Meetings end, dealing not done
A lot’s in yesterday’s “Thursday’s Moves-a-go-go” comments. Some big notes:
- Manny Ramirez didn’t get moved. He wasn’t even the subject of much discussion.
- Zito and Abreu didn’t get traded either.
- Miguel Tejeda wanting out of Baltimore sets up some interesting possibilities (but not the M’s).
- Millwood’s hanging out
- There are a huge number of free agents still available
Mariners officials left here Thursday afternoon without Kevin Millwood or Matt Morris, without Carl Everett or Jacque Jones, and without dividends from a proposed three-deal domino that could have remade the roster.
Baseball’s winter meetings closed Thursday, but the work is just beginning for the Seattle Mariners and general manager Bill Bavasi.
In looming horrible signing news, Carl Everett’s in the PI
While multiple sources insist Seattle is nearing a deal with Everett — negotiations with the free-agent outfielder are likely to converge on a one-year deal worth about $4 million, with a possible mutual option for 2007
Larry Stone in the Times says that it’s down to Everett’s “soul-searching” (that’s not a joke) over whether he wants to play here.
Hey! Carl!
It’s horrible here. We’re all heathen gay paleontologists. Millions of us. Stay away.
Stone also, finally, raises the child abuse issue (and gives it a full, fact-y paragraph). He does, however, say that charges were dropped which is not true — [edit: my opinion on this is dealt with at length here]
Sigh.
John McGrath in the TNT is the other writer to mention Carl Everett’s child abuse past as part of a little bit where he goes through some of Everett’s history and tries to make it funny.
I don’t understand why, given Everett’s long rap sheet of fights with teammates, umpires, coaches, acting the goat on the field, and making some strange comments about evolution and some bigoted comments about gay people that it’s the comments that have gotten almost all the play so far. Why did it take this long, with Everett all but signed according to these guys, before they print this stuff?
Are the writers afraid if they bring up the really explosive charges and Everett’s long history of fighting that if Everett signs they’ll have a hard time dealing with him? Is the team twisting their arm to make a move more palatable? What makes a nutty belief about dinosaurs more important than the long list of teams that have tossed him out because he wore them out? All the teammates who are divided between “Carl’s an affectionate and funny guy” and “If I ever have to play with him again I’m going to throw myself off the team charter when we’re over the heartland and find some semi-pro team to play with”?
Comments
96 Responses to “Meetings end, dealing not done”
Re: Carl Everett. I’m a little confused as to why his unpleasant behavior is relevant. For years haven’t we (well, some of us anyway) been calling for the FO to stop signing only Boy Scouts and start signing talent regardless of the history? I’m not saying that Everett is the best talent out there, and I don’t much like his personality, but I’m puzzled at the criticism coming from USSM being based on the “non-Boy Scout” factor rather than on performance. Unless I’m missing something. Maybe you’re not criticizing the signing, but just the press’s treatment of the “bad boy” factor.
Larry Stone in today’s Times talks about Everett as well, noting that he and his wife lost custody of his daughter after abuse allegations.
I think signing guys with less that squeaky clean images is one thing. Signing a 35 year old mediocre ballplayer with a history like Everett’s is something else. We can’t be that desperate.
#1 I think it’s his temperment coupled with his declining production that leads to the criticism. Also, with the roster’s current makeup we’ll probably be fighting hard for 2nd or 3rd again (a little premature to judge i know) and someone of Everett’s caliber doesn’t really add much to the production of the team while significantly affecting any potential clubhouse chemistry.
Not all of the news coming from former teams is bad, either. In the Larry Stone article, Ken Williams (White Sox GM) actually had some decent things to say about him:
What was the big three way trade that would have changed the roster???
He also will hit .250 for you and force Ibanez into LF……. I’m not dead-set against Everett, it’s just that i think there are better options available without breaking the bank.
Sometimes attitude and clubhouse behavior do affect the onfield performance of the player and his team-mates. T.O. anyone?
“I’m puzzled at the criticism coming from USSM being based on the “non-Boy Scout†factor rather than on performance.”
Why would you would be puzzled that I’d oppose the signing of someone like Everett based on his on/off-field history of incidents? And to characterize this is being an issue of “non-Boy Scout factor”? Because he’s a anti-gay bigot who fights teammates, coaches, reporters, fans, bumps umpires, and has lost custody of kids due to child abuse? I’ve been in favor of signing guys who are like David Ortiz, who are disdained because they’re not scrappy, energetic hustlers but may take their work just as seriously and be quiet about it.
As to why this is all relevant, there’s a lot in a previous thread on this.
If I was trying to sell you my car, would I talk up it’s good points or emphasize it’s negative points?
I know Kenny Williams isn’t trying to sell the Mariners a 2000 Nissan Xterra. But I doubt that he would go on teh record and bash Carl Everett, either. Mr. Williams isn’t keeping Everett though, is he?
Jimmie
2001 Mariners = Great team with Great characters
2004 Mariners = Bad team with Great characters
2006 Mariners = Bad teams with Bad characters?
Everett makes NO sense at all. if the Front office doesn’t have to money to pick up a good starter AND a good bat, don’t compromise and get a below average bat and a below average arm. It’s like going to the grocery store and going to the day old bread rack. You saved $1 but you got home and that loaf of bread was moldy!
If they truly don’t want to pay Jones/Burnitz/Huff/Nixon or who ever the big money to come out here, at least let a young guy try and prove his worth. Shoot, let Willie go out there in Left. He’ll give you decent defense and at least league average offense, which when all is said and done is better than DHing Everett and fielding Ibanez.
What do people think about the price? 4 mil for one year does not seem outlandish, nor would it hinder the M’s ability to make future deals that would invovle multiple years. I agree with most that the Everett signing is not a good move, but it is not a disaster like Cirillo or Spiezio, both of whom remained dead weight around the neck of the franchise for quite some time. I am still hoping for Jones in LF.
I’d really like to see the organization drop this Everett B.S. and go full throttle after Tejada. They should have got him two years ago, and with 4 years remaining on a 6/72 contract his price is reasonable for what he brings. I realize we’d probably have to give up alot (no doubt Betancourt would be included), but I think it would be worth it.
I’ve long advocated moving away from the “he’s a nice local guy” school of roster management. But the team is better off getting cocky jerks who think they’re the greatest players in the world who still manage to stay out of trouble (Boone at his peak, Payton if we want to extend to another sport) than bad human beings who abuse their kids and are hated (Everett). Being a bit of a jerk is not the end of the world, it’s probably inevitable given the way these people are brought along and how they’re rewarded, but there’s a difference between being a baseball jerk and being a bad human being (and yes, abusing your kids automatically makes you a bad human being). At the end of the day, this will be a guy wearing your city and your team’s name on his jersey.
A couple of interesting bit……I find it odd that Stone is the only writer that is really pushing the Everett thing as being close to done….seems he’s been doing it all week. The others seem to be saying the M’s are discussing Everett and talking to his agent but nothing eminently pending..
Another side note of the mysterious Renteria for Marte trade…..I read an article last night that quotes Atlanta management as saying they are aware that Marte has a partial tear in his UCL…..while Boston management says they reviewed his medical charts and think he’s OK. Will be interesting to see what comes of that and if Marte ends up missing a season soon due to needing TJ surgery.
Anyone else read the details of that three-deal domino that would have remade the roster? Didn’t it end up with Zito to the M’s for a Reed + package??? and a comment that Beane remains “fond” of Reed? Interesting tidbit……
“and without dividends from a proposed three-deal domino that could have remade the roster.”
What trade is this refering to?????
Not to point out the obvious but I think the comments get more play in Everett’s case because they sound more sensational. Fighting is bad, but not funny. Not believing in dinosaurs, that’s funny.
Everett is a piece of work. He has no place in MLB, let alone on my favorite team. The very thought of a POS like him getting millions of dollars is distasteful, insulting and frankly speaks towards the demeaner of any team that comtemplates signing him.
Fine, pick some guys who are not Ole or Edgar nice. However let’s all remember that the FO had major heartburn over Freddy’s predilection for drinks after the ballgames and he was just a young, single man enjoying his success. Everett is in a whole different league of bad behavior which borders on sociopathic.
(and yes, abusing your kids automatically makes you a bad human being)
We have a winner. This is simply true without possibility of coming up with any excuse to minimize the behavior or impact. Abusing any person is shitty, abusing any child is calling for a baseball bat to the side of the head crappy!
#13: I don’t know how’d they swing it but I agree. I’d say Yuni is expendable for Tejada.
fwiw, I wrote to both Stone & Brock yesterday, expressing my unhappiness with both the idea of signing him and the fact that no local writers were even mentioning the child welfare/custody issuem let alone asking the Mariners to discuss them, in light of the ‘Refuse to abuse’ campaign they spearheaded….
Regarding the three-deal domino – read the PI link for more details, but essentially:
1. Trade for piece(s), then
2. Flip piece(s) (and more?) for Pierre, enabling
3. Reed/Thornton (and more?) for Zito.
No hint of what the pieces would have been.
Their plan was to trade for Pierre and then ship Reed and a pitcher to the A’s for Barry Zito. They needed the Pierre trade to go through for the dominos to start falling, but when the Cubs got him everything dried up.
I have no idea what the third trade was though…
Everett makes perfect sense.
The magic trade for a lefty outfielder just isnt going to materialize.
With Everett:
You’ll get 20 hrs and 70 rbis for a one year investment at a relatively low cost. Most of Everett’s really bad bahavior is more history than recent.
You wont have to pay Jones 25 million over three years which will free up money to hopefully sign both Morris and Millwood (or at least Millwood). Its increasingly improbable that the M’s can dramatically upgrade the rotation AND get Jones. Truthfully it might take the rest of the M’s payroll cushion just to *kinda* upgrade the rotation.
You wont have to rely on failed experiments from Tacoma platooning in left nor will you have to insert Bohn into center thereby reverting back to the punchless outfield of the Winn days (Bohn is simply the offensive equivalent of Winn on a bad day). I personally cant take another year of listening to people complain about how boring all those great plays are when nobody is hitting a homerun. Minus Raul, the M’s got nothing from left field or the DH offensively during the second half last year. The improved offense in left with Raul and the improved production at DH with Everett makes up for the hit in the defense in left. Besides if you all remember last September saw Morse being groomed for left. Given that option, Ibanez looks like a gold glover.
As I see it, the alternative to signing Everett basically means a return to last year with perhaps a better left fielder if the M’s are lucky enough to sign Jones. You have to remember Jones signing with the M’s is NOT a given. Several teams have made 3 year offers to Jones with the best being in the range of 24 million. Its likely to get a little higher if the M’s get serious. I dont think the M’s are prepared for that kind of committment to Jones.
Am I a strong supporter of Everett? NO. Is Everett washed up? NO. Is Bavasi being interested in Everett given the M’s situation resonable? Yes.
Are the likely alternatives to Everett attractive? NO NO NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO.
#21– and if Benny Looper is to be believed, they were actually heading out the door to sign paperwork when the 1st deal fell through…
Wow, I disagree with almost every statement and piece of reasoning
Is Everett washed up? NO.
Putting something in caps doesn’t make it true.
Are the likely alternatives to Everett attractive? NO NO NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO.
You have not given them due consideration then.
Also, six no-caps != true either.
These are rumors, and as we all know, for every rumor that turns into something there are ten that turn into nothing. That being said, if the mariners sign everett to 1 year 4 million dollar deal, I’m going to be left wondering why we couldn’t have added a reggie sanders/rondell white kind of guy for that contract? Personally I’d rather spend that money on two solid bench bats that might be able to platoon with morse in left field. Everett is a bad decision any way you look at it.
The M’s really can’t afford Everett (say 1 year at $4), Morris (say 2 years at $6), AND Millwood (say 4 years at $11). That pushes payroll a lot closer to $95+ than $90-. If they were great signings with some potential the FO may be willing go slightly over their budget, but these signings are only a one year stop gap (Except Millwood). Why would anyone go over budget for a one year stop gap.
Correction: Everett is washed up. 20 HR and 70 RBI with a poor average, no walks, and not many doubles amounts to not much — an OPS below .750 each of the last two seasons — and that despite playing most of that period in the hitters’ haven of US Cellular Field. Put him in Safeco next year, I doubt he’s significantly better than Wee Willie Bloomquist.
and from the ‘say what?’ file, out of the Washington Post today:
“The Orioles came close to acquiring Minnesota Twins reliever J.C. Romero, according to one team source, but those talks have stalled and it’s believed the left-hander will likely land with the Seattle Mariners.”
[hey you know you can link that instead of just pasting a huge-ass URL there]
Guess the Post has more than one reader…
23 hrs and 87 rbis doesnt qualify as washed up. The M’s would have never traded Winn last season if he had identical numbers to Everett. Those numbers arent terribly different from Raul’s though Ibanez is clearly a better all around hitter.
I’ve given the alternatives due consideration, we just disagree.
Which alternatives are better for the next season?
I don’t know why, but all this Everett talk makes Snelling’s injuries hurt me as bad as it must hurt him…..
WAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
jojo: park effects. They’re real. Everett was a below-average hitter even without adjusting for US Cellular, which gave him a boost in performance. Put him in Safeco, and it will be ugly. He doesn’t bring anything positive to the team on offense or defense, and to top it off, he’s a grade-A schmuck. I really hope Bavasi has more sense than this.
Is the Everett talk just a ploy to get someone like to Jones sign a more reasonable contract? In other words if you are leaning towards signing here but want to squeeze more years/money out of us we have other options we are looking at so hurry it up.
And I agree with Jeff in Fremont, if Tejada is available I go hard after him.
Oh, and just to add to the incredibly long list of compelling reasons why we shouldn’t go near Carl Everett…
Post-All Star Break, 2005:
.228/.305/.386 (.691 OPS)
Say hello to the outfield, switch-hitting equivalent of Bret Boone (before park adjustments make Everett look even WORSE than Boone).
I’d be very disappointed if we added Carl Everett. He adds nothing significant to the team talent-wise in exchange for dealing with his utterly wacky beliefs and poor personal conduct.
I, myself, haven’t always liked the M’s approach of overvaluing character in their players; but you don’t go out and sign a player who isn’t even GOOD ENOUGH to justify dealing with his character issues just to say “see, we can sign jerks too!”
Considering what the Red Sox got for Renteria, I can’t think of anything less than Felix that the O’s would want from the M’s.
I wouldn’t mind it much if Everett were on non-roster invitee for possible bench depth. But I can’t stomach the thought that the M’s would try to proclaim that Everett is a key addition to one of MLB’s most woeful offenses. That will sell season tickets?
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but is there any reason to target Everett in favor of Reggie Sanders?
Those numbers aren’t terribly different from Raul’s though Ibanez is clearly a better all-around hitter.
So don’t look exclusively at HRs and RBIs. Even without park-adjustments, Everett’s .746 OPS barely topped Winn’s .733 with Seattle.
Signing Everett is at best treading water at LF and DH.
Everett’s OPS+ last year was 96, or something close. If 100 is league average, that is basically what he was. And Winn, over the entirety of the season, was a more productive player than Everett.
37: Tejada is still a Boras client, right? I think it could be orchestrated now that the O’s are going young. Obviously the M’s would have to give up some top-tier prospects (obviously not Felix), but I think it’s doable. The only question is if the M’s are willing to take on another $12 million/per contract.
Managing a trade would more than like mean we’d have to abandon all hopes of signing top-tier FA pitching, if such a thing really exists this year. Obviously he’d be a big sparkplug for the offense in the three or four hole, but we’d probably have to spend at least one more year developing young pitching before they could reasonably hope to contend.
Given that, I still say do it, if possible. Letting Tejada go to Baltimore still ranks in the top five greatest mistakes this franchise has ever made. If it can be somehow corrected, then do it.
I have been a M’s Fan my whole adult life. I have sat through everything from Bobby Ayala in the Kingdome to two crappy seasons in Safeco now. I love baseball. I even learned to root for Rickey Henderson. I don’t want a team full of boy scouts who are past their prime; but more than that, I don’t want to help pay the salary of a child-beating, fossil-record-disbelieving, gay-bashing, moon-landing-doubting, flat-earther, whose skill are very obviously in decline.
Does anyone else notice the irony of the two consecutive strings here on USSM?
Olerud, all-time good guy, retires.
Everett, all-time scum-bag loser, about to join M’s.
I have been an M’s fan since the start in ’77. The addition of Carl Everett would be enough to end it for me. At least until he and Bavasi are long, long gone.
I saw Tejada demanding a trade and that was my first thought as well. We missed out on him two years ago, let’s see if we can’t get him now.
Everett’s OPS+ last year was 96, or something close. If 100 is league average, that is basically what he was.
Except “league average” includes banjo-hitting SS’s and good defensive players. Carl Everett has NO defensive value as DH, and he wouldn’t be DH’ing if he was a good defensive player. Thus, he’s actually a below average hitter, since the proper comparison is LF and DH.
AL DH Performance, 2005:
http://tinyurl.com/76c5f
Everett’s OPS last year (.745) would have been 9th in the AL as a DH. His OBP (.311) was 13th.
I am going to emphasize this, because there’s actual evidence in this post to back this statement up: Carl Everett is not a good hitter. He isn’t a good defensive OF, either. He has an injury history, and is in his mid-30′s and well into his decline phase. On top of all these NON-”intangibles”, he has a long track record of being an asshat. There’s simply no compelling reason to spend $4 million on him.
Back to J.C. Romero to the M’s. What? I hadn’t heard anything about that until today. Also, if Carl Everett is our best option, we might as well pack it in for this year and rebuild again, because we are going nowhere. I happen to believe there are better options to be had in trade. I would play Adam Jones in left before I would consider Everett.
I know this may be a bit late but I am curious as to when Carl Everett actually said that he did not believe in dinosaurs.
The local beat writers are a dream come true for the M’s PR department. The team basically gets a free pass on every absurd Howard Lincoln comment, every claim of poverty (actually Finny writes those for them), and every negative player story (you’ll never see a critical steroids story about the M’s even though they lead the league and major league AND minor league suspensions).
Would any other big city paper would treat Everett’s background as a footnote? The local writers would rather write another feel-good story than actually make a critical analysis of the team. If Jurassic Carl signs here, you KNOW he won’t get asked any tough questions. You gotta love being a baseball owner in this town. Fans keep buying your crappy product, no one questions your fuzzy math P&L, and the media leaves you alone. A sports owner’s dream, to be sure.
Dinosaurs, again.
On Tejada: I wonder what it would take to get him. Obviously a lot, but I wonder whether a package of pitchers might do it – Pineiro, Meche, Mateo, and Thornton?
If they could turn a deal like that for him without giving up a major offensive piece, couldn’t a deal be made with Beltre, to the NL for Abreu? A double swap like that would make my year. We’d obviously have to find a way to fill 3B, and how to somehow reconcile Tejada vs. Betancourt.
But having that problem, while putting together a middle of the order of Tejada, Abreu, Sexson, Ibanez would be a pretty cool problem to have.
I just wonder what it might take to get Tejada, mostly because I’ve been mulling this Beltre for Abreu idea for quite a while.
Any thoughts?
Regarding:
[quote]
Are the writers afraid if they bring up the really explosive charges and Everett’s long history of fighting that if Everett signs they’ll have a hard time dealing with him?
[/quote]
It might very well be that they (the writers) are considering this signing their Christmas bonus. If I was a writer, I would be overjoyed at looking forward to a series of articles about Everett during the season that will basically write themselves! Easy money!
So, why jinx the signing now?
As far as Everett’s on field, I am in agreement with many others that he’s basically replacement level bone-pile stuff (think Ruben Sierra)
Baseball reference says the most similar player at age 34 is Ben Oglivie. Oglivie played until age 37, but his numbers were about what one would expect from Everett at age 35+ (although Ben had a better OBP than what I would expect from Everett, and possibly a lower SLG):
Oglivie
Age – BA – OBA – SLG
35 – .262 – .327 – .384
36 – .290 – .354 – .440
37 – .283 – .334 – .390
Oglivie had 34 homers at age 33, but he never again had more than 13.
And after age 34, he never had more than 12.
Although adding the nickname Jurassic Carl to a roster that lost joejessica would be huge–Jurassic Carl–Classic!
Carl Everett is a bad deal all around. He is a below average hitter (94 OPS+), a below average fielder in his time in left field. He is old, so therefore unlikely to improve. He is also a major jerk. I don’t mind if the Mariners go and sign somebody who has had a problem or two in the past. Look at Big Sexy. However, I do have a problem when the player has had trouble throughout his career.
What terrifies me is the discussion of this idea that swapping Reed for Barry Zito is going to improve the team. Reed still has upside. Zito is far from the ace he is often reputed to be.
>51 Yah, that would be sweet. But the GM has to have a severe mental disorder to do that deal.
Seriously. Considering the fact that Tejada is better than Renteria, a team wanting him would have to give up a boat load.
The M’s would have to give up either Ichiro, Sexson & Betancourt, Felix, or some other combination of like 4 of our top prospects.
No way the M’s get Tejada, all though it really would be sweet if we get him.
Oh, and from the TNT article:
A lack of surplus in the farm system cost the Mariners a chance to make deals to bring aboard the lefty hitter they covet.
Let’s see, who’d be responsible for that? Figuring it takes 2-4 years to crank out players, it’s be Pat Gillick (GM) and Frank Mattox (drafting/scouting).
And where are they now? One’s a GM, one runs the M’s entire farm system.
Major League Baseball: It’s the Peter Principle come to life!
#51: Well lets give him 4 of our top prospects. this is Miggy TEJEDA!!!!!
I will give them Betancourt, Reed, Soriano, Putz, Rick Griffin and peter angelos can have Diamond club tix any time he is in town.
150 rbi look good in mariner blue
I don’t know how on earth we can get Tejada without giving up someone talented, and that basically means Betancourt would be atleast a part of it, but wouldn’t it be nice if we could keep Betancourt and put one of them (Tejada) at second? It would never happen, but it sure would be nice.
RE: Trade for Tejada. Would a package of Guardado, YuBet & a pitcher not named Felix do it? Is that too much?
However, is there any indication that the Orioles are actually going to trade him? Just because Tejada wants to be traded doesn’t mean the O’s have to do it. Tejada doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy that’s going to turn into a clubhouse cancer if he doesn’t get his way. The O’s could trade him if they want to but certainly aren’t obligated to do so.
I should have added, considering other similar players to Everett at age 34, after Oglivie:
2. Bobby Higginson, whose last season was 10 games at age 34.
3. Sam Chapman, who had 6 HR at age 35 and then was done.
4. Leon Wagner, who had 1 HR at age 34 and 12 AB at age 35.
5. Reggie Sanders (how did he end up on this list?)
6. Larry Hisle, 31 AB at age 35
7. Dave Henderson, 5 HR at age 35 and then was done.
8. Andres Gallaraga (see Sanders)
9. Kirk Gibson, lost his age 35 year to injury, then played parts of 3 more seasons
and,
10. former Mariner Richie Zisk, who had 12 homeruns at age 34 and then was done.
This is overy simplistic, but looking at the ten most similar players to Everett at age 34, there are only two of them that did anything of any value after that season (Sanders and Gallaraga). So, two chances out of ten in getting any kind of return on the signing? That actually feels about right to me.
by “someone talented” I ment a LOT of someones who are talented.
#59– yup. He’s frustrated after the winter meetings. Melvin Mora said the same things about the need for the team to get better. Doesn’t mean the Os have any interest in moving him, or that Tejada will think the same thing as the weeks go on.
On Tejada: I wonder what it would take to get him. Obviously a lot, but I wonder whether a package of pitchers might do it – Pineiro, Meche, Mateo, and Thornton?
I’d say let’s think big: we could add Willie Bloomquist, Greg Dobbs and Ryan Franklin instead of Julio Mateo. The Orioles could certainly use crappy players, right?
While we’re at it, we should offer to trade Peter Angelos a couple of cases of PBR for a bottle of Veuve Cliquot.
If Tejada does get traded, it’ll be because the O’s aren’t winning (or “trying to win”) so I doubt if Seattle would be high on his list of places to go.
64 – Agreed, although I don’t know if he has any kind of no trade clause in his contract that would allow him to block a trade to any specific teams.
I can just imagine every MLB team’s blog/message board in the country is currently brewing up potential trades as we speak.
Tejada’s contract is somewhat backloaded — he’s owed $52 million (of the original $72 mil) for the next four years and Baltimore got perhaps the best two years of the deal, so I don’t know if they can expect to get quite the haul everyone expects.
Although the M’s are committed to YuBet it sure would be nice if they inquired about Tejada. After all, this is a guy who wanted to come to Seattle when he was a free agent. Hopefully he still feels that way…
A friend of mine who is an Orioles fan said the M’s should not have to include Felix in order to get Tejada, and that Tejada is unlikely to go to the Red Sox because Angelos doesn’t like trading within the division.
I’d be all for a Lopez/Nageotte/Other for Tejada swap, if we could swing it.
I’m going to laugh and laugh and laugh if all this Carl Everett stuff is just a dumb rumor. I think people have gotten far to worked up over this. We all get it. None of us would want to hang out with the guy….he doesn’t believe in dinosaurs…he’s probably a homophobe…This isn’t a debate over the type of people who you’d want to have over to your house to play board games. I venture to say than in the situation he was signed, and came through big even one time, Most people would forget all about the fact that he may be a lousy human being.
Thanks to those who have REALLY kept it about baseball and constructing a winning team.
66: Still only $13mil/per, so still a great deal.
I’d start with Betancourt/Lopez/Nageotte. If we got Miggy I’d have absolutely no problem with the pride of Port Orchard being our regular 2nd baseman.
/ducks
Ok…. So Tejada wants to leave the O’s… dont you guy’s think that if we signed him 2 years ago he would want to leave us now???? I want no part of him if this is his attitude… I personally think he is trying to become Boston’s new SS. He seemed to start talking right after they made the trade with Atlanta
Man, if it’s come down to Everett, at least get Burnitz. He won’t run over any teammates in an automobile.
#68. Perhaps. Perhaps due to all this forewarning and angst, the FO will take heed to not sign Everett.
If so, does all this hand wringing become something worthless or an effective tool in swaying opinion?
# 68– It’s funny thay you think our only concerns surrounding Everett have to do with personality. As many in this thread have shown, Crazy Carl is not only a bad human being, but also a bad baseball player. Nothing he can do in one at bat can change that fact. He is the Danny Fortson of baseball, any good he appears to do is only a mirage.
33: I know what everyone’s saying about park effects, but if you actually look at Everett’s home/away splits you might draw a different conclusion:
Home: 235 ab, 15 hr, 38 rbi, .217 ba
Away: 255 ab, 8 hr, 49 rbi, .282 ba
So you get a better hitter with less hrs with the road version of Carl Everett.
Over 3 years, you get basically the same numbers. Higher average, more rbis on the road, more hrs at home.
Just a thought.
Angels got LHP J.C. Romero from Twins for infielder Alexi Casilla. – Rotoworld
http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/home_mlb.asp?sport=MLB
What about the second of the two trades I suggested? If Tejada could somehow be worked out (I understand it’s not likely), what about Beltre for Abreu?
I wonder whether that might be a good idea even without any other moves… I guess having a bat at third base is a higher priority than the outfield, but could Abreu be a better fit than Beltre in our line-up?
I wonder if a trade like that is something the front office would consider. It would put some speed, average, and power to the #3 spot in the order.
#74….yep
Suggesting Everett will only hit 12 homers next year is pretty funny.
I never said Everett is a GREAT hitter. I still maintain, he is an adequate enough hitter to be considered a significant upgrade offensively for the M’s-especially on a one year basis.
No one has ever suggested Everett would play left field. His glove is not an argument agasint him. He obviously would be signed to DH. Sticking Raul in left isnt an argument against either-the M’s will willing to stick Morse there.
As to why Kenny Williams speaks highly of Everett yet let him go, well the ChiSox kinda have a fellow named Thome who will DH.
Also, if no Everett, then who? My main point was even though he has obvious deficiencies, Everett is still better than the alternatives. Ive basically framed the alternatives as, Jones for 3 years and 25 million likely meaning no major upgrade to the rotation, recycled failures from Tacoma, or taking a stretch and promoting the light hitting Bohn to center and moving Reed to left. Nobody has convincingly rebutted the if no Everett who angle. Id seriously like to know.
Before jumping on Jones, I dont think its very likely the M’s will sign him as it looks like signing him will take a bigger commitment than the M’s are willing to assume.
Obviously the M’s are giving Everett a look because of payroll issues.
Signing him cheap frres money for arms. Signing Jones likely means no chance for Millwood and maybe even no chance for the remaining scraps.
Really…I loved the idea of signing Tejada, before Sexson and Beltre were signed. Tejada puts up the numbers we expected from Beltre and all 3 of them are RH. Unless you’re flipping Beltre+ for Tejada (which seems counterproductive to me) and moving someone to third, it doesn’t make sense at all. I think of Sexson as untouchable, because he’s unreplaceable. Kind of like Adam Dunn would be…
His glove isn’t an argument against him?! Of course it is — it makes him less valuable than if he were a good fielder. You were comparing him to Randy Winn, which to be a worthwhile comp effectively assumes Everett to be a good fielder, which he isn’t. We’re looking at someone whose numbers are going to take a hit from coming to Safeco, whose road numbers last season, even if better than his home numbers, are poor for a DH — I’d have no problem with his bat if he had Cameron’s glove, but for a DH, that’s weak. We’d be better off with Morse; he might not hit as well (and then again, he might), but at least he wouldn’t cost us $4 mil.
If it’s Millwood and Everett, we’ll see. I’m opposed to the idea of Carl Everett, but it’s possible he could be helpful here. I don’t, however, think it’s likely. I think it’s more likely that Everett is a smokescreen for the M’s FO. Look at the left hand…
Sign Millwood first and foremost.
Big trade for Barry Zito: That sounded good. Zito has not put up the numbers expected of an ace most of his career, but for what he’s making it’d be worth having him. I would not approve of the M’s throwing money at him next year, unless the prices come down a bit and people realize he’s not likely to win a Cy Young for them. From what I know it looked like a good idea for this year though. Solid innings eater who’ll win more often than lose.
Forgot this: signing Everett cheap doesn’t “free money for arms”; that would be adding no LF at all. Signing Everett for $4 mil is effectively reducing the budget by that amount to no real benefit.
I still maintain, he is an adequate enough hitter to be considered a significant upgrade offensively for the M’s-especially on a one year basis.
What part of “He’s not an upgrade over Randy Winn” do you not understand?
His glove is not an argument agasint him.
It reduces his value, since he can’t be used defensively, so, yeah.. I’d have to say you’re wrong about that.
Nobody has convincingly rebutted the if no Everett who angle.
There are any number of alternate suggestions. Seriously?
Take the 4 million and keep it in the bank right now. Start out with a platoon of Choo and Morse, or use Bohn, or scavenge for a AAA player for cheap ala Bucky, or paw through som spring training NRIs.
See if those guys answer any of your needs over the first couple of months. If not, or if you want the bat anyway, and your team is in the race come June-July (remember: we won a lot of games in years with Rickey Henderson and Al Martin in LF), dangle prospects in front of some team OUT of the race for their highly paid and PRODUCTIVE LF who’s contract is about to be up come October, and use the $4 million to pay for him.
if you aren’t in the race come June-July, Carl Everett is useless anyway- because he’s not likely to be on the team by the time you’re going to be very good. He simply doesn’t add enough value to turn a bad team into a good team. He’s a below-average DH, barely above replacement level as a bat. The bottom line is Everett’s not any good, and quit trying to point to 23 HRs and 87 RBIs as proof of that.
#72
I hope that is true. I’ve always thought it would be good for FO types to keep an eye on this site. If they do or not, I have no clue.
#73
I never said that people weren’t talking about his performance. I was actually praising those who are keeping that aspect at the forefront. I don’t want that signing to happen anymore than anyone else…believe me.
We won games with poor fielding LFers when we had power in the outfield and especially when the Kingdome was the home park. The purpose of getting a LFer is to add power to the outfield, not ‘upgrade a little bit’. For that reason the only people worth discussing that have been are Dunn and Abreu. They’re both left handed and both can hit it out of ANY park. If you’re not talking about adding 30+Hr or spending
USSM (or others), is there a way to contact/email the Mariners FO to express our displeasure with Everett for his off-the-field issues. I know they won’t trust fans on player evaluation, but I hope they’d care what season ticket holders have to say about the character of players they bring in and that “we” don’t want to cheer for Carl Everett.
There’s an email link on the M’s site you can use.
Hey I can’t stand the guy. Just to be clear on that. And his performance isn’t all that hot. But if we had the opportunity to sign Ty Cobb today, knowing what we know about his bigotry and temperament, would anyone hesitate, or criticize the signing on the grounds of the guy being an abusive, violent bigot? Just wondering. Again, I’m not even remotely implying that Carl Everett has that kind of spectacular talent. What I’m wondering is this: is there a point at which the guy’s talent is so strong that his personal life and behavior must become irrelevant?
Doesn’t this signing (if it happens) seem eerily familiar to the Aurilla signing? They couldn’t get what they wanted so they sign someone who (based on way past performance) they think will do well although the proof says otherwise. I say if they sign him he’ll be gone by sometime in the middle of the season (ala Aurilla) then Dobbs will end up being the DH again. I say just give Choo and Bohn a chance (at least platooning) until you can get someone that will really help the team. Heck, if I knew they’d be willing to go for an aging fielder I would have pushed (in the blogs) for Kanemoto (Hanshin Tigers). His 2005 line: .327 Avg, 40 HRs, 125 RBI, 101 BB, 80 Ks (?), Bats left, plays leftfield, 36 yrs old. The tigers didn’t post him but the M’s could have asked if they were interested.
#82: Funny you didn’t mention a single viable alternative.
It’s been argued that since Everett would only post average numbers for a DH, he isn’t a viable alternative. But that ignores my main point-average numbers at DH would be a significant upgrade for the M’s (assuming Raul’s numbers moved to left field or another way to look at it is Raul’s numbers are an upgrade for left and Everett’s numbers then become an upgrade for the black hole created at DH). Having said that, Everett wasn’t exactly average- only 3 DH’s had more HRs than Everett last year (Ortiz, Haffner, Delucci) and only three had more rbis (Ortiz, Haffner, Ibanez). Everett did this on a team that was among the worst scoring teams in the league (only Minnesota and Seattle scored fewer runs). As for US cellular field being a hitter’s paradise, no one did a ton of hitting there last year. I’ve already conceded that Everett isn’t a great hitter-he’s an average when considering BA and OBP. He strikes out a lot but then again he had the same number of SO as Ibanez last season (though to be fair, Ibanez had more at bats).
I bristle at the suggestion of Morse as the everyday DH. Overall his numbers last season make him a below average DH relative to the league but worse than that, his production dramatically dropped each month suggesting his ending averages probably overestimate the value of his bat. For instance for the months of Aug/Sept/Oct, Morse’s OPS was barely over .500 and his slugging percentage was .255. Everett has been criticized for being one-dimensional since his glove precludes him from being an everyday position player. How exactly would Morse be an improvement there? He was awful at short and looked like a fish out of water in left. How would Burnitz be any different if signed? What other options are there? Besides that, Raul is basically one dimensional since a lot of bloggers here claim he’s not fit to field.
Everett has been criticized as being a paper tiger because he played home games at US Cellular field. Last year his road splits included .282 BA, .766 OPS, 8 hr and 49 rbis in 62 games suggesting he could do just fine away from Chicago. A 20 hr 70 rbi season is certainly reasonable to expect in Seattle. Since he switch hits (and is very comfortable from the left side), I don’t buy the argument that Safeco would kill him either. Even more intriguing were his numbers with runners on. Last year he batted .300 with runners in scoring position. His OPS with RISP was a respectable .846 and his OPS with RISP and 2 outs was a nice .992 with an OBP of .434. In case you need context, these aren’t as good as Sexson-a certifiable stud- but they are similar to Ibanez and much better than Seattle’s team average. Simply put, he is still a run producer in money situations. Paying Everett 4 million to put up these numbers at DH can be argued as pricey if you compare him to Hafner’s 380,00 a year or even Ortiz’s 5 million a year, but his salary would compare favorably to a guy like D. Young (8 mill) who put up similar numbers at DH but wasn’t nearly the clutch hitter. While Everett wouldn’t be a bargain, that doesn’t refute the point that Everett would represent an upgrade over who the M’s would use at DH otherwise or be forced to use in left if Ibanez had to DH.
After all, that’s all I’m really saying…its pretty clear why the M’s are considering him. Simply put the M’s got nothing out of DH/LF after the all star break minus Ibanez (i.e. when Raul DH’ed, left field was a black hole and when Raul played left, DH was a blackhole). I have yet to hear how the M’s get better production sans signing Everett or another guy. It’s difficult to see how the M’s get better in the rotation if they have to commit more money to someone else (especially the amount of money Jones is likely to get). From an offensive standpoint, Jones’ three year average isn’t as good as Everett was last year (and Everett had his least productive year given at least 125 games). Jones isn’t as good in the clutch either.
Maybe they take a chance that a guy like Durazo is healthy after his surgery? Even then, he made 4.7 mill this year-I doubt he’s looking for a pay cut or a one y
Cobb YES!!!
Everett…Kind of…
this has been said quite a few times already, but bears repeating: lefty vs. righty is way over-rated. If coveting “left-handed” sock leads to Carl Everett, the front office is focusing on the “left-handed” part way to much. its not just that he isn’t the best option out there, but that he’s one of the worste. i’d rather sign Reggie Sanders. i’d rather overpay for Jaque Jones (who’s not much better but is 5 years younger). i’d rather trade for Russ Branyan and settle on a platoon with Morse. i’d even rather pry Craig Wilson away from the Pirates to play left/dh…thats why we should just say no on Everett, cuz there’s options that can be had for as little that are much more preferable
It’s been argued that since Everett would only post average numbers for a DH, he isn’t a viable alternative
Can you read?
Everett’s OBP would be 13th out of 14 AL team DH performances (13 teams had better OBP from their DHs). That’s not average, that’s BAD. OBP is the single most important offensive stat. He sucks at it (.311 is about 15 points below league average, and below Seattle’s TEAM average of .317, which, by the way, was dead last in the AL). How freaking hard is this to understand?
Sure he had a bunch of RBIs. Bret Boone had 24 HRs and 83 RBIs in 2004, because he batted fourth for all of the year. He also had other numbers quite comparable to Everett (OPS and so on). Would you have thought we had solved our offensive problems if we had signed Bret Boone uring the 2004-2005 offseason?
#91: Im not sure YOU have read very carefully. You failed to explain how Everett isnt an upgrade. I get it you hate Everett. Thats not enought though….just propose a scenario where the M’s get better production and value than signing Everett. Ill happily shut up.
I never said he solved the M’s offensive problems. Ive said that while clearly a compromise, Everett for one year is a better solution than the current alternatives (basically platooning Tacoma rejects) or impairing the M’s ability to significantly upgrade the rotation by committing 25 million to Jones who is even worse than Everett offensively. While defense is undervalued, the argument that Jones is a good signing at multiple years for 7 mill per because of his leather simply isnt strong.
I think Raul in left and Everett at DH for one year with potentially adding two arms (lets just say Morris and Washburn) is more value than a large commitment to Jones and adding one arm (likely one of the lessers).
The left field/DH problem simply cant be solved in house by the M’s. That means bringing soneone in from outside. Right now the options on the table via the rumor mill are Jones, Everett, Burnitz. Trade efforts have failed. Who knows, maybe they can work magic via a trade but there is no indication they can.
Once again, you hate Everett, I get it. But please explain how Everett isnt an upgrade. Offer a solution from the roster or Tacoma. Morse is a dead end-he’s not a legitamte glove in left and he isnt a legimate DH (ive already touched upon Morse’s numbers for July, Aug and Sept of last year but because you love OPB, his for those months make Everett look great). Choo obvisouly isnt ready. Strong isnt the answer either-he keeps getting older and by the way, slower. Finally keep in mind the parameters set by Bavasi’s priorities…the solution you offer has to at least add *sock*. Once again you keep saying Everett isnt an option but you never bother offering a solution. Given the alternatives, Im simply arguing Everatt is an option. Thats the freaking issue and you havent bothered to address it.
I already suggested stuff upthread. 4 million at the deadline buys you 2 months of a 12 million dollar player’s salary, for instance- and using replacement level players for 4 months + good player for two months is better than Everett, who is barely above replacement level as a DH.
You keep saying “X isn’t an option”. Just because you say it does not make it true. Just for one example, it is far from obvious that Choo isn’t ready, consdering his stats aren’t far off from Reed’s last year in AAA, his stats at all levels are better in composite than a fair number of major league 4th OF’ers/bench players, and Reed’s platoon splits would have made him considerably better with a platoon partner. The other thing is you could easily evaluate a NUMBER of options- everything from AAA players to NRIs to spring training deals. Just because you give Choo a shot in the spring doesn’t mean he’s the only possibility you can evaluate. Let’s say Choo has a 20% chance of being a decent fill-in as a platoon player, and 80% he’ll suck. If I add a few more options to that, I can easily get to a point where I have a better than 50-50 shot of having an answer for LF- and keep in mind with Everett’s injury history that he’s not 100% guaranteed to last for an entire year of medicrity.
It’s not so much hating Everett as I’ve seen this BS before with signings like Ruben Sierra and Rich Aurilia, or trades like Brian – we bring in some guy who’s in his mid-30′s decline phase to patch a hole because we are desperate, and the best case is we have very mediocre performance that does not actually provide much of an answer, that we could have fixed for less money or in a better way (Sierra)- at worst, we still have a hole because the player’s decline continues (Aurilia). This is the myth of the “proven veteran”- when in reality, all said veteran has proven is they are a mediocre to bad player hanging around for another year’s paychecks. DMZ had a good post explaining some of this- Carl Everett is, talent-wise, between category B and C, though he’s likely going to be PAID as if he’s solidly in category C because everyone is focusing on those shiny HR/RBI numbers like you are, and ignoring the hideous OBP.
The thing is, we don’t get the 4 million for Everett back if Bobby Abreu or Adam Dunn shows up on the market for reasonably cheap in July. We don’t get to use it for the difference between Matt Morris’s salary this year and Kevin Millwood’s. We basically end up wasting it on a 35 year old player with low defensive value, who’s had ONE season where he’s been close to good at the plate this millennium (in Arlington and US Cellular Field, the best hitter’s parks in the AL), and everywhere/everywhen else has been barely above replacement level. Oh, and we get a defensive DOWNGRADE in LF as an extra special bonus, while we’re at it.
And on top of it, the guy’s a classless jerk. Sorry, I still don’t see the upside. I’m perfectly comfortable with him not being on my team and taking chances on minor-league dumpster diving instead.
Why hasn’t Roger Clemens name come up as a possible acquisition? The Astros apparently decided not to offer him arbitration.
It has. Read the comments, it comes up every day.