Perry says M’s should trade Ichiro, uses word “insouciance”

Jeff · November 21, 2005 at 9:27 am · Filed Under Mariners 

Hey all. I haven’t been around much lately, and that’s not likely to change for the next few days at least. But when I do start posting again in earnest, I may have some exciting news to show for it. Any road, thanks to the others for holding it down top notch in my absence.

Dayn Perry’s latest argues that the Mariners should trade Ichiro ASAP. This is kind of like saying you should wear plastic pants in the sauna for as long as possible: a bad idea made worse by the suggested timeframe.

The core of his logic is that Ichiro’s comments give Bill Bavasi the political cover “needed to do something especially bold.” He then repeats the old knocks on Ichiro about his lack of power relative to other corner outfielders. There’s also this bit:

Ichiro’s also a player whose actual value exceeds his perceived value, and that’s precisely the kind of player who needs to be traded.

I agree with the first clause in that sentence, but fear that Dayn mistakenly transposed the words “actual” and “perceived,” since the sentence as it is written contradicts his argument. Paging Dr. Freud.

Another unfounded assumption in the column is that the M’s are years from contending, and need to add to their core of young talent by off-loading an existing superstar. Dave did a fine job rebutting that notion a few days ago.

Look, this trade isn’t going to happen, not for (as Perry suggests) Philip Hughes and Eric Duncan, not for Jon Papelbon and Dustin Pedroia. And from my perspective, it’s a good thing that this isn’t going to happen.

The old saying goes that history favors the bold. Maybe. It favors the bold and wise much more, though.


49 Responses to “Perry says M’s should trade Ichiro, uses word “insouciance””

  1. Jeff on November 21st, 2005 9:32 am

    On the plus side, “insouciance” is a great word, and he also drops “vox populi”. Nice work, Dayn!

  2. Evan on November 21st, 2005 9:41 am

    I don’t understand this demand that players at certain positions exhibit specific hitting characteristics.

    By that reasoning wasn’t Rickey Henderson an inadequate LFer because he didn’t hit for enough power? Sure, his career OBP was .401, but he only slugged .419. And, as Dayn Perry said:

    …the most vital skill a corner defender can possess is power…

  3. misterwest on November 21st, 2005 9:46 am

    I would think that the tons of stolen bases that Rickey put up might have made his situation a little different.

  4. Evan on November 21st, 2005 9:47 am

    Not by Dayn’s reasoning.

  5. Jeff on November 21st, 2005 9:50 am

    I think that underscores Evan’s point. A valuable offensive player is a valuable offensive player, wherever on the diamond you situate him.

    A first baseman with Rickey Henderson’s numbers would be a Hall of Fame player even though you don’t think of first as a base-stealing position. Similarly, the fact that people think of corner outfield positions as power positions does not mean one should deride having a talented offensive player with limited power in right field.

  6. Dave on November 21st, 2005 9:52 am

    Dayn has a giant blind spot for Ichiro. He and I have hashed this through before. He’s a smart guy, but he likes certain player types, and Ichiro doesn’t fit his mold of a star. That’s his problem, not ours.

  7. chris w on November 21st, 2005 9:56 am

    From the perspective of pure baseball ability (i.e. ignoring marketing and the sheer entertainment value Ichiro brings), trading Ichiro might very well make sense. Of course, hypotheticals like that are pointless from a practical standpoint. If you separate Ichiro from his hype, he’s no longer Ichiro.

    I think a more interesting question, which has been bandied about here from time to time, is why Ichiro can’t/won’t play CF. As we learned in Dave’s post of last week, regarding the value of defense, a good defensive CF is extremely valuable – much moreso than a good RF. Would Ichiro not be good? That would you allow the Ms to trade Reed, who might bring back a good player or two in return.

  8. Scooter the Mighty on November 21st, 2005 9:57 am

    I think he’s right that it’s good to trade players who have higher percieved value than real value. I wouldn’t be against trading Ichiro if we got better value in return, but it’s hard to say trading Ichiro is a good idea without talking about who we would get. He’s certainly valuable to the Mariners as is.

  9. Mike Snow on November 21st, 2005 9:58 am

    Perry writes, “a player whose actual value exceeds his perceived value [is] precisely the kind of player who needs to be traded.” He has that backwards, perhaps inadvertently, but it’s symptomatic of the sloppy thinking here.

  10. Rusty on November 21st, 2005 10:09 am

    He also uses the word “modicum”. He was definitely on a roll with this piece.

  11. ChrisK on November 21st, 2005 10:11 am

    This seems like standard offseason “let’s write an article that fans will be interested in whether it has any merit or not”. No doubt the article will get forwarded on to various online forums and blogs and thus increase readership. I would imagine the whole “XX All-Star could/should get traded” article must be one of the easiest things to write about in terms of generating instant interest. Speaking of which, Finny must be copy-pasting his annual Ken Griffey article one of these days.

  12. Todd on November 21st, 2005 10:25 am

    I agree with ChrisK, #11. The one thing that bothers me about this article is that it will perpetuate more “Ichiro is on the trading block” articles and columns for guys in NY and Chicago who do not know less than nothing about the situation. (As Colbert would say, “Suntimes columnist Chris De Luca,I’m putting you on notice.”)

  13. Todd on November 21st, 2005 10:26 am

    Oops, should have written “who know less than nothing.” Looks like I committed a Dayn Perry.

  14. JMB on November 21st, 2005 10:31 am

    Todd’s also a poster whose actual value exceeds his perceived value, and that’s precisely the kind of poster who needs to post more often.

  15. Russ on November 21st, 2005 10:37 am

    Even if I agreed with the assessment of Ichiro!s offensive contributions, which I don’t, I would vote against any trade of him. The impact to the team’s revenue stream would so serverely impact our ability to maintain the current payroll that we’d be fighting a losing battle.

    Ichrio! is as valuable as any one player can get for a team. What he brings to the party in terms of pure baseball skill, thoughtfullness and market influence is so far reaching that I’m not sure we could even grasp the totality.

    The FO has either stumbled upon this or it was part of brillant plan to bring in a high profile Japanese player, either way it was and remains an inspired stoke of genius. Bringing Jojima on board only broadens the teams appeal for Japan and is an outstanding move on part of the FO. We bring another player who will appeal to an even wider audience and we set ourselves up to attract other MLB ready players from Japan. I’m not at all familler with the league but I’ve got to think they’ve got dozens of players who could make a career in MLB.

    I’m also hopeful that Jojima’s presence will bring a sense of balance and comfort to Ichiro. I hope that with Jojima in the clubhouse, Ichiro begins to take a leadership role by simple virtue of having another voice.

    I, for one, welcome our Japanese baseball playing overlords.

  16. Matt on November 21st, 2005 10:55 am

    I wonder where this so called sportswriter is from? Sounds pretty east cost biased to me. I bet hes a yankee fan lacthing on to a pipe dream. The idea of trading ichiro just because on paper we are not able to “compete” is nonsense. I think if the front office were to trade ichiro it would be telling the fans “hey were not going to even try to make the playoffs, maybe next year”. The front office has the money and talent to spend and trade to put together a team who can compete in the playoffs.

    Just look at what the giants did last year (even though it failed them) they built the team to win now because bonds time is running out before he gets hurt or retires. The team had many missing parts and was built for the moment. I think the mariners have a lot less missing parts and with the signing of jojima shows they want to win and not fold ship.

    The NY media in my opinion thinks that if the keep this pipedream of trading ichiro in the spotlight then overtime ichiro will keep on seeing or hearing about these rumors and grow frustrated and then be asked to be traded. What these NY fictional writers don’t know is that in the rare chance he is traded which will never happen two unknown prospects from the yankees poor farm is not going to cut it. It will take multiple major leauge talent and multiple top prospects. But its not going to happen so theres no reason to worry about it.

  17. JPWood on November 21st, 2005 10:56 am

    If what is motivating this trade frenzy (starting with McGrath in the TNT 2 weeks ago) is being fueled by the PI article by Morosi, that begat Go2 and McGrath… well, there is a little more to the story.
    A bunch of us Jap-Eng bilingual Mariner fans have attempted to find the Tokyo Shimbun or Kyodo wireline article that was the source of the “Ichiro doesn’t like cardplayers in the clubhouse” assertions and several follow-up telephone interviews with Seattle players. The only thing we have found is an undated, un-sited (face to face? telephone? in writing? who the hell knows) interview in a Bungei Shinju publication called “Number” that was copied/elaborated on by the above “reputable” Japanese press sources.

    With sincere apologies to Dr Ohta, cited as the primary translation source by Morosi: Nowhere in any of those articles does Ichiro ever mention cards, much less criticize him teammates for playing cards. The only time Ichiro mentions Hargrove (and not by name, but with the more honorific “kantoku”) is in reference to the Silva game on August 8.

    All of the rest that has been written and embroidered on concerning cards or personal accusations comes straight from the article’s writer, maybe added as atmosphere, maybe based on his/her being a pool reporter in Seattle with access to the clubhouse, or not. None of it can be traced to a direct quote from Ichiro from the articles that are available.

  18. mark from Oly. on November 21st, 2005 10:58 am

    I agree with #11 and #12 … didn’t an editor once say that op. articles aren’t about saying the right or wrong thing just that it is important people read and talk about the article?

    #15 Russ, “I, for one, welcome our Japanese baseball playing overlords.” … that made my day. Really.

    Personally, I really hope the M’s make the playoffs in 2006 just to show how foolish this guys are. Or maybe Ichiro gets really selfish and hits .425 and no homerunners.

  19. Jesse on November 21st, 2005 10:59 am

    The lamest thing about all this trade Ichiro nonsense as it relates to him being not the “correct” type of hitter to play RF, which is nothing new to anyone reading this, is that he’s not blocking anybody. He’s perfectly good enough to play center field if we ever find two good power-hitting corner outfielders that we want to make space for, and we have a huge hole open in left field that needs plugging before we worry about whether or not our RFer is hitting enough home runs.

    Now, if the point is that that Mariners need more power and trading Ichiro is the only way to get it, well, that’s an argument. It’s not one I’m fond of but at least it makes sense. Any discussion about trading Ichiro, which I would be skeptical about anyway, is totally undermined when people try to rely on his position to justify why he’s not good enough. Because by any measure his skill set is fantastic for CF, which he would be playing right now if we had two crappy-defense, great-slugging outfielders on our roster right now.

    But just like moving Ichiro to center makes no sense given our current roster, trading Ichiro because a RFer needs to hit for power is nonsense. If Mr. Perry wants to call him overpaid and overvalued, that’s his prerogative, but unless we can get Miguel Cabrera or something I have trouble seeing how it helps the OF any overall. It’s the wrong place to start an analysis from.

  20. Kelly M on November 21st, 2005 11:13 am

    Yes, Dayn’s opinions are certainly worth their weight in gold. My respect for him only increased when I saw that his musings on how the steroid scandal in baseball was overhyped were published in the well-respected, “Reason” magazine.

    What made me laugh was was Dayn’s quote about how the MSM sports media distorts issues:

    “In “Pumped-Up Hysteria” (page 32), sportswriter Dayn Perry wonders whether steroid use by baseball players merits such a fuss. A Mississippi native who now lives in Austin, Texas, Perry did some weightlifting in high school and college. But his interest in steroid hype has more to do with fellow sportswriters than with sports itself. “I’m interested in how the mainstream sports media tend to distort issues,” he says, “steroids being just one example.”

    The article also compares the use of steroids to other enhancements like batting helmets. “As for baseball’s competitive integrity, steroids pose no greater threat than did other historically contingent “enhancements,” ranging from batting helmets to the color line.”

    Not surprisingly, the notion of trading Ichiro is not the first article that Dayn has written where he advocates trading a high profile player. Just 114 days ago he advised the Cubs to trade Kerry Woods. The logic to trade Woods was essentially the same as Ichiro: perceived value is greater than actual value.

    Now, Dayn’s larger point that high profile players can often be traded for a gross of valuable minor leaguers is undeniably true. But the job of reporters and columnists like Dayn is to take an undeniable truth and somehow spin out a few column inches of type everyday.

    The difference between guys like Dayn and the authors and founders of this blog is that Derek and Dave and the crew aspire to back up their opinions with facts. They may not always get everything right, but I love reading their posts because they aspire to replace facts for opinion.

    The one thing that I’ve learned over the past few years, and here I’m specifically thinking about Judy Miller’s reporting on Iraq WMDs in the New York Times, is that everything you read has to be taken with a grain of salt. Those guys have an agenda, and that agenda is to get published and make money. Sometimes that agenda and well-reasoned, factual arguments overlap. Sometimes not.

  21. Jake L. on November 21st, 2005 11:20 am

    Okay, maybe I’m taking this way too personally, but I really hate it when East Coast-based sports writers throw out irrational trade proposals for superstar players that don’t play for the Yankees or Red Sox (not that Dayn Perry necessarily fits that mold). I read earlier today in an com chat with Jerry Crasnick that a Yankee fan thought we should deal Ichiro for Carl Pavano and Robinson Cano. Is that much worse than Philip Hughes and Eric Duncan?

    Hey, the Devil Rays and Brewers might want to look to cash in their stars for prospects and payroll flexibility, but someone might want to clue these people in to the fact that we have a budget to actually compete. I want to know why these people thinks it’s okay for the Yankees (and Red Sox and Cardinals and Dodgers) to throw us their crumbs, and we should be grateful for the opportunity.

    I like th way Perry ends the colom: “Ichiro has been a pioneering force in baseball, and the Mariners owe much of their semi-recent success to him. However, it’s best for the future of the organization to trade him posthaste.” Maybe I’m overreacting, but I get the sense that, now that Ichiro has established the fact that he can compete amogst American players in the MLB, that some think it’s time he goes to a big-market team where he can get the (American) over-exposure that he truly deserves. A player can become a superstar without playing for the Yankees, and I wish some people would realize that before they propose trades that will cripple our team. Seattle is not Siberia, and we don’t need to be a feeder team to the Yankees to survive, believe it or not.

  22. Evan on November 21st, 2005 11:23 am

    I love Reason, and I think Dayn’s article there is excellent. He makes a very strong logical argument that people can’t rationally be as upset as they are without abandoning previously held positions. To do otherwise involves inherent contradictions.

    But this piece on Ichiro was awful. He’s actually ignored exactly the sort of thinking he advocates in the Reason article – not holding opinions unless you know why you hold them – and I expect he’d be hard-pressed to explain why corner defenders need to hit for power. He’s applying a loose generalisation instantially, and any decent logician can see it.

  23. Evan on November 21st, 2005 11:25 am

    To be fair to Dayn, maybe he’s writing to his audience. The people who read Reason aren’t the same people who read FoxSports, and FoxSports readers would probably object to his Reason article (though they’d be wrong) just as strongly as Reason readers would find fault with his FoxSports article.

  24. duder on November 21st, 2005 11:46 am

    I think that he fixed it. It now reads “Ichiro’s also a player whose perceived value exceeds his actual value, and that’s precisely the kind of player who needs to be traded.” Maybe he peeked over here.

  25. tede on November 21st, 2005 12:41 pm

    Dayn Perry is a hack. I don’t get Dave’s (#6) semi-defense of the guy.

    So Dayn prefers power hitters?

    Well here’s his suggestion for “Five MLB Trades That Need To Happen” from July 28.

    “Mets acquire 1B Richie Sexson from Mariners
    …As for first base, the Mets have been making do with the likes of Doug Mienkiewicz and Jose Offerman. Not surprisingly, they haven’t provided adequate production by first base standards. Shea is a brutal park for right-handed power hitters, but so is Safeco, where Sexson is slugging .512 on the season. On the road this year, Sexson is hitting a robust .302 AVG/.407 OBP/.581 SLG.

    From Seattle’s perspective, they get a mid-grade prospect or two out of the deal and get out from under the $40 million or so remaining on Sexson’s contract.”

    This is the type of writing that gets a writer a job with Newsday or the NYPost.

  26. Dave on November 21st, 2005 12:49 pm

    I know Dayn personally, so I’d guess I’m a little more qualified to talk about him than someone who just reads his columns.

  27. eponymous coward on November 21st, 2005 1:03 pm

    Iit looks like Dayn thinks the M’s need to start a fire sale if he’s suggesting dumping Ichiro and Sexson.

    I don’t get it, but a cursory observation of the M’s record (“oh, they suck, they should burn it down and start over”) without examining the issue of where the M’s stand in depth might suggest it. Maybe he think’s the M’s can’t afford 80-90 million in salary, or they should do a Cleveland/Florida style act for the next couple of years- despite the fact that attendance, while not great, hasn’t imploded.

  28. gary on November 21st, 2005 1:15 pm

    The phrase cited, viz.,

    Ichiro’s also a player whose actual value exceeds his perceived value, and that’s precisely the kind of player who needs to be traded.

    also betrays a rudimentary error in logic, namely that any player whose perceived value exceeds his actual value needs to be traded.

    If a player has a certain value and you can’t replace that value with a player of a greater value, it doesn’t matter how much higher his perceived value is than his actual value, you need to keep him until he becomes too expensive.

  29. Evan on November 21st, 2005 1:16 pm

    You have to like him. You can’t spell Dayn without Ayn.

    So it’s appropriate that he gets published in Reason.

  30. shirts on November 21st, 2005 2:02 pm

    No more contradictory statement, as Jeff speculated, it probably was not intentional and has been changed. Someone at FOX reading USSM?

  31. contributor on November 21st, 2005 2:42 pm

    It seems a lot of people here are killing the messenger… come on, folks, trading him is at least an option worth exploring, depending on who you could get… at the same time, it affords me the opportunity to express my weariness with those who say it’s “so much fun to watch Ichiro play” … i don’t get that… watching a guy swat weak grounders to the left side is “fun”?

  32. Jon on November 21st, 2005 2:43 pm

    I don’t see how trading Ichiro will help. I do see how building around Ichiro will help.

    I also see how every pundit has a lot of time on his or her hands right now. So why not make bold statements?

    I think the M’s should trade King Felix RIGHT NOW! Why? They can get a lot for him, which will make them better.

    See, I can be a pundit, too.

    My actual value exceeds my perceived value, incidentally.

    I trust the M’s will kibosh this before it becomes an assumed fact (that Ichiro is on the block).

  33. tede on November 21st, 2005 3:10 pm

    Jon #32 “I think the M’s should trade King Felix RIGHT NOW! Why? They can get a lot for him, which will make them better.”
    Be patient.
    Dayn is saving that idea for his annual July trading deadline (“Five Trades That MUST Be Made”) column. You’ll have to wait until then to learn if Dayn is sending Felix to either the Yankees or the Mets. Don’t worry the M’s will get some “mid-range” prospects back.

  34. Jerry on November 21st, 2005 3:38 pm

    I think that Perry is right.

    With the way the free agent market is right now, especially with the contract demands connected to Jonny Damon right now, I think that some team will way overspend on Ichiro. Dayne lists a few of the clubs that might be interested: Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Mets, Orioles, Phillies, Braves, Cubs, Dodgers and Giants.

    That is a lot of clubs. The bidding for Ichiro could get into the realm of ludicrious packages.

    If you were Bavasi, and, say, the Red Sox offered up Jon Papelbon, Jon Lester, and Hanley Ramirez for Ichiro. That would be tough to walk away from. Or if the Phillies included prospects with Bobby Abreu. Or the Cubbies packaged Carlos Zambrano with prospects.

    I really believe that no player is untouchable. Bidding for Ichiro could get way out of hand. Bavasi would be stupid to not at least listen to offers. I wouldn’t TRY to trade him, but I would field offers and take the best one if the M’s could score 2-3 cheap players who could help them right away.

    One thing that Dayne doesn’t mention about the negatives of trading Ichiro is the Japanese market factor. I have to think that having Ichiro helped us get Johjima, and that having him on the roster earns the club a whole lot of money. Despite what Dayne says, this isn’t the perfect time to deal Ichiro. The ideal situation would be if the M’s could have gotten Matsuzaka to replace the Japan-mania factor, then move him. Johjima is just not on that same level.

    On the other hand, a package of players like Matt Cain, Noah Lowry, and Eddy Martinez-Esteve from the Giants would be tough to pass up. The M’s could then use the money they save from Ichiro’s contract, plus what they have to spend already, to add AJ Burnett AND Brian Giles. I think that this would leave the M’s better off in 2006, and definitely better off down the road.

  35. Shane on November 21st, 2005 4:16 pm

    I don’t get why everyone is so against the possibiliy of trading Ichiro. Aside from hits (2nd), he didn’t come near leading the league in any offence catagory. BA – 23rd; OBP – 73rd; SLG – 88th; OPS – 80th; BB – 92nd; SB – 11th.

    Ichiro has intangible value – fan favorite, havoc on the basepaths, rocket arm in right. But given our dismal offence last year, and given that Ichiro has no future upside (he’s not going to get any better), and given that, it at least appears, he isn’t a ‘club house leader’ due to the language barrier perhaps, why not trade while his value is high.

    Isn’t this just another example of Seattle fans being obsessed with our sentimental ‘stars’. (ie. the continuous “bring back Junior” threads still being posted on the Seattle message boards of the world.)

  36. ChrisK on November 21st, 2005 4:33 pm

    Ichiro is a marketing cash cow for the Mariners. Regardless of anything we get back in terms of baseball talent, it would be absolutely dwarfed by the loss in revenue from ticket sales, merchandising and general team interest that Ichiro directly impacts. There is no way the Mariners will trade him. Even if it makes complete baseball sense, it won’t make BUSINESS sense to the ownership group. And that’s what drives all their decisions.

  37. Russ on November 21st, 2005 4:35 pm


    and given that Ichiro has no future upside (he’s not going to get any better)

    That is the part eveybody misses. Even he doesn’t ever improve, he is still an impact player game to game. The stats are important, no doubt. I’m not big believer in the ‘intangibles’ however Ichrio makes plays that change AB’s and innings day in and day out. Don’t look only at BA and slugging.

    Look at the (lack of) errors committed, base runners who simply don’t try to advance which allows the pitcher to work unmolested. Balls caught on the foul line that no mortal would have even gotten a look at. Look at the balls brought back from over the wall. The Ms stunk the last two years, little of which can be contributed to Ichiro. There are not many players on that team who you can say that about. In fact, you can say that beyond Felix, Ritchie and Ichiro, few on the team were a bright spot.

  38. Rusty on November 21st, 2005 4:50 pm

    If you were Bavasi, and, say, the Red Sox offered up Jon Papelbon, Jon Lester, and Hanley Ramirez for Ichiro. That would be tough to walk away from.

    Can someone please tell me why everyone in MLB seems infatuated with Hanley Ramirez? I gotta be missing something.

  39. LB on November 21st, 2005 6:37 pm

    #38: Hanley’s very, very toolsy. And if recent reports are to be believed, he’s part of a trade for Josh Beckett, so the Red Sox won’t be dealing him to the M’s for Ichiro.

  40. DJ on November 21st, 2005 7:02 pm

    IMHO, regardless of whether anyone is in favor of trading Ichiro or whether the FO actually pulls the trigger on such a deal, it’s pointless conjecture unless there’s a deal on the table to be evaluated. I suspect that everyone has their price…even if that price is exorbitant.

  41. John in L.A. on November 21st, 2005 7:23 pm

    My problem with these trade urgings (Ichiro and Sexson) isn’t with the concept… as DJ just said, everybody has their price.

    My problem is his undervaluing of what that price is/should be.

    Are we really giving up so thouroughly that we should trade Sexson for “a midlevel prospect or two” just to get out of a contract we just signed and he lived up to?

    I mean, I’d trade Sexson for a good offer in a heartbeat, but let’s not be silly. A midlevel prospect or two? Sheesh.

  42. mln on November 21st, 2005 7:41 pm

    Ichiro’s comments about Hargrove have given an opportunity for all the Ichiro Haters to crawl out of the woodwork (not that Perry is necessarily an Ichiro Hater). Reminds me somewhat of the critics who said that Ichiro’s hit record last year was not that significant.

  43. Mat on November 21st, 2005 9:01 pm

    I don’t see any need to move Ichiro. His performance certainly isn’t the problem with this team, and payroll isn’t really a problem. If Ichiro was a free agent, he’d be neck and neck with, if not ahead of, Giles as the best outfielder on the market. Keep, keep, keep.

  44. Christopher Michael on November 21st, 2005 9:29 pm

    It doesn’t matter because our owner happens to love Ichiro. No matter how many people write articles about it he isn’t going anywhere.

  45. Watanabe on November 22nd, 2005 11:59 am

    Hello, allow me some digression from Mr. Perry’s article, as I would like to argue that Bavasi and Hardgrove are the ones who should be traded somewhere. I am Japanese, living in Kobe. As you all know, Ichiro was once a member of the Orix, a Japanese baseball team in Kobe. I have seen Ichiro for the past twelve years since he hit 210 hits in this team (No player hit this many hits in the long history of Japanese baseball.)He has been a superstar in Japan and presumably in the US, and he should be respected as such. He is well known here in Japan as a man of integrity and honesty, and as very serious and responsbile about what he does. In the Japanese new media Ichiro reportedly said something against Hardgrove and Bavasi. The report by the Japanese media, though often distorted to attract readers,may be mostly true as far as I can tell.Why is Ichiro frustrated? We need to face the facts! Since Bavasi came, only the first year was not bad with 96 wins, but not good enough. I have been greatly dissapointed with Mariners for the past three years: they are the worst in the team’s history. Who is responsible for all this? Nobody can deny that Bavasi and Hardgrove are responsible. I would thus rather claim that Bavasi should step down, so should Hardgrove. With these two people, Mariners would never be a winner: the past years are an ample proof for this claim.

  46. njenkin on November 22nd, 2005 5:22 pm

    FWIW, Perry is an avowed St. Louis Cardinal fan, and I believe a native of either Alabama or Mississippi.

  47. amused on November 23rd, 2005 12:52 pm

    You gotta admit — pertty funny stuff from the guy in Japan… worst three years in the team’s history? sure… if you eliminate the first couple of decades… and yes, all that team needs is for “Hardgrove” and bavasi to resign and things would be instantly better… what everyone has missed is that Hargrove obviously isn’t in love with Ichiro, either… or did you miss those end-of-season comments about how frustrating it can be that the guy won’t dive for balls and won’t turn up the power a notch or two

  48. Watanabe on November 23rd, 2005 8:14 pm

    Sorry for making mistakes in names: not Hardglove or Hardgrove, but I meant Hargrove, who I happen to think may be the wrong manager to lead the Seattle Mariners, though I am aware of his wonderful talent as a leader. Bavasi, once a famous GM in Oakland, is not doing well, getting so many (great but) right-handed batters in Safecofield when everybody knows that the team needded a couple of great starters for a long time. For this very reason I think Bavasi may be the wrong GM for the Seattle Mariners. I am very sorry for this digression from the main topic, but I thought I should add as somebody responded to my first message.

  49. John Brooks on November 26th, 2005 5:53 pm

    “He then repeats the old knocks on Ichiro about his lack of power relative to other corner outfielders.”

    This is the same old BS spitted out by the so-called educated press. They’re living in a fantasy-world where there in awe of power hitters, and their idiotic world in their awe of the power hitter. Not every corner outfielder has to be a power outfielder, Ichiro on the mention is more valuable to the Mariners offense when there on than any power hitter. In 2001 he was more valuable than any power hitter, when they contend he will be they’re most valuable hitter.

    Ichiro is able to get on, hit, steal, score runs, and mantfacture runs for other hitters. He’s in the upper class of defensive outfielders, and is one of the best outfielders according to the AL players, or he wouldn’t have been elected to the AL All Star Team this year.

    Dayn Perry goes on to say in the article: “However, since Ichiro has been vocal in his displeasure in recent days, the Mariners have the political cover needed to trade him”

    Since when Dayn have the Mariners came out and said they want to trade Ichiro? Since when has Ichiro ever said he wanted a trade Dayn? Man, what won’t the media do to advertise a story, come on FOX Sports, leave it to the NY Post to be the sport tabloids.

    Or read this Seattle Times article in which Ichiro addresses if he would ever consider a trade: “No”

    OK, let me tear this FOX Sports article apart some more now.

    Dayn goes on to say: “And trade him they should.”

    Huh, paging the real world, Dayn. Come in reality, Come in reality. Is there anybody in there? All the cyncism aside, Ichiro is Seattle’s most marketable player. Does, Dayn have any idea how much money the M’s lose if they didn’t have Ichiro as a player. It would have a astronomical effect on team sales. Second, I have already mentioned what I think about Ichiro as a player above and Ichiro is easily the M’s most valuable player too. He is more valuable than anything the M’s can get for him, definetly prospects.

    Next point to tear apart from Dayn’s article: “Ichiro’s also a player whose perceived value exceeds his actual value, and that’s precisely the kind of player who needs to be traded.”

    Hello again, Dayn? These are exactly the type of players you need to keep, ones that are marketable.

    Next point to tear apart: “Any team with a modicum of payroll flexibility and a vacancy at any of the three outfield spots would (wisely) have interest. Without probing deeply, the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Mets, Orioles, Phillies, Braves, Cubs, Dodgers and Giants all meet those criteria.”

    The Orioles please Dayn! I can’t keep my laughter back as a diehard O’s fan, you do know the current state of our sad organzation with our sad owner. Peter Angelos would never do anything that intellengent.

    Next point to tear apart, man is this fun. Reminds me of Joe Morgan when he criticized Ichiro’s single-season hit record and the NPB this year: “To indulge for a moment in the hypothetical, the M’s might pry Philip Hughes and Eric Duncan from the Yankees, Jon Papelbon and Dustin Pedroia from the Red Sox, Anthony Reyes and others from the Cardinals or any number of high-ceiling Dodgers talents.”

    Sorry, Dayn I think no GM on the planet is stupid enough to trade for Ichiro for Duncan, Papelbon, Hughes, Pedroia, Reyes, or any of the above.

    Duncan struggled this year. .235 Avg, 19 HR, 61 RBI, 59BB/136K, .408SLG, .734 OPS. Also he’s a third baseman, Dayn. To my best knowledge Beltre at third and Sexson’s at first. Also, the outfield looks pretty crowded with Ibanez and CF. So I wouldn’t Duncan with a 10 ft pole.

    “Another unfounded assumption in the column is that the M’s are years from contending, and need to add to their core of young talent by off-loading an existing superstar.”

    I agree, the M’s are only a superstar signing away from contending. They just need to sign a good free agent pitcher this offseason.

    #2-I don’t know about Dayn, but Rickey Henderson is sure one of the best hitters I would want in LF. Henderson was more than satisifactory, he was one of the best ever leadoff hitters ever to play Major League Baseball. A .820 OPS, 3,055 hits, 2,295 runs, 1,406 SB’s, and 2,190BB’s/1,694K’s.

    #5-A first baseman with Pete Rose’s 1981 numbers are a valuable player, even if it’s a .325 0HR’s, 33RBI line.

    #11-Welcome to the offseason. The NY Post, ESPN, and FOXSports will keep you busy with this all winter. It’s like listening to my hometown city sports writer Luara Vescey write, take the article and its contents a grain of salt.

    #16-Dayn Perry is based out of Austin,TX.

    He has a Baseball Prospectus chat on the 29th of this month(1:00 P.M. EST), maybe somebody can press him on this subject.

    #20- Bingo, we have a winner. Even in sports journalism we have to read between the lines for BS just like in news journalism.

    #21- Too many fans are on the Yankees bandwagon it’s unreal that’s why. You’ll be hard pressed to find a true Yankees fan in today’s era, one that is a true Yankees fan(one that is a fan), not one that jumped on the bandwagon. Many people are still living in the Late 90’s when the Yankees won their pennants and had their glory, but now are content to finish in 1st but not make the World Series, though their fans live in a dream world where they think that is still OK.

    At least you don’t live at Camden Yards, Yankees fans outnumber Oriole fans 50-1 at Oriole home games. Same thing at Tampa Bay games.

    #31- Please explain to me how trading Ichiro will help the Mariners? The M’s will lose in marketing big time and will be a worse team offense wise and defense wise big time.

    #34-Do you really realize who owns the M’s? Nintendo owns the M’s, do you think they’re are completely clueless are just plain stupid? Nintendo more than anyone understands what Ichiro has done marketing wise for the M’s and what Ichiro has done for the team as a player. Mr.Yamauchi(the former Nintendo President) was the one who suggested the M’s get Ichiro, and is still more active than what most people think in the M’s.

    Bavasi would be a clown to trade him for cheap talent, cheap talent will not win now. I don’t know why so many people want to trade for cheap talent to win tomorrow instead of now. Plus, how does trading Ichiro a proven star(marketing and player wise)help you win games?

    Next, I don’t understand all the praise for Matt Cain. Cain went 10-5 with a 4.39 ERA in 26 games with AAA Fresno this year.

    #35-You forget that Ichiro is still more valuable than anything the M’s can get back for him. This is because he is a valuable player on and off the field and he is a walking hero in Japan.

    #42-You mean Neyer and Morgan? Joe Morgan commented last year about Ichiro saying “While Ichiro Suzuki’s hit record is impressive, we should never push accomplishments from the past aside – because the season has more games today.” and “There should be two records, one for the 162-game season and one for the 154-game season. I believe that baseball ought to have two record books for all records, and both sets of records should be held in high esteem”. This is the biggest piece of garbage I heard. Why can’t Morgan accept a record when he sees one, instead of being a hypocrite? Same thing with Neyer “Ichiro no Sisler”.