Thursday fallout and now, forward
The Times offers the best take I think. Stone’s article has possibly the best paragraph:
Everett’s past has been riddled with controversy (see accompanying time line), and initial fan response toward his acquisition seems to be leaning heavily toward the negative. But the Mariners firmly believe Everett’s fiery attitude is just the jolt this team needs after two straight 90-loss seasons.
Folks, if a player requires an accompanying time line, that’s bad. The timeline, by the way, repeats again that the child abuse charges were dropped, which is an inadequate summary of what happened [edited 12/16 to clarify and add the link].
Stone also drops this bombshell (which, I’m sure, those of you hoping this is a 1-year stopgap at most will enjoy):
Everett signed a one-year, $3.4 million contract Wednesday with a club option for 2007 that includes a $600,000 buyout. But industry sources say the deal vests for 2007 with a very makeable threshold that kicks in the second season.
I’m not so sure that’ll happen. If he’s hitting, he’ll stick and vest. If he doesn’t, they’ll trade or move him as early as possible. And, as you’ve seen before, I don’t see it.
The PI’s coverage is just bad. The article on the transaction includes no mention of Everett’s issues and includes such infobits as
Everett hit 23 homers and drove in 87 runs while averaging .251 for the White Sox last season. He helped the Sox win their first World Series title since the days of the infamous Black Sox, but Chicago decided against picking up his option for 2006, freeing him to sign elsewhere.
“Helped”. Uh huh. His inspirational out-making caused the team to try even harder to make up for his poor hitting, and drove them to improve. Or does everyone on a Championship team help in some intangible way?
Levesque writes that Everett should shake up the clubhouse, which is good. And I thought was being provided by Willy Bloomquist, Eddie Guardado, Richie Sexson, and before that by that whole wave of 2004 guys with World Series rings.
Comments
110 Responses to “Thursday fallout and now, forward”
If all the Mariners wanted was someone to shake things up and motivate the players, I know a great guy who lives in a van down by the river who could have spoken with the team.
The most scary part in Stone’s article is the mention of Sidney Ponson. I was speechless when I read that part. This could be the first time in 9 years that I really have to seriously consider if I should use the season tickets money at a better place.
Now I’m interested to see what kind of criteria must be met for the guaranteed second year. Sounds like a possible boneheaded move.
#2: Hey, all I’m saying is that Ponson is a stud on my MVP Baseball 2005 franchise. Of course, it helps him a bit that for some reason in that game he can touch 101 mph with his 4-seamer.
Anybody can become a stud on MVP Baseball 2005. Joe Kennedy’s curveball is nearly unhittable.
What I wanna know, is where those stud kids in the Mariners organization are in real life. Riley and Conway are stallions.
Ponson?!
I’ve always thought they should change it from “K’s for kids” to “Earned Runs for Kids.” That would be an actual benefit to the community.
SodoMofo is going to stink up a Mariner’s uniform. Oh, Bill. Why?
Now I don’t want the M’s to do well, because the media will say BB did such a good job by bringing in Crazy Carl and “firing up the clubhouse.” I’m cheering for him to get injured.
Bavasi gave Hargrove a list of players and Hargrove picked Everett right away? Fire Bavasi for trusting Hargrove and fire Hargrove for being an IDIOT!
I wonder what will be the thing that kicks in the 2nd season? ABs? No more than 2 attacks on teammates?
reading Stone’s piece Ponson being a possible M next year, after he gets out of jail… Is it just me or is this team starting to look more and more like “Major League”?
Does anyone think that Bavasi giving the choice to Hargrove is a way to distance himself away signing C.E.?
I’ve figured it out. Bavasi hates his job, and wants to get fired.
Ive been lurking during the ***Everett ordeal** trying to understand everyone’s reactions.
I won’t deny those posting *bad character guy* posts their sincerity but I think the hidden sentiment is a bubbling frustration that things arent going to get better as quickly as we’ve hoped.
Posters were debating Giles as the answer to lefty sock and they are given Everett. Now alot of fans must be wondering about the rotation. Will debates about Millwood be answered by signing a non-tendered reject or trading for a Milton?
Clearly the left field/DH solution was influenced somewhat by the possible emergence of a guy from the farm—- 2 to 3 seasons from now (who incidentally will begin learning the outfield next year)? Has the FO overestimated the patience of the fan base?
I’m really tired of the folks who like the Everett signing presuming to read the minds of those of us who don’t. Speaking just for myself, I don’t have any goddamned “hidden sentiment”; the reasons I don’t like the Everett signing are exactly the ones I’ve expressed: He’s a mediocre hitter at best, a lousy fielder, has persistent injury problems, there are innumerable better options, it doesn’t help us now or for the future, and the fact that he’s a certified jerk on and off the field is just stinky gravy on the crappy dinner the front office is serving us. Okay? So can you just deal with what all of us are actually saying, and stop making invidious inferences about our hidden thoughts and motives? I am doing you the favor of not trying to read your mind. For now.
#12
He’s a better stick at DH than Morse, Dobbs, or any other bullshit bat Grover tried to pawn off as a designated hitter. I don’t like him either but it’s only for a year and if he sucks, he sucks. They didn’t get any worse by signing him. End of story.
#12: Apparently you couldnt help yourself since you implied an understanding of my opinion about the Everett signing even though I didnt state my position on the signing.
Also, if you dont have a goddamned opinion of Everett’s character, then the post really doesnt attempt to read your mind in any way.
An honest attempt at understanding the post hopefully suggests that I was really both questioning the M’s hidden sentiment (i.e. are they as committed to winning next season as many of the M’s fans seem to be) and also wondering if the fan base has the patience to wait.
But there are all of those *innumerable better* options… :-p
Bottom line, youre not going to get Babe Ruth when youre only willing to pay chump change for one year-youre only going to get a compromise.
Just for the record, Everett was far from an out machine in the post season. He hit .300+ in the playoffs and .444 in the World Series. The statement that he helped the White Sox win a world series has merit, but of course, it doesn’t mean he is a good player either.
#16…I’m glad that someone is trying to point out something we could see as good now that he is ours like it or not…But i think you’re about to get the “Small Sample Size” bomb dropped on you. Just warning ya.
#17, oh I know. I’m just sayin’ the statement technically had merit.
$4 million is not chump change.
$4 million for a below average DH like Everett is extremely wasteful.
and
$4 million is probably the amount per year by which the Mariners will come up short in their offer to Kevin Millwood this year.
My favorite part of the PI article:
“I’m out of my comfort zone, and I think that’s good,” Everett said. “I’ve always been in my comfort zone before this. But sometimes when you’re in the comfort zone it doesn’t lead to you playing your best.”
Everett was in his comfort zone before this?! This will be an entertaining season to watch, thats for sure.
CA sent out his propaganda letter last night re: the Everett signing. Did you all notice the absence of Ichiro (and Reed) in the list of players who are the foundation of the team? When did they last leave out Ichi from a press release to the fans?
from the letter:
Our goal is — and always has been — to win baseball games. We have a good foundation in place with exciting young players like Felix Hernandez, Yuniesky Betancourt and Jose Lopez, and experienced
veterans like Jamie Moyer, Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre and Raul
Ibanez. We still have work to do, but our goal is to become a
championship caliber team as quickly as possible.
Kearly, as stated elsewhere, that’s a very hollow .300 average.
12 for 40 with one walk, and no extra base hits.
.317 OBP, 300 slugging.
A .617 OPS is not a whole lot of help to anyone, least of all from your DH.
I’m just curious, (in anyone’s opinion) was there a clearly better LH OF/DH option still on the market that would be healthy enough to start opening day and be willing to sign a one year deal?
We should probably calm down a little. Everett was a bad signing born of a bad market. At least if it backfires the damage is somewhat minimal.
It does kind of bum me out that we could have had Winn in LF this year for nearly the same salary. Hopefully Foppert/Carjaval makes the trade worthwhile.
[go look up cites]
Here’s another one…
Carl Everett bat night.
Ha, ha, ha, ha….
The M’s weren’t going to contend anyway. If they are going to suck, I’d rather watch them suck in an interesting or better yet, an explosive kind of way. Last 2 years were a complete bore. So I am cool with the Everett signing. Let see what he will do next.
#19: if they are 4 million a year short on Millwood then they were never seriously considering him….
You could look at it this way…the M’s could use the 3 mill this year and additional 14-16 mill for the next two they saved by not signing Jones as moola that can be directed toward Millwood.
The M’s clearly didnt want to stay in house for an immediate solution and they didnt want to risk Durazio,nor did they want to make a long term commitment to the free agents available this year.
Thats means J. Jones and Mueller arent really options.
It’s been noted in the other thread that Hargrove picked Everett from a list of hitters that Bavasi showed him. That’s my guy, he probably said.
Either there weren’t any decent hitters on the list, or Hargrove is an idiot.
kearly, people weren’t exactly happy with Randy Winn’s lack of power and arm strength either. They want to get good players and don’t want to pay through the roof. You either overpay for talents or you patch it up with guys like Carl.
Maybe the M’s will get Millwood in the end and everyone will feel better.
Tom
I think that should read ‘you either overpay for talent or you patch it up with undervalued league average players’. What the Mariners just did was overpay for Carl Everett. Who exactly was bidding against them?
And Kearly, Terry, here’s Jim Thomson’s random list of probably available, likley to make a lot less than $4M-a-year players who stand a good chance of performing as well as Everett.
http://ussmariner.com/?p=3185
“1. Charles Thomas, Oakland, age 27.
2. Kevin Collins, Chicago Cubs, age 25.
3. Ben Grieve, age 30.
4. Jermaine Clark, age 29.
5. Andy Tracy, age 32.
6. Luke Scott, Houston, age 28.
7. Jason Grabowski, age 30.
8. Chris Magruder, Milwaukee, age 29.
9. Eric Valent, N.Y. Mets, age 29.
10. Chris Duffy, Pittsburgh, age 26.
11. Tike Redman, age 29.
12. Tony Torcato, San Francisco, age 26.
13. Matt Cepicky, Washington, age 28.
14. Karim Garcia, age 30.
15. David Newhan, Baltimore, age 32.
16. Jody Gerut, Pittsburgh, age 28.
17. Dee Brown, age 28.
18. Aaron Guiel, Kansas City, age 33.
19. Mike Ryan, Minnesota, age 29.
20. Kevin Reese, N.Y. Yankees, age 28.
21. Matt Watson, Oakland, age 27.
22. Jason Conti, age 31.
23. Pete Zoccolillo, age 29.
24. Eric Crozier, age 27.”
In reading the local press and comments by Bavasi and Everett,one thing jumps out at me. There seems to be as much discussion of contributions in the club house as on the field. Being(Everett) an igniter,motivater etc.. someone who will call someone out if they’re going through the motions only.
Is it possible the Ichro comments about the lack of club house leadership have a bearing on this signing? .
On a side note, both Olerude and Boone after they left, spoke about their own lack of intensity their last year.
#29, I dissagree that Winn was being payed through the roof. Also, his overall defense was excellent in Left, and as a #2 hitter, his statline was solid if unspectacular. For about roughly 4 million a season, thats a value player you can’t really complain about.
And I know theres no way he keeps it up, But Winn hit .359/.391/.680(!) with 14 homers in 231 at bats after being traded to the Giants last year. Mix in his 2005 M’s stats and thats .306/.360/.499 (20 HR, 19 steals) for 2005. For about four million bucks roughly.
That being said, I think it was a win/win (no pun intended) trade considering that we got some pitching quality depth with Foppert and (through Colorado) Carjaval (and the other PTBNL pitcher).
[ot]
How will Everett’s signing play with that substantial chunk of Mariner fan base who place relationships above statistics? Yes Edgar’s charming smile and gentleness are deeply missed by these loyal female fans. But wait didn’t I read somewhere that women find jerks interesting and attractive. They wlll also come to admire Carl as a conversationalist…that he likes to talk to his fellow employees and bosses and that he even has an occasional dinner or drink with a player from an enemy team. They will come to admire him for his meaningful dialogue with teammates like Joel Piniero who play the game with all out casualness and come to the ballpark raring to pick up their paycheck. Yeah. They’re gonna love our new bad boy DH.
[wrong, see cites]
#30, thanks. Is that list in order? I looked up those statlines, and I can’t really agree that they are likely to be as good as Everett, although they are certainly much younger. And cost 4 million less.
Personally, I’d use the DH to give Strong, Morse, Choo, and later Snelling and possibly Jones, some MLB reps. But if Bavasi wants to give it to his new “big bopper” “left-handed sock,” so be it. :\
When the best thing you can say about a signing is that it isn’t a noticeable downgrade, that’s not exactly a ringing endorsement, especially when you consider that this team lost 93 games last year.
#33 It was an extra pitcher thrown in to the Torrealba deal from the Rockies. I’m totally blankin it, but I remember that he used to be in the Dodgers org when Bavasi was there, and that he is 22 years old. He’s a AA pitcher. At least thats what I remember.
I believe Jim’s criteria for the list were: cheap, availabile, left-handed outfielders. He didn’t claim that they would all be as good. although I think there’s a good chance that several of them would be no worse.
Whatever happened to Ben Grieve?
I like this move. To me it suggests that perhaps Bavasi has wrestled some control from Howard Lincoln and that winning, and not community image, is more important to the Mariners. The fact they are also courting Ponson reinforces this idea. It was Lincoln who always said he would never sign any “Attila The Hun” type personalities. I once met Lincoln and asked him why they didn’t sign Ivan Rodriguez when he was available. He told me it was because Ivan was lazy and didn’t practice very hard. Excuse me, isn’t IROD a future Hall of Famer? this type of arrogance has cost the M’s dearly. Anyone who watches the Mariners can see that they have lacked fire the past few years. There is no leadership, no passion, and no swagger. There is no one to get in people’s faces in the clubhouse as guys like Buhner and Javier used to do. I am not going to argue that Carl Everett is anything more than just average as a player but his personality is needed in the clubhouse. This teams needs some swagger and some toughness. Bring on Ponson too.
Of course, Rich, the problem is that Carl Everett is not only a toxic personality, but a bad player.
Not that I like CE all that much but I like the idea that Bavasi brought a little fire into the clubhouse. His bat of course isn’t what it used to be but it is a gap-stop until Morse gets a bit more seasoning in LF (perhaps in AAA) It also isn’t a whole lot of money so it shouldn’t keep us from acquiring the big free agent pitcher we are all drooling over!
Ben Grieve molded on the Cubs bench last year as a seldom used PHer. Truthfully the magic Billy Beane dust wore off of him about 5 minutes after Ben left for Tampa. Ive had some fun earlier going through *the list* and frankly, there arent many names that would cause you to scream, “everyday bat!, everyday bat! oh my gawd dad…i just saw an everyday bat!!!!” We’re talking bottom barrel replacement players.
With regard to Everett:
His splits with RISP last year are encouraging (.299/.351/.495). These were in a little over 100 ABs.
He’s atrocious with bases empty (presumably swinging for the fences or perhaps he sees fewer strikes?).
Everett’s RISP compares favorably to Beltre’s last year: (.271/.357/.447). He looks like an all-star compared to one potential in house fix (i.e. Morse in 59 AB’s: .224/.310/.245). He is a notch below Ibanez and Ichiro/Sexson are much better.
So there is some potential upside with the Everett compromise.
4 million bucks isnt going to break the M’s bank or prevent them from getting a guy like Millwood if they really want him.
Rich
Sure, go ahead and shake up a complacent clubhouse, but maybe we could do it with guys who don’t suck really, really badly at baseball.
Ponson? Seriously?!
Dave,
If it is a foregone conclusion that he is so toxic then why did the White Sox bring him back a second time and how did they win the World Series with him? I am not saying he hasn’t caused problems before but he has also proven he can win. Several of his teams have been in the playoffs. If the M’s were promoting him as the savior to their lineup and a great player I would have a problem. They’re not. They’re saying he is an aggressive, tough, clutch player who gives them a presence they sorely lack now. He’s clearly better than anyone else they have to fill the DH role. And, if he does blow up, it’s a one year contract. I don’t know about you, but I want to watch winning baseball not a bunch of nice guys losing 90+ games. This move shows the M’s are breaking that mode and trying to win. If this is the case there is hope for this organization whether Everett pans out or not.
There was also this nugget in the article:
“Hargrove added that Everett “knows how to win. I think players learn how to win, just like they learn how to hit a fastball and curve. Any knowledge he can give our players through the season in that regard is obviously very valuable.”"
Nice to know that Hargrove provided such valuable critical thinking to the decision. I guess the 2001 Mariners knew how to win, but many of those exact same guys forgot how to win just a couple of years later.
I’ve gone back and forth on my assessment of Bavasi. This seals the deal. It’s a cretinocracy at M’s headquarters.
Re: Everett: I guess “intangibles” do matter in the USSMariner world, just different ones than those that seem to appeal to Bavasi and Co.
Nobody is all good or all bad. If you read the entire Maxim interview, he comes off as no more of an uninformed blowhard than people who get paid to talk on the radio every day. He contradicts himself, and actually seems to be baited a bit by the interviewer. Some of what he says makes sense, while some comments (especially the steroids responses) seem like MLB player chapter and verse. While he says he disagrees with homosexuality and gay marriage, he’s not out to confront anybody about it. He also says he has had gay teammates, who have been part of the team “family.” Frankly, this is a refreshing statement. “I’ll accept him,” Everett says, but won’t condone homosexuality and would tell the teammate so if the subject came up. How this differs from the views of way too many Americans (and ballplayers?) is unclear, except that he is a baseball player being asked about it for good copy’s sake. We know that per capita, black men disapprove of homosexuality at higher rates than the general population, so he’s only out of line in talking about it in the press. I don’t like it in any case.
His comments about dinosaurs hardly stand out in the midst of a bogus national debate about “intelligent design” and our government’s attitude toward environmental science. He’s hardly the most dangerous enemy of science afoot.
His arguments against Wrigley Field are actually quite sensible from a player safety point of view. He says he was “stupid” for going after fans in Venezuela for throwing things at him and won’t do it again. Let’s hope not. He clearly doesn’t care much about what fans think. Parenting issues do not come up in the interview; he’s probably as old school on corporal punishment as on other social issues. It’s probably how he was raised. If I could interview him, I would ask him whether he was raised in the church, which denomination, where, what his parents believed, etc. etc. It is clear that the reads the Bible in no more narrow a fashion than millions of other Americans.
He says Peter Gammons “sucks” and that Jose Canseco is “bitter” and “ignorant” and that the congressional hearings were “stupid.” Nothing radical about those sentiments.
Carl Everett is black. Whites tend to get uptight when black men are aggressive or outspoken or perceived as “angry.” His actions and opinions may be offensive, but the outpouring of vitriol seems out of proportion to the contract, its length, and his likely impact. There was some outrage, but because he was a star, no one wanted Shawn Kemp run out of town when he grabbed his crotch in a game after a dunk. If the black athlete can do the job and the team wins, he tends to get a pass. (Of course, Kemp had more serious issues that came to light.)
I’m not saying the response is racist–I just think we should put it in some perspective and ask whether we really can judge what kind of person he is based even on the evidence provided on the blog. I believe his race automatically slants public opinion against him and amplifies his comments and actions. As an example, only two points out of his Maxim interview seem to be of interest to anyone: the gays and dinosaurs stuff, which you can hear on the old time gospel hour any time you want. In the Maxim interview, Everett is saying he’s not going to take anything off of anybody when discussing fan behavior. He’s not the only black man to have said that. He may not be as justified as others have been. It’s only baseball and he need not assume the fans to be enemies. Then again, he is part of a shrinking minority of black major league players–his aggressiveness and occassional poor judgment may be influenced by a sense of isolation. Who knows?
Richie Sexson was given a complete pass by fans after his DUI last year. Clearly Carl Everett has a very troubling track record compared to Richie Sexson, but really, why can’t we give this guy a chance before judging him to be a terrible human being who hasn’t learned anything? Sexson got that chance.
In baseball terms, it certainly is a problematic deal and that’s where the discussion should stay. (And to its credit, USSMariner centered its reservations about Sexson on the shoulder and the contract, even after the DUI.) Making ourselves feel morally superior by condemning Everett’s views on homosexuality or condemning child abuse (who’s for it?) doesn’t clarify the issue any more than Bavasi’s argument that Carl will shake things up in the clubhouse and get his teammates to play harder. It’s all guesswork and how it translates into individual and team performance is questionable.
He’s better than Dobbs and the April 2006 lineup should be an improvement over the April 2005 lineup even before plugging him in. He’ll be only a small piece of an improved offense.
The title of the post mentions going forward, which is really on point. How much money is left, how competitive is the Mariner offer for Millwood, how many years should they stop at, and is signing him still the best move the Mariners could make at this juncture?
#28– Hargrove is hardly the only manager with a different way of looking at hitters … remember it was Lou who blessed us with Martin & Cirillo (among others) as bats he long coveted.
regarding bringing ‘fire in the clubhouse’ — they’ve tried that, and nothing has resulted from it. Fire in a vacuum….
Batting with RISP is very rarely a repeatable skill, and using that to base your evaluation of Everett is building a house on sand.
He’s clearly better than anyone else they have to fill the DH role.
He’s also very clearly a worse player than Randy Winn (thus, our roster is weaker than this time last year at the positions of LF/DH), is below league average for a DH, (AL averages since 2000: .264/.345/.447) and isn’t dramatically better than any number of replacement-level bats. As Dave said, he’s Shigetoshi Hasegawa- an overpaid veteran who is eminently replaceable. for less cost. The fact that the M’s consider a below-average bat with no defensive value ANY kind of answer to their offensive problems, to the extent that they have a “this is a big deal” press conference trumpeting his clubhouse value and giving him a vestable second year, has to be considered very discouraging if you are an M’s fan. We’re being sold a pig in a poke, folks.
I’m out of my comfort zone
Gay paleontologists.
DMZ, at this point you have made your opion clear, overly clear. Now it would be best if you judged him as a memeber of the Mariners team, a player on the field. Out of all the stuff he has said in the past I was only concerned by one, but it was still largely a non directly involved issue. The rest of the stuff is of no issue. Lets see how he plays on the field and turns the others players in to “ball players”.
Are you saying you would not want Ty Cobb and Pete Rose on your team?
[see comment guidelines]
Proven he can win… Several of his teams in the playoffs… Clutch player.
Carl Everett’s post season stats:
13 ML seaons. Reached playoffs 3 times. Exited first round twice. Won WS once.
Post Season Batting: 68 AB, 16 H, 0 2B, 0 3B, 0 HR, 3 BB, 19 K
AVG: .235
OBP: .274
SLG: .235
A .509 OPS. Whoo. Hooo.
By the time Pete Rose was pushing 40 he wasn’t a very good ballplayer- a singles hitter with no speed at 1B, but considering your comparing two players with HOF credentials to a guy who has about 5 good seasons out of 13, and thus has spent over half his career being a below-average ballplayer, your analogy’s a bit flawed.
#49…please shut up about randy winn… he isnt an option and thus not a valid comparison.
Clearly we wouldnt be having this discussion if the M’s had made the problem by trading him.
please shut up about randy win
You’re missing the point. Everett isn’t left-handed sock that improves the team from where we were last year at DH/LF… since Randy Winn:
- also was a switch hitter
- is a better hitter than Carl Everett
We’ve added an older, worse, more often injured player who also has a record of being a jerk. How on earth can anyone spin this as an improvement at that position? You don’t improve 90 loss teams by adding worse players.
Everett’s also not better than Jacque Jones, then, while we are at it.
#49 Everett’s career RISP: (.298/.379/.507)
So comparing that to last year (.299/.351/.495), id say it looks pretty repeatable to me…
Like I said, one potential upside.
Yay. Carl Everett has RISP performance as a repeatable skill. That adds a small amount to his value. Of course, his numbers overall are declining, so his leadoff numbers must truly suck now.
Again, he’s WELL below average for an AL DH. Decent RISP numbers won’t make up for that.
There must be 1,000 comments about Everett in the various posts, and no one has asked the REALLY important question: Will he rebuke the gamblers and bust up the card game?
#56 id rather have Winn too…
But your comparison misses the point….Everett isnt replacing Winn. He is replacing the tryouts from Tacoma.
His signing likely means:
The M’s didnt like the other cheap FA options (i.e. Burnitz). And to be fair, its not like they passed on some real lookers (though a chance on Durazo doesnt seem like a terrible idea unless it would deep into the season before you could expect him to produce).
The M’s werent willing to commit long term because they think they have an in house solution just 2-3 years away (i.e. Jones)
Probably the higher tier FA’s surpassed their budget given theyve stated pitching is their first priority
There wasnt any way they could solve the need via a trade-either because people said NO or because the asking price failed cost-benefit analysis.
In short, Everett is a compromise who probably gives you more production that random player A.
#56 If you can say Jones is better than Everett because Jones uses leather and wood, I can say Everett is better than Jones because he wont cost 25 mill and require a 3-4 year commitment.
firova (#47) has a good point: now that it’s a done deal, let’s give him a fair shake.
Is he an idiot and a blowhard? Yep. Does he have a deeply troubling history of charcter issues? You bet. Does his contract represent a good value? Not even close. Could the M’s have done better? Probably.
But you know what? For better or worse, the deal’s done, he’s what we’ve got. All that stuff is water under the bridge now. Let’s at least give him a chance, even if we all suspect (and in some cases, hope) that there’s no way this doesn’t end badly.
Besides, intangibles aside, how bad can it really be? If the FO has their priorities in order (a bit of a strech at this point, I know) $4M won’t keep us out of the Millwood derby, but it might keep us out of the bidding for some of the other riduclously overpriced mediocre talent that’s out there (see: Washburn) – not necessarily a bad thing.
Plus, it’s a one year deal with a club option. If he sucks, he’s gone at the end of the year. If he finds his bat but turns out to be an unbearable jerk, we can trade him. In the highly unlikely event that he puts it all together, he’s a slightly above average player with a slightly above value contract – hardly the end of the world.
Not a lot of upside, I know, but the downside isn’t really that bad, either.
Terry—
I agree in part that Everett was a better option than our internal options and other available players, with the caveat that you’re restricted to “known” players. The problem is that I think you’re likely to have gotten better production from the “unknown” players that have been listed here and elsewhere. Major lack of imagination and lack of even moderate nerve.
And even at that, I’d be bitching less if the signing was at $2M or less….
Do you really want to pay 7-8 million a year for 3-4 years for Jacques Jones? His numbers were similar to CE’s last year and he too has been in decline the past few seasons. The money saved can be used to go after pitching. And I agree, let Randy Winn go. He is not here and when he was here he was not the answer. His hot second half last year was a fluke. I said Everett was an improvement over what they have NOW – which is Morse/Dobbs.
Carl Everett was in the playoffs and World Series LAST YEAR. He drove in the second most runs during the regular season for the White Sox LAST YEAR. The fact is it has been proven as recently as LAST YEAR that he can contribute to a championship team. The M’s had a hole at DH, needed a LH bat, and given what they had to work with Everett is as good an option as any that was realistically available to them and he does bring toughness and aggressiveness to a team that was a bunch of pansies the past two years.
I agree with #47. At this point we need to give Everett a chance. Bavasi has put his job on the line here. If Everett turns out to be another Auriela or Speizio, he’ll certainly pay the price with his job. And, as fireova pointed out, outspoken African-American ballplayers seem to get far less slack with the press and fans these days. Barry Bonds, Griffey, Frank Thomas, Milton Bradley, Carl Everett…all have had PR problems. I for one will be judging him on his play at the plate. If he pokes 20-25 balls over the right-field fence this year, that’s good enough for me.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and Everett will kill Willie F. Bloomquist. I’ll have to ask my priest/rabbi/pastor, but I want to pray for this.
Randy Winn was essentially traded for two arms that look like they will help the M’s. Maybe that makes living with Everett for a season more palatable?
Santa Clause isnt real so there isnt any danger that Everett can kill him. Does that help?
I guess the point of #60 was, “in a vacuum there are a ton of other guys Id rather have”
Given the current situation,im not sure there are many guys they couldve signed to DH/LF that wouldve excited me. Most of the suggested options basically require a “lets just wait and see” attitude. At this point thats my stance with Everett (fingers crossed). Id take his numbers from last year at this point.
A great anecdotal data point that aging sluggers can’t be relied upon…
Today is the 38th birthday of Mo Vaughn.
#51
I can’t believe you just put Pete Rose and Ty Cobb in the same sentence as Carl Everett. You have got to be kidding me. All of you fans who want to wait and see about Everett good for you he is not an upgrade in any way shape or form over what he could have found for less money or inside our own organization. They only way this signing would make sense and this is a big if, if we were on the verge of competing for a championship and we needed a average bat off of the bench that’s it. Everett is a bad person with a bad glove and an average bat. We could have brought Boone back if you wanted the numbers Everett puts up. Last year he could have hit 23hr’s and gotten 87 rbi’s if he would have had almost 500 abs as well. I hate this signing.
Also for those people who want to win and could care less about off the field issues. Try taking your son to the game and when he says I heard that he hurt his kids tell him hey its ok son he helps us win.
Ok, I’ll just say thanks firova, well said in #47, and let it go at that.
My favorite part of the P-I coverage was “The word ‘aggressive’ came up plenty Wednesday. He describes himself as an aggressive player. Bavasi and manager Mike Hargrove describe him the same way. For Bavasi, that aggressiveness is something the Mariners desperately need.”
We desperately need to lower our MLB-worst OBP? That’s what I’m hearing. The 2004 M’s were ludicrously over-aggressive at the plate. How many times did we watch Beltre attacking those pitches a foot off the plate and in the dirt? We need to get some MEN ON BASE.
Carl Everett, OBP .311 (lower than the M’s team average) doesn’t really help there, does he? He alledgedly has something called “pop”. That’s assuming that he doesn’t fall off a cliff this year at 35; but even so, are we really looking for 20 solo home runs and NOTHING else? At DH? For $3.4 mil?
Everett is not the worst player on earth, but he answers none of our questions and costs too much money. Guys like him are basically free on the market.
All that stuff about “a bunch of pansies” is retarded shoulder-punching jock-talk that has nothing to do with reality. The M’s don’t play like pansies; they play like bad players. Not only do they lack skills, they lack the understanding of what those skills actually are.
As for the World Series, you will find the answer to Chicago’s success down in the bullpen warming up before the game. We didn’t get any of those guys. Yeah, Carl Everett gets a ring. So do Geoff Blum, Timo Perez, and Joe Borchard. Should we go after them too?
Is Everett a jerk? I don’t care. Is he a valuable baseball player? Not much. Our chances of winning, oh, say, 75 games next year are just about the same whether we give Everett $3.4 million or whether we just flush the money down the toilet.
But the worst part isn’t “Carl Everett”; it’s this: “Mariners like his approach”. His “approach” is the worst part of his game, and extends the worst feature of this terrible team.
Are you saying you would not want Ty Cobb and Pete Rose on your team?
I can’t answer for Derek, but for me “nope”. Ty Cobb is dead and Pete Rose is 62 and banned from playing.
Oh, you meant in their primes? Well that’s apples to oranges as Everett isn’t in his prime and he’s never been an all-star much less a HOF level player. And THAT is much of the issue. I think players like Rose and Cobb — all-star with some character issues — are EXACTLY the type of player we’d like to see the Mariners pursue. (I’d love to see Manny Ramirez or Barry Bonds here.) The problem is Everett is 1/4 the player those guys are and has 4 times the baggage. There’s a middle ground too with a guy like Milton Bradley or even Sammy Sosa; look what Sosa did 5 years ago!!
To me, there’s at least a 25% chance that Everett won’t be a net improvement on Morse/Strong/Corey Patterson/random NRI that the Mariners could have had in LF for league minimum.
Alright… the M’s front office needs to sign Hideki Matsui so we can have “Jurassic” Carl Everett in the same line-up as Hideki “Godzilla” Matsui.
So, is this what the M’s Openng Day lineup will look like?
1. Ichiro, RF
2. Ibanez, LF
3. Everett, DH
4. Sexson, 1B
5. Beltre, 3B
6. Johjima, C
7. Reed, CF
8. Betancourt, SS
9. Bloomquist, 2B
This team may win 75 games, but will be lucky to get to .500, especially if they ignore Dave’s advice regarding available free agent pitchers.
That lineup is more than probable. Doesn’t the fact that the M’s can’t purge Bloomquist from the lineup concern anyone else?
Not a chance. Grover isn’t creative enough to put Ibanez second. We’ll probably see Johjima there.
If I designed the lineup Carl would probably bat 7th or lower. With his .270 OBP I want him to have as few plate appearances as possible.
Ummm, what? You have 2 LHs followed by a S followed by 3 RH. When is Grover ever going to do that?
And, howd you make Jose Lopez disappear?
[actually not so much OT as wrong and frustrating, which will likely be commentor's reaction to this deletion]
Me thinks Bavasi is a Vince McMahonn wannabe. How you may ask? Big Bill signs the biggest heel in the bidness, Carl “Da Crazy Man” Everett, and puts him over all the babyfaces..ie Sexson, Beltre, Easy Eddie, ect. Then along come the “Asian Invasion Duo”, more commonly known as Mrs. Ichiro! and Johjima. The AID ( get it?) come in and challenge ‘Crazy Carl’ to a no-time limit, anything goes, coalminers glove match inside a steel cage match with a loser leaves town special stipulation. Bavasi is probably thinking to let this ‘angle’ brew for around 3 or 4 months to get the biggest house he can. In early April, have Everett hit Sexson and Beltre over the head with a barb wire bat…the fans in Seattle will go batty!! Fans start booiing Everett…Everett flip off the fans. In May, Guardardo is attacked by an insane Carl, crippling ‘Everyday Eddie” til to the point that he is now known as ‘Every 75 days Eddie’. Whats worst, Carl did this deed before a packed house at SafeCo on “Remembering Dan Wilson Day”. Wilson, seeing his buddy Eddie visciuosly attacked, hobbles over to Carl to save his fallen friend, but instead gets a steel chair shot courtesy of Everett. All the females in the stadium shriek with horror. In June it is announced that Ichiro! and Johjima will challenge this bad man to the cage match. Carl picks ARod as his tag-team partner and by then, who in Seattle really cares what the Mariners’ record is? People WILL come to SafeCo to see this…the front office is happy with all the $$$ it brings in…Bavasi is thrilled cause he will have saved his job, and NINTENDO will be very happy because now they can make another game based on this. Now you may ask…who wins..who loses…my lips are sealed…you will have to go to find out…July 15, 2006…SafeCo Field ( a coulpe weeks before the trading deadline..that Bill is a genius!!)…”The Asian Invasion”….be there LIVE or get the PPV!!!
( I know…I have WAAAAAAAY too much time on my hands…but it could happen…maybe)
Cobb is about as good as Everett, but then Cobb’s been dead for quite awhile (to paraphrase an old joke).
There’s probably a roughly 80% chance that Everett’s stats will decline from 2005, based on his age and the pattern of similar hitters in the past.
So, given that a 2005 Everett will be of little value to the M’s, the odds are that a 2006 Everett will be of value somewhere between a 1988 Glenn Wilson and a 2004 Scott Spezio.
OK, maybe that was a little harsh. Maybe a 1994 Eric Anthony.
Signing SIR Sidney Ponson would be perfect for the Mariners, given their recent signing of Carl Everett. Another fiery malcontent added to the mix.
If you thought the Bronz Zoo of the 1970s or the 1980s Mets were “colorful,” you haven’t seen your 2006 Mariners.
It gives new meaning to the Mariners’ marketing slogan: Mariners baseball. What a Show!
You guys are missing my point about Cobb (of which I am a fan). DMZ based much of his anti-CE views on his character and comments afar and not soley on his playing ability or want other atributes he might bring into a rea end dragging club house. Carl E, is a poster child of good ness when compared to the wasteland Ty Cobb (the greatest baseball warrior of all time) left in his path.
Have you thought how Ty Cobb would respond to the same media comments you and the media at large have asked Carl E?
DMZ based much of his anti-CE views on his character and comments afar and not soley on his playing ability or want other atributes he might bring into a rea end dragging club house.
No I didn’t. I’m not sure what led you to this, but my short view of Everett is that from a pure baseball perspective, it’s a bad move, and I’ve offered evidence and my reasoning there. Beyond that, I also feel that Everett’s one a few players I wouldn’t bring in even if it was a good move because of his long history of fighting with teammates, coaches, managers, umpires (well, Kulpa). You may note that in writing up the “reference timeline” I left his comments on gay people/dinosaurs/etc out entirely.
I’ve tried to make it clear that these are distinct arguments and that Everett’s a bad decision outside of his issues.
FWIW, the sentiment at my company about Everett is overwhelmingly negative. The guys on the email thread include three lower bowl season ticket holders, one of whom worked at Real back in the early days and is quite friendly with Ms owner Rob Glaser.
This is the most we have talked about the Ms at my company, ever. I guess the bright side of this is that Ms fans really care about the team. I’ve never seen so many people so passionate about this issue. I’m a little surprised, actually. I didn’t think people were paying attention or even cared about the Ms that much.
The only parallel I can think of right now is what happen when Coke killed the old formula. The screwed with the brand, and people freaked. That is what is happening now. The Everett signing is screwing up the Mariners brand, and people are freaking out. (I’m in marketing, and screwing up a brand is the one unpardonable crime you can commit.)
Bavasi better go light a candle and pray that Everett hits at least .260/.350 OBP with 25 HRs in 500 ABs next year.
Glaser is an owner? I didn’t know that.
Hello, I am not trying to pick a fight here just so you know. I was only refering to the earlier articles you wrote which were sort of harse at least for some of the writtings. I just what to win. I happen to be of the thought that the team is not built around that bad of players, but more around people who have lose there fight and drive. I think we need to start a little anger/arressivenss beneath these guys or tell them to start walking. Heck send them to the minors as an example, I don’t care, I just want to win. My likes with Cobb (Rose) was dispite his attitudes/beliefs/his older age at the end, if you got in thier faces they got in yours.
And the truth is, sad, bad or indifferent, we need Carl E and his in the face attitude with this team. If he can not stir the drink then the drink is unstirable and it would be best to bring back Low and fire the entire team as an example to all who come heither.
I agree the game is too friendly.
“And the truth is, sad, bad or indifferent, we need Carl E and his in the face attitude with this team.”
This is not the truth. Lots of teams have won championships without Carl Everett, or excessive drink stirring.
Even if it is true that the M’s need an attitude adjustment, there are plenty of ways to accomplish that without Carl Everett.
#86 You can bring in players who are good people that will help light a fire for the team and help you win. When you place winning above what’s right then you need to rethink your priorities in life.
Glaser is an owner and several other Microsoft heavyweights (Jim Allchin, etc.).
The combined net worth of the Ms ownership, even in the dot com collapse, was enough to have funded A-Rod’s salary from pocket change.
belatedly, I just noticed that Greg Johns had weighed in (prior to the signing) with a column about how it would be a bad signing from a baseball POV– and that today he also goes into the personal side and fan reaction.
Great articles, I would hope that the Seattle Times and the PI writers would write the same sort of article instead of sucking up to the Mariners FO.
Would anyone feel differently about Everett if he made a nice fat contribution to the Moyer Foundation? He doesn’t seem to care about his public reputation, but he does have five kids and a bit of atonement to do with Jamie. The club should probably nudge him in that direction, if they haven’t already.
90. Wow. The Johns pieces really do put the big papers to shame. Thanks for the links.
#91– remember the fact that Johns writes an opinion column, which gives him a little more freedom than your basic beat reporter has….
#88 You make it sound so easy to just bring in “good people who will light a fire under the team”. Just curious to find out which “good people” you would bring in. And, by the way, you have to work within the M’s current constraints:
1. Almost nothing of value to trade
2. Below average crop of available free agents who are demanding ludicrous contracts
It’s easy to poke holes in what the M’s are doing or not doing but Bavasi is in one heck of a pickle (some of it his own doing and some of it not) and I would like to see what people think are realistic solutions.
I think Everett was the best option left for a left handed hitting DH/LF given the constraints. The comparable options were Jacques Jones (too expensive) and Jeromy Burnitz (too old, strikes out too much.) The offense is almost certain to be better anyway regardless of how Carl plays. Ichiro will be better. Beltre will be better. Johjima will be an upgrade no matter how bad he is. Lopez will put up better numbers than he and Boone and Bloomquist combined put up a year ago. Betancourt should also improve and there is good reason to believe that Ibanez and Sexson will duplicate their 2005 output.
Their biggest need is starting pitching and they still have plenty of money left to address this need due to signing CC (Cheap Carl). It will have to come from free agency as a trade would leave another hole to fill most likely. Millwood and either Washburn, Ponson, or Elarton. I think this is the only way they could go.
To the argument that it’s because he’s black: no. It’s because he’s a jerk. If we signed John Rocker, I’d have the same reaction. First of all: he sucks. Second, he’s a total ass. And the former concern is my main problem. I’m able to stomach having Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Pedro Martinez, or Manny Ramirez on my team because they are world-class players. Carl Everett is far from that.
“Hargrove added that Everett “knows how to win. I think players learn how to win, just like they learn how to hit a fastball and curve. Any knowledge he can give our players through the season in that regard is obviously very valuable.—
They needed to bring in a washed-up headcase to tell them they need to score more runs than the other team after 27 outs? Didn’t Spiezio reveal this little nugget on while he was with the club?
I’m going to assume that Burnitz could have been had for roughly the same amount of money Everett signed for and you could have avoided all of Everett’s negatives. To think that Crazy Carl was the best option available is to be honest naïve. Here is a comparison of the twos stats from last season.
Everett
23HR 87RBI .251BA 99SO .311OBS .746OPS
Burnitz
24HR 87RBI 109SO .258BA .322OBS .757OPS
Man, the stats between Everett and Burnitz are almost identical aren’t they? Good get. My guess is that there were two, maybe three factors that made Everett their choice.
1. Everett played in the AL last year while Burnitz was in the NL
2. Everett is 2-3 years younger
3. Everett is a switch hitter
Burnitz’s glove is better than Everett’s which is not saying much but that adds more value to Burnitz. And again Burnitz has no reason to be hated by the fans. Has not been charged with child neglect and so on and so forth. For these reasons alone Burntiz is a better signing.
Just because I was out of town and didn’t get to drop my take on the Everett signing, chew on this. These stats are each from a veteran switch-hitter the year his team won the World Series. The subsequent year, each was signed by the Mariners.
AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS
.265 .326 .453 .779
.251 .311 .435 .746
As you can probably guess, player B is Carl Everett. Player A? That’s Scott Spiezio in 2003. And remember, Spiezio’s younger than Everett.
Fair point Jeff, but Spiezio won the WS in 2002.
True enough. My bad.
We can only hope that Everett does not subscribe to the Sandfrog diet of beer and tattoos. Spiezio’s inattention to diet and training probably cost him a baseball career. (He hasn’t signed anywhere that I can see.)
Did Spiezio eat the tattoos? That might explain a lot.
In my local birdcage liner is an AP story by Gregg Bell that offers the following BB quotes:
“Today we achieved one of our off-season goals. Carl Everett is a clutch-hitting run producer with power.” (He IS a clutch hitting run producer? As in the current tense?)
“His experience and intensity will be welcome additions to our clubhouse.” (I’d love to know how that comment went over with some of the other players)
CE “would break up any monotony or boredom…and that’s good.” (That may not be the ONLY thing he breaks…)
But all that aside, there are many ways to motivate or provide some leadership. And, um…well…Carl has some, er different ways of doing that. 2006 may not see many wins, but it probably won’t be dull!
Hate to keep bringing this up but for Rich and all the other “If not Carl then who else people” there is Burnitz AND Travis Lee. Lee can’t play the OF but neither can Carl and he is only 30 years old. Oh, and in 404 AB’s his line was .272 .331 .426
Derek, you’re wrong and you’re not a lawyer. Stop playing one.
You’ve totally misinterpreted inaccurate citations from journalists who don’t know what they’re talking about and deleted posts that could explain the difference.
Everett was not criminally “charged” with anything so far as I can tell, even from the cites you posted. Child protection agencies don’t “charge” anyone with anything. They file civil petitions. It’s this way in New York too.
http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/prevention/faqs.asp
I’m updating the citation thing.
joealb,
You bring up a good point. Based on OPS and other factors Travis Lee might have been a better solution. My guess is the M’s didn’t want to introduce their new “left handed hitter with sock” as a guy who most casual fans have never heard of and who hit 12 HR last year. Also, he wasn’t hand-selected by Hargrove if that was in fact true (do you sense Mike getting hung with the L if Carl blows up – how convenient for Bavasi). Also, I really think the Mariners FO and Hargrove feels the M’s are “soft” and so Everett is a statement and was brought in to get the players’ attention.