Roster Shuffling
Dave · April 23, 2006 at 8:26 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Here’s a day for you:
Joe Borchard DFA’d.
Clint Nageotte called up from Tacoma.
Clint Nageotte has one bad inning.
Clint Nageotte optioned to Tacoma.
According to Jason Churchill, Bobby Livingston will be coming up from Tacoma to take the empty roster spot. Churchill is also speculating that Livingston will join the M’s rotation shortly with rumors of a Joel Pineiro trade in the works.
I can’t get any confirmation of the Pineiro stuff, so while I trust Jason, take it with a grain of salt for now.
But, yea, the Tacoma Shuttle is back.
Why was Nageotte even called up. The bullpen is not overworked, and had Nageotte been in Safeco, Hargrove might have had to use one of is good relievers in the eigth inning. The more bad relievers at Hargrove’s disposal, the more inclined he is to use them.
And why Livingston over Harris. They cleared a spot on the 40 man for Harris. It seems like he was built for that 12th man thing.
Pineiro is one of several things that could happen in the next 48 hours, but it’s the most interesting and the one that changes the makeup of the roster the most.
Eddie could go on the DL. Meche could be moved to the pen. Woods could be sent out.
Meche could be traded.
Livingston may make an appearance or two from the pen, btu he was told that they want to start him up in Seattle.
LHP Cesar Jimenez was promoted to Tacoma to help fill in, since the club has been without the services of Tom Oldham and Scott Atchison for the past 10 days.
My guess is that Meche is moved to the pen, and Livingston takes his spot.
I hear Harris is with his wife for the birth of their child.
Guardado was warming up to come into the game today if the M’s had taken the lead in the 8th. That being the case, I can’t see him going on the DL. If there was something wrong with him, you’d think they’d have known it before the 8th inning today.
OK, I think I know what they’re trying to get for Piniero, but their roster moves this year seem like the work of a kid off his ADD meds.
Wait. I think I know why Nageotte came up.
And if all they’re after is a utility infielder of the Wilson Valdez mold, why aren’t they flipping Meche and an end-of-the-road guy (Michael Garciaparra) for, oh, Eli Marrero? The Rockies aren’t stupid, but given their history of turning our parts into gold, they might just gamble on it, given that they have mounds of utility infielders strewn between the Front Range and Tulsa.
Nah. ADD GMing is like.. Reds-era Bowden. Or some of Dan Duquette’s years in Boston. This isn’t nearly to that level yet.
yet.
Bowden is an example of why drinking and GMing should be outlawed.
JOSE MORBAN!!! C’MON JOSE!!!
Actually, a Joel Pine trade would be great. I like selling high.
I mean, they should give GMs Breathalyzer tests every time they make a trade or make any moves that even a six year old knows is dumb, dumb, dumb.
“Mr. Bowden? The Commissioner wants to know why you optioned Ryan Church. Please blow into this tube….”
what would we trade Pineiro for? A hitter I presume? or would we be looking at prospects here?
and is the general vibe that Livingston can step in and do a good job? I have the same feelling about him as I did about Travis Blackley, and we know how that turned out.
Harris pitched an inning in Tacoma this afternoon. Though yeah, his wife should be due around now…
I really like Livingston. I would miss him in Tacoma. I understand it’s not all about me, but honestly, give me something….like just one more Livingston start tomorrow night…
I wonder if the team feels the need to add a 2nd capable infielder, ideally with some kind of bat. If Wee Willie’s already replaced YuBet in the game and Beltre comes up in a key late-game situation, we can’t pinch hit for him because we have no other 3rd baseman (Raul? Richie?). Looking down the farm, we’re pretty thin at 3rd – Dobby anyone?
Morse can stand at third competently, and then we have Jose Morban.
Um…Raul has a .000 fielding percentage at 3rd (1 E in 1 TC), and Richie would be hilarious at third.
Wherefore art thou, Justin Leone?
Agreed – Raul and “Big Richie” were facetious suggestions, highlighting the “unique” roster construction. So, why not recall Morse, or even Dobby, from Tacoma instead of “yet another pitcher”? I really question the Nageotte move given that he’s done fair, but not great, down there so far.
Meche for a solid backup infielder, toss Livingston into the fire of the rotation, maybe that’s a net positive.
As long as we get a scrappy player for Pineiro. That’s what we need, right? Someone to fire up our anemic lineup, for example Bloomquist and Everrett?
Why the heck did we dump Cody Ransom!?!?!?!
Cody Ransom is not the answer. All I saw him do all spring was botch simple ground balls, and rack some errors.
what type of pitcher is he? all i’ve found is finesse and moyer like. What does he throw, whats the speed? Where can i find some more info besides baseball prospectus?
marinerschas2 – I’m thinking (hoping) that if Livingstone comes up to start, someone here will do a write-up.
Honestly I have no idea what he did last year, I took most of the year off baseball. Before that, what I seem to remember liking about him was he didn’t pitch stupid, didn’t mess around walking guys and trying to be too fine. He didn’t have the greatest stuff, but was very economical and a good innings-eater type. I mean that as a compliment. I think he was a fastball/change/curve guy. I know his fastball wasn’t higher than low 90’s and it may be lower than that.
I may be completely wrong, and if so I hope someone will correct me. You’ll get much better info tomorrow when everybody that knows what they are talking about more than me is here.
Eh, I guess I’ll jump in and get it over with.
Bobby throws 83-85 mph, could throw as high as 90 (and did prior to being drafted) but prefers precision control he can only get with the lower velocity. He probably has the best change-up in the system, and if it’s not the best, well, it’s easily in the top five or so. Effective against lefties and righties, as is his curveball, which is quite a good pitch in its own right. He doesn’t pitch exactly like Moyer, he’ll hit the corners, but doesn’t nibble too much and tends to rather aggressive in his approach. Smart enough to adapt to changing circumstances and strives to make the hitter hit his pitch, but that doesn’t mean that he won’t get knocked around now and then because there isn’t much margin of error for him.
thanks j, i read your website daily, love to read about the minors
In short, Livingston is a LH Joel Piniero, except he’s more pitch efficient. Bobby has been pitching well, and there’s reasonable odds he’ll throw at comparably to Joel, rookie or no. So, yes please, sell high on Joel, cause he’s throwing just about as well right now as it looks possible for him to do.
Piniero and Beltre in HEAP-BIG dealie for . . . naaaaaah, in my dreams.
I’m by no means sure why Nageotte was up to throw that ground [meat]ball which will put him back under the floorboards in the org’s dawghouse, but just as utter speculation the Ms may want to see if they can Papelbon him, i.e. come up with a ‘fired up closer’ that might make it possible to move Guapo in a deal. Mark my words: Eddie gets traded some time this season. In fact, Eddie isn’t throwing that badly: his velocity is ‘normal’ for him; his breaking stuff has bite; it’s just that his location has been off. Guardado began both of the last two seasons the same way before his arm rounded into shape, more or less, so.
I _loathe_ the ‘Tacoma shuttle,’ it reeks of poor offseason planning, and hesitancy in roster decisions in Spring Training. But with the team floundering through 1-8 lately, and attendance staggering what else is the FO going to do, hey? —Trade somebody, SO DO IT.
I find the Nageotte move a bit baffling. Having him pitch one inning does not bolster the pen a lot and its not as if there was a shortage of available men – Woods hasn’t pitched since April 18 if I am not mistaken.
Borchard’s probably better off with regular playing time in the minors, provided he clears waivers.
Oh, and why would you trade Pineiro at this time?
Clearly, Nageotte = Papelbon.
Seriously, dude, go take a reading comprehension class.
Red Sox Nation, the Matt Thornton of fan bases.
Won’t be for Craig Wilson. After Sean Casey went down the Pirates need the Mullet Man for everyday services.
At the same time, it’s probably the way to roll with this one, trading off the Pinnie. He’s a junkballer with low velocity without much future promise, and his numbers look “okay” right now. Sell high, baby.
Geesh Dave, if youre gonna continue to be snarky with BoSox fans, it will be almost impossible to convert them to Mariners fans….
I’ve got a way to shake up the team that doesn’t involve getting rid of an arm from the rotation…..
Fire Hargrove.
I think Pineiro will be dealt for a fringe prospect to save money.
I think Livingston can do just as well as Pineiro can, so why not?
If Pineiro is gone, we can’t re-sign him, and that’s a good thing.
If the trade rumor is indeed true, then good on the FO for recognizing the opportunity while Pineiro pretends to still be a quality ML starter.
#29.
While I admit it is lame of me to take the “I told you so routine,” you’ve gotten under my skin enough that I feel compelled to point it out.
I said: “Clearly, Nageotte = Papelbon.”
Dave: “Seriously, dude, go take a reading comprehension class.”
Ummm…
Dave: “Papelbon is essentially the Red Sox version of Clint Nageotte. Power pitcher without a good offspeed pitch, low to mid 90s fastball, lots of scouts prefer as a reliever. Papelbon has slightly better command, but Nageotte showed some groundball dominance this year, so those can essentially cancel each other out. Would you trade Jeremy Reed for another Clint Nageotte?”
#25 — I would blame the “Tacoma shuttle” and the jerking around of Nageotte on Hargrove’s insistence on using 12 pitchers. The bullpen was not overworked, and had been doing fine. Nageotte was unnecessary. If Grover doesn’t demand 12 pitchers, Nageotte never gets called up, this mess is avoided, and the M’s may have won yesterday as Grover may have had to use Putz in the eighth.
And at what point would we know if Borchard clears waivers and can be sent to AAA?
“with the team floundering through 1-8 lately, and attendance staggering what else is the FO going to do”
“I think Pineiro will be dealt for a fringe prospect to save money.”
Damn. There goes the optimism I had that the Ms might do something meaningful.
#26 – Unless they’re going to recall one of the existing Tacoma outfielders, I’m not sure where they would put Borchard. Choo and Bohn are hitting well and need the playing time. Adam Jones is a dreadful center fielder, (saw him turn a single into a triple on Saturday night), but if he’s going to improve he also needs playing time and since he’s hitting ok, there’d be no point in sending him down to AA.
Morse is hitting poorly, as is Hunter Brown so I don’t think either one could be of much help as a spare infielder.
Having seen Kevin Appier on Saturday (it’s likely he’s through), as well as Foppert and Nageote, I think that Livingston may have the best shot at contributing at the major league level among any of the current Tacoma starters.
The M’s need to package Pineiro and some serious cash for a strong starter on a floundering team. There’s still time to get this turned around this year. I view moving the only pitcher who has been decently strong this year as a mistake. Even if he implodes later, we stand a good chance to get a win when he hits the mound, at least for now. Maybe Felix and Washburn help get something going through a stretch. You all say “sell high,” but that is not an apt analogy. When you sell high you get top value in return. If we sell him high for a guy or two who simply add to our bench depth, we’ve ultimately lost. Unless, of course, willie goes too. Then I am in favor of any trade. OR package Pineiro and Guardado for a serious arm, move Soriano into the closer role, and I think we’ve accomplished something. I think there are teams willing to give up a quality starter for a closer and a starter who is performing well.
Piniero for Ryan Howard?
*ducks*
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
But yes, it’d be nice to see them get good value out of Joel while he’s looking good. The operative keyword there being GOOD, not mediocre.
#40
Doesn’t make sense.
“I think there are teams willing to give up a quality starter for a closer and a starter who is performing well.”
Yah, but are there teams willing to give up a quality starter for a closer who is performing like a horse in desperate need of a bullet and a starter who is performing well?
#42. Given that Guardado has these kinds of starts to the season, and his record in the past, I think there are a few teams willing to take a shot on him as part of a package. After all, Mesa got his job based on his past accomplishments didn’t he? Everyday Eddie has a reputation that will overcome a few bad save situations this year. I think Pineiro is actually the harder sell for the same reason.
#43. But that is kinda the point isn’t it? Trying to convince a GM that Eddie is still good given his performance so far flies in the face of trying to convince a GM that Joel’s performance will remain good despite his past.
You’re telling the GM to give up a quality starter based on one guys past and in spite of the other guys past.
Not a very convincing argument if you ask me.
#44, Well, you are only pitching half the story for each. You sell a GM on the “potential.” It goes something like this:
BB: “Pineiro has returned to “pre-suck” form of just a few years ago (2002-2003), and he is a quality starter who will eat up some serious innings for you. The “suck” years were really the anamoly (2004-2005), and now he’s back in form and getting it done. PLUS we are offering a guy who has been lights-out for us as a closer, getting over 35 saves and an ERA under 3, 3 out of the last 4 years, is prone to slow starts, but then turns it on. He’s a proven guy who’ll get it done for you.”
GM of hopeless team: (to himself) Sheesh, if even one of these guys does what he has shown he can do, I’ve got something here. If they both do, I am a frickin’ genius. They are calling for my head, and there’s a good chance I’m gone soon if I do nothing, so moving this solid starter, getting a starter in return who is performing well and a closer who can probably seal the deal for most nights when our fans hold their collective breath, is a gamble I am willing to take. (out loud to BB) “Ok!”
You package a current performer (with a poor 2-year track record but a solid few years before that, i.e, a proven form that he is returning to) with a consistently strong closer who can be run out there everyday, who is just having his usual slow start. It’s the grouping that makes it an interesting and possible trade, and it’s all in the sales-pitch. Plus it’s 2 for 1 for the other GM and you get a starter to replace the one you lost. Now, the real piece to the puzzle is to find a bottom-dweller with a belief that staying the course right now is not in their best interest, AND that has a strong starter who is consistent and proven. They are out there though, trust me. And they are probably not numbers guys like most of the folks on this blog, so you don’t have to do anything but run out the ERA, W-L, and SV numbers (for the good years) in your pitch. I don’t have confidence in BB to sell a trade like that, but I think it can and should be done. Otherwise hold on to Pineiro until he falls apart. To trade for a couple of role players that won’t start everyday (or every 5th day) is a mistake.
#45. Well, there ARE a lot of sucker GM’s in the league……..
I love listening to Jason just astound & dumbfound Softy
msb — details! details!!
On his weekly show, Jason mentioned that Livingston would be coming up (and carefully didn’t mention Pineiro, just that roster changes would have to be made) which was startling enough, but when he mentioned that Hargrove might actually be on very thin ice, and that Rohn might be in line to take over, well, that was news.
Interestingly, Dave only an hour or so earlier had pooh-poohed a caller who thought Rohn would be in line to take over– he said no, as Hargrove wasn’t going anywhere, and Rohn had only won at the AAA level, and wasn’t even at Tacoma anymore, and he then had to ask where Rohn was currently (his crew informed him Rohn was an advance scout…)
Any word on a replacement for Nageotte?
Livingston is scheduled to start for Tacoma tonight and I’ll be attending. Their site still has him listed as the starter. And, I can’t find any other details out there.
as of 3:13 today, “Seattle Mariners Executive Vice President & General Manager of Baseball Operations Bill Bavasi announced today that the club has recalled left-handed pitcher Bobby Livingston from triple-A Tacoma. Livingston, who will wear #35, will be available for tonight’s 7:05 pm game versus the Chicago White Sox at Safeco Field.”
I’m glad to see Livingston get his chance, but I hope it’s not in garbage-time relief or LOOGYesque situations. If ever a pitcher was made to be exclusively a starter, it’s the soft-tossing, non-platoon-splitting Livingston.
While there’s no way to know how well Livingston will or won’t do as a major league starter, I do think he’ll be an interesting test of the extent to which pure scouting should be allowed to hold sway at the higher levels.
Despite the fact that Livingston has done nothing but succeed at every level, there are a lot of baseball people who would prevent him from rising any higher simply because they don’t think his stuff will translate at the major league level … due in large part to ingrained prejudices against soft-tossers.
I say, let’s keep this simple. If you do nothing but succeed, you should keep getting chances to succeed until you fail.
Since someone asked . . .
Justin Leone is in Portland, hitting .460/.541/.889 (!) while waiting for the Padres to call.
Bavasi was hanging out in the Mariner’s washroom the other day with Mike Hargrove. As he was leaning over to receive a warm wash cloth from the blond Swedish bathroom attendant he turned to Mike.
“Hey, I hear Nageotte is getting his confidence back.”
“Oh really, hadn’t paid much attention to anyone other than Bloomquist.”
“Well, it’s true. Maybe we should bring him up and throw him into a tough situation,” said Bill.
“Wouldn’t want him to get a fat head.”
“That right, we are doing the kid a favor, really.”
“Okay,” said Bavasi, “I’ll make the call.”
“And I’ll put him in a difficult spot,” said Mike.
Bavasi turned to the attendent as requested a double-tall latte, then settled into the chaise lounge in the washroom. He hesitated for a moment, then said.
“You know what would be really great, let’s send him right back down regardless of what happens.”
“That would be great,” said Mike.
“I bet he could even take the train up in the morning, and the train down that afternoon. That would be cool.”
“Naw, let’s make sure he drives up in traffic, then drives home in traffic too. That way he’ll get a long time by himself in the car to think about things. Setting a young player up to fail, then letting him stew about it, is a good management technique,” said Mike.
“Done deal,” said Bill, and he walked off into the night.
Churchill also mentioned that he doubts Borchard will make it through waivers, so if there’s a trade brewing, something tells me Borchard will be part of it.
Saw something interesting in Joel’s last start. I had seats behind homeplate, right behind a scout for the Devil Rays. The interesting thing was as soon as Joel was removed from the game, I believe it was in the 6th inning, dude put his Jugs gun away, put on his coat and left. He was clearly scouting Pinero. It may be nothing, but when Churchill says that a trade is in the works, makes you think maybe they are shopping him. Who would the M’s be after from the D-Rays? Aubrey Huff? Hmmmm.