M’s make all kinds of moves
Moves:
Nageotte and Morse optioned to Tacoma.
Appier, Atchison, Cruceta, Green, Dobbs, Morban, Ransom, Jones, and Miller reassigned to minor league camp.
Summation:
The last two bullpen spots are down to a fight between Jake Woods, Luis Gonzalez, Jeff Harris, and Emiliano Fruto. Harris is the only non-roster player on the list, so he’s fighting an uphill battle to begin with. I’d be surprised if they carried Fruto, but they like him a lot more than I do. So my guess is Woods and Gonzalez, giving the team four lefty relievers. Prepare for some LONG innings.
Dobbs and Morse both going away means that Petagine and Borchard both make the opening day roster. When Lawton returns from his suspension, they’ll pick one of the two to try to sneak through waivers. Pretty surprising that Petagine made the club over organizational favorite Greg Dobbs, but surprising in a “I just found $1,000 in my jeans!” way.
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Since Lawton’s an OF, and 10 days into the season should be about when we’re sure Reed’s okay, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Borchard be the guy sent down. Petagine’s played in 21 games this spring and put up a line of .425/.500/.625, so he’s certainly done all he could to win a spot. Minimum 30 AB, he’s the second best hitter this spring behind Sexson (he of the sick .436/.522/.795).
I know it’s small sample-size theatre, but more and more I’m thinking that teams don’t get that (just look at Bowden), so the team might keep Petagine around.
I’m not too surprised that Rivera becomes the backup catcher, but given all of the concern that we had during the position roundtable this could be a major weakness on the club. Having seen more of Miller this spring, do you think that Rivera is the better choice?
Rivera probably makes the 25 man because Miller is not on the 40 man. Putting Corky on the opening day roster would require another move. And I would hazzard to say that the difference between Miller and Rivera will not influence the overall performance of the M’s.
The best thing to do once Lawton comes back is to send the 12th pitcher to AAA, but that probably won’t happen.
I have 3hrs and 40mins as the over/under on game length when Grover and Showalter hook up with their massively stocked bullpens
Actually, Bavasi should shop Petagine to the Nationals, maybe for spring training flop Nick Johnson (.167/.281/.313).
Isn’t the bullpen competition really between Jake Woods, Luis Gonzalez, Jeff Harris, Emiliano Fruto, and whoever becomes available over the next few days? Bavasi loves uncovering waiver wire treasures like Abraham Nunez and Wilson Valdez.
“The best thing to do once Lawton comes back is to send the 12th pitcher to AAA, but that probably won’t happen.”
That’s my initial reaction too, but with as poorly as most of these guys have been throwing in spring training, might there be a chance that they just can’t find 12 pitchers they really want have on the big club?
#4: HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!! now quit picking on the slow kids…
Seriously though, even old leather pants can see the subtle (*cough*) difference between demoting Church and giving away Johnson-even if he can’t understand a sabermetric argument against bringing Soriano to Washington. Truthfully, I think he moved Soriano to left just to peeve stat heads…
Borchard doesn’t have an option, so they would need to get waivers to send him to Tacoma. I suppose that could be more likely to happen once the season started and 25 man rosters were set, but I think what’s more likely to happen is Petagine goes down because he’s had something like 7 at bats in 10 games (from last year: Dave Hansen got a grand total of NINE at bats in the month of May, and Greg Dobbs got a whopping 5 AB’s in the first 10 games in April. Hargrove doesn’t use his bench a lot).
Re: #5 — I hope that you are correct.
Leaving Willie Ballgame as the lone reserve infielder, outside of a few guys who could step in and play 1B in a pinch.
Here’s for hoping that means Willie won’t be starting much, but that’s the way it looks.
So my guess is Woods and Gonzalez, giving the team four lefty relievers. Prepare for some LONG innings.
You’re telling me. So, basically, we’re looking at Matt Thornton Mk. II and III, right?
[...] The USS Mariner is reporting more Mariner roster moves. Nageotte and Morse optioned to Tacoma. [...]
This group of moves is frustrating all around. About this time of year (especially when bored at work) I like to scribble down the roster that I’d like best. By the end of spring training I enjoy the frustration of the M’s making every decision differently.
I don’t understand why Petagine would be on the roster for ten days, unless the M’s are less serious about Borchard than I’d thought. I doubt either would clear waivers.
That’s an ugly bullpen. I can’t imagine what has distinguished the remaining candidates over those sent down.
I still don’t think Rivera should be Joh’s backup.
#12 your right, Rivera shouldn’t be the back up. Miller had a good showing and figured to be more in ‘favor’ with the powers that be. But I guess not.
Hargrove imlied pre-game that Rivera had the inside track coming into the season, and it was only his showing up out-of-shape to camp that gave Miller a chance to challenge him…
I would prefer to drop a pitcher and carry both Petagine and Borchard.
However, I think given Hargrove’s desire to carry 12 arms, Petagine is most likely to be risked. Who is more likely to make it through waivers- a 35 year old guy seen as largely one-dimensional (and who has been discounted throughout his career), or a 26 year old guy that can play solid corner defense and hit for power?
Heck, since it cant hurt to ask, why not offer Petagine/Borchard to the Nats for Church? While you’d likely be told no, Bowden just might make up your mind for you….
Fruto has been fun to watch this spring, all over the place but still fairly nasty, but why they think he is ready for the Major Leagues now is beyond me, beyond process of elimination.
It’s interesting. I think we all agree the bullpen was a strength last year, and you would think the addition of Soriano and deletion of Thornton would only make it better. Maybe I missed something, but there wasn’t a lot of other turnover, right? What changed to make this so dire?
I think the bullpen will actually be really good- the M’s have at least 5 guys who can be effective, even great. It’s just a shame that there will be a couple of guys who may or may not be useful. I think we’re all a little disappointed that perennial favorites didn’t step up, guys like Atchison and Nagoette, and that the Mariners don’t seem to be sorting things out effectively.
Remember the relief that we all felt when Thornton was traded? It will be about the same when Gonzalez and Woods wear out their welcome.
The backup catcher position is far from critical.
The bullpen, however, is certainly interesting, at least. Soriano, Putz, and Guardado should be effective in short relief. Mateo has been adequate in long-relief. Sherril is no Thornton.
Effectively, this pen is better than last year’s, and last year’s was pretty effective.
Of course, two wildcards at the back of the pen give cause for pause, but those two roster spots are unlikely to have a major impact on winning %, so freaking out about them won’t serve much purpose.
For what it’s worth, I seriously doubt that both Luis and James make the team. I’d bet my left sock that Fruto and Gonzo round out the pen.
who pointed out earlier that Sherrill traditionally has stunk in spring?
The fact that I couldn’t remember Woods’ name further reinforces my intuitive guess that Jake is headed south.
Having a “eh” lefty in our pen soaking up garbage innings won’t kill us.
Oh, you would think that, but Hargrove’s shown a remarkable ability to pick the worst guy out of the pen to use in game-changing situations.
I’d bet my left sock that Fruto and Gonzo round out the pen.
That’s good about Fruto, because with Thornton gone we don’t have anyone in the pen who we can bring in if we absolutely need to walk a batter.
Not to fear. Guardado will extract the maximum talent out of our relief corps through his powers of practical joking.
Okay, so why did Nageotte get sent down? He’s on the 40-man. He could use some ML time to sharpen up in a bullpen. I don’t think he’s got starter “stuff” anyway.
Do the M’s think he’s starter material? If so, the plan must be to have him continue to start games and serve as starter insurance against a kablooie by one of the existing starting pitchers.
WFB is the only backup for all three infield position, plus he’s the #1 pinch-runner. If this roster holds, I predict we’ll see Richie Sexson at third base for at least one inning this year.
It would make more sense to carry 11 pitchers and avoid the Borchard/Petagine DFA issue altogether. Last year, wasn’t part of the reason we carried 12 pitchers to compensate for Thornton’s presence? With him gone, what’s the use? Why keep a crappy 11th and 12th guy on the staff?
I know the answer I’ll get is likely ‘Hargrove’s an idiot,’ but humor me and dig a little deeper.
I can’t believe that Hargrove is going to go with another 12 man bullpen. Its maddening to me, as 11 should be enough to carry a rule v player. Carry a bench, it can be useful.
Something I want to mention, though I’m sure you all know this already. Bill Kreuger was on the radio in Portland last night and made the comment that Bloomquist was the better 2nd baseman and should be starting for the M’s. He even went so far as to say that when he was given the opportunity last year, he really stepped up. I like Bloomquist, and I couldn’t believe what I heared. Perceptions are really messed up when it comes to certain players. Bloomquist is perfect in the super-sub role. Nothing more, nothing less.But if he starts more that 25 games, there should be significant injuries to a team, or the team is really bad. Ughh….
BEN
Bill Kreuger was on the radio in Portland last night and made the comment that Bloomquist was the better 2nd baseman and should be starting for the M’s.
Yeah, well, Bill thinks you win games on offense with sac bunts, advancing on ground balls and stealing bases, and thinks a guy with a lifetime OBP under .300 is a perfect #2 hitter because of those two things.
He’s pretty informative when it comes to some stuff, but Kreuger has a serious case of Baseball Bullcrap-itis, a disease where people keep spouting the same collective “wisdom”, year in, year out, when it Just. Isn’t. True., and are completely unwilling to re-examine these precepts based on any objective evidence that they may not be true- like the fact that Earl Weaver won for years without lots of sac bunts, or that Billy Beane keeps cranking out winning teams in Oakland with far less money than the M’s do, the Red Sox under Epstein, and so on.
Nageotte was discussed at length over the offseason. As Dave has pointed out, he’s turned into a groundball pitcher, so his chances of developing into an effective major league pitcher have increased. Because he missed most of last season with injuries, he needs regular work, which he would not get in the M’s bullpen.
SIX OR SEVEN IN THE BULLPEN? – All this talk. Isn’t it obvious that we need a 7-man bullpen? When the inevitable happens (the conflict between the player and management), and the player rides the pine long-term, then we have the normal 6-man bullpen.
[We have to have seven so we can have six.]
BTW, I see that JEFF NELSON got cut.
Has anyone here considered that it might be reasonable to have a 12 man bullpen since about half of our starting pitchers won’t make it out of the fifth most of the time?
Just a thought…
that was what Bavasi & Hargrove mentioned before the spring even started….
Pretty sure the Ms plan to have Nags start in Tacoma to get more work on then he would get rusting in the Ms pen.
This is slightly off-topic but I have to ask anyways. Do Mariner fans complain about any manager/GM regardless? Or do the M’s always hire inept guys? Are we Mariner fans insatiable when it comes to managers and GMs?
I’ve only been around in the Gillick and Bavasi eras, and they both did different things badly.
Building a team that won 116 can’t be done by some scrub of a GM, had to do something right.
Smeg,
Its a good point about the starting pitchers only going 5 innings, but there has to be a limit. A 5 man bullpen allows for a closer, 2 short specialists (left and right for an inning each), and 2 longer inning pitchers. A 6 man bullpen allows for a additional long relief pitcher/designated whipping boy or a 1 player situational pitcher. A 7 man bullpen doesn’t generally add an additional quality pitcher (see last year) and doesn’t give the 3-4 long relief pitchers any consistant work.a Besides, with a 7 man bullpen, Hargrove might be tempted to go to the 7th pitcher (again, see last year with Thornton). Just my thoughts on the 12 man bullpen.
BEN
Well, yeah, building a 116 win team means something had to be done right…but it’s pretty clear to me that the current Ms management doesn’t know what it is…
I think they should go with a 2 man bullpen when Felix starts, and a six man bullpen when Moyer, Meche, Pineiro or Washburn starts. That’d be the best way to handle this situation.
I didn’t say they did all things badly. The things Gillick did badly didn’t really need doing in 2001 (though he was carrying a bit of dead weight in 2001 – the team could have been better).
Cole – I don’t think 6 guys is going to be enough for some of Meche’s starts.
The 116 wins came due to a confluence of events, none of which I’d guess was preconceived by anyone in the front office.
1. Ichiro! came in and lit off a whole new way of hitting.
2. Boone has a career+ year.
3. Olerud was still ripping doubles all over the place.
4. Edgar was still ripping doubles all over the place.
5. We had great bench players in Mac and Javier.
6. Great, great bullpen.
7. Starters held their own and went deep into the 7th or 8th inning.
8. Sweet Lou can be a fine manager and he had good stuff to work with.
Russ is correct about the 116 wins being a product of a perfect storm of good performances and fortune. Let’s not look at that as a barometer of any Mariners team, given it was such an uncanny accomplishment.
As for the starters, I think we’ll see them going deeper into games on average than last year’s crew. Moyer’s likely good for the usual 6, 7, 8 inning starts. Felix’s 7-8 innings of dominant pitching outdo Aaron Sele’s 4-5 inning disaster outings. I can’t imagine both Gil and Joel will fail to improve and continue to give us the same sloppy 5 inning efforts. And Washburn, as much as we malign him, should be able to manage 6-7 innings a night at least, which should be a bit of an improvement over Franklin, who at his best could work 6-7 innings but usually melted down after 4 or 5.
Should the rotation work a better load, this takes a load off the bullpen. Plus, remember that one of our 7 relievers last year was Matt Thornton, a guaranteed stinker that is no longer here. Another one of those seven was Shiggy, who saw little to no work when it mattered. So it’s not like Hargrove needed all 7 guys last year, even with a crap rotation. He certainly won’t need 7 guys this year with a somewhat improved rotation, and especially without Black Hole Thornton taking up one of those seven spots.
9. Mike Cameron had a career year.
And for 3 and 4, Edgar and Olerud’s combined OBP was over .400. That’s a lot of baserunners at 4 and 5.
The thing about it is, if the long and middle relief guys do there job, you still don’t need 12 arms with an abominable rotation…
Ryan Church’s numbers with the Nats last year were more respectable than I had though (.287/.353/.466). Bowden is absolutely nuts. I can’t imagine Church being stuck in the minors past May.
This guy would be a great solution for the M’s.
What’s the over/under on the number of catchers we’ll use this year?
The 2001 season was the worse thing that could ever happen to the Mariners. It convinced the front office that they could win with guys like Boone, Edgar, Olerud and Cameron, even after they all had down years in 2002. “These guys won 116 games in 2001,” that’s all anyone ever talked about.
Lou knew. That’s why he wanted out. What’s the point of sticking with a team that doesn’t spend any moeny when it’s fan base and stadium attendance was one of the best in baseball. They bring in Bob Melvin, who was a horrible, horrible manager. Emotionless and careless. What did he do when the Mariners starting losing big game after big game while they were in the playoff hunt in 2003? Nothing! Just should at the dugout with a big stupid look on his face. Dumbfounded! What did the front office do to try and fix the damage, they brought in guys like Jose Offerman.
In comes Bavasi in 2004. He has a chance to sign Miguel Tejada, but he passes and settles for Rich Aurilia. On opening day, Aurilia bobbles the first ball hit to him, which leads to runs for the Angles instead of an inning ending double play. Newest Halo acquistion Vlad Guerrero homers. I’m sitting there thinking, why didn’t the Mariners even try to get Vlad, Tejada, or anyone for that matter. When you look back at, Jeff Cirillo in 2002 and Rich Aurilia in 2004, guys that M’s fans were calling “Sukrillo” and “Sukrilia” within the first few weeks of the season, you’re like “come on!”
The 2004 season was a major low-point. Boone, Edgar and Olerud were shells of their former selves. M’s trade Freddy Garica to the White Sox, let Ole go, and wait for Edgar to announce his retirement. In the meantime, fans settled for Ichiro going so far as to trying to bunt his way on with runners in scoring position just to try and break the single-season hit record. Best thing the M’s ever did in 2004 is fire Melvin. Better yet, realize it was time to spend some flipping money!
M’s sign Sexson and Beltre in 2005. I’m sitting there in the front row in the outfield seats going crazy as Sexson blasts two homers. I’ll be there for opening day again on Monday. I’m excited about Beltre, Sexson, Washburn and Johjima. I hope Everett and Ichiro can light a fire in the clubhouse, and I hope Ibanez continues to grow as a leader. The M’s are heading in the right direction. Fans just have to be patient, and the fornt office needs to continue to take more risks (even if it costs money).
LET’S GET THIS SEASON STARTED ALREADY!!!!
Another thing about 2001 that is rarely recognized… The Ms team defensive efficiency that year was a gaudy .727. The closest any team has come to that level of defense since 2001 is .721, by… the 2003 Seattle Mariners. Mike Cameron, anyone? By contrast, the ’05 White Sox put up a .713.
Even as bad as Sele was last year, he averaged more than 5 1/2 innings per start. Pineiro averaged 6 1/2. Meche averaged over 5. Keeping a 7-man bullpen this year is nuts. Especially if it means Bloomquist is the only backup infielder.
1. Ichiro! came in and lit off a whole new way of hitting.
2. Boone has a career+ year.
3. Olerud was still ripping doubles all over the place.
4. Edgar was still ripping doubles all over the place.
5. We had great bench players in Mac and Javier.
6. Great, great bullpen.
7. Starters held their own and went deep into the 7th or 8th inning.
8. Sweet Lou can be a fine manager and he had good stuff to work with.
The M’s also had a great bench, defensive weapon in Charles Gipson in 2001. He was almost as good as Rich Amaral was for the M’s inital playoff voyage in 1995.
But the 2001 season turned into a nightmare for the Mariners, overall. One, because they didn’t win the World Series, and couldn’t even make it there for the first time in francise history. Two, because it convinced the front office that they could win with guys who were quickly becoming has-beens.
Then again, maybe 2001 was just too tough of a year for the M’s follow up with. Too many expectations. I still favor the 1995 season for the Mariners for many reasons to this day. It seems so long ago, but thinking about it makes me wish I was 15 again, having all the time in the world to watch Mariner baseball games.
Speaking of Sele, the Dodgers told him today he’s not making their 25-man roster after posting a 4.32 ERA in six outings. He’s been asked to accept a Triple-A assignment and, according to the Dodgers’ mlb.com writer, he’s thinking it over.
Speaking of Sele, the Dodgers told him today he’s not making their 25-man roster after posting a 4.32 ERA in six outings. He’s been asked to accept a Triple-A assignment and, according to the Dodgers’ mlb.com writer, he’s thinking it over.
Anyone surprised?
The 2001 season was the worse thing that could ever happen to the Mariners. It convinced the front office that they could win with guys like Boone, Edgar, Olerud and Cameron, even after they all had down years in 2002. “These guys won 116 games in 2001,†that’s all anyone ever talked about.
But you CAN win with guys like that, really. Ichiro’s a HOF’er lock if he plays the next 5 years close to his first 5. Edgar’s a borderline HOF’er, Olerud, Boone and Cameron are superior players at their positions, if not quite at that level. Add Garcia, Moyer and Sasaki to that “very good, but not historically great” category and you’ve got a pretty decent core of players to add supporting cast to.
The problem is you can’t win with guys like that once they hit their decline phase- but the core of that team from 2000-2003 hit 90 wins each year over that time, so it’s not like they were one year flukes ala the 2002 Angels (who were under .500 the other 3 years during that time period…but they rolled 7-11 their hot year when the M’s rolled snake eyes at various times all four years, so they get the shiny trophy and rings).
52 – Olerud and Edgar were also both still two of the greatest OBP guys in baseball. Their combined OBP was something like .410.
# 49, 52: Correction: 2001 was not the “worse” [sic] thing that could ever happen to the Mariners. It was the best thing that ever happened to the Mariners.
Also: The M’s were successful despite Gipson, not because of. Rich Amaral, although not invaluable himself, was much more useful to the ’95 Mariners that Gipson to the ’01 version. I still don’t know why they burned a roster spot on him. Maybe they thought they solved the problem with Al Martin.
And — you state with certainty that Pinella left because he sensed the inevitable decline of the team and couldn’t bear the limitation of the team player personnel budget. Sure, that would explain the appeal of the Tampa Bay job.
Well its settled. Looks like another last place, below .500 season for the M’s. This time its not just me predicting it-Pecota thinks so too!!!!!
Only Tampa, the Nats, Rockies, and the Royals are projected to be worse….
Tampa Bay’s looking decent these days. They’ll probably still finish last because they have no pitching, but their bats look like they might make some noise in the coming seasons.
If anybody ever needed an object lesson in how teams get old, the 2001-2005 M’s are textbook.
People think Boone falling off a cliff was bizarre, but it’s pretty standard fare. The unusual thing was the peak he climbed up to beforehand. Likewise Edgar, Olerud, etc. 2001 was already an oldish team.
Not to mention fluke pitching all fluking at the same time; that is pretty unusual.
Gomez? Gomezticator? Is that you? Christ, don’t get mad. It’s me, Fnarf, from the Slog. Your arch-enemy. USSM-head, I should have figured.
Among the many things West Coast King had wrong about the 01 M’s is that they wouldn’t spend money. The problem isn’t that they didn’t spend money, it’s how they spend their very large payroll.
The problem with the ’01 M’s is that they didn’t get any NOW pitching.
Ah for the good old days of asbs-m
If Lou would’ve carried 12 pitchers in ’01, the M’s probably would’ve won the world series….
HA, that’s you, Steve T? How about that…. No, I ain’t mad.
Petaigne’s making the 25-man is pleasant, and not entirely a surprise. The fact that he was brought to camp at all is a sign that someone in the FO gets it a little bit. Then the man hit a ton, really better than anyone except Sexson and Ichiro who are only the most valuable offensive players on the team. I’ll bet Hargrove fell in love with him—for now. After Petaigne sits for most of April, it’ll be hard to expect him to still be sharp at the plate; then we’ll see what the org really thinks of him. Still if Everett ends up being Petaigne’s caddy for a back-up DH, I won’t be crying; Hargrove isn’t going to use the last guy on his bench anyway, so whoever’s name is on ‘Splinter Joe’s’ jersey doesn’t much matter. I’m way happier with Borchard and Petaigne than with Morse and Dobbs, I’ll say that much; one can hit and one can field among the former pair, while neither is true of either in the latter.
Rivera always had the inside track at back-up catcher. Miller was brought to camp for exactly the same reason as Vina, to push the org’s favorite lazy son. Only Miller actually played well enough to show he can still hold down that role in the Bigs. Bummer for him to be the special invitee at a game of kick the can; I actually hope he gets traded or released so he can hook on for a real job, but he’ll probably be kept as insurance. Oh well.
I agree that Fruto and Gonzalez are the probables for the last two slots. And again, it has seemed all along that many of these ‘pen possible’ guys are just here as shadow boxers to push the few folks the team _really_ wants to step up and make the big club. Come on: has anyone seriously thought that the Ms wanted Jake Woods, Sean Green, or Cruceta in an Ms uniform. ‘Certain guys’ have friends on high, but haven’t established the desired performance level yet, and the ‘earn it’ philosophy seems much in the air in ST this year; rather like smoke from burning oily rags in a 55 g. drum, but. Could Fruto be Chavez’ personal project? The dude seriously needs time in the high minors. I was hoping the Ms would find a way to hang onto L. Gonzalez; if it takes a 12th man on the staff, I’ll say “hear, hear” for that, but again I don’t know how effective he’ll be. Like his arm, though. I’ve liked Atchison all along, too, but he through SO BADLY this Spring one has to wonder if he’s still hurt. Bad timing for him, but he’s always been a hard luck guy.
Nageotte and Foppert are being groomed to start. There was no way either one was going to make the 25-man unless one of the starting five totally imploded in camp; that didn’t happen, and Clint and Jessie both wore down later in Spring Training. I wouldn’t put to much into that, as it was the normal ‘dead arm’ time in the prep cycle. Neither Pinero, Meche, or Washburn threw all that much better these past ten days or so, but when a young guy gets hit around everyone makes more of that. The best thing for both Nageotte and Foppert is to get a solid 10-12 weeks of starting at AAA. If the big club needs them after that, they’ll be in a better position to help then they would coming out of camp with all eyes on every mistake they might make.
First it was “We won’t rush Jeremy Reed back, because that’s the worst thing for a wrist injury,” then it’s “He may start on Opening Day.” Now, it’s good to hear that JR’s injury is apparently much less serious than feared—except that such a phrase from a Mariners senior employee strikes fear into my heart. They’ve been wrong so many times with exactly this kind of sequence that one would better bet on trend continuity there, in which case rushing Reed back is exactly what the first statement implies, the worst of all possible choices. Let him get some work in, then assess how the wrist handles it. Still, it’s good to hear that Reed appears to be better; I’m not a Reed man, as is (too) well known, but I can’t root for any athlete to be injured, this is what they do with some of the best days of their lives, and one can only root for success. Beyond that, though, I’ve been hoping for a put-up-or-shut-up year from Reed in ’06, real progress or reality turns the wheel. Now, if JR comes back from the ‘injury’ and tears the cover off the ball, well and good; that’s one kind of progressive reality. But if he sat for ten weeks, then came back and hit soft and small like he has, everyone’s going to say, “Awwww, it was the wrist injury,” Reed gets given a mulligan for ’06, and we do it all over again next year. Here’s for JR being healthy, on the field, and showing what he’s got.
Rumor:
M’s shopping Pineiro to Pittsburgh for Craig Wilson:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06089/678008-63.stm
Would have made sense several months ago before the bulk of the free agents were gone, but now, I just don’t see why we would pull the trigger on this one.
I agree. There are no ready options for Piniero’s turn in the rotation. And what exactly does Mullet Man do for the Mariners? He adds no flexibility or depth, he’s getting old and he’s coming off an injury. He’s a legit hitter, but adds nothing defensively. PASS.
What would Wilson add? Gee, how ’bout a little bit of power to a team that hit 130 home runs last year (91 by players not named Sexson). The Mariners hit exactly half as many home runs as Texas last year — and we can’t attribute all of that to the difference in their home ballparks.
Yes, the timing seems odd since they now have Lawton and Petagine as good hitters off the bench. As for the comment that “he’s getting old
and coming off an injury” he’s 29, which isn’t particularly old for a guy that’s primarily a hitter. And the time to acquire a guy like
this is after a year like he had in ’05 not after he hits 29 bombs like he did the year before. You’d have had to overpay big if you wanted to get Wilson a year ago…
Wilson had a .387 OBP in ’05 which overall was a bad year for him. Over his 5 seasons in the majors, he’s averaged a HR for every 19 AB’s. What’s not to like?
If the M’s are considering making a deal like this it’s because they’re not liking what they see out of Joel and they know if they don’t deal him now they won’t get anything for him. It’s certainly possible that they’d get a 4th or 5th starter type back in that deal or another deal (John Thomsen is being shopped by Atlanta).
It seems that the Pirates are interested because Pineiro won’t be a free agent next winter and Wilson will. But as far as the M’s are concerned Pineiro may as well be a free agent next winter. Unless he has a really good year, what are the chances they tender him a contract next winter at $7.5 or $8 mil (that’s the raise he’d get in arbitration even if he has another crap year)???
#66 sounds like a bad deal, therefore Bavasi will make it… JK. anyhay, about that Sizemore deal. I wonder if Bavasi can be as creative… Hey Carl 24 mil for 6 years, Yea baby! x-(
Regarding Joel, if he pitches poorly over the next three months, his trade value by the deadline is negative, and considering his salary said value is thin at best now. To get anything back for him, let alone a useful player, would be a plus. The only question to me, then, is: Is Joel on track to return to any sustained effectiveness _this_ season? Sentiment and analysis around here are, Not likely, with which I tend to concur. Piniero really disappered from the map in the back part of ST this year, didn’t he? Few comments from Hargrove, Chavez, Bavasi, and nothing particularly attractive in his time on the mound. Were he to to, this would probably mean that Appier would be starting for the first half of the season, which doesn’t figure to be pretty, but I’m more for the team moving on so that they can move up.
I’d love to see John Thomsen come here, and if he did he figures to be significantly better than Washburn. Atlanta should be expected to name a fairly dear price, though, so I don’t see this happening—unless somehow it’s Pinero + sweeteners for Thomsen, in which case act today not tomorrow sez I.
Can someone confirm this: Asdrubal Cabrera & Adam Jones will be playing for Tacoma. I certainly didn’t expect them to be promoted so fast. It’s nice if they are ready and it would be nicer if they can be on the team next year. How cool would it be to have Reed LF, Jones CF, Ichiro RF — a 3-CFer outfield defense with 3 potentially awesome bates. I do wonder about Cabrera… there is no spot anywhere for him for possibly many years.
Piñeiro IS a free agent next year (his 6th year in the majors). And the problem is that the rotation’s paper-thin right now, with no viable candidates behind Meche at 5, so you HAVE to get someone back, as well as figure out what to do with the logjam you’d have between Wilson, Ibañez, Everett and Lawton. Everett and Lawton can’t be traded as FA signees until June, and Ibañez just got resigned precisely because the M’s want to keep him around to be the Warm And Fuzzy Fan Favorite Who Came Up Through The System. The deal makes no sense.
Pineiro WILL NOT be a free agent after the ’05 season. This is his fifth full season. He did not accumulate enough service time in ’00 and ’01 to count as a full year…
Is it possible that Bavasi wants to pick up Wilson and flip him to the Braves for Thomson? Seems like I read that the Braves were one of the teams interested in Wilson. Could Bavasi be that smart? Keeping Pettagine on the 25-man gives me a glimmer of hope.
Could this be a guilty conscience trying to rectify a past mistake (even I can see Petagine/Wilson platooning at DH improves the club dramatically)? But truthfully, this move doesnt makes sense NOW when the roster has a ton of guys who can play outfield ut no real option to replace Joel.
I agree that this deal doesn’t jive with the current shape of the roster. It would have been different a few months ago, though.
So the team signed Piñeiro to a three year deal to buy out some arbitration, but didn’t buy out his last year?
Ooooooookay…what the hell was the point of that?
Doesn’t stup us from non-tendering him…
..and Meche.
#78 said “So the team signed Piñeiro to a three year deal to buy out some arbitration, but didn’t buy out his last year? Ooooooookay…what the hell was the point of that?”
The point was that they didn’t want to give a pitcher a four year deal because of a) risk of injury and b) risk of suckiness.
That deal saved the Mariners from being on the hook on Pineiro for another guaranteed $7 or $8 million for 2007 so they can hopefully spend that money on someone who won’t suck…
while P’burgh has been interested in Thomson, too, he is still hurting, and at last word might start the season on the DL…
Except they could have Halama’ed his ass for nothing THIS season, had they not done a 3 year deal, and had the extra 6 million.
So we don’t want to do this out of fear that we couldn’t replace Pineiro?
I’m all for chucking Pineiro’s salary to the curb. He’s not a LAIM, or even an IM at this point. Wilson, on the other hand, could become coveted by a decent team (read: TOR, STL). It’s your basic something for nothing trade.
Finding $1000 in your jeans would be like if the M’s traded Willie Bloomquist for Alex Rodriguez. Petagine for Dobbs is like finding $20…
I’m all for chucking Pineiro’s salary to the curb. He’s not a LAIM, or even an IM at this point. Wilson, on the other hand, could become coveted by a decent team (read: TOR, STL). It’s your basic something for nothing trade.
Again, where does Wilson play, and do you put a guy like Jesse Foppert in the rotation, even though he’s not shown you he deserves it? This deal would have made plenty of sense in November, but corralling the market on lead-footed outfielders and DHs and blowing a hole in your rotation doesn’t make much sense 4 days before the opening of the season.
The thing I’m wondering about isthat apparently Piñeiro’s contract was under team control for 2003 (read: would not have gone to salary arbitration)…but they gave him a guaranteed contract covering 2003 anyway. I don’t see why you wouldn’t buy out his arbitration after 2003 instead of 2002, unless the M’s THOUGHT he was going to be a FA in 2006. The deal was widely reported at the time as being a buyout of Piñeiro’s arbitration years.
Other sites (mlb4u) don’t have him listed as an upcoming FA.
I think they’d go to Harris first, then to Foppert. Wilson has no role in Pittsburgh, for reasons that cannot be explained through logical means. So I doubt he’d be more unhappy here. My guess is that they’d platoon him until he could be dealt.
I see it as an opportunity to get something for nothing. I can’t imagine any other circumstance where the could drop Joel without taking on someone else’s problem. It may inconveinet in the short term, but could pay off.
I’d just like to see the M’s take a chance to improve the team rather than wade waist-deep in the status-quo.
Harris is the version of Ryan Franklin that’s not from Spiro, Oklahoma. His peripheral numbers suck just like Ryan’s do, and Piñeiro is CLEARLY a better P.
I don’t see that having 73 left fielders and not enough starting pitching “improves the team”, simply put. If the Mariners want to give up on 2006 before opening day and randomly accumulate talent regardless of the holes it leaves on the roster, OK, I guess. Like I said, this would be a great move for November when you CAN make over the roster and sign free agents. But absent enough starting pitching in an American League where everyone who is a legitimate contender either has massive amounts of offense and adequate starting pitching (Boston, NY) or massive amounts of starting pitching (Indians, White Sox, Oakland, Anaheim), I don’t see how this helps you contend. Wilson’s a nice player and an improvement on Everett, but the M’s problems are more likely to stem from a crappy pitching staff, because I think they have an OK offense- it’s just that Safeco helps obscure that.