for T-J surgery. He didn’t get this injury at Tacoma but was well on his way when he arrived in the organization. I’m still happy that the Ms signed him. He was worth the shot.
. . . By now, I’m so inured to the ‘decline and fall’ of pitching hopefuls in the Ms organization that this outcome doesn’t even hit me at all. I want to see a guy get a half dozen effective starts before I even start to get interested. Bobby Mads was more disappointing.
Pray for Felix.
#30: Don Sutton?
Can anyone provide insight about organizational approaches to pitching technique or conditioning? I mean, does someone at the top of an organization say, “We think these pitching mechanics are best” and make a concerted effort to coach them?
Doesn’t seem practical to approach Ryan Anderson (big-money draft pick and a guy you can influence from a young age; unusual body; immature work ethic; lots of pressure to perform) the same as Campillo (older guy, exposed to several coaches, etc.).
Can you really attribute injuries to pitchers in the organization to any one person or philosophy?
SP
#34: The Lookout Landing gang has had some excellent posts with educated hypotheses on that subject. Head over there and troll through the archives.
just for the sake of being positive – yes, I did enjoy seeing that inning of work from the junkballer.
okthen.
28: Erik Hanson had a sub-4 ERA as a starter for five of his six seasons here, well below league. That’s good pitching, even if the teams sucked and his win totals were unimpressive. Moore had two good starting years here, and one more above average (barely). Franklin’s ERA was below league average for his whole time here until last year. Pineiro ditto. Swiftie was a bad starter here, but great out of the pen, and a great starter for quite a while in SF — he might be the best starter after Langston this system ever produced.
I’m not disputing that it’s a less than stellar record overall, but it’s not completely garbage. And I don’t think it’s fair to limit yourself to players who starred for us — it’s not the system’s fault guys got traded out. Hmm, our position players, after the Big Two isn’t much to scream about either.
The whole point of this thread was to come up with a name for the repeated injuries that seem to be affecting our pitching prospects, right?
This site was able to come up with ‘King’ Felix, and I think their new mission should be creative nicknames for different scenarios, curses, streaks, etc…
Gas Station Employee: I’m picking up your sarcasm.
Richard Hayden: Well, I should hope so, because I’m laying it on pretty thick.
The Curse Of The Little Unit
“The Salkeld Mind Meld”
If it hasn’t been said, I just saw that Felix is featured on the baseball home page of Sportsline:
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb
Hopefully, it isn’t like the Sports Illustrated cover jinx.
I don’t blame the M’s pitching philosophy for Campillo’s injury. He has not been with them long enough for them to do damage. Blame should go to the team doctors, physicians, and trainers who seem to fail to recognize injuries and recommend appropriate and timely action.
And Mike Moore had more than one good season. His won loss record is lousy, but he played on lousy teams.
This is really getting old. If I were the Ms ownership I would be on the phone first thing tomorrow morning to the best trainers and doctors I could find. Campillo may have been hurt before we got him, but clearly something is very, very wrong with how we are training our pitchers.
Disturbing M’s pitching factoid: from 1983 to 1990, the M’s single-season ERA mark was held by…. Matt Young. Hanson beat it in ’90, then Randy took over in ’94.
I’m getting nostalgic for the miserable, horrible, soul-destroying, faceless garbage teams of the early eighties. That doesn’t bode well for today, does it?
Prediction: George Sherrill and Jamie Moyer will be hit by the same car on the way to the park tomorrow, and Felix will be arrested for shoplifting a brassiere in a department store (Detroit still has department stores, right?) And Jeff Harris will be struck down by a tainted breakfast burrito. Our starting pitcher on Friday will be that kid on USSM who claims he can throw 80.
The forfeit is starting to look attractive.
Why this happened:
1) Campillo has a mechanically unsound pitching motion that puts tons of stress on his arm and elbow, a motion Mariners coaching did nothing to correct.
2) Campillo pitched winter ball, obviously using said throwing motion, and had no downtime prior to Spring Training.
3) As inferred in #1, the coaching staff at all levels of the organization did nothing to improve his mechanics.
Innings pitched aren’t the culprit, as pitchers in decades past threw tons more innings than pitchers do today and many had relatively long careers. It’s bad mechanics that have caused many of the arm injuries we see today.
King Felix’s middle name is “Abraham.” From now on, for his sake, please refer to him as “President Abe.”
Newspapers are now emulating the Mariners’ breakneck approach to recent roster management.
Today, the Gannett Corp. traded The Olympian, The Bellingham Herald and The Idaho Statesman to Knight-Ridder Inc. (49 percent owner of The Seattle Times) for the Tallahassee (Fla.) Press-Democrat and an undisclosed amount of cash. True story.
More random facts:
Position of 2005 M’s pitchers on M’s all-time Games Started list:
Moyer, 1st (287)
Pineiro, 11th (112) (tie)
Meche, 12th (106)
Franklin, 13th (96)
Sele, 18th, (88)
Position of 2005 M’s pitchers on M’s all-time Games list:
Nelson, 1st (421) (huge margin)
Moyer, 4th (288)
Hasegawa, 13th (216)
Franklin, 20th, (171)
Mateo, 28th (143)
Position of 2005 M’s pitchers on M’s all-time K list:
Moyer, 2nd (1134)
Pineiro, 10th (527)
Nelson, 11th (467)
Meche, 13th (406)
Franklin, 14th (398)
44 – Was that Corco who claimed to throw 80?
re: 46
as Biblical/Hebrew scholars know, Abraham means “Father of Many”. Since the “Doyle” strategy seemed to work for the Aussie, i say we do the same for Felix…except with the twist. I suggest “Big Daddy” Hernandez.
or perhaps the Spanish equivalent
El Cartelua, folks.
47. Have any of these newspapers had a history of editor replacement surgery? Could their problems be caused by editor overuse or by poor editing?
Being Gannett papers, the answer is almost certainly yes. Jeff’s wife worked for The Bellingham Herald for several years and I’m sure he or she could enlighten us.
#45 Re: Bad mechanics are to blame for the large number of pitching injuries
I don’t think you can just say that modern pitchers don’t have mechanics like the old-timers did, and that’s why the old-timers could pitch a lot of innings and not get hurt. I think there’s probably a lot more to it than that. Pitchers today throw with more speed and throw at max effort more often than pitchers in bygone eras. There are a lot more leagues for players to play in now, so they may wind up pitching all year long, whereas that wasn’t necessarily the case when players didn’t make enough money for baseball to be a full-time job. I’m sure bad mechanics are a main cause of many arm injuries, but I’m not convinced at all that today’s pitchers have much worse mechanics than pitchers in earlier times.
Before Tommy John surgery, did pitchers try to pitch through the pain or did they just retire immediately?
I think the Campillo injury and Franklin suspension might delay Pineiro going to Tacoma and/or Shiggy’s release. Why would the M’s think of DFAing Shiggy but bring Kida up?
Not much left in the pitching stable in Tacoma now. I don’t see Livingston/Bazardo/Foppert getting Sept. looks and I really hope Baek does not get promoted.
LONG-TERM PITCHING INJURIES (#S 13, 17, 24, 45, and others) – I think we’re being premature about this. IIRC, Derek has completed only 2/3 of his “Labor of Love.”
We should wait until he assembles all his data, and analyzes it. One of the things we’ll note–some already have–is that the Mariners are not the worst organization when it comes to long-term arm injuries to its pitching prospects.
As tempting as it is to blame yet another arm injury on the organization, there’s an interesting non-public backstory to this one that would change almost everyone’s opinion if it got out.
Basically, there’s a lot more here than meets the eye.
Maybe we should start requiring an elbow and shoulder MRI for all of our pitchers 24 hours prior to each start.
Actually, since I know very little about the way these injuries develop and occur, I don’t really know if it’s something that shows any predictive evidence. That said, I’ve got a strange feeling that in 15-20 years we’re going to look back on this era as the “dark ages” of preventitive sports medicine…but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
As tempting as it is to blame yet another arm injury on the organization, there’s an interesting non-public backstory to this one that would change almost everyone’s opinion if it got out.
This is the sort of stuff that (no offense, Dave, because it’s my pet peeve, probably irrational, and certainly not your duty to breach a confidence) makes me gnash my teeth. It’s like hearing “Hey, I know what the review you are about to get from your boss is going to say, but I’m not telling you”. It inflames my sense of nagging curiosity.
Don’t get me wrong, I can relate. I work in the software industry, where having to say “Sorry, can’t talk about stuff that’s under NDA” is all too routine. But I hate having to say things like that.
Anyway, uh, yeah, I wasn’t going to go into the “OMG TEH M’S SCREWED UP ANOTHER PITCHER!!111″ mode. The funny part is that I remember being in an argument here that Price messes up pitching mechanics a few days ago, as part of him being a butcher of a pitching coach- and now the M’s are accused by other posters of being indifferent to Campillo’s mechanics. I think they call that “Heads you lose, tails I win”.
Ah! Ugh, it might just be my libertarian leanings, but I HATE “non-public” stuff, because it totally screws up the way in which I would form a conclusion — since I’m lacking all of the premises — regarding a given subject. Yeah, okay, I realize that the argument about whether or not the mass public is deserving to be privy of certain information is sound and valid; yet, it still greatly annoys me. Sure, alright, I understand the Seattle Mariners are a private entity — though, one might dispute that the fact that taxpayers financially funded the building of the organization’s staduim thereby earns them the right to be made aware of each and every thing concerning the franchise — so yeah, this is another debate that has many angles to it. Anyhow, with all things considered, I’m just flat-out agitated ’bout the Mariners’ organization in general . . . from Hiroshi Yamauchi, to John Ellis, to Howard Lincoln, to Chuck Armstrong, to Bill Bavasi, to Lee Pelekoudas, to Benny Looper, to Mike Hargrove, to Don Baylor, to Rick Griffin, to Allan Wirtala, to the damn groundkeepers.
I really don’t understand why this stuff bothers you guys so much. Dave knows something, he can’t tell us, but he offers us the conclusion he’s drawn with that information. Certainly we’re not completely informed, but if you trust Dave (as I do), you at least have a good reason to believe this one isn’t on the M’s this time.
IOW, I’m glad Dave mentioned this, even if he can’t tell us the full story. And honestly, people being driven crazy about not knowing everything about something that really isn’t any of their business. . .well, THAT drives me crazy. I’m pretty comfortable knowing that their are secrets and skeletons in every field and industry. I really don’t care that I don’t know every detail about what goes on in the world.
I would just like to point out that nobody forced Dave to type his little @#$*teasing statement either.
You bastard. I hate you.
Of course nobody forced him to do it. But I’m glad he did. If the choices are A) You know neither the evidence nor the conclusion or B) You don’t know the evidence but do know the conclusion or C) You know both the evidence and the conclusion, but Dave burns his source and never gets inside info again, I for one would much rather have B than either of the other alternatives.
So I guess what I’m saying is, thank you Dave.
Solution:
Mariners take their 17-20 year old pitchers after they sign them and immediately give them TJ surgery. These pitchers are young and their arms don’t hurt yet, so they’ll recover faster.
Upside: the kids won’t blow out their arms in the segment of their careers that ought to include several of their best years. Downside: a fair amount of them won’t recover. However, they’ll have a better chance than they later on when the scar tissue has built up.
There are many bleeding-heart, hand-wringingly moral counter-arguments, of course, but most of them boil down to the contention that the surgery is unnecessary. Patently false: if the kid is both a prime pitching talent and owned by the Mariners, he’s eventually flaming out. Let’s just get the preemptive operation over with and move on.
58: Well, if there’s a backstory, Dave, holding back isn’t exactly helping the M’s credibility either.
I wonder what it is. Until then, I’ll keep blaming Pedegana for fun.
Re. #68: What credibility?
Anyhow, the Seattle Mariners’ management is, at this point in time, an utter farce. As it is, if they aren’t willing to be forthright about any and all information regarding Jorge Campillo’s elbow injury, then the blame for what went down is solely placed on the organization.
Uh, it’s late/early, so I meant to put in regards to post #66 in the post I just posted right before I posted this post. Wait . . . does that make sense? Yeah, okay, it does — sweet!
I don’t think Campillo’s injury has anything to do with the Mariners. The guy pitched for the Mexican League, Winter ball, and straight on to us, non stop.
How would Campillo fit into the Mariner’s troubles with pitcher attrition? Jorge was a Mariner for a whole 5 months.
Also, assuming that he does have TJ surgery… might it actually be BENEFICIAL to someone who throws soft garbage and a max 84-86mph fastball?
I mean, if he LOSES velocity, well no biggie there. And if he gains velocity, well that can’t hurt either, can it?
Way I see it, of all the pitchers who had to go down with TJ surgery, I think Campillo stands the best chance of making a reasonable recovery.
Send Pineiro and meche to Tacoma. They sux deep. THey forgot how to pitch. Call everybody that might be ML ready to make a test.
On a general note — we’ve talked about the rumor/no-rumor issue before, as it relates to topics like this (for instance, here — should Dave say “there’s something else afoot” if he can’t or won’t reveal what?) and the overwhelming response has been that we should say what we can, when we can.
There’s an argument that this leads to frustration and a whole other set of problems, and I sympathize with that but at the same time, given the choice between set of problems foo and set of problems bar, the readership overwhelmingly opted for bar.
What Derek said.
So basically, there is more to the Campillo injury, but the M’s organization wants it swept under the rug.
That’s not frustrating or anything…
It’s gotta be one of these:
(a) severely pumped-up ‘roid-raging Ryan Franklin greeted Campillo upon his arrival at the clubhouse that he tore his arm out of the socket
(b) Campillo went out drinking with Carlos Guillen in Detroit and fell off a barstool onto his elbow
(c) Campillo hurt his elbow carrying a “suitcase” up a flight of “stairs”, like Sasaki did — where, like Sasaki, the two nouns in quotes are widely believed to secretly be “half-gallon of Scotch” and “fancy”.
(d) Campillo’s elbow deliberately injured in showers by Pineiro in last-ditch effort to save career
(e) Campillo actually has 115-MPH fastball, but has been pitching hurt this whole time.
and just a reminder– with the implementation of HIPAA the M’s and their medical staff (like every other business) are not allowed to release medical information about an employee without that employee’s permission.
Bit of a change from the comments preceding, but how did Nageotte look last night? I only saw a boxscore and its a bit hard to tell. Was he throwing well, what kind of a role will he have for the rest of the season?
That there is “more than meets the eye” when Dave cites a “non-public backstory” makes perfect sense to me. I, for one, simply do not believe that the M’s would deliberately waste the $$millions invested in scouting and development (and incur $$millions more in medical and rehab bills) by neglecting the proper care of their pitchers’ arms.
In reality, I surmise, certain parallels can be drawn between “bad mechanics” and steroid use. The incentive to add some heat to a fastball or bite to a slider at the risk of one’s health is huge. Whether it’s done by abusing an arm or ingesting a PED, the risks and benefits are similar. Not everyone will make it by doing it the hard way (clean/good mechanics), so some will take the chance and hope they get away with it. The difference, of course, is that the chance you’ll get away with arm abuse is higher, at least for a while.
I’m not asserting that this specifically is what Dave’s “backstory” is all about. I’m just saying that anyone should be able to see this side of the story WITHOUT knowing what Dave knows. To simply blame the M’s organization for every problem, or to flame on Dave for alluding to another perspective, lowers the level of discussion to that of call-in talk radio, and this blog deserves better than that.
I suspect that non-revealing of sources (along with indications that there is more information where that came from which cannot be revealed) has been around since before the Romans.
Any information is better than no information. Not an issue.
Sherril pitched year around for 2 years he didnt need tj surgery.
So basically, there is more to the Campillo injury, but the M’s organization wants it swept under the rug.
No, I think it’s just the opposite — there’s more to the Campillo injury that the M’s want to tell everybody because it will make them look better but they can’t because of legal/privacy reasons. So somebody in the organization leaks it to Dave knowing they can trust him to keep the actual information secret but hint at it here to reassure the hardcore fans who populate USSMariner.
I’m not surprised that there is a back story, Imagine, you’re Jorge Campillo and the Mariners offer you a contract. Your elbow hurts, but do you turn the contract down? Of course not. You decide to live a “big lie”. I don’t mean to imply that Jorge Campillo is a horrible person; just that he believes he is getting his one chance to really improve his “lot in life”.
You scuffle your way through the season, trying to work through the pain. You are not sitting on a long-term, large financial commitment from the Mariners; so you don’t have the financial security others (Joel Piniero for example) have.
You start in the bigs, and can’t really hide the problem any more. The whole world is watching: the training staff is better, the pitching coach is better, and the opposing batters are better. It quickly becomes obvious that there is a problem.
End of the line.
Who’s at fault here? Most likely everyone involved at some point or another. Player and organization.
Of course I’m speculating here, without the benefit of any additional information. But it makes sense to me.
I agree with Gary: any information is better than no information.
And re #61 — AK, you just need to accept the fact that you can’t form anything more than a provisional conclusion about any current public events, because you never have all the information. All Dave has done in this case is bring attention to something you should have already realized: namely, that you don’t really know what’s going on, and you aren’t going to find out by reading the papers.
That’s just life.
My own personal “Guess the Conspiracy”:
The M’s knew there was a better than average chance he was going down with an injury when they scouted him, but figured he was worth a shot to see if they could get something for nothing.
Since Campillo got hurt while pitching in a big league game, does he get the big league minimum salary while he is rehabbing? In other words, did this guy just pick up ~ $300k a year for the next year for 1 inning’s work? I don’t begrudge him this, just wondering.
TIME TO GET A.J. BURNETT!!!
In free agency that is.