Juan Pierre
Another item of note in the Morosi article that I think merits its own thread:
The Mariners have inquired about the availability of Marlins outfielder Juan Pierre and left-handed pitcher Ron Villone, a former Mariner. Pierre’s arrival would displace Jeremy Reed in center field and create a curious scenario at the top of the order. Pierre is regarded as a true leadoff man, and Ichiro Suzuki has a stated preference to bat first.
Boy, Ron Villone and Juan Pierre? Christmas came early this year! With extra coal!
Morosi hits on a few of the problems with this — Jeremy Reed is suddenly a man without a country, Ichiro becomes startled at the acquisition of Ichiro Lite — but let me drop one more. Pierre’s arm would conjure up images of Randy Winn’s halcyon days.
More to the point, Pierre doesn’t seem to fill any of the team’s stated needs. Why would the team give up something presumably of value for him when other matters are more pressing?
There are only two positives that could come from bringing Juan Pierre to town: first, he might feel inspired to drop another “Wiggly Feel” verse on us at some point; second, his middle name is “D’Vaughn,” so I would get to make all kinds of lame Dudley Boys jokes.
We know of the organization’s fondness for Villone, so at trying to bring him back was predictable. I have no idea why they would want to do acquire Pierre, unless doing so is the precursor to an additional move.
Comments
140 Responses to “Juan Pierre”
I’m going to just live in a complete delusional haze and think that Bavasi is simply toying with everyone with talks of Morris and Pierre just to set us up for some REAL aquisitions that will help us actually win games.
It is possible that Pierre’s inclusion in the M’s rumor mill is more at the behest of the Marlins. In other words, the M’s call about Villone, and the Marlins indicate that Pierre can also be had in the deal. The M’s disinterestedly say “eh, whatever,” and suddenly Pierre becomes linked to the M’s.
I sort of would expect Reed to be part of the package going the other way, since the Marlins would need somebody else to plug into the outfield to replace Pierre. Basically, they would be dumping Pierre’s fifth-year arbitration salary for somebody much cheaper, along the lines of their previous efforts to shed salary.
Yeah, I tend to agree with Todd. I’m not going to let me emotions run high until I see a news item with some substance.
However, I agree with Jeff that Pierre doesn’t fit in on this team, unless .354 SLG is considered a left-handed sock.
But, going forward, I’d rather have Reed. Even at equal salaries I don’t like the swap.
I hadn’t thought of Reed being included in the deal — Bavasi sees Reed as more of a left fielder, and I thought that shifting Reed over might be the aim here.
I’m opposed to going after Pierre in any case (unless, like I said, there’s another deal waiting in the wings). But if we have to give up Reed, then I’m really, really against it.
This is NO time to be giving up on Reed, who is going to have many fine seasons. Juan Pierre doesn’t do anything better right now except steal bases. Big freakin’ deal.
Be wary of a player whose batting average dropped 50 points during his age-27 year. The last thing the M’s need is to replace a player who isn’t a problem with a .326 OBP at the top of the order.
How on earth can the pursuit of high-priced mediocrities like Pierre and Morris (if true) square with the Bill Bavasi who won a USSM near-endorsement after last summer’s feed? Loving baseball, it appears, isn’t the same thing as actually knowing enough about it to guide the fortunes of a major-league organization.
Of course there’s always the possiblility of them acquiring Pierre to move him somewhere. Maybe to the Yanks for Pavano…?
Well, the Mariners are pretty fond of Pierre too. They drafted him twice!
Crazy talk! This is nothing but crazy talk! Reed is a Gold Glover whose bat will come around and he’s still cheap. He’s not getting traded nor moving that to black hole to his right down the third base line where Mariners go to get traded. (And Pierre creates more problems than he solves at a position in the field and lineup where we actually are okay.) I agree that we probably inquired about Villone (Well, what other options do we have?)and Florida wanted us to take Pierre as well.
The only way i see this Pierre deal benefitting the M’s is if they trade and pick up their crush Villone and Pierre. Then turn around and send Pierre and some type of package of Thorton/Meche/Franklin to the Yankees for their other crush Pavano.
The problem with that would be: What are the M’s going to give up for the Villone/Pierre package? I think its too early to send Reed, and a team in a “rebuilding” phase isn’t wise to sell prospects.
I have my doubts. Just more rumors running crazy. But it never hurts to try and connect a few dots.
Depending on what we would have to give up I wouldn’t be against getting Pierre. if Ichior insists on Leadoff than bat pierre 2nd and you can ignite the offense with 2 leadoff hitters. I wouldn’t give up a ton but they may just be interested in getting rid of the salary. Maybe (totally making this up) we trade for pierre and then send Reed to the Yanks in a package for Pavano.
#11
Trading Reed to Florida would seem to preclude sending Pierre packing right away.
But I agree – the only way this could be good is if the Marlins just want to dump Pierre for some cracker-jacks, and then we can spin him to a team needing a CF.
Thank goodness no one’s said it yet…
“GET THE TABLE!!!”
Juan Pierre gives you nothing Jamal Strong can’t give you except a bigger salary.
You don’t ignite much with a .326 OBP. Pierre just doesn’t have any skills we need.
Swapping him to the Yankees makes sense, though. Except Cashman has been saying recently that he won’t trade Pavano.
NY Post is reporting that the Yankees are talking to the Marlins about Pierre for Henn and Proctor. Perhaps the M’s are thinking that if they can get Pierre w/o giving up Reed, then they’ve got a smorgasboard of CFs for the Yankees to pick from (+ Meche) in exchange for Pavano
Let’s face it, Pierre is just Ichiro with not as good defensive skills. Quick, left handed slap hitters who do little in the game of power. Pierre gets on base even less than of Ichiro.
I figured we need more power, but again, if Florida will take a deal of like Strong and Choo and a lesser reliever for Pierre and Villone, why the hell not?
Could be merely just a salary cutting measure by Florida, but I have to imagine they’re in it to get some top talent in return.
I like Pierre. I like SBs and triples, and I like the idea of lots and lots of hit & runs at the top of the order.
As many on this board have pointed out, Bavasi needs to win this year, and betting his job on Pierre’s proven (though not spectacular) abilities as opposed to Reed’s potential (and still not spectacular) abilities has some basis in reason. That and the trade options this presents make this interesting news to me.
Pierre is just Ichiro with not as good anything.
#14: Testify.
That is true… have Pierre hit lead off, Ichiro would be the mother of all mothers as a hit-and-run mother.
If the NY Post is correct, we aint trading for Pierre as Henn and Proctor are better than what we have/will offer.
20- Pierre is a helluva lot better base thief than Ichi.
1 Pierre
2 YuBet
3 Ichi
4 Sexson
5 Mystery LH Slugger
6 Beltre
7 Ibanez
8 Johjima
9 Lopez
That lineup would score tons of runs…
Let’s face it, Pierre is just Ichiro with not as good defensive skills. Quick, left handed slap hitters who do little in the game of power. Pierre gets on base even less than of Ichiro.
Not quite:
Ichiro’s OPS by season:
127-125-110-135-109 (lifetime 121)
Pierre’s OPS by season:
55-89-65-98-107-84 (lifetime 87)
Ichiro’s lifetime SLG is .442. Pierre’s lifetime SLG is .375.
Post 25 should be OPS+.
24 — “helluva lot better”? Last year Pierre was 51/17 in SB/CS, Ichiro 33/8 for a net of 9 bags. Career-wise, the difference is even smaller. If Ichiro ran more, he steal more. Pierre’s basestealing doesn’t mean much in the face of Ichi’s 64 bag edge in total bases.
dirk, that’s a silly lineup. You have your 2 worst OBP guys at the top of the lineup. This lineup would score more runs:
Ichiro
Johjima
Mystery LH slugger
Sexson
Beltre
Ibanez
Lopez
YuBet
Pierre
Basestealing  especially in an Ichiro-vs.-Pierre context  is overrated.
Ichiro has a better steal ratio.
Ichiro gets on base more.
Ichiro has more power.
Ichiro has a vastly superior throwing arm.
Ralph your silly…and probably right.
Don’t compare Pierre’s bases to Ichiro’s, compare them to Reed’s. Bases are bases and Pierre gets more of them (60 more last yr, not to mention 50% more runs). Also, he hits lefties far better then Reed, who can’t him them at all. He’s a proven top of the order guy (Ichiro would be a great 2 or 3 hitter) and Reed is not (as evidenced by his demotion fairly early last season). JP and Ichiro would be a blast to watch in the same lineup.
Of course the more worthwhile comparison isn’t Ichiro vs. Pierre (which is just silly), it’s Reed vs. Pierre. I think Reed is likely to get better than his numbers last year (whereas Pierre is more likely to have reached his peak), and even with a subpar rookie season he already has a better lifetime OPS+ than Pierre (89 vs. 87).
If the Yankees want Pierre they can have him. I’d rather have Reed and use the money for pitching.
I dont think Ichiro would be a particulary good #2 hitter. Arent those guys supposed to work the pitcher?
Excuse me, Pierre had more bases than Reed last year?? Only because Pierre had more plate appearances. Their OBP and SLG were almost identical and Reed was in the tougher park.
I’d rather have a guy with potential to get better than a guy who’s proven himself to be mediocre.
Re #35:
Provided you had a leadoff hitter with a good OBP, Ichiro would be a great #2 hitter, because he gets on base via hits. Having a runner on first would open up a big whole between first and second, and his batting average would probably go up, as well as provide the chance for runners on first and third for the heart of the order. And even if he gets out, he wouldn’t hit into too many double plays with his speed. I’ve always thought of Ichiro as the ideal #2 hitter.
I just saw a report that the Angels are shopping Darin Erstad. Is it possible they would trade him within the division? I have LOVED this guy ever since he was drafted, and NOT just because I was standing with him in his kitchen on draft day when the Angels called telling him they were taking him with the first pick. He gets banged up a lot, sure, but he’s lefthanded, can play any outfield position, and is exactly the kind of gritty, do-anything-to-win type of player we need more of.
Juan’s teammate Luis Castillo is off to the Twins for minor-league pitchers Travis Bowyer and Scott Tyler….
D’Vaughn sucks.
Not the right fit for this team.
#32: Remember, if you’re going to compare Pierre’s numbers with Reed’s, you have to compare salary numbers too. Pierre ($3.75 million salary in 2005) will make about 12 times what Reed does in 2006. Pierre isn’t 12 times better than Reed, and not even two times better.
Pass.
#36 – my thoughts exactly. I don’t think teams place a premium on this kind of skill these days (i.e., base stealing, hit & run, putting pressure on the pitcher, etc). Therefore the cost of acquiring these skills may be undervalued somewhat. We’d all love a high OBP guy that hits the ball hard from the left side, but those guys are few and far between. This is a way to creatively and cost-effectively improve the team in non-fad fashion – the original “Moneyball” concept.
Plus Pierre hit 300+ and slugged 400+ in Marlins WS run and was a real catalyst for that team (much like Ichiro was in 01 for the Ms).
Erstad? Grit? Yeah, that’s the problem with this team, no grit (at least since Spiezio was put out to pasture).
Erstad’s EQA last five years:
2001 .243
2002 .247
2003 .233
2004 .263
2005 .247
Oh, yeah, he makes $8.5 million in 2006. Is it too late to call the Rockies back about Larry Bigbie?
#40 – it ain’t my money and the M’s will need to spend a little more than they have recently to compete. Re: the salary-to-value ratio, I don’t think we’d mind paying Millwood 30x what we pay Felix even though we know he’s not 30x better.
What a dream!
We could get Pierre, Matt Morris and the left-handed sock of Larry Bigbie!
This all in the same day where I read an article praising Bavasi for signing Darrin Erstad (but his glove makes up for the fact that he is an absolute void in the lineup) makes me wonder.
I really feel like the signing of any of these players constitutes as a demonstrated inability to operatre within the confines of logic.
Fortunately, the story about Castillo-to-Minnesota does not mention the Mariners in its list of teams interested in Pierre.
Pierre? Erstad?
Gag, that is exactly the wrong direction. When I hear those names I think Aurilla and Spezio. No Thanks.
If the team had Reed in left, Pierre in center, Ichiro in right it would look like a dead ball era club.
Pierre, doesn’t fit any of our needs, and acquiring him would be pointless. Villone on the other hand would be a valuable addition to the pen, but the rumors on MLB.com have the Mariners being one of three teams vying for Hector Carrasco’s services. If this is true, and we land the veteran reliever, who is history in the pen? I could see Putz or Sherrill being packaged in a trade for a LF.
Any ideas?
Gordon, Phils, 3/$18. Farnsworth, Yanks, 3/$17. Maybe the market will settle down once the cash is all blown on relief pitchers.
If Jacques Jones costs too much in terms of money and years and the trade market does not pan out, a leftfield platoon of Larry Bigbie (277/339/419 career v. RHP) and somebody like Dustan Mohr (a Coors-inflated 274/349/558 last year v LHP) or Dave favorite Marcus Thames (259/332/471 career v. LHP) could provide moderate offensive production and good defense at a minimal cost in terms of both acquisition price (Torrealba) and salary (at most $1.5-$2 million collectively) with no long term commitment. The money saved can go toward the rotation, and if a better leftfielder comes along later in the year (a trade acquisition or a healthy Doyle), they are cheap enough to keep as bench players.
Totally minor and off-topic, but this is a Juan Pierre thread: Am I the only one who can’t stand the “Player X in Pinstripes?” headlines when the Yankees are interested in a certain player whose team already wears pinstripes? Juan Pierre, for example. Marlins wear them. But then again, I’m an idiot who notices these things.
Hey, I know this will break some hearts…. But, Kida is returning to Japan and won’t be in the Mariner’s plans for 2006.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sb20051202j1.htm
phew!
I usually don’t like wild trade speculation, or at least not in forums like this set up for more reasoned analysis, but:
I like dreaming of acquiring Pierre as a salary dump, then sending something along the lines of Pierr plus Meche or Nageotte, plus Asdrubal Cabrera or (gasp!) YuBet to Boston for Manny and cash. They get a CF to replace Damon (with amazingly an even weaker arm) and fill the farm-system hole left by Hanley Ramirez, we get Sock. Or a similar deal for Clement.
Oh good god. Pierre instead of Reed? Erstad instead of… well, anyone?
Pass. Loudly and emphatically pass.
The idea that we would give up talent and pay more to acquire a player like Pierre makes me cry on the inside.
That said… I’ll argue the point, but I think it’s way premature to question or criticize the front office. We have no reason at all to believe any of these rumors are true.
53 – I was thinking the same thing but was picturing Pierre ending up in Cinci and everyone knows the rest. Just didn’t want to be the first to bring it up.
#53 . . . Reed may not have a cannon, but I’m pretty sure he throws better than Damon. When Damon throws, it looks like his arm should be in a cast!
#56 – Pierre’s arm, not Reed’s
#55 – I hope you don’t mean Griffey. Though I guess if could get him for ~free I’d be interested.
#53 – Brilliant post. Simply smashing.
Juan Pierre?
Unless he’s immediately on a plane to somewhere else as part of a package that gets us real value, no thanks.
He doesn’t give us anything that the team doesn’t already have talent-wise, and either he or Ichiro! would end up being unhappy at not batting leadoff. And I don’t want an unhappy Ichiro!, ever.
In that scenario why not just send Reed to Boston? Or are you assuming we can get Pierre without giving up Reed? If that is your idea then yeah, a Manny/Reed/Ichiro OF works…
But I think Boston is going to want a lot more for Manny.
Darin Erstad? Where did anybody get the idea he was any kind of asset?
He’s going to be 32 early next season, and in his third year removed from center field. He was a damned good defensive player in center in his day, but does anybody think he could trot back out there and be his peak self?
Offensively, he’s strictly filler. His batting average (.273 last year) represents most of his offensive value. He doesn’t draw many walks, he doesn’t hit for extra bases and doesn’t steal bases much anymore. He’s become the sort of guy you hide in a lineup among true boppers, rather than build around. The Angels will be paying him nearly $9 million in 2006 to do … well … what, exactly?
I can’t imagine why anybody would want to acquire Darin Erstad right now.
I’ve been a Mariners fan since 1977, and I am a peace-loving individual who used to post at the P-I forum until it got overrun by doofii.
Maybe Erstad has some Northwest ties that we don’t know about – like his wife’s cousin’s pet dog is a ‘Seattle native’ or something. Thus the interest.
OK, I’m a doofii. Now I see how this works! Duhrrr!
What I wanted to say was, Ron Villone!?
Maybe the Mariners think that “third time is the charm”, and that if they bring Villone back for a third go-round he will become the great pitcher they thought they were drafting so long ago.
Seriously, he didn’t do too badly for us last year before we traded him… I think we could do worse than Villone. Thornton, maybe? Still, I would rather see George Sherrill be given a chance as the top bullpen lefty, and not see his opportunities limited by the addition of a quite-possibly-less-talented veteran such as Villone.
Scratch my last remark. I didn’t read the origin of the Erstad comments (ie, there is no link between the M’s and Erstad). My bad.
#48
Carrasco to the Angels, 2/6.1 + incentives for starting
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-angels-carrasco&prov=ap&type=lgns
(sorry, don’t know how to link)
I think Carrasco got the better end of that deal. I can’t imagine not having AAA players who can’t give you Hector’s numbers for a whole lot less do re mi.
Wow, 67 comments lickety-split in the middle of winter.
Some games late this season didn’t attract that sort of response.
Presumbaly, Villone would cost at least $2 million. Don’t we have cheaper and equally effective options? I don’t know that 2006 Ron Villone would be a great deal better than Matt Thornton.
Colm:
I’m far more impressed that we’ve made it to post 69 in a discussion about a center fielder, and He Who Shall Not Be Named has only been very cryptically brought up once.
maybe the idea is to get him, and to send RV away in July yet once more… a new Summer Tradition…
msb is kidding a bit in #70, I’m sure, but he’s got a really good point: It’s never bad to bring talent into the organization. A lot of folks are screaming, “Re-build! Re-build! Get young guys!” That’s a good idea for this team, for sure. However, you can’t fill every position with young guys, and you have to put someone at all nine positions on the field.
As DMZ and Dave have noted many times, this team isn’t all that bad, and is liable to be around .500 next year. Bringing in short-term, high-risk talent to help get to that goal is a good thing for three reasons:
(1) You might get lucky and win big.
(2) Any time your team is winning, you’re helping your box office and keeping the fan base happy. 80 win seasons beat the hell out of 65 win seasons in that respect. Even modest increases in victories help keep AIS.
(3) This one’s what msb is alluding to: If things don’t work out, you can trade some of the high-risk guys that pan out in mid-season, and make a killing at it.
Bringing in talent is never a bad idea. That’s why Dave’s right about taking fliers on guys like Kevin Brown.
66: Yes, the angels have someone in AAA who could do what Carrasco will do next year: Corey Lee. An utterly silly deal. If 36 year old right-handed middle-relievers now get $6m/2 years, half the posters on this thread might might qualify for a million or so.
Also, I’ve never shook the image I had of Juan Pierre as Doug Glanville South. Glanville’s 1997-2000 looks fairly similar to Pierre’s 01-05, too.
Yeah, Juan Pierre’s middle name is D’Vaughn, but that can’t top Glanville’s middle name: Metunwa.
I would rather sign D’Vaughn Metunwa than Juan Pierre.
Hector Carrasco? A two year, $6.1M deal? That’s crazy talk. The M’s should sign Greg Hibbard to a five-year, $40M deal because clearly the market is expanding rapidly, and they’ll be able to move him for something even more valuable.
71. That’s an excellent point, Robbbbbb, that gets overlooked.
Lopez > 2005 Boone
Felix > Sele
Betancourt > Valdez
Johjima > 2005 catching nightmare
2006 bench (Morse, maybe Dobbs, Bloomquist) > 2005 bench (Spiezio, Hansen, Dobbs)
Bloomquist off the bench and not starting > Bloomquist starting everyday
And should we sign a decent starting pitcher:
whoever it is > Meche or Franklin
Assuming Reed or Beltre show no improvement, this is already a far better team than we had on Opening Day 2005.
Why am I such a human lapse today? The point I was agreeing with:
As DMZ and Dave have stated, this team isn’t all that bad and is liable to be around .500 next year.
I didn’t notice earlier, but in the same article announcing the Carrasco signing is a note about the LAAoA signing Tim Salmon. Minor League contract, and he was alright the last 2 seasons before last year’s injury, but still, it makes it a funny/strange article. Big day for the Angels.
“Bring out your dead!”
“He Who Shall Not Be Named”?
Umm, Mike Cameron just got dealt to the Pads.
I guess the years of overratting Ichiro (i’m sorry, Ichiro!) has poisoned the minds of too many.
Pierre!
Pierre comes up in Jayson Stark’s run-down of the potentail winter meeting trade market:
“The Marlins have 10 teams chasing the lovable Pierre. But they might sit back awhile and let the offers flood in (and, with any luck, position Pierre as a lower-budget alternative to Johnny Damon, assuming Damon signs before Groundhog’s Day)”
heh. from Rotoworld: “A friend of Ponson’s told FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal that the right-hander has stopped drinking, lost weight and grown his hair out. We were skeptical, but if he’s really grown his hair out, a four- or five-year deal would seem to be appropriate.”
#559, Bring on the Griffey Kudzu!
Is a Beltre/Reed for Manny deal totally out of the question? I would think Boston would be interested since they had some interest in Beltre last year (but they never traded Manny to free up the cash), Mueller is presumably gone and Reed gives them CF insurance if Damon leaves or even a new left fielder to replace Manny.
The Mariners ought to like it because Beltre’s salary will help offset Manny’s and Manny will give them the middle of the order sock that Beltre didn’t provide last year. They could then go ahead and sign a third baseman like Bill Mueller or even Nomar on a 1 year deal and fill CF with Pierre.
And maybe you could even include a guy like Meche to help offset more salary or get the Red Sox to chip in for part of Manny’s contract.
Yes yes, we already had a huge raging discussion on acquiring Manny.
So your trade is basically Beltre for Manny…let’s compare the two:
Age: Beltre is 25 and Manny is 33
Salary: Beltre $11.4 last year and Manny $19.8
Hitting: Manny gets the obvious nod here, but Beltre CAN’T be as bad as last year
Fielding: Beltre is a possible Gold Glover and Manny, well let’s just say he’s lucky he plays in Fenway 81 times a year
Bottom line: there is no way Manny is worth the headache or the almost $20 million he is owed next year, so get used to seeing Beltre at the hot corner. Plus what we need is a LH power bat to put compliment Beltre not an aging RH outfielder to devour salary
A trade for Juan Pierre makes no sense whatsoever, unless
the Mariners play to trade him to someone else. They already
have a guy in CF in Reed who is much better defensively, younger, cheaper, and probably will hit better than Pierre in the future.
Of course, if the Marlins also include Dontrelle Willis as a thrown in, I take it all back.
This will be my last post on Manny (sorry DMZ) since I don’t want to rehash old discussions but I think it’s ridiculous to worry about what side of the plate he hits on. There are certain players that fall into that category. Obviously we need some left handed power since that’s what fits best with Safeco, but Manny from the right side will outproduce pretty much every guy the M’s could dream of getting from the left side. As far as Manny aging, I’ll take an aging hitter as long as he’s 33 and has averaged .300/40/125 over the last 3 years.
And cripes, in this market $20 mil doesn’t even seem all that bad. We’d basically be paying $8 mil more for a guy that’s going to hit 15-20 more hrs and hit for a better average. And in this market with Rafael Furcal potentially signing for $13 mil per with the Dodgers, that $8 mil extra doesn’t seem like a whole lot. Sure Manny is kinda crazy and says/does some off the wall stuff, but as long as you know what you’re getting and understand how goofy he is, I doubt he’d be much of a problem. He never was much of a problem in Cleveland with Hargrove, so who knows maybe he will revert to his old ways.
This seems pretty plausible for our front office to be considering, although I do disagree with it. That is, if they are considering dealing Ichiro or giving up on Reed.
With Ichiro gone, Pierre gets center (and bats 1st). Reed moves to left and Ibanez takes his respectable arm to right.
Or, Reed could be replaced in center with the team selling Ichiro on batting 2nd (convince him he can rack up more hits with Pierre putting pressure on the infielders).
Either way, it easy to imagine a speedy, enthusiastic scrapper like Pierre becoming a fan favorite (a la Mike Cameron). He’s not Cameron in terms of actual production of course, but I can see both Bavasi and the business side signing off on such a move.
BTW, are you guys, by any chance, going to start a WBC thread especially since the issue of Felix playing is currently a hot debate.
And I vote no for Juan Pierre.
#55….interesting but I think having Dunn play centerfield in Safeco would be a disaster
#83
Boston has significant money tied up in Mike Lowell, who came over in the Beckett deal (18 mill over the next 2 seasons).
I don’t understand the overwhelming urge to give up on Jeremy Reed. Last year was his FIRST year up. Is it really such a good idea to cast him off? Everyone wanted an overnight sensation (including me) but how often does that really come around? I think trying to trade him for any reason at this point is giving up on a reasonably good long term investment. Bad idea.
There’s similar sentiment to ditch Lopez as well that I’ve seen- that I also don’t get.
I’m going to introduce you to a Mystery Player:
Year 1, cup of coffee: .994 OPS
Year 2, another cup of coffee: .758 OPS
Year 3: first full year on a MLB roster: .619 OPS
I imagine a lot of people would have wanted to find someone else to play other than our mystery player, based on his major league performance, but the thing is the minor league performance counts too when evaluating future performance players, and it’s annoying that 25 years after Bill James we still have to have these arguments. There’s simply no reason to give up on rookies based JUST on a bad year in the majors.
As for Pierre- I don’t get it, unless it’s some kind of 3-way with Florida and the Yankees where Pavano comes back to us (which would actually make sense, though I don’t value Pavano anywhere near as much as Bill Bavasi does). Why exactly do we need to stock up on speedy and underpowered lefty outfielders? Pierre doesn’t do anything that Reed or Ichiro don’t do already, and as for people who think Pierre > Reed:
Pierre, 2005: .276/.326/.354 3.89 Runs Created/27
Reed, 2005: .254/.322/.352 3.80 Runs Created/27
Granted, Pierre did a better job stealing bases, but there really isn’t a dramatic difference in their offensive production in 2005. So why assume Pierre’s going to be the better player next year, when Reed’s the younger player?
#84 Sure the Sox have lost Mueller, but they acquired Mike Lowell (.236, 8 HRs, 58 RBI in ’05, 2 years and $18 million left on his deal) in the Josh Beckett deal. It’s unlikely they’ll be able to dump Lowell on anyone so it’d be hard to believe they’d want Beltre…
Lopez is the next Edgar? *cough, cough*
And don’t forget Reed’s catches! I think my heart’s exploding–those catches!!
95 – Lowell also was a monster in 03 and parts of 04, they say Fenway fits his swing pretty well. Plus, he’s a total get’r'done kinda player, just like half of the Red Sox roster. I think he’s a pretty big fit, he’s in a more potent offense now so he doesn’t feel that he has to carry that much of a load. I expect a respectable year from Lowell.
Is it possible that the M’s get Pierre to replace Ichiro in the leadoff spot, and then deal Ichiro to the Crankees for Pavano + ?
I think Lowell is in a serious decline phase that will be masked only partially by playing in Fenway. I think the Red Sox in general are headed for a rough ’06.
On a slow news day, this is exciting news (from Morosi’s article on the WBC):
“Snelling underwent surgery on his left knee in September and had targeted a midsummer return, but is ahead of schedule.”
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/250678_mari03.html
Bavasi thinks Reed is better suited for LF. So it is possible that acquiring Pierre allows us to keep Reed. Pierre is a leadoff hitter and does not fit any other role in a line up particularly well. Which leaves us with what to do about Ichiro? I have watched him launch balls over the left field wall in batting practice before every game. When Boone talked about the pop in his bat he was not exaggerating. The Mariners have tired moving him to 3rd in the lineup before, maybe Bavasi envisions him as our mysterious left handed stock. Plus those three would create the fastest outfield in baseball.
In other Mariners news, here’s some minor league transactions reported Nov. 25 by Baseball America:
Signed RHPs Richard Dorman, Jeff Heaverlo and Jonathan Wright. Released Cs Luis Soto and Kent Dixon and OF Tim Auty. Released LHP Adam Brandt and SS Brandon Green.
More OT (another thread to come???):
Also, Baseball America has a good Rule 5 draft preview up today. Writer Chris Kline doesn’t see any great sleeper picks from the Mariners organization. One name I know and like is Jeff Ridgway, a 24-year-old lefty from the Devil Rays organization. I’ve interviewed him a number of times because he comes from Port Angeles, and seen him play some. The injury history is scary, but he’s one of those guys who always does well when he can pitch even though he’s never played about high-A ball. Here’s what Kline says about him:
Jeff Ridgway, lhp, Devil Rays
Ridgway drew attention during the second half of the season when he went 2-2, 2.79 in 29 innings through July and August. That success carried over to instructional league, where Ridgway topped out at 94 mph several times. He shows better command pitching at 89-92, and also features a hard, slurvy breaking ball and a solid changeup. Ridgway has some medical baggage, however, being two years removed from elbow and shoulder injuries.
Is it possible we get Ron Villone and Juan Pierre in exchange for those 2 guys we got last season in a trade(That Bazardo and Flannery guys)? If so, I think we go ahead and pull the trigger convince Ichiro to hit 3rd heres what our lineup could look like…
1. Juan Pierre- CF
2. Kenji Johjima- C
3. Ichiro- RF
4. Sexson- 1B
5. Belre- 3B
6. Ibanez- DH
7. Lopez- 2B
8. Reed- LF
9. Betancourt- SS
That I think would be an EXCITING lineup to watch… 1-3 you got 3 potential guys that can hit over .300… Pierre has went over .300 in 3 of the last 5 seasons… Hes a guy thats going to get you 20-25 doubles and 5-10 triples a season… Honestly that lineup excites me that prevents us from overpaying a “power” lefty in the offseason… That saves us more money to pick up starting pitching… I would love watching that lineup… I say we grab Pierre just don’t give up Reed for him
Again, be VERY wary of Pierre. What does it say that a player who entered what should have been the peak season of his career this year dropped 50 points in batting average?
And the guy just doesn’t get on base enough to help. So we have a player who’s markedly deficient in the two primary areas of offensive performance  he doesn’t get on base enough, and his slugging percentages show that he doesn’t advance baserunners enough.
What good is he, exactly?
#105- The Marlins would have absolutley no reason to give us those guys for minor league chaff.
We HAVE to get over the idea that other teams would love to trade for players we don’t want. Not even as a “package.”
Just so JT. However, M’s fans can be forgiven for this delusion, since the Mariners have so frequently given a home to players that other organizations couldn’t wait to expel.
Every organization goes offseason Dumpster-diving. That’s what spring-training NRI signings are all about. Despite the Mariners’ affection for making I’ll-trade-my-fallen-out-of-favor-player-for-yours deals with the Padres and Rockies, there is no trade market that would return real value for Ryan Franklin, Gil Meche, Mike Morse or Matt Thornton. At best, one of those players would be a throw-in if we suddenly decided to deal Sexson and Pineiro for Manny Ramirez, or something apocalyptic and unlikely like that.
Speaking of marginal-value players, word from sources in our newsroom is that Willie Bloomquist  when it comes time to be tendered a contract offer  wants a guarantee that he’ll get a fair shot at competing for the starting second baseman job in ’06. Failing that, he’d request a Torrealba-esque get-me-the-hell-to-someplace-where-I-can-get-a-fresh-start trade with the Diamondbacks. (Willie went to college in Arizona and lives there.) We’ve also heard that he’s expecting an offer between $800,000 and $1 million, though my sourcing on that is not as solid as I would like.
I’d rather watch an Ichiro/Reed/(Choo, Bohn, Strong, Snelling, Balantein or Nelson): who all have more power than Pierre (aside from Strong), come cheaper (aside from Ichiro) and without having to give up a player to put them in the lineup. I’d rather watch strong fail at trying to be better than Pierre than the rotation fail because the money went to an average OFer (who I beleive to be overpriced)
Save any additions to salary for SP if you can’t get the LH power that seems unavailable if we want to keep Felix, Ichiro, Beltre, Sexson, Guardado, Betancourt and Kenji (M’s japanese players may be referred to by thier first names). Matter of fact, I’d rather see a proven SP come back in a trade of any of these players, as the incoming player is likely to raise the salary…Well there are a few LH power hitters who I’d feel differently about, but I don’t see them coming here without Ichiro, Felix or Sexson+ leaving.
So no thanks to the left fielder acquisition except for Bigbie(platoon with youngster) or J. Jones (decent contract that could see M’s 1 & 2 hitters combine for 30-40 HR)
PIERRE, BAZARDO, ET AL (# 105) – I’d think twice before pulling that trigger. Ample evidence has been presented here–very weak arm, decline in skills, no upside–that PIERRE is not an upgrade over REED.
Besides, the Mariners may have scored a coup when they got BAZARDO. He has made normal progress–a classification promotion each year–through the minors, and has put up some decent numbers. {An ERA of 3.41 and a K/BB ratio of 2.69.) I see him joining the rotation in 2007–at a much cheaper price than picking up a FA pitcher.
I searched this page for the word “calf,” but could not find it. It’s misleading to refer to Pierre’s 2005 as a decline year, because he suffered from a calf injury early in the year and it seemed to linger on and affect his wheels-oriented game. If he’s healthy, there’s no reason he should put up such poor numbers.
ah me. wandering OT, from Rotoworld: “Miguel Olivo went 0-for-4 and committed his sixth and seventh errors of the DWL season yesterday.
Padres GM Kevin Towers says he’d be comfortable entering next season with a tandem of Olivo and David Ross behind the plate, but the trade rumors suggest that really isn’t the case. Olivo is doing nothing to inspire more confidence by hitting .169/.242/.271 in 59 AB this winter.”
Well, he’s got the other Miggy (Ojeda) back. Maybe Bruce Bochy can be the team’s designated light-hitting backup catcher, as he used to be. Or Doug Gwosdz could be exhumed.
115: I’m not sure about that. Conflicting information there. Last I heard Ojeda was safely protected on Colorado’s 40 Man Roster, and a visit to the Rockies official site shows him still on their 40 Man.
Ah, never mind. I was thinking of Jorge Campillo, who was signed by the Padres.
Hi all….hey, if the choice is between Pierre in center/Reed in left or no new body and simply plugging in the failed experiments from Tacoma back into left, well im all for Pierre depending upon the cost of his acquisition. However, Ichiro in the 3 hole doesnt appeal to me and the suggestion of KJ as the #2 hitter seems very unlikely as well.
Given the need for a corner outfielder, why hasnt anyone wondered about the other guy in the Marlins outfield-Juan Encarnacion? Personally, I’d prefer to dream big and suggest getting M Cabrera, moving Ichiro to center and Reed to left. While Im dreaming, maybe we could convince the Marlins to throw in D. Willis? That would really allow the Marlin’s front office to stick it to their fans.
Anyway, while it seems like a fire sale is going in in Florida, they are actually loading up for bear in perhaps two years when they’re playing in Portland. They havent just dumped salary, theyve picked up some real dandy young talent. You have to wonder what the M’s could offer. I’d submit that given the M’s really dont have enough chips to get the Marlin’s batboy, this whole thread likely is more an interesting mental exercise than a possibility.
#112: the point isnt that Pierre is an upgrade over Reed. Rather the point of Pierre is that he would be an upgrade over currently having no one in left. The M’s dont view Ibanez as their everyday left fielder-they didnt play him there last season until finally they didnt have a choice. Pierre in center and Reed in left is by far an upgrade over what the M’s have written in pencil right now.
Whether Pierre is worth what it takes to get him and what his impact on the line up would be, well those are all more relevent discussion points. He’s an upgrade that probably is a compromise but if defense is undervalued, his acquisition would improve the defense.
Im looking forward to next week. This should be a GREAT week to scour the rumors and see what Bavasi has cooking up his sleeve. This is Bavasi’s time to shine. Im rooting for him hard…
117: But you’re not wrong, either. the BA transaction article says:
Signed RHPs Manny Ayala, Jorge Campillo, Steve Spragg and Michael Thompson and C Miguel Ojeda. Signed LHP Brian Martin.
So who knows.
Here’s an idea for a left-handed bat off the bench: Gig Harbor resident Scott “Pickin’ Machine” Hatteberg. Kept to 150 ABs or so, he fills the Dave Hansen role, only capably  he walks, he hits .260, has modest slugging abilities, swaps hunting tips with Sexson and Bloomquist in the clubhouse.
Granted, he can’t play defense, but he could probably be had for $1 million or less.
The Market continues to run amok.
Furcal to Dodgers, 3 years 40 million.
An elite shortshop’s age 28, 29, and 30 seasons for 10.33 per is not amok by any reasonable standard, especially from a team as loaded as the Dodgers. I can live with it.
Hey, why are we worried about Pierre? He’ll be just like previous huge busts for my fantasy team like Cristian Guzman and recover with huge numbers.
Oh…wait…
Oh, and I do have to state for the record I had Guzman in 2002 and have avoided him like the plague ever since.
Wanna try that math again? 13.3 mil / year. Miggy Tejada made only $11 mil last year.
Yes, and Tejada is now considered a bargain….somehing the M’s should consider when refusing to offer that extra year as a plum…..
Math is hard. Mea culpa. *^_^*
I’m prepared to stand by the general point, though. Tejada’s contract is not as recent, Baltimore has less money than LA, and baseball is obviously healthy and thriving. Revenues are up and, frankly, I see it as a good sign that those revenues are being directed towards the players teams feel will help them win. Winning being the point, of course. Nobody goes to Dodger Stadium saying, ‘Wow, this is Frank McCourt’s team? Wow.’ If Bud Selig were hit by a falling satelite tomorrow (Goddess grant that it be so), another bland but faintly sulfurous apparachik would replace him and 98% of baseball fandom would never know. It’s good to see the people that give baseball its value being rewarded for being the game’s irreplaceable commodities.
Also, Tejada two years ago was not the player he obviously is now. Between him overperforming his previous established level of performance for the last two years and baseball’s growth-exceeding-inflation, yes, his contract looks like a boon for Baltimore. Furcal isn’t the hitter Tejada is, but he’s well above average, and Tejada isn’t half the defender that Furcal is. LA is paying a bit of a premium, but is getting in return Furcal’s peak years with little risk of being on the hook for any serious decline. For a team with deep pockets, that’s a canny move. If there’s a surprise here, it’s not in the $/year, but that Furcal didn’t get a 4th or even 5th year out of somebody. Frankly, the only concern for LA is blocking Joel Guzman, but, then again, Guzman will only be 23 when this deal expires.
Here’s an interesting snippet form the Star Ledger discussing the Yanks search for a centerfielder:
***Florida’s Juan Pierre is likely to be traded, since the Marlins are cutting costs and Pierre is eligible for arbitration and due for a raise to more than $5 million. The Seattle Mariners recently dangled Jeremy Reed in talks about Carl Pavano, but the Yankees passed.****
They need a centerfielder and relief help…any trade for Pavano (the only guy Seattle seems to be asking about) would be painful to the bullpen as well. Besides the Yanks are greedy bastards and think Ichiro for Pavano is more reasonable.
I guess I cant see the Yanks having a position of strength on this one…..sure Pavano is an arm and everyone needs those BUT, Pavano doesnt want to be there, has a huge contract still remaining, is coming off a horrible injury-riddled season that has made his ONLY solid year in the bigs seem like it happened 5 years ago and Boston is winning the PR game this offseason AND the Yanks desparately need a centerfielder.
Shouldnt Steinbrenner ride across the field, apologize for 200 years of tyranny brought down upon our people and then put his head between his legs and kiss his own arse?????
FFFFFRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here’s another snipet from the PalmBeachPost:
**** If Florida cannot trade Pierre, the organization is prepared to let him become a free agent. To replace Pierre, the Marlins are interested in Joey Gathright, a speedy center fielder for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. The Rays need young pitching.******
So if no trade, theywont offer Pierre arbitration aqnd he’ll be able to walk….. it doesnt sound like the Marlins have a position of strength either.
LA filled a need on the field with the best available and they need to sell tickets, also helped by a big splash signing….
Besides its just cool when you get new toys. I cant wait to play with jojima
Nobody predicted Furcal would get 13 mill back in October but I think everyone predicted that Kansas City had no chance of signing him,,, those poor Royal fans will have another lousy Christmas.
Here’s an off topic that I think would make a great thread…
Did the M’s overpay for Jojima?
With Lo Duca expected to go to the Mets very soon, there might be an all-star caliber catcher without a readily apparent home… Molina and Hernandez booth will likely sign for less than expected and definately not for the four years everyone was predicting.
Months ago, I suggested signing a catcher since that would be the easiest blackhole to fill in ths market-and was treated as a heretic.. Being exonerated is almost as fun as playing with new toys.
For the record, I still like the jojima signing.
#128
It seems that Furcal did have longer offers, but at the pittance of 9 and 10 per year (Cubs – 5/50; Braves 4/36)
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/041sd3.htm
Realistic Trade Proposal:
The Seattle Mariners trade starting pitcher Joel Piñeiro and relief pitcher Eddie Guardado to the Baltimore Orioles for either starting pitcher Hayden Penn or starting pitcher Adam Loewen.
In any event, the above trade proposal would allow for the Mariners to rid of approximately $13 million in salary and obtain a top-tier pitching prospect, while it would allow for the Orioles to adequately replace the long since released Sidney Ponson and the recently departed B.J. Ryan.
Re: Furcal… with all the above mentioned shifts I guess Hee-Sop Choi isn’t the answer at 1B.
And Terry, give the circumstances it doesn’t appear we overpaid. Even if every team has an incumbent catcher, Molina and Hernandez are top-shelf catchers and teams out there seeking an extra edge to contend will be willing to big serious coin (several million more than we paid) to get them even if they’ve got an everyday catcher. Remember, the M’s were all but ready to go into 2006 with Torrealba catching everyday before Johjima expressed interest in playing here.
They could resign for serious money. I think the aforementioned Dodgers, given the option, could want an upgrade over Jason Phillips. And the Rockies could choose to sign one of them rather than trade for a catcher as they originally planned. They have options. And they will get at least 8-9 mil a year over 4 years or so.
We got lucky that Johjima fell into our laps for as little as we signed him for.
and FWIW,
the sunday update– Byrd to the Indians (2/$14.25M with 3rd year option) and LoDuca traded to the Mets, which makes it now Lo Duca, Beckett, Lowell, Delgado and Castillo gone from the Marlins
New twist:
Marlins could be seeking Torrealba after dealing Lo Duca today.
How about Torrealba to the Marlins for Willis and Cabrera?
Seriously, I think that could be the opning for a Torrealba for Villone deal.
I could see him being spun or Villone, definitely.
I still think the team has more pressing needs than relief pitching. We locked our closer down, we still have Sherrill as a reliable lefty and a Thornton as a scrap lefty (shudder).
So, does Byrd going to the Indians mean they aren’t resigning Millwood? If so, that works for me- I have a higher opinion of Byrd than some others do here, but I’d take a more expensive/more years Millwood in a heartbeat (as long as the money/years numbers don’t get TOO silly- 3 with an optional 4th is about as far as I’d go).