Best Sweep Ever

Dave · August 20, 2006 at 8:19 pm · Filed Under Mariners 

The last four days, the M’s got swept. Again. That concluded an 0-11 road trip against the AL West where the team dropped 8 games in the standings. The first game of the road trip, they were playing to even their record. Now, they’re just as close to .400 as they are to .500, and the last two weeks have been nothing short of disastrous.

That, everyone knows. But the last four days have seen more than just the Mariners getting their butts handed to them on a nightly basis. The last four days brought more good news than we’ve seen in a month. For instance:

    Chris Snelling’s career as a minor leaguer effectively came to an end, and he got 10 plate appearances in four days, going 3 for 7 with 3 walks. The Mariners desperately need Snelling’s skillset in the line-up, and the fact that he went from troubled Triple-A soul to getting semi-regular playing time for the Mariners was a huge positive.

    The M’s took a proactive approach to keeping one of their prized young arms healthy – instead of telling Mark Lowe to buck up and learn how to pitch through pain, they shut down a kid who has been a revelation since coming up from the minors and has no injury that anyone can diagnose. He’s not hurt, per se, but the team decided to take the cautious approach and do a little preventative maintenance. For an organization that spent the last 10 years shredding arms, that’s a big step.

    Jamie Moyer was scheduled to make 7 more starts this season for the Mariners, none of which would have any impact on the future of this club. The season’s story has essentially been written, and he would have simply been pitching for pride and personal statistics. Instead of having Moyer just ride out the waves, the team turned him into a 23-year-old with a low-90′s fastball and a potential outpitch slider. In picking up guys like Baldwin and Travis Chick in the Guardado trade, the Mariners continue to stockpile kids who have enough raw talent to be something if things break right. Andrew Baldwin is better today than Mark Lowe was a year ago, or then J.J. Putz was when he was as a 23-year-old in A-ball. It’s easy to write off kids like Baldwin as longshots who are likely to fail, but they do come through sometimes, and the payoff can be very valuable.

    Ichiro played center field. Really. The starting outfield that we were calling for three months ago became a realization today, with the best defensive outfielder on the roster manning the most important of the three outfield spots in order to open up a spot in the line-up for Chris Snelling. If Ichiro and the Mariners are willing to make this center field thing stick, it opens up a lot of doors. As much as we like the future that Adam Jones could have, this team is better both today and in 2007 with Ichiro in center field and Snelling flanking him in a corner. Ichiro, as a right fielder, is an all-star and one of the better players in the game. As a center fielder, he’s a legitimate MVP candidate in most seasons.

    The annual Mike Hargrove late season collapse is on. No one thought he was going to be managing this team in 2007 several months ago, but after watching his team fall in on itself in the final two months of the season yet again, the only way Mike Hargrove returns to the club next season is if he personally catches Osama Bin Laden. And even then, it’d still be up in the air. The losing sucks, but it brings with it the guarantee of a new manager, and that’s a cheery thought.

    And finally, Doyle has arrived. Two thumbs up to the guys at KSTW who got that on the air.

So, yes, the M’s just spent another weekend with LLLL added to the tally. But, in the end, there was a ton of good news that came out the last four days. I’d argue that I’ve never been more pleased with an 0-4 weekend before. This was the best sweep ever.

Comments

221 Responses to “Best Sweep Ever”

  1. JG on August 20th, 2006 8:28 pm

    Dave, there was a lot of talk over whether Hargrove bucked up and told Ichiro to play center, or that Ichiro volunteered. Can you shed some light on that?

  2. Dave on August 20th, 2006 8:30 pm

    I don’t know. Hargrove’s public comment was that the organization had talked to him about it quite a while ago, and Ichiro finally decided that he was comfortable with the idea yesterday. From my understanding of the organization, I don’t see any reason to not believe him.

    So, I’d imagine that’s pretty much what happened.

  3. JG on August 20th, 2006 8:32 pm

    Well good. I hope to see that alignment in the future. Now can Jones make the transition to left, or would something else be in the cards?

  4. Dave on August 20th, 2006 8:36 pm

    There’s no reason to move Jones to left. Send him back to Tacoma next year and let him improve his approach at the plate and his abilities in the outfield. When he’s clearly shown that he’s made the necessary adjustments and can be a major league hitter, then you can shuffle the deck chairs around, let Ichiro be comfortable again in right and have Jones take over center field.

    The M’s rushed Adam Jones to the majors because they didn’t have anyone else in the organization they felt comfortable with in center field, not because he was ready to play in the show. There’s no reason to move him to left just to keep him in the show.

  5. msb on August 20th, 2006 8:38 pm

    any way we can get Comic Book Guy to read that headline?

    so, having been done out of my game by the Washington State Ferry system… how did Doyle & Ichiro look out there? Dare I hope to see the same outfield come tuesday night? I am happy to let Jones get more work, and then let Mystery Manager take a look at him next year.

  6. Typical Idiot Fan on August 20th, 2006 8:44 pm

    Dave,

    Would you buy into a conspiracy theory that Snelling had a rotten August on purpose just to help steer along the “injury” that put him on the 15 day DL? I mean, you look at how frustrated he was, how bad he was at the plate, then a couple of days before he gets the call back up here he starts hitting again, shows his usual stellar approach at the plate in his 10 PA’s in the majors, etc?

    I’m cooking with gas here, you know it. Now where’s my tinfoil hat?

  7. Newby on August 20th, 2006 8:47 pm

    so if Ichiro does play center next year, what would be better if it came down to it. Snelling in right, ibanez in left or the opposite? Im guessing snellings arm puts him in right but I really don’t know much about outfield alignments.

  8. JeffS on August 20th, 2006 8:48 pm

    Is it possible Ichiro realizes how much of a great addition Snelling is and that’s the only reason he is willing to move to center?

  9. Bilbo on August 20th, 2006 8:50 pm

    Dave, any chance that Ichi in CF is permanent or is it a “let’s try it for a while and see how it goes” kind of thing?

    If it is permanent then my hope would be that the M’s move Sexson in the offseason and look for a high OBP good power kind of guy (Crawford type) or a legit corner OFer/DH type with Ibanez moving as necessary.

    Oh, and you forgot to mention that we are only 2 games out of having the #4 pick next season! sigh…

  10. eponymous coward on August 20th, 2006 8:51 pm

    I have to agree that those are some positive developments, Dave…but the rest of the season has the potential of being very ugly, with the rotation being various replacement-level Ps getting auditions from Tacoma and nobody doing much other than King Felix, and Soriano likely to follow Lowe onto the DL. I hope nobody’s fooled if Baek or Woods has a hot few weeks into thinking they are more than this year’s version of Halama or Franklin.

  11. Dave on August 20th, 2006 8:58 pm

    Would you buy into a conspiracy theory that Snelling had a rotten August on purpose just to help steer along the “injury” that put him on the 15 day DL?

    Um, no.

    so if Ichiro does play center next year, what would be better if it came down to it. Snelling in right, ibanez in left or the opposite?

    On most clubs, you want the better defensive RF in right field and the worse guy in LF. Both Ibanez and Snelling have strong arms, but Snelling runs a bit better than Raul does. Because of the way the fences are in Safeco, I think LF defense is more important than RF defense, but it’s not a huge deal either way. I’d go with Snelling in left, Ichiro in center, and Raul in right, but I’m not going to argue with with the way it was today.

    Is it possible Ichiro realizes how much of a great addition Snelling is and that’s the only reason he is willing to move to center?

    No.

    Dave, any chance that Ichi in CF is permanent or is it a “let’s try it for a while and see how it goes” kind of thing?

    Try it for a while. I really doubt it sticks past this season, and with Jones in the pipeline, the organization doesn’t have a big incentive to make it permanent. At the most, I’d think you might see it next year if Ichiro really takes to it, but by 2008, he’ll be back in RF.

    If it is permanent then my hope would be that the M’s move Sexson in the offseason and look for a high OBP good power kind of guy (Crawford type) or a legit corner OFer/DH type with Ibanez moving as necessary.

    Carl Crawford is a high OBP guy? He’s a good player, but he’s not a guy who works the count and draws walks. And Tampa’s not trading him.

  12. Bilbo on August 20th, 2006 9:29 pm

    True enough on Crawford. My original thought was a guy like Abreu or Manny, but I don’t think they are going anywhere and I can’t see the M’s taking on their salary, even if Sexson is moved.

    Snelling goes a long way toward solving some M’s problems, but they need another high OBP guy with a little pop and I don’t know where that guy would fit unless Sexson is moved.

    As long as these great changes are taking place, is there any reason Hargrove sticks around the rest of the year?

  13. dw on August 20th, 2006 9:29 pm

    So, assuming we’re looking at Ichiro in center and Snelling-Jones on the corners, does that give the club more impetus to move Sexson in the offseason and play Ibanez/Benuardo at 1b?

    What of Clement, BTW? Did the rush to Tacoma set him back?

    On the one hand, Dave, your overwhelming optimism is, um, kinda annoying. OTOH, if Jones can get it together in 2007, if Clement can get it together, if we can grow a pitcher without shredding a labrum, if Felix can learn to pitch, and if Bavasi can put down the crack pipe long enough to avoid overpaying that much and stepping on more than one free agent landmine… I think this team is going to be fighting tooth and nail for the division title in 2008. Just one more year of transition. Hopefully.

  14. cougs129 on August 20th, 2006 9:33 pm

    #12 Manny is almost ALWAYS available the ? is will we take on his salary doubtful

  15. rd on August 20th, 2006 9:34 pm

    Another good development: USSM “Doyle” shout-out by the graphics people [and Rick Rizzs(?)].

    This team is in contention next year if they make the right moves. Big if, though.

  16. cougs129 on August 20th, 2006 9:37 pm

    #15 what moves do you recommend we make? hindsight is 20/20

  17. gwangung on August 20th, 2006 9:41 pm

    hindsight is 20/20

    As so many posters here inadvertantly show….

  18. PositivePaul on August 20th, 2006 9:43 pm

    To all ‘em naysayers that continually harp on Dave, et al, for being so dag blasted pessimistic towards the M’s — I say “Touche!”

    Shedding Moyer and moving Ichiro to CF is a HUGE turn of events. Having Doyle in the lineup, too, even messed up the guys in the M’s video room this afternoon. He looks WAAAAAAY different than when I last saw him in Tacoma a few weeks ago. Nice to finally have a hitter like him in the lineup (knocks on wood, strokes a rabbit’s foot, avoids black cats and ladders…)

  19. pinball1973 on August 20th, 2006 9:44 pm

    Hargrove hasn’t been fired yet. As for the other good news, it doesn’t make me any happier, really, or less angry about how it came about: I’m clapping loudly, with one hand.

  20. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 20th, 2006 9:47 pm

    #13. Man, that’s a lot of IFs. My worry is more for the rotation than anything else. Shoot, going into LAST offseason we figured we had ONE hole to fill in the rotation (and they picked Washburn to fill it, which, while serviceable, isn’t any kind of dramatic move). Going into THIS offseason they’re looking to fill THREE – which just makes them pretty obviously desperate shoppers if via trade OR free agency, and likely to get reamed for whatever we pick up.

    And then there’s the bench. It’d be nice to have one for a change.

  21. gwangung on August 20th, 2006 9:49 pm

    And then there’s the bench. It’d be nice to have one for a change.

    Well, first you have to have a manager willing to use one.

    Bavasi assembled something that was serviceable at the beginning of the year. Hargrove simply didn’t want to use it.

  22. Zero Gravitas on August 20th, 2006 9:51 pm

    There’s a funnier than usual line in Steve Kelley’s column tonight where he recommends the Mariners ‘begin to stretch out Mark Lowe, see if he can throw his 95 to 100 mph smoke for five, six, seven innings.’…
    The very same day they put him on the DL he writes this. How do you get paid to write about a team you don’t know anything about?

  23. Dave on August 20th, 2006 9:51 pm

    On the one hand, Dave, your overwhelming optimism is, um, kinda annoying.

    Why don’t you take it up with the guys who find my overwhelming pessimism kinda annoying, decide which criticism to go with, and then get back to me?

  24. rd on August 20th, 2006 9:53 pm

    A lot well depend on what they can get with their resources (and how much they are willing to spend). The M’s need to pick up two pitchers someway or another, at least one top of the rotation guy. Easier said than done, of course. We have plenty of guys in the system to compete for a fifth spot. They need to add another hitter and rebuild the bench (and get a manager who knows how to use a bench).

  25. Coach on August 20th, 2006 9:56 pm

    Doyle also injected some energy into the lineup. Aside from Beltre, this bunch looks pretty lifeless. I’d love to see that energy and plate approach in the first inning, but that would mean batting Doyle in the 2-hole. In my view, that’s where he belongs. However, as we all know, one can’t bat consecutive LH. Also, Dudley needs the 2-slot to teach right-handers to hit the other way.

  26. gwangung on August 20th, 2006 9:56 pm

    Frankly, I think we’ll see substantial improvement just by replacing Hargrove. One late season face plant could be a coincidence. A number of them….is not.

    Lots of holes to fill, but you might be able to get a better read if you can get a competent skipper in there to lead the team.

  27. The Ancient Mariner on August 20th, 2006 9:57 pm

    The problem is, you tell Hargrove he needs a bench, he tells you, “We have one — I’m sitting on it.”

  28. JMB on August 20th, 2006 9:57 pm

    “Best. Sweep. Ever. Rest assured, I will be voicing my approval on the Internet within minutes.”

  29. Typical Idiot Fan on August 20th, 2006 9:59 pm

    Um, no.

    A-ha! You’re part of the cover up!

    I like Ichiro in CF. Man that ball that Figgins smoked he almost ran down. I don’t think any of the other M’s outfielders even come as close as he did to that. The speculation, said on the radio broadcast, was that Ichiro volunteered to move to CF and let Snelling play in RF. I wonder if Ichiro moved there for the greater challenge, because he knew he was the best option, or because he knew Snelling should play and that Adam Jones should go down to Tacoma and Bloomquist shouldn’t play at all and this whole thing is his way of sticking it to Hargrove. Meh. I’m thinking too much.

    Right now my big fat concern with this ballclub is the bullpen. What was once our strength has become a precautionary shutdown, a shutdown that SHOULD happen, with only Sherril and Putz leftover. I don’t trust Mateo, Green, Fruto, or Pineiro as far as I can throw them. Then again, it’s not like we’re playing for anything but pride at this point.

    Lopez can stop sucking any time he wants. I’ll let him.

    I growled at the TV today when Rivera struck out. Two pitches before he swung at ball four. Idiot. Bases loaded, two outs, with Ichiro up sounds better then Rivera K’ing with 2 left on base.

  30. gag harbor on August 20th, 2006 10:04 pm

    Dave,
    Since we can conclude that Hargrove is prone to late season collapses, can we also conclude that when Bavasi leaves a team, it gets better (good enough to take the Angels to the WS)? Of course, it required a solid field manager (Scioscia) so should we pick up where Darrin Beane (TNT) left off and start naming managerial targets?
    Do you think Gardenhire could be pried away from MN?

  31. eponymous coward on August 20th, 2006 10:08 pm

    I think this team is going to be fighting tooth and nail for the division title in 2008. Just one more year of transition. Hopefully.

    Uh, why would you spend money in the 2007 FA pitching market if you weren’t making a run in 2007? Why not save your money? Hell, why not trade Ichiro and Sexson and build for 2008 if contending in 2008 is really what you want to do? It’s not like the attendance isn’t imploding under the current regime anyway.

    I also don’t think Bavasi gets 5 years to build a team that’s playing meaningful games in September. If the past 3 year of non-contention don’t get him canned (and I think it’s 50/50 that he’s gone), another one in 2007 almost certainly does. Five Year Plans might be OK in the old Soviet Union, but they don’t work so well in MLB. They have an annoying tendency to turn into even longer periods of sucktasticness, ala Baltimore.

  32. Spencer B on August 20th, 2006 10:08 pm

    Jeez, there’s so much good news, you dropped one. Taking Pineiro out of the rotation for Woods shows a tacit admission that the original plan wasn’t working, and the creativity to turn to an in-house solution. Even though the original plan was very expensive. Baby steps, I know, but a move forward. Let’s see if Jake can be a creditable fifth starter for next year with a six start audition. He’s not going to be Ron Guidry, but he might be able to be diet Jarrod Washburn for a year or two.

  33. Evan on August 20th, 2006 10:09 pm

    The Doyle stat on TV was AWESOME! Just AWESOME!

  34. Bobby Valentine's Porn Mustache on August 20th, 2006 10:10 pm

    I was on a hike today, and about 3:30, was taking bets with a fellow hiker on how many runs the Ms were behind.

    We turned out to be wrong (they bet 3, I thought it would be more), but still.

  35. Bobby Valentine's Porn Mustache on August 20th, 2006 10:11 pm

    Since we can conclude that Hargrove is prone to late season collapses, can we also conclude that when Bavasi leaves a team, it gets better (good enough to take the Angels to the WS)? Of course, it required a solid field manager (Scioscia) so should we pick up where Darrin Beane (TNT) left off and start naming managerial targets?
    Do you think Gardenhire could be pried away from MN?

    I say we get Buck Showalter for a year, then fire him and Bavasi.

    If that doesn’t guarantee a ring, what will?

  36. Bender on August 20th, 2006 10:17 pm

    I like these positives, but I was hoping the silver lining would be a nice juicy Hargrove firing.

    Is there any chance they get rid of him on the off day, or do we have to sit through six more weeks of his crap?

  37. Bobby Valentine's Porn Mustache on August 20th, 2006 10:18 pm

    Could we bribe an umpire to give him a six-week suspension?

  38. JMHawkins on August 20th, 2006 10:21 pm

    …the only way Mike Hargrove returns to the club next season is if he personally catches Osama Bin Laden…/

    Like Jamie Moyer’s final 7 starts, Hargrove’s final few dozen games aren’t going to mean anything for the team’s future. But, catching Osama would be a significant benefit for all concerned, so I think we should have Hargrove on tne next plane to Waziristan. He can do some International Scouting while he’s at it.

    Seriously, something has to happen to get the team out of the funk they’re in. Hell, make the Moose the manager for the rest of the season. Ten-to-one he’d do better, and he can’t even talk.

    Or blink.

  39. noel on August 20th, 2006 10:24 pm

    30: Gardenhire?? Ick. We have enough tactical “hitting” as it is.

    Another reason for Best Sweep Ever: The Ignitor hasn’t been very visible lately. That’s always a good thing.

  40. eponymous coward on August 20th, 2006 10:26 pm

    Since we can conclude that Hargrove is prone to late season collapses, can we also conclude that when Bavasi leaves a team, it gets better (good enough to take the Angels to the WS)

    That’s the ultimate in Small Sample Size Theatre in Bavasi’s case, but Hargrove has had other late-season collapses in Baltimore. He’s also mismanaged more than enough to richly deserve a firing, whereas you can construct an argument that isn’t a bad joke that Bavasi might deserve another go-round. (Frequent posters know I don’t buy the argument for a nanosecond, but I do think it’s within the “reasonable doubt” gray area of judgment calls- just one I don’t agree with.)

  41. G-Man on August 20th, 2006 10:27 pm

    I loved the Osama Bin Laden line.

    I’ll go one further. An 0-11 road trip, day off tomorrow, season is written off … could Hargrove be fired on Monday?

    What is the benefit of keeping him around, anyway? Possible benefots include making it clear to the world that there’s an opening for 2007, and letting Dan Rohn get some experience before deciding whether to hire him permanently.

  42. beckya57 on August 20th, 2006 10:28 pm

    I’m not sold on the Moyer trade; getting rid of him and getting prospects certainly makes sense, but I’m not impressed by the prospects. Yes, I know we weren’t going to get much for a 42 year old pitcher, but did we have to give up money too?? I’m still mad that 1) Soriano’s still pitching, 2) Hargrove’s still managing, 3) Bavasi’s still the GM, and 4) Lincoln and Armstrong are still calling the shots. (That last is the most important.) I’ve thought all year that this site was absurdly optimistic about this team (remember when you were all talking playoffs?!), and I still think that.

  43. gag harbor on August 20th, 2006 10:31 pm

    Taking a look at Rohn for the rest of the year is worth punting Hargrove for right now.

  44. JMB on August 20th, 2006 10:32 pm

    Hey, if you like Gardenhire, I hear Tom Kelly’s available these days…

  45. gag harbor on August 20th, 2006 10:37 pm

    42, this team could have come together much better and much earlier than it did with some good management along the way. I don’t think the numbers and the talent suggested that talking playoffs was out of the question but when the fork in the road came up, Hargrove and the failings of organizational moves made sure Seattle went south while Oakland went the other way. I’m amazed that a private company would sit by and let things unfold the way they did so actually, I think the in-action by Lincoln (not firing Hargrove, not questioning Bavasi for Everett, Washburn, etc.) is what went wrong. Perhaps those guys should be more pro-active. Other organizations have learned to go outside the normal boundries (i.e., Epstein).

  46. gag harbor on August 20th, 2006 10:40 pm

    Tom Kelly smokes too much but then again so does Leyland. Gardenhire has a geat sense of humor and knew Guardado was a set-up guy 3 years ago and he has the Twins playing as good as could be expected. Only the Dodgers have matched the surprise of the Twins in 2006 and LA has only been doing it for 3 weeks.

  47. gwangung on August 20th, 2006 10:40 pm

    42, this team could have come together much better and much earlier than it did with some good management along the way. I don’t think the numbers and the talent suggested that talking playoffs was out of the question but when the fork in the road came up, Hargrove and the failings of organizational moves made sure Seattle went south while Oakland went the other way. I’m amazed that a private company would sit by and let things unfold the way they did so actually, I think the in-action by Lincoln (not firing Hargrove, not questioning Bavasi for Everett, Washburn, etc.) is what went wrong. Perhaps those guys should be more pro-active.

    Um, no.

    GIven my read of the organization, there are a number of management imperatives coming from above Bavasi…and not all of them are consistent (let alone conducive to winning baseball). I’m not sure you WANT Lincoln to be more active (and from what I hear, an active Armstrong cost us Randy Johnson).

  48. gag harbor on August 20th, 2006 10:42 pm

    Firing Hargrove if Bavasi wasn’t going to would have been better than the alternative. Um… No?

  49. noel on August 20th, 2006 10:45 pm

    We could do a lot worse than Rohn for manager. I figure it’s worth giving him a shot.

    The M’s main problem in the last few years was the refusal by top management to accept that the team needs to rebuild from within. Scott Boras could smell the desperation like a shark smells blood.

  50. rd on August 20th, 2006 10:47 pm

    There is no reason we shouldn’t hear an anouncement tomorrow that Hargrove has been fired. Seriously, how many managers go 0-11 on a road trip (against your own division, no less) and keep their jobs? And what’s the point of letting him run out the season? The season’s over, you might as well get a look at Rohn and see what he brings to the table. And give the fans some assurance that this shit’s not okay with the ownership either.

  51. IdahoInvader on August 20th, 2006 10:58 pm

    Snelling is the perfect sort of hitter for this lifeless/empty batting average line up. Its been great seeing him actually work the count and show some patience and brains up there.

    BUT…

    How much can you afford to DEPEND ON a player who seems to get hurt EVERY year? That’s what scares me.

    We need him plus at least one other potential high on base player. We have too many guys that will swing at almost every pitch that isn’t behind him. In fact its hard to think of anyone that doesn’t. Maybe Raul…sigh

  52. Coach on August 20th, 2006 11:14 pm

    Maybe we just platoon Rohn and Dudley. Lets see…Rohn gets to manage against all teams with an “S” in their name and Dudley gets the rest. We could let Jeremy Reed explain to Dudley that it is “not a platoon”.

  53. IdahoInvader on August 20th, 2006 11:20 pm

    Reed…

    How many more years will the organization waste with him?

  54. gwangung on August 20th, 2006 11:36 pm

    Firing Hargrove if Bavasi wasn’t going to would have been better than the alternative. Um… No?

    What makes you think that it was Bavasi that was preventing the firing?

  55. LB on August 20th, 2006 11:50 pm

    And to think it was less than a month ago we were seeing comments like this lauding Hargrove (“steady guy at the helm”), Bavasi (“has had some success”), and Willie (“such a treat”).

    (The site’s search box doesn’t find any more recent comments by that contributor, but then again it doesn’t find the one I cited.)

    Now we are reduced to Best Sweep Ever. It’s been five years since the M’s made the playoffs, and since they first got there in 1995 (Rick Rizzs will tell you about that magical season when the Yankees come to town next week), the drought has never been so long. Sigh.

  56. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 21st, 2006 12:08 am

    I’m not convinced they’ll fire either Hargrove or Bavasi, at any point this year or next. I mean, my god, they haven’t fired Bavasi YET though we heard pre-season both he and Gil Meche were on a super short leash, then there was all the guessing here that Hargrove would be gone by May 19, then a good month followed by a collapse and more ‘surely Hargrove will be fired if this/that/the other thing’ talk here, followed by a few wins, then this latest debacle road trip and the current round of ‘yup, Hargrove is for sure gone’ talk.

    That’s one of the things that has made this site seem absurdly optimistic at various times throughout the year. Bavasi and/or Lincoln seem to have the same problem that Hargrove does. Just like Hargrove SHOULD have known to stop writing Everett’s name in the lineup, just like Hargrove SHOULD have known months ago to get Pineiro out of that rotation, well…Bavasi/Lincoln SHOULD have known to get rid of Hargrove MONTHS ago.

    This team from top to bottom defies all logic. And while the points Dave mentioned are indeed good things, I’m not convinced they establish a reasonable hope that things will continue to improve. Sometimes life just does that to you so it can turn around and confound you.

    (Then again, I got burnt recently by somebody I trusted a lot, so I tend to be a little devoid of hope all around these days).

  57. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 21st, 2006 12:11 am

    And then I went to read today’s P-I, the notes of which imply that Ichiro in center is temporary, only because Willie has a bad back. If true, thus invalidating 2-3 of the ‘good signs’ (Ichiro in CF, Doyle getting playing time, Willie not getting playing time).

  58. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 21st, 2006 12:15 am

    I’m apparently channelling Art Thiel, though he is much more succinct. Especially in his paragraph about how the Ms have to do 3 times the work in the rotation this year than they did last year when they came up with Washburn as an answer.

  59. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:21 am

    I don’t like Doyle playing OF during the cold months. His hamstrings are too fragile. It’s best to DH him so he can keep his muscles warm.

    Otherwise, I agree that those are positive moves. Good summary, Dave.

    And, woo hoo, Ichiro showed some emotion out there today. Yippee. I like it and most American fans will like it too.

  60. AK1984 on August 21st, 2006 12:21 am

    By the end of August, Seattle Mariners GM Bill Bavasi should do the following things:

    1. Purchase the contract of Cha Seung Baek from the Tacoma Rainiers.

    2. Designate Joel Pineiro for assignment.

    3. Purchase the contract of Francisco Cruceta from the Tacoma Rainiers.

    4. Place Rafael Soriano on the 15-day disabled list.

    5. Recall Emiliano Fruto from the Tacoma Rainiers.

    6. Place Julio Mateo and Willie Bloomquist on revocable waivers, with the intent of allowing the team(s) who claims them to acquire their respective contracts.

    7. Recall Renee Cortez and Mike Morse from the Tacoma Rainiers.

    Come the end of the Tacoma Rainiers’ season, Bavasi should do the following things:

    1. Fire field manager Mike Hargrove and bench coach Ron Hassey; hire Dan Rohn and Dave Brundage as the field manager and bench coach, respectively.

    2. Recall Bobby Livingston, Cesar Jimenez, Greg Dobbs, Oswaldo Navarro, and T.J. Bohn from the Tacoma Rainiers.

    3. Recall Yorman Bazardo, Travis Blackley, Travis Chick, and Wladimir Balentien from the San Antonio Missions; insert Blackley into the rotation and place Jake Woods in the bullpen.

    4. Designate Jesse Foppert for assignment.

    5. Purchase the contract of Jon Huber from the Tacoma Rainiers.

    6. Designate Clint Nageotte for assignment.

    7. Activate Jeremy Reed from the 60-day disabled list.

  61. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:27 am

    I’m impressed by your plan, AK.

    What does your proposed recall of Dobbs accomplish?

  62. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 21st, 2006 12:32 am

    60: RE #7, Cortez just went on DL.

  63. Jon Wells on August 21st, 2006 12:44 am

    #60 Gee, I’m sure glad you’re not running the team. You want to call up several guys that aren’t close to being ready for the Majors, some of them just to sit on the bench. Where are Bohn and Balentien going to play with Ichiro, Snelling and Ibanez in the OF?

    You want to bring up Chick now because you want to see what you got for Eddie Guardado — and then what? You’ll release him after a couple of bad starts? Chick has walked 29 and struck out 27 since arriving at SA. Chick has no business being in the big leagues at this time and neither does Balentien or Navarro.

    And while Blackley might get a shot next year, he’s really not ready now either. What do you have against Woods? He was a starter his whole minor league career. He was never a shiny prospect like Blackley, but he didn’t put up an ERA over 10.00 when called up to the bigs either. I’m not saying he’s an ace, but since this team needs 3 starters for 2007, it might be nice if one of them could be making close to the minimum salary, even if he’s a #4 or #5. That would be a big improvement over paying Pineiro over $12 million to suck the last two years, now wouldn’t it?

    In another M’s related topic, I’m hearing rumblings that Hargrove may be gone by Tuesday. That’s got me so excited, I’m not sure I’ll get much sleep tonight.

  64. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:52 am

    Nice work with the Hargrove rumor, JW. I’d be mildly surprised if it happened. But he does deserve to be canned for the unprecedented slide from contention to dregs.

  65. Karen on August 21st, 2006 1:31 am

    Art Thiel mentioned in his column that now Jamie Moyer will be slogging around for 6 weeks with ANOTHER sub-.500 team, the Phillies.

    Yeah, but they’re just ONE game under .500, and only 2-1/2 games behind the WC leader, Cincinnati (which team is hanging on to that position by the skin of its teeth). That has to be more exciting than the kind of baseball he’s seen this year as a Mariner pitcher. I’ll bet he’s wanted to throttle Hargrove as much as some of us have wanted to.

    Ironic that Moyer’s first game as a Philly will be against his first team, the Cubs…

  66. AK1984 on August 21st, 2006 1:47 am

    Re. #60:

    At the end of the season, GM Bill Bavasi should do the following things:

    Designate Cha Seung Baek, Renee Cortez, Francisco Cruceta, Rene Rivera, Greg Dobbs, Mike Morse, and T.J. Bohn for assignment.

    Pick up the team option for Eduardo Perez ($2,000,000).

    Offer arbitration to Rafael Soriano, J.J. Putz, Ben Broussard, and Chris Snelling.

    Tender contracts to Yorman Bazardo, Travis Blackley, Travis Chick, Emiliano Fruto, Sean Green, Felix Hernandez, Jon Huber, Cesar Jimenez, Bobby Livingston, Mark Lowe, Eric O’Flaherty, Jake Woods, Jose Lopez, Wladimir Balentien, Adam Jones, and Jeremy Reed.

    Trade Jarrod Washburn and Richie Sexson to the San Francisco Giants for Jason Ellison and Todd Linden.

    Acquire the exclusive negotiating rights to Daisuke Matsuzaka ($25 million); sign Matsuzaka to a six-year, $75 contract (2007: $10,000,000 million; 2008: $11,000,000 million; 2009: $12,000,000 million; 2010: $13,000,000 million; 2011: $14,000,000; 2012: $15,000,000).

    Sign Jason Schmidt to a four-year, $44 million contract (2007: $10,000,000 million; 2008: $10,500,000 million; 2009: $11,500,000 million; 2010: $12,000,000 million).

    Sign Adam Eaton to a three-year, $15 million contract (2007: $4,000,000; 2008: $5,000,000; 2009: $6,000,000).

    Sign Ted Lilly to a three-year, $15 million contract (2007: $4,000,000; 2008: $5,000,000; 2009: $6,000,000).

    Sign Paul Bako to a one-year, $500,000 contract.

    Sign Craig Counsell to a one-year, $750,000 million contract.

    2007 SEATTLE MARINERS
    COACHES
    Field Manager: Dan Rohn
    Bench Coach: Dave Brundage
    Hitting Coach: Terry Pollreisz
    First Base Coach: Henry Cotto
    Third Base Coach: Gary Thurman
    Pitching Coach: Rafael Chaves
    Bullpen Coach: Jim Slaton
    ROTATION
    Starting Pitcher: Daisuke Matsuzaka
    Starting Pitcher: Felix Hernandez
    Starting Pitcher: Jason Schmidt
    Starting Pitcher: Adam Eaton
    Starting Pitcher: Ted Lilly
    BULLPEN
    Lefty Specialist: Eric O’Flaherty
    Long Reliever: Mark Lowe
    Middle Reliever: Jake Woods
    Setup Man: Rafael Soriano
    Setup Man: George Sherrill
    Closer: J.J. Putz
    LINEUP
    Right Fielder: Ichiro Suzuki
    Second Baseman: Jose Lopez
    First Baseman: Ben Broussard
    Third Baseman: Adrian Beltre
    Designated Hitter: Raul Ibanez
    Catcher: Kenji Johjima
    Left Fielder: Chris Snelling
    Shortstop: Yuniesky Betancourt
    Center Fielder: Jeremy Reed
    BENCH
    Catcher: Paul Bako
    First Baseman: Eduardo Perez
    Infielder: Craig Counsell
    Outfielder: Jason Ellison
    Designated Hitter: Todd Linden

  67. W00t4thplace on August 21st, 2006 1:56 am

    I like the boldness there. I have also thought the M’s should sign Adam Eaton to go with Matsuzaka, The only difference I would do is have our best farm-hand pitcher win the #5 spot, or else maybe take a shot at signing Kerry Wood or Vicente Padilla depending upon how cheap they will come, (if we traded Sexson we would probably have the money.)

  68. AK1984 on August 21st, 2006 1:57 am

    Re. #62:

    I thank you for the information.

    Re. #63:

    I’ll admit that I’m an idiot.

    Anyway, Travis Blackley has more of a future as a starter while Jake Woods has more of a future as a middle reliever, Travis Chick deserves a look as a middle reliever, Wladimir Balentien can be platooned with Raul Ibanez in left field, and both Oswaldo Navarro and T.J. Bohn are warm bodies who can sit on the bench and be used as defensive replacements.

    Balentien, a la Ryan Howard before him, gets a lot of flack for his poor strikeout to walk ratio in the minor leagues; however, his above-average power more than compensates that.

    Lastly, let me reiterate that I’m an idiot.

  69. thehiddentrack on August 21st, 2006 3:10 am

    No…it just seems like you live in a fantasy land.

  70. pinball1973 on August 21st, 2006 3:32 am

    Is it? It’s no wildre a fantasy than the nightmare we’re still not out of yet.

  71. Typical Idiot Fan on August 21st, 2006 3:48 am

    Is it? It’s no wildre a fantasy than the nightmare we’re still not out of yet.

    Uh…

    Trade Jarrod Washburn and Richie Sexson to the San Francisco Giants for Jason Ellison and Todd Linden.

    Oh Good Lord.

    Sign Jason Schmidt to a four-year, $44 million contract (2007: $10,000,000 million; 2008: $10,500,000 million; 2009: $11,500,000 million; 2010: $12,000,000 million).

    Just as an aside, you do realize that by the end of that contract, Schmidt will be 37, right?

    Sign Adam Eaton to a three-year, $15 million contract (2007: $4,000,000; 2008: $5,000,000; 2009: $6,000,000).

    Despite his injury problems, I doubt Adam Eaton comes that cheap. Besides, someone that injury prone shouldn’t be anywhere near our ballclub.

    Sign Ted Lilly to a three-year, $15 million contract (2007: $4,000,000; 2008: $5,000,000; 2009: $6,000,000).

    Am I the only person on the planet who doesn’t like Ted Lilly? Someone tell me the difference between him and Gil Meche and why we should pay to have him on our club when we could find someone in our own system to pitch that bad for less?

    Sign Paul Bako to a one-year, $500,000 contract.

    A career .239 / .312 / .326 hitter? Our own organization is full of backup catchers who can hit just as bad as that for less.

    Sign Craig Counsell to a one-year, $750,000 million contract.

    One funky batting stance brings all the boys to the yard…

  72. Paul B on August 21st, 2006 4:01 am

    Coming into this season, I thought the M’s had the best bench they have had in recent memory.

    That was negated early on by Hargrove, which is very likely to be a major reason for the recent collapse (as well as previous late season woes for Hargrove-managed teams).

    At the start of the season, I thought this was a .500 ballclub. I still think it would have been, with a different manager.

    Also, if the Ichiro in Center thing was just a one time deal because Bloomquist was hurt, I will be very disappointed.

  73. Josh on August 21st, 2006 4:42 am

    We have plenty of guys in the system to compete for a fifth spot.

    Like Jarrod Washburn?

  74. Josh on August 21st, 2006 4:58 am

    Trade Jarrod Washburn and Richie Sexson to the San Francisco Giants for Jason Ellison and Todd Linden.

    Are you adding in all revenue from Clover Park Hot Dog sales throughout the remainder of their contracts?

    Acquire the exclusive negotiating rights to Daisuke Matsuzaka ($25 million); sign Matsuzaka to a six-year, $75 contract (2007: $10,000,000 million; 2008: $11,000,000 million; 2009: $12,000,000 million; 2010: $13,000,000 million; 2011: $14,000,000; 2012: $15,000,000).

    To be honest, I don’t consider that I know enough to think of the proper annual salary. Six years, though, is too much. He would not be eligible for free agency anyway, so why lock in such a long contract with such large figures? If he demands six years, then you don’t need to take him. If he really wants to start pitching here next year instead of the year after, he’ll start with four.

    Sign Jason Schmidt to a four-year, $44 million contract (2007: $10,000,000 million; 2008: $10,500,000 million; 2009: $11,500,000 million; 2010: $12,000,000 million).

    Less per annum, and less years. If not, don’t bite.

    Sign Adam Eaton to a three-year, $15 million contract (2007: $4,000,000; 2008: $5,000,000; 2009: $6,000,000).

    Adam Eaton is not a good pitcher. He will likely get more than that, and he’s not worth half of it.

    Sign Ted Lilly to a three-year, $15 million contract (2007: $4,000,000; 2008: $5,000,000; 2009: $6,000,000).

    I do not want this man on my ballclub.

    Sign Paul Bako to a one-year, $500,000 contract.

    Why?

    Sign Craig Counsell to a one-year, $750,000 million contract.

    ‘Cause it’s impossible to go from WFB to replacement-level talent?

    Long Reliever: Mark Lowe

    Please don’t make me weep.

  75. Josh on August 21st, 2006 5:12 am

    I’d also like to add that those free agent pitching acquisitions make for one hell of a back-loaded salary clog. $35.5M + whatever The King makes in 2009 is a lot to pay for our starting rotation that, overall, would be slightly to somewhat above average. Then you still have two of their contracts that will be continually growing after 2009. It’s scary, really.

  76. msb on August 21st, 2006 6:53 am

    #46– poor Jimmy, he has tried to quit smoking so many times… and TK is a chaw guy. As for managaging, it is so hard to know. He claims (again as of spring) that he isn’t interested in managing again, but rumors still rumble that he would take the Cubs job if offered…

  77. chris white on August 21st, 2006 8:25 am

    Did someone say we had a good bench to start the year?Willie,Morse ,Quirouz and Rivera ?That is one of the weakest benches that the mariners have had in there history.So no Bavasai did not give hargrove a good bench to start the year.#21 Bavasai gave them a serviceable club at the start of the year..i dont see it this bench .Reed in cf and Carl the dh?Same staf except he paid 9 million for a below 500 pitcher so no he didnt give them a good team.Yes i agree hargrove must go but it wont change until they get someone in the gm chair who knows what players are and not the crap he keeps spending money on.

  78. Death On A Pale Horse on August 21st, 2006 8:42 am

    Aprt from the fact that the bench was Petagine, Lawton, Borchard, Bloomquist and Quiroz, and that that was actually pretty good, #77 is completely accurate. And so nicely phrased!

  79. leetinsleyfanclub on August 21st, 2006 9:11 am

    Chris, I don’t know what’s harder – watching this team implode or trying to read your rambling posts. If you want anyone to give any consideration to your thoughts, please try to use correct spelling and punctuation.

  80. davepaisley on August 21st, 2006 9:12 am

    And let’s not mention the fact that Dudley managed to get the bench down to 3 guys of late, what with the 13 man pitching staff (because when you start using pitchers you can’t just stop at one… per inning.)

  81. pdb on August 21st, 2006 9:16 am

    So no Bavasai did not…

    (head asplodes)

    Dude. Come ON. It’s BAVASI. I’ll ignore the rest of the mistakes, but you’re KILLING ME with that. BAVASI. It’s really, really, not that hard. Three syllables, six letters, Simple.

    Do yourself a favor and proofread before posting – even if your points are valid they’re hard to follow at best, incoherent at worst.

    BAVASI.

  82. Safeco Hobo on August 21st, 2006 9:30 am

    Doing our best to move past the incoherent ramblings of #77…

    The subtle rumblings of “Fire Hargrove” have now hit the mainstream, and i think everyone agrees he is gone come October. What i worry about is the knee jerk reaction to get rid of Bavasai….um i mean Bavasi. I can’t appreciate his mid level signings like Carl, or Spezio and i won’t falt him for the huge signings of Sexson and Beltre (look what he had to choose from during that FA market). I think he has done an decent job with his trades. He came into a system with ZERO pitching in the farm system. You look at these trades and the drafts and you can see where he is trying to take the franchise.

    I worry if Bavasi is canned it will take the “rebuilding” phase back a season or two. I’m still not 100% sure he can get things turned around in the system, but i have yet to see any major blunders that should cost him his job. I say fire Hargrove, bring in a manager who can work with a young free swinging team, and have a good come-to-jesus meeting with Bavasi and let him know you got one more year to get above .500.

  83. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 9:44 am

    At least we let the Angels sweep us too. It’s only fair that we let the Angels keep pace with the A’s since we’ve nearly given the AL West title to the A’s. We’re nothing if not fair here in Seattle.

  84. gwangung on August 21st, 2006 9:46 am

    Bavasi can be fairly critiqued on his FA signings and farm system dealings (uninspired to fair on the former and pretty decent on the latter).

    Don’t think he can be fairly criticized on the late season tail spin, given that Hargrove teams have gone through this twice before (not including last year, when the team was so bad that you couldn’t tell if it WAS in a tailspin or not….)

  85. atait on August 21st, 2006 9:53 am

    Well, since we are talking about prospective plans for the offseason, here’s mine:

    1. Fire Hargrove (duh!) and go after Joe Girardi, Bud Black, or Glenn Hoffman. Or another young, first-time-to-be manager. SHOOT ME if we even sniff at Dusty Baker or Tom Kelly.

    2. Get Bavasi his walking papers. Then go after Mike Rizzo, currently the Nats’ assistant GM. He’s the guy who built the D-Backs’ incredible system.

    3. Let Pineiro, Meche, Mateo, and Willie walk. They are of no use.

    4. Trade Ichiro and Sexson. Ichiro could bring us an Elbert-Ethier deal from the Dodgers, or perhaps a Milledge-Pelfrey package from the Mets. I know this is a unpopular idea, but I have a strong feeling that Ichiro will not be an M in 2008. Sexson could bring us a decent prospect, but more importantly, we’d have extra money on hand.

    5. Pursue Matsuzaka and Vincente Padilla. Both are on the right side of 30. While we don’t know exactly how Matsuzaka will fare in the bigs, he’s probably worth the gamble. And Padilla’s numbers are better than average, even in the AL, pitching in Arlington. His FIP and xFIP are better than Verlander’s or E. Santana’s, for example. Plus, he’ll come cheaper than Schmidt or Zito.

    6. Pursue a multi-year deal with Carlos Lee (and make him a 1B) or go after short deals for Jim Edmonds or Sheffield (making them DH/1B types). My plan necessarily diminishes our offensive output, even if it is Ichiro and Sexson. Putting Snelling in RF will help, and getting a big FA bat will make up most of the difference. Keep in mind, that I’m looking to 2008 as the year when we really make an impact.

    I’ll spare detailing the minor roster moves, such as the sixth and seventh guys in the BP, or the 24th and 25th men of the bench.

    But if we can get two young studs for Ichiro, get rid of Sexson’s contract, and use that money on SP, we’ll be okay in 2007 and ready to contend in 2008.

  86. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 9:54 am

    66-
    You heard it here first…

    2007 SEATTLE MARINERS
    COACHES
    Field Manager: Mel Stottlemyre
    Bench Coach: Larry Bowa
    Hitting Coach: Edgar Martinez
    First Base Coach: Henry Cotto
    Third Base Coach: Gary Thurman
    Pitching Coach: Rafael Chaves (Moyer?)
    Bullpen Coach: Jim Slaton
    ROTATION
    Starting Pitcher: Joel Piñeiro
    Starting Pitcher: Felix Hernandez
    Starting Pitcher: Jason Schmidt
    Starting Pitcher: Adam Eaton
    Starting Pitcher: Gil Meche
    BULLPEN
    Lefty Specialist: Eric O’Flaherty
    Long Reliever: Jake Woods
    Middle Reliever: Bobby Livingston
    Setup Man: Rafael Soriano
    Setup Man: Mark Lowe
    Closer: J.J. Putz
    LINEUP
    Center Fielder: Ichiro Suzuki
    Second Baseman: Jose Lopez
    First Baseman: Richie Sexon
    Third Baseman: Adrian Beltre
    Designated Hitter: Raul Ibañez
    Catcher: Kenji Johjima
    Right Fielder: Chris DOYLE Snelling
    Shortstop: Yuniesky Betancourt
    Left Fielder: Jeremy Reed
    BENCH
    Catcher: Jeff Clement
    First Baseman: Ben Broussard
    Infielder: The Ignitor WFB
    Outfielder: Adam Jones
    Designated Hitter: Petagine

    BROADCAST TEAM
    Brett Boone (Minus one Ron Fairly)
    Dave Niehaus (Legend)
    Dave Valle (Minus Dave Henderson – who is an Oakland homer and may be tipping them)
    Rick Rizz

    And the Mariners bring back Jay Buhner for a few games to spell Brett & Dave and make those nights Buhner & Ibañez buzz nights…

    And possibly bundle Nageotte, Rivera, & Baek for another DH, CF, or SP. Vernon Wells sounds really great right about now.

  87. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 9:58 am

    Or Sexon for Wells and use the two headed Cleveland DH as 1B/DH

  88. MarinerDan on August 21st, 2006 9:59 am

    Nageotte, Rivera & Baek for Vernon Wells? Are you serious? Time to go back on the meds.

  89. leetinsleyfanclub on August 21st, 2006 9:59 am

    I’m afraid Bavasi is going to be canned. I just think that Lincoln and Armstrong are going to make a statement after what will likely be a third straight 90 loss season under Bavasi. I don’t think the typical M’s fan (the type the organization targets in their marketing campaigns) is going to be able to see the upside we talk about with Bavasi, and Lincoln and Armstrong will no longer feel they can sell Bavasi as an asset.

  90. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 10:00 am

    I want to determine whose pitching staff is better, but all I have is ERA. I’d like to get ERA+ (adjusted for park, etc.)

    Oak 4.11
    Ana 4.15
    Sea 4.51
    Tex 4.68

    I predict that ERA+ would show that the M’s have the worst pitching in the division. Is that right?

  91. MarinerDan on August 21st, 2006 10:05 am

    I wouldn’t feel that bad if Bavasi was canned if I had any confidence that the Mariner brass would find a good replacement. What I fear is the Bill B. is canned and they bring in some retread that will be even worse.

  92. gwangung on August 21st, 2006 10:07 am

    I’m afraid Bavasi is going to be canned. I just think that Lincoln and Armstrong are going to make a statement after what will likely be a third straight 90 loss season under Bavasi. I don’t think the typical M’s fan (the type the organization targets in their marketing campaigns) is going to be able to see the upside we talk about with Bavasi, and Lincoln and Armstrong will no longer feel they can sell Bavasi as an asset.

    I’m OK with that, though I think it’s a mistake. Bavasi has some pluses going for him, but they’re not big enough to be overwhelming material to stave off the minuses.

    (And the Hargrove hiring may or may not be attributed to him, given that it felt to me more like a compromise candidate agreed to with the higher ups).

  93. gwangung on August 21st, 2006 10:09 am

    I wouldn’t feel that bad if Bavasi was canned if I had any confidence that the Mariner brass would find a good replacement. What I fear is the Bill B. is canned and they bring in some retread that will be even worse.

    There’s that, too. Don’t have any confidence in either Lincoln or Armstrong given what I know about their behavior concerning personnel in past years.

  94. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 10:13 am

    Park factors per BB ref:

    Oak – 103/103. A slight hitter’s park?
    Sea – 99/99 Neutral.
    Ana – 96/96 A slight pitcher’s park?
    Tex – 104/103 Hitter’s park.

    These park factors surprise me. Are these accurate?

    If they are accurate, then we need pitching.

    Lilly, LHP, would neutralize the advantage LHB have in Safeco.

    Age 29, Lilly’s ERA+ is 97 and WHIP is 1.37
    Moyer’s career ERA+ is 107; WHIP is 1.31

    I’m just sayin’

  95. Knuckles Buchanan on August 21st, 2006 10:16 am

    Padilla? Seriously? Sigh.

    Rohn has served his time and deserves a shot. No other candidates need be interviewed.

  96. atait on August 21st, 2006 10:19 am

    Absolutely Padilla. Or would you prefer to spend at least 30% more money on Jason Schmidt?

  97. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 10:22 am

    What no Stottlemyre opinions?

  98. MarinerDan on August 21st, 2006 10:22 am

    I agree on Padilla. I like him and think he would be a (relatively) cheap and effective alternative to (a) large payments to Schmidt or (b) continuing to trot out Meche/Pineiro/Moyer (if he is brought back).

  99. Jon Wells on August 21st, 2006 10:25 am

    95 No other candidates need to be interviewed? When I read that, I thought that the part before it surely said that Joe Torre had suddenly become available… Sure, Rohn deserves a shot and should have been made interim mgr. months ago, but if you’re hiring the next manager, you don’t interview just one guy, esp. when that guy has no Major League experience (and you’ll also run afoul of Bud Selig’s edict that teams interview minorities for all managerial openings :-) Just think, the M’s will be able to interview Edgar for years as their “minority candidate” for mgr.

  100. unkrusty on August 21st, 2006 10:26 am

    …but i have yet to see any major blunders that should cost him his job…

    Well, I don’t think it should cost him his job, but Washburn was a major blunder.

  101. Safeco Hobo on August 21st, 2006 10:30 am

    My gut reaction of Padilla and Lilly – is to stay away. Padilla is a certified Nut-job, who shows flashes of dominance, but always settles back to the norm. Lilly has also shown dominance but always seems to find that month that keeps him from being anything other than a #4-5 starter.

    This year’s FA pitching market is starting to look like last year’s. You’ll have your two top $ guys (Zito and Schmidt), a few second teir guys (Padilla, Lilly, and Eaton), then a bunch of retreads (Meche, Pineiro, and Ponson). Just a reminder that even the second teir guys are still going to demand $7-9 a year. So to think the M’s can go get a Schmidt and a Eaton is just a pipe dream.

  102. Dave on August 21st, 2006 10:31 am

    Worst. Thread. Ever.

    Consider this your guys mulligan – you guys don’t get to do this again. Get all your crazy ridiculous proposals out of the way now. Next time, they get deleted.

  103. atait on August 21st, 2006 10:34 am

    Take our business elsewhere? Fine. Heaven forbid we use the “Comments” section to “comment”.

  104. Dave on August 21st, 2006 10:36 am

    This isn’t a message board. You don’t get to create ridiculous discussions and drive the site’s content with whatever is on your mind at the moment. There are other places where you can do that – USSM is not one of those places.

  105. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 10:39 am

    Yikes. Dave, you’ve shown again why you no longer consider yourself “part of the sabermetric community.”

  106. DoesntCompute on August 21st, 2006 10:43 am

    Worst thread ever? What about that one game thread that even made Derek give up? I didn’t think we would ever top that. A most impressive feat really.

  107. Knuckles Buchanan on August 21st, 2006 10:44 am

    Jon Wells: He deserves a shot. That’s all I’m saying. And of course you are correct about everything else. I was speaking metaphorically, if such a thing is possible.

    On a more on topic note, yay Doyle.

  108. Joel on August 21st, 2006 10:44 am

    Thanks Dave, that was needed.

    On to my question,

    Where does Jeremy Reed fit into the M’s plans moving forward? If Doyle (hopefully) gets out often this year and next, and the DH platoon stays the way it is, does Reed (once healthy) became a backup to Raul/Snelling/Ichiro?

  109. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 10:47 am

    Between Padilla and Piñeiro, Piñeiro. I know, I know, I KNOW. You are all down on Piñeiro. But let’s be real… pitching is thin and it is possible he’s just having a down year. For a long time this year none of our pitchers got decent run support.

    Between Meche and Lilly, that’s easy… Meche, just based on stuff and upside.

    I would also bring back Washburn. With run support this year he’s easily a solid #3 pitcher.

    So, 1) Felix, 2) Schmidt, 3) Washburn, 4) Meche, 5) Piñeiro or call-up. I think you’d have a solid rotation. Just let Piñeiro earn his stripes again. And with a Stottlemyre as the manager… Pitchers will tend to do better. They always do.

  110. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 10:50 am

    It’s okay to get arrested for drunken driving if you’re a Northwest native. Otherwise you obviously don’t have the make-up to be a true Mariner.

  111. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 10:51 am

    LOL…. -110

  112. pdb on August 21st, 2006 10:52 am

    Jon Wells: He deserves a shot. That’s all I’m saying.

    That’s it! Wells for #5 starter! He could do it – he wouldn’t be worse than Gil Meche, for sure…. :-)

  113. dw on August 21st, 2006 10:53 am

    Consider this your guys mulligan – you guys don’t get to do this again. Get all your crazy ridiculous proposals out of the way now. Next time, they get deleted.

    OK, I’ll take you up on that.

    1. Trade Richie Sexson and Jeremy Reed to Chicago for Phil Nevin, Angel Pagan, and Sean Marshall. Nevin platoons with Ibanez and Benuardo. Rauphibenuardo. Oh, and we save a few million. Marshall isn’t particularly good, but he’s cheaper filler than Meche would be.

    2. If Matsuzaka is posted, sign him, obviously. If he isn’t, sign Schmidt to a 4/$40M type deal, then sign Ted Lilly to a Everett-type contract (1+1/$3M per). Figure the #5 starter spot will be a year of Mariner Idol, with Baek and Cruceta showing if they can pitch in the majors.

    3. Fire Hargrove. Hire anyone not named Buddy Bell or Dusty Baker or Don Baylor.

    4. And that’s about it. Really. Figure you’re aiming for contending in 2008 and 2007 is just a year’s worth of pitching and hitting auditions. Suckquist stays another year, but he’s lineup filler, and he’s not blocking anyone.

    5. Fire Bavasi at the end of 2007 if this team isn’t at 80 wins. Replace him with someone who can maintain the minor league system and has a better grasp on free agent dollars.

    6. 2008 = Profit!

    7. Of course, if it were me, I’d can Bavasi and hire Cam Bonifay, just to enjoy the tortured screams that would come from Eponymous Coward and others out to hang Bavasi for causing all the wars in the world.

    Why don’t you take it up with the guys who find my overwhelming pessimism kinda annoying, decide which criticism to go with, and then get back to me?

    Can we let the Secret Cabal That Runs USSM do it for us? Because I really hate day-long meetings, especially when the “Dave is too negative” people are handling the catering. Vienna sausages on toothpicks do not a business lunch make.

  114. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 10:56 am

    dw,

    Where is Sexson going to play? The Cubs have Lee at first already.

  115. Jon Wells on August 21st, 2006 10:58 am

    #112 No, I don’t see me as a candidate for next year’s rotation or the bullpen. My “fastball” comes in at 58. I did pitch a scoreless inning at Mariners Fantasy Camp last year, but the level of competition was way below Rookie League…

  116. Steve T on August 21st, 2006 11:05 am

    $750 billion dollars (“750,000 million”) seems like kind of a lot for a year of Craig Counsell, considering it’s probably more than the combined salaries of every MLB player ever.

  117. JMHawkins on August 21st, 2006 11:10 am

    The sooner they fire Hargrove the better. He should go today, but so long as he isn’t still around next year, I’m done worrying about him.

    On to the ’07 pitching staff.

    Carrying over from this year, we have Felix and Washburn. I know some folks want to trade Washburn, but that strikes me as counterproductive, since we already need too many Starting Pitchers.

    We need three, and the FA market is not going to be very deep. We probably need to fill at least one spot internally and ought to be ready to fill two.
    The in-house options would seem to be:

    Woods
    Baek
    Cruceta
    Nageotte
    Livingston
    Blackley
    Barzardo
    Dorman
    Feierabend

    I’m not sure Dorman and Feierabend belong on that list. Dorman because he’s too old and Feierabend because he’s too young. But the other names aren’t terribly inspiring.

    Nageotte seems kaput, as USSM noted recently. Livingston isn’t striking people out at AAA. Barzardo isn’t striking them out at AA.

    Woods and Baek should toss 40 or so innings of ML Starting ball this season, so we’ll get a look, but that’s still small sample size, and Baek in particular may benefit from the “never seen this guy’s stuff” effect.

    Cruceta is mowing ‘em down in AAA, but also walking a lot. Dorman has a respectable K rate, but he’s also walking 5.5 per nine in AAA, which is pretty bad control for a 27 year old. Any reason to believe Dorman will be a stop-gap option in ’07?

    What about Feierabend? Dave has his ETA as ’08, but stock is rising. With Bavasi’s push-em philosophy, could we have two 21-year olds in the rotation next year?

  118. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 11:13 am

    Blackley is with the Whitesox…

  119. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 11:14 am

    Sorry…delete 118.

  120. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 11:15 am

    That’s Thornton… heh

  121. daveblev on August 21st, 2006 11:15 am

    Ok here’s what to do:

    Trade all these inane proposal comments on this thread for a Mariners press conference announcing the firing of Hargrove and hiring of Dan Rohn. For the absurd minded: trade The Ignitor for lower beer prices at Safeco.

  122. daveblev on August 21st, 2006 11:17 am

    Nice Doyle graphic…any chance next time they can get WFB put on the screen.

  123. frenchonion on August 21st, 2006 11:19 am

    I thought this was interesting from Rob Neyer today:

    “Speaking of Ichiro Suzuki, he’s a good object lesson in maintaining the courage of one’s convictions. Ichiro got off to a rough start this season. In the middle of May, when he was batting .287, I told somebody that this was essentially what Ichiro was: a .300 hitter. Of course, then he went on a tear and lifted his average to .367 in the span of one month, and at some point I found that same somebody and sheepishly admitted that maybe I’d been wrong about Ichiro after all.

    Except I wasn’t. Now he’s at .324 and (worse) whatever power he once had seems to have disappeared. There’s been some talk, unfounded perhaps, that Ichiro has mentioned the possibility of going back to Japan to finish his career. Well, he’s not getting any younger, and if he wants to win another batting title it’s probably not going to happen on this side of the Pacific. Because he really is just a .300 (singles) hitter, give or take 20 points. “

  124. chris white on August 21st, 2006 11:22 am

    #100 The thre guys who he should have known well Beltre,Washburn and Spiesio all from the angels and dodgers both clubs he worked with and all three have not played any where worth the money he gave them.Beltre hitting 24 extra homruns in his free agent year is my big question??

  125. JMHawkins on August 21st, 2006 11:25 am

    Oh, BTW, since Dave is unhappy with the thread, I’ll make a lame attempt at connecting my random rotation post to the “best sweep ever” topic.

    Putting Baek and Woods in the rotation for the rest of the year is important, since we have huge gaps to fill in next year’s rotation and need to do some pre-screening. We’re probably not going to fill it completely with FA signings, and certainly not going to fill it with quality FA signings, so we need to look at the farm talent. The Front Office gets kudos for that, though I don’t know if Woods is the guy to be looking at. He is a lefty, and we should probably fill one of those three slots with a LHP. Of course, it could be a FA (Zito?). Regardless, better than continuing to trot Pineiro out into a situation that does no one any good.

    Oh, does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Feierabend? Fear-a-bend? Fire-bend? Junieski-bend?

  126. Mat on August 21st, 2006 11:27 am

    Dave,

    It’s awfully tough to draw much of a conclusion from 10 PA, but is this enough for you to think that Doyle’s out of his mental slump?

  127. Evan on August 21st, 2006 11:29 am

    Doyle’s mental slump may well have had to do with him being in Tacoma, or being on the DL. As soon as he’s in Seattle, no slump.

  128. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 11:30 am

    Beltre has been discussed elsewhere Chris. He’s fine if you’re expectations are reasonable.

    Pitching – Our minor leaguers are the best shot in the present and the future. The best course is to stockpile young arms. Bavasi has a good plan going in this area and giving him time for results is fair.

  129. CecilFielderRules on August 21st, 2006 11:31 am

    This isn’t a response to any specific post- but this IS one the worst threads ever (though #106 brings up a good point).

    There are a lot of us who rarely post, but come to this sight for insightful (and sometimes humorous) analysis and comments. The reason this site has value – aside form the guys running it – is that the content is directed and has guidelines. It’s nice when readers have something to contribute to the discussions, especially when they have opposing opinions. But it’s not a message board, and it shouldn’t be.

    I’m guessing (and I bet the USSM guys know the exact figure) that people who post regularly represent about 5% or less of the total visitors, and the vast majority just read the posts. Keeping the threads readable adds a ton of value to the site. Filling this thread with page-long comments detailing every conceivable trade, contract, and roster scenario for next year is both unreadable and of little value. Perhaps the site could use a dedicated OT, unmoderated thread where readers could post and discuss anything they want.

    I suppose that, in complaining about this thread, I just contributed a little to its crappiness. But it can’t get much worse…

  130. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 11:39 am

    Dave,

    Are you upset at us or the state of the ball club? I think what people are saying here is that people are just generally upset at the “state of the Mariners”. I think some of us are just reacting to an 0-11 road trip and the horibble (i lost track) record against the AL west. I have to agree with your comments above… it does give us some “hope” that the Mariners made some positive moves towards their future.

  131. Dave on August 21st, 2006 11:43 am

    I’m not upset at you guys or the ballclub. Part of my job as one of the guys who runs this little corner of the universe, though, is to maintain the quality of discussion so that the site can be enjoyed by posters and readers alike.

    And speculative roster construction threads are awful, awful reading. I know Jerry and AK1984 and some of these other guys love this stuff, but you guys make up about .01% of USSM’s readership base, and the other 99.99% (including me) can’t stand threads like this.

    Like it or not, USSM is a lot more like a college classroom than a sports bar.

  132. eponymous coward on August 21st, 2006 11:46 am

    Of course, if it were me, I’d can Bavasi and hire Cam Bonifay, just to enjoy the tortured screams that would come from Eponymous Coward and others out to hang Bavasi for causing all the wars in the world.

    Hey, if you’re happy with a GM you yourself classify as “average” managing a team with above-average financial resources (for now, until the M’s turn into the current Sonics or 90′s Seahawks after fan burnout), on the grounds that the ownership and senior management will screw it up even worse the next time, more power to you. I’m sure there’s a fair share of fun in watching a team loiter between 75 and 85 wins every year, and hoping for the occasional lucky year in the playoffs. Goodness, that pretty much describes the Mariners in the 1980′s and early 90′s before 1995 (except for the playoffs part), and I was a fan then, and I’m a fan now.

    That’s basically what I see Bavasi doing as a GM- what he did in Anaheim. Given enough bites at the apple, I’m sure we make the playoffs at SOME point (if Bowden can do it and the Cubs can do it every so often, I don’t see why not). If you are cool with your GM not being a net postive or negative with respect to the league, and just riding out the craps table that’s MLB for a hot streak some year… well, OK, then.

    The problem as I see it is that the job of the Mariner GM in the 2006-2007 offseason is to turn a roster with some talented players and strengths, but some definite weaknesses, into a contender through judicious trades and free agent signings. Bill Bavasi has strengths that I recognize,despite your mischaracterization of me as a rabid drooling anti-fanboy (he doesn’t slag people and is well regarded for integrity and being personable, he and Fontaine draft well, the farm system produces for him), but the things the team needs to execute on in the offseason aren’t his strengths. Basically, I expect him to do Jarrod Washburn II, Electric Boogaloo, given the checkbook, and we’ll be saddled with 30 million or so in dead money that’s going to be on the books for a while (when you add up Sexson, Beltre, Washburn and whoever we sign’s contracts and compare them to what we are getting over replacement value).

    But hey, I don’t have all the answers- maybe Bavasi CAN execute better than I think he can. People learn. I do think, though, that a strategy where you’re paying 80-90 million for 80 wins in 2007, which seems to be what you are advocating, as a “wait until 2008″ meme, is something Cam Bonifay could probably execute. Isn’t that what Baltimore’s done for years and years- sign FAs and overpay for a flawed team?

  133. bat guano on August 21st, 2006 11:50 am

    Right on Dave!

  134. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 11:51 am

    So what you’re saying is quit speculating…about possible roster construction period. It does this thread no good. Or only speculate if it’s a genuine possibility and can back it up with some sabermetrics or inside knowledge? And if you haven’t been drinking.

  135. John in L.A. on August 21st, 2006 11:53 am

    “Are you upset at us or the state of the ball club? I think what people are saying here is that people are just generally upset at the “state of the Mariners”.”

    That’s the whole point, in my opinion.

    This topic… this ONE topic… is about the good things happening to the Mariners. A place to discuss silver linings, team epiphanies and optimism.

    To so quickly descend back to the negative, to roster construction/deconstruction, etc. is to render the topic meaningless.

    Doyle makes me so happy, I could cry. Getting to watch his approach at the plate – so different from the rest of the roster – to see his bat speed, his throwing arm, and his enthusiasm is all I need to get me through the rest of the season.

    Another positive for me seems to be that Beltre has not let himself be dragged down with the team… slumping for him lately seems to mean halting progression rather than regression, if that makes sense.

  136. scraps on August 21st, 2006 11:59 am

    Well, I don’t think it should cost him his job, but Washburn was a major blunder.

    Depends how you look at it. On the one hand, it was a bad idea and he’s way overpriced and not what management hoped (and had little reason to hope) he would be; on the other hand he had arguably been the team’s most valuable starting pitcher (the last time I looked at VORP for pitchers he was the number one starter on the team). So they’d've been a lot worse without him.

  137. scraps on August 21st, 2006 12:01 pm

    How does Neyer figure that a .327 average over the course of the year demonstrates Ichiro to be basically a .300 hitter? I swear, he used to be a more rigorous thinker than this.

  138. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:01 pm

    A positive for me is seeing my 2nd.Favorite.Player.Ever. try a new position – a position which he’ll master. And, by excelling at that new position, nearly guarantee that he’ll become a Hall of Famer. Yippee!

    John, thanks for sharing what you like about Doyle. He’ll be good. Is Brian Giles a fair comparison for Doyle?

  139. The Ancient Mariner on August 21st, 2006 12:11 pm

    Hey Dave, if you think AK’s bad here (and he is), you ought to see him on Sonics sites like sonicscentral.com or the RealGM Sonics board — he’s a lot worse on roundball.

    And I do think it’s important to keep an eye on the silver lining here, even amidst the clouds of a truly horrible road trip like this one; honestly, with a little luck (there actually being a couple right guys in this year’s FA pitching class, and Bavasi managing to sign them, a competent manager, plus a trade or two that works out), I for one still think we can squeeze into the postseason in ’07. I don’t know that I’d bet on it, but it’s not an unreasonable hope.

  140. frenchonion on August 21st, 2006 12:14 pm

    I believe that a player has to play 9 years of MLB to be eligible for the HoF. If Ichiro does indeed leave when this contract comes up that’d put him at 7 years. There have been exceptions, but I think they’re all pretty much based around Negro League service.

    Is Oh in the MLB Hall of Fame? I don’t *think* he is, and if Oh isn’t in, does Ichiro belong?

  141. Celadus on August 21st, 2006 12:17 pm

    #105. Oh my god! I thought this was a local-talent humor board. I’m outta here.

  142. Mariner Fan in CO Exile on August 21st, 2006 12:20 pm

    “And speculative roster construction threads are awful, awful reading. I know Jerry and AK1984 and some of these other guys love this stuff, but you guys make up about .01% of USSM’s readership base, and the other 99.99% (including me) can’t stand threads like this.”

    I agree with Dave on this one. It’s usually only fun for the guy wasting time doing it (which I have done before, usually when relevant to the thread and Dave asked about what moves to make at the deadline). It’s sort of like gathering a bunch of menus together and reading them without the prospect of sampling any of the food. Or, probably more accurate, it’s about as exciting as reading the phone book. If Bavasi starts talking about roster construction, I tend to listen more carefully. I don’t often skim threads to get to the Dave or Derek’s comments, but this is one such thread (well only Dave in this case).

  143. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:21 pm

    132 is a well written post. It has insight and makes a positive contribution to this thread.

    Perhaps EC’s best point is about learning. Bavasi will learn and it will serve USSM and its fans to determine if he is learning. How will we know when he has learned a new skill? I propose that we leave costs of contracts out of the evaluation because USSM and its readers don’t have inside information about budgets and financial considerations. Is Won-Loss record the best way to evaluate a GM?

    OTOH, other GM’s in the league will be learning while Bavasi does too. The competition is strong in the AL. Bavasi is lucky because the West has the weakest GM’s in the AL.

  144. scraps on August 21st, 2006 12:23 pm

    I skip roster contruction posts, which are failrly easy to spot, but it’s harder to skip the ensuing responses, which may sometimes be better informed but will still be as fundamentally pointless as the original post.

  145. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:23 pm

    #141. Dave wasn’t intending to be funny. Those are his words.

  146. scraps on August 21st, 2006 12:25 pm

    Grrrr, when I say “post” I mean “comment”.

  147. joealb on August 21st, 2006 12:25 pm

    Griffy Kudzu! This thread would be perfect for Griffy Kudzu! You folks know I live for griffy Kudzu! How about some Piniella Kudzu?

  148. joealb on August 21st, 2006 12:26 pm

    Argh! That would be “Griffey” Kudzu….

  149. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 12:27 pm

    I believe that a player has to play 9 years of MLB to be eligible for the HoF. If Ichiro does indeed leave when this contract comes up that’d put him at 7 years. There have been exceptions, but I think they’re all pretty much based around Negro League service.

    Is Oh in the MLB Hall of Fame? I don’t *think* he is, and if Oh isn’t in, does Ichiro belong?

    I think it’s 10 years.

    Oh is not in the MLB Hall of Fame. As far as I know, the current rules would have to be amended to allow foreign players so that Oh could be voted in.

  150. Jon on August 21st, 2006 12:34 pm

    Here’s more good news: Since the All Star break, the A’s have gone something like 25-11, which means they have haven’t strayed from their (nearly) traditional pattern of figuring out they have in the first half, all the while gaining experience, and then putting it together for the second half.

    How is that good news? I’m not really sure, but that’s the best I could do to fit it into this topic.

    I recall some folks trying to convince others earlier this year that the A’s don’t have enough offense to turn it on again this year. Yet the A’s have somehow done it, despite our best wishful thinking. So not only are the they just plain more fun to watch than the M’s yet again, the A’s are in there contending for a playoff spot while trying, on the fly, to replace established talent with younger players (sprinkled again with a few warmed-over free agents). All on a veritable shoestring budget.

    So even if we try to find the silver lining in the current losing streak, how is it possible to (rationally) believe the M’s can contend in the West in the foreseeable future? The best I can do is hope I will feel better about losing, because at least we’ll be losing while trying to get better for later. In the meantime, though, I’ll have to watch the A’s do both (and enjoy themselves, too).

  151. Eleven11 on August 21st, 2006 12:35 pm

    I’m with John in LA, I don’t trust Bavasi with the excess payroll to do anything good. However, I did see a nice outing by Woods yesterday. I hope to see it again. I would like to see the same from Livingston, Green, Baek, etc. History says that they probably are not a starting group but perhaps we can get lucky with one, two or three of them. Every kid that shows he can start is to our benefit. It was cool to see Snelling show the others that walks can occur and my gawd, his hands are quick! It was cool to see Woods pitch a nice game. It was cool to see Ichiro bounding around CF like he was a kid again, he was laughing a joking with Snelling and Ibanez. Let’s have more of that the rest of the way!!!

  152. the other benno on August 21st, 2006 12:55 pm

    Oh can’t be in the MLB Hall of Fame, because he never played in MLB. It’s not a ‘baseball hall of fame’ in the sense of the game as a whole, but just for US Major League Baseball.

  153. frenchonion on August 21st, 2006 1:00 pm

    -152

    Maybe I’m missing something…didn’t the MLB Hall of Fame just induct about 7 Negro Leaguers and a female Negro League executive?

    Satchel Paige is in the HoF without having played 10 years in the Majors.

  154. tgf on August 21st, 2006 1:02 pm

    I recall some folks trying to convince others earlier this year that the A’s don’t have enough offense to turn it on again this year. Yet the A’s have somehow done it, despite our best wishful thinking. So not only are the they just plain more fun to watch than the M’s yet again, the A’s are in there contending for a playoff spot

    The pythagorean W-L record for the A’s is 64-60. The A’s are a pretty decent team whose record has exceeded expectations due to clutchness, grittiness or, more likely, luck.

  155. pdb on August 21st, 2006 1:07 pm

    153:

    Oh never played in the USA, therefore he’s not eligible to be in the HOF, per rule 3B of the Rules for Election to the Hall:

    B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A)

    Don’t know when those rules were adopted so I can’t answer the Satchel Paige question, but that’s why Oh’s not in the HOF…

  156. Man From Nantucket on August 21st, 2006 1:11 pm

    While there have been a few positives to take away from recent games, the lack of plate discipline continues to plague this team. It is troubling to watch these guys continually swing at pitches outside the stike zone when ahead in the count. I’m sure opposing pitchers know they don’t have to throw strikes to get these guys out. Is this a product of poor coaching? Players seem to have good things to say about Jeff Pentland, but is he preaching an aggressive approach at the plate to their detriment? I must say it has been a treat watching Doyle’s approach these last few games.

  157. Steve T on August 21st, 2006 1:16 pm

    Satchel Paige is in the Hall of Fame as a Negro Leaguer, not as a major leaguer. The Negro Leagues are a special category. The Japan League is not.

  158. Doc on August 21st, 2006 1:23 pm

    In regards to plate discipline, people have said for years that Edgar would move into the hitting coach position. Has anyone ever heard what his thoughts on the issue are? Are there any thoughts on whether he could effectively communicate his approach?

  159. Safeco Hobo on August 21st, 2006 1:31 pm

    A thread that started out discussing the upside of the most recent sweep ends up discussing Satchel Paige and his Hall of Fame consideration!?!?!? Now i know this thread is lost.

    On topic question: Where should Doyle be hitting in the batting order? I know its only been a weekend, but looking at his plate discipline and OBP i can’t help but to think he would be better served hitting in the 2 spot. I mean you have 3 of the most free swinging hitters on the team hitting 1-2-3. Lopez has really fallen off the table since the All star break. The only downside i would see is hitting Ichiro and Doyle back to back provides two lefties in the top of the order. Looking at both of their splits though, neither appear to struggle that bad against south paws.

  160. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 1:34 pm

    Question: What is the A’s record against the Mariners in the season? Especially during their super run’s in the second half the last couple of years?

  161. Phoenician Todd on August 21st, 2006 1:38 pm

    This season the Mariners are 1-15 against the As, having lost 15 straight.

  162. The Ancient Mariner on August 21st, 2006 1:38 pm

    I expect Doyle will spend a while at the bottom of the order, just to let him get acclimated; if he continues to hit well, then I’d expect him to move into the #2 hole after a few weeks. There’s no real need to push that, I think — just let the kid play and keep the pressure off.

  163. leetinsleyfanclub on August 21st, 2006 1:39 pm

    Doyle is a ton of fun to watch hit. There are certain hitter’s stances that just look good, like the hitter is just absolutely going to crush the ball, and Doyle has one of those. Plus, he has the patience to wait for a good pitch to hit, as Ron Fairly would say. If this guy isn’t given the opportunity to play every day, something is really, really wrong.

  164. Karen on August 21st, 2006 1:43 pm

    The Day After: There’s a hilariously morbid rant thread over at Red Sox Nation post-2006-Boston-Massacre (by the Yanks, if you weren’t paying attention :) ) that’s eerily similar to how most of us feel after our Mariners fell flat on their faces the past week and a half.

    There ARE other fans, of a pretty high profile big-spending team, who are as miserable as we are…

  165. Hawaiian Mariner on August 21st, 2006 1:44 pm

    Why not have Doyle lead off if he continues to maintain his plate discipline. I would have thought having the highest OBP guy on the team leading off would be a good strategy. (Assumes Doyle will have high OBP.) Thoughts?

  166. Steve T on August 21st, 2006 1:47 pm

    but those fans have a recent World Series ring and 100 years of outstanding teams. When was the last time the Red Sox had a season as bad as this year for the M’s, or last year, or the year before? Forty years?

  167. Rain Delay on August 21st, 2006 1:50 pm

    164- Wow..is all I’ve got to say about that..

    That was some entertaining read to say the least…

  168. tgf on August 21st, 2006 1:57 pm

    165- Good idea, but Hargrove wil never, ever do it unless Ichiro gets injured or sits out a game. And even then probably not.

  169. Beniitec on August 21st, 2006 2:00 pm

    15… geez. 6 of those in the second half. 15 of their 70 wins against the Mariners. So the A’s are 2 games over .500 against the rest of MLB. Do the same to the Mariner’s record… M’s are 2 games over .500 against the rest of MLB. Having said that… if the Mariners managerial staff had planned well against their AL west opponents and the players had executed… if only…they’d be right there in the thick of it. Their entire season is done due to their second half record against their AL West counterparts.

  170. hcoguy on August 21st, 2006 2:03 pm

    168- He would hit #2 behind the Ignitor. That way Beltre could be up with a runner on and one out in the first every three innings.

  171. Evan on August 21st, 2006 2:05 pm

    137 – Scraps, Neyer’s biggest blunder there was to define Batting Average as a stat with a ±.020 fluctuation. It’s closer to ±.100. Ichiro can probably be best described as a .340 hitter who, each month, hits .340 ±.100. He doesn’t stray beyond that .240-.440 range.

  172. hub on August 21st, 2006 2:19 pm

    Lots of good moves by the FO lately. However, the fact that these types of moves continue to be put off until 3/4 of the way through the season…depresses me.

  173. leetinsleyfanclub on August 21st, 2006 2:22 pm

    164: Wow. It’s a whole different thing over on the East Coast, isn’t it? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time!

  174. byronebyronian on August 21st, 2006 2:24 pm

    My take on Bavasi is pretty simple. I believe he has to juggle doing what’s right for the future while keeping Chuck and Howard at bay. If you grade him from that viewpoint, he’s done well. I say this because he signed Beltre and Sexson to longterm contracts, albeit expensive ones, and I am quite sure that HAD to take some serious debating with ol’ Howie to get it done. Sure, he’s made mistakes (Washburn) but I think that he HAD to make that move.

    Some put him down for the Choo trade, but last time I checked Choo was starting to come down to earth while Broussard’s been producing. Sure, trading Cabrera for Perez wasn’t the ultimate, but then again, Eduardo is much more of a “leader” (if you buy that stuff) than Carl Everett ever could be AND Eduardo can still produce against the lefties. I was at all 4 Angel games (all great seats looking right into the M’s dugout). I see Eduardo talking to the kids, he’s happy, he’s cheering guys on. Whenever I’d see Carl, he’d sit off by himself looking annoyed by whatever it is that goes on in that head of his.

    So basically, I would not be upset if Bavasi got one more crack here. I feel we can bring a kid with ZERO experience in (Drayton Moore/Theo Epstein style guy) and Linstrong would eat him alive. Let’s see this through. One more year for Bavasi and if he can’t get it together, he should be canned. FIRE Hargrove though…NOW please.

    I am still pissed he didn’t bring in a lefty to pitch to Garrett Anderson yesterday!

  175. frenchonion on August 21st, 2006 2:38 pm

    There’s another reason you don’t want Doyle leading off: Many of Ichirio’s hits are infield hits — he’s hit right around .285 over the last four years in situations where a force play could be in order. (It’s easy to verify this – just check Ichiro’s splits on ESPN.com, you can see the previous 3 years as well.)

  176. bermanator on August 21st, 2006 2:41 pm

    A lot of people are hoping Hargrove gets fired before the end of the season, but I don’t see the positives of that unless a.) the front office knows for sure who they want to manage the team next year and b.) said front office will return intact in 2007.

    What’s the upside to firing him now as opposed to in October?

  177. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 2:47 pm

    Versatile hitter. He can hit anywhere from 2 to 6. Possibly a Trot Nixon, I’m hoping for Don Mattingly.

  178. Jack Howland on August 21st, 2006 2:50 pm

    176 – What’s the upside to firing him now as opposed to in October?

    It shows the players and the fans that the front office recognizes that there is a problem.

  179. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 2:52 pm

    And it removes the problem.

  180. joser on August 21st, 2006 2:57 pm

    When was the last time the Red Sox had a season as bad as this year for the M’s, or last year, or the year before? Forty years?

    Right now the M’s have a .452 winning %, which projects out to a 73-89 record. They might do a little better than that in the end, or maybe not (though that still puts them 4 wins up on last year and 10 up on ’04). The Red Sox went went 73-89 in 1992; they went 78-84 in 1997, 1987, and 1983. Just inside your 40 year window is 1966, when they went 72-90.

    You’re right the BoSox haven’t (recently) had a run of three bad years in a row quite like the M’s ’04-’06, who will be 205-281 (assuming they do win 73 this year); you have to look at those awful pre-’67 Red Sox teams to see three-year runs quite like this. Then again, it’s not hard to find 3 year runs like this in the past of most teams (eg the Yankees went 212-273 in ’89-’91). The M’s certainly have their share — so you could say they have just returned to their roots. Who knows, maybe parachute pants and DeLoreans will be back in fashion soon too.

  181. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 2:58 pm

    If M’s team leaders weren’t so fixated on team leadership, would they sign Bonds this offseason?

    G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
    Bonds 100 272 51 64 16 0 16 51 95 41 3 0 .235 .444 .471 .915
    M’s DH 115 418 48 100 14 0 15 51 36 80 2 5 .239 .302 .380 .682

  182. strong silence on August 21st, 2006 2:59 pm

    Yikes. That is ugly. If I weren’t so tech phobic, I’d know how to fix it.

  183. joser on August 21st, 2006 3:05 pm

    Ichiro is well-suited for leadoff (even if he doesn’t take as many pitches as conventional wisdom would dictate, he does get on). And your leadoff guy is expected to steal bases (or at least be a threat to), a duty I wouldn’t want to hang onto Snelling’s fragile knees (at least not yet). Snelling has some clear power, too, so putting him further down is fine. In fact, I wouldn’t mind seeing Yuni and Lopez hitting ahead of him, as a kind of 1,2,3 at the bottom of the order. Though putting Yuni last, so he breaks up the Snelling-Ichiro lefties and is some speed on the bases ahead of Ichiro would be fine too, I suppose. It’s all Titanic lawn furniture at this point.

    I do like the idea of using this September as an extended Spring Training to try out some of the pitchers from Tacoma. This is one point in favor of getting rid of Hargrove now, if you assume that Rohn would actually take over: it doesn’t really matter what Hargroves sees in the kids, because he won’t be here next year anwyway.

  184. Evan on August 21st, 2006 3:12 pm

    But Ichiro’s always have a reverse platoon split, so he breaks up lefties all by himself. In fact, if surrounding him with lefties makes him face lefty pitching more often, it’s a good idea.

  185. joser on August 21st, 2006 3:13 pm

    Bonds is not coming to Seattle. He just said his preference would be to stay with SF. If his knees make it necessary for him to switch to the AL, I would expect the Angels would be the destination because his family is in SoCal anyway. Oakland would of course be an option from a geographic standpoint but not from an economic one. But if his knees are so bad that DH’ing is his only option, he may just retire. There was a time when the records seemed to matter enough to him that he’d transition to DH just to chase Aaron, but my guess is that his slumping HR rate and all the clouds that have been gathering over his stats and legacy mean he’d rather just walk away from baseball (and I think baseball would rather he walked away, too, rather than deal with the hoopla that will occur should he start closing in on the lifetime HR record — and that might factor into any offer he might get from the Angels).

    Anyway, the M’s DH position is much better than it was before the regrettable detour through Everett.

  186. joser on August 21st, 2006 3:15 pm

    Yeah, I was thinking from the “hide-bound managerial bookthink” point of view. Arrg, Hargrove’s in my head! Get him out! Get him out!

  187. msb on August 21st, 2006 3:24 pm

    #128– and Bavasi said when he brought Beltre in that he was not expecting the numbers put up that year in LA

    #137– as far as I can tell, Neyer has the books and the baby and hangs down in Portland and is just sorta letting the column run itself…

    #156– I would think that plate discipline is hard to teach to major league players, unless maybe you use a cattleprod.

    #158–I think the only people thinking Edgar would become the hitting coach are fans. He says he is happy running the business & playing with the kids. Hitting coach would involve traveling again. I could see him showing up at spring training though, like Jay.

    #176–What’s the upside to firing him now as opposed to in October?

    um, we don’t go insane?

    Can we let the Secret Cabal That Runs USSM do it for us?

    Who controls the British Crown?
    Who keeps the metric system down?
    We do! We do!

    Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
    Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
    We do! We do!

  188. JI on August 21st, 2006 3:34 pm

    To cap off the thread we should discuss further the traffic in Idaho.

  189. phildopip1 on August 21st, 2006 3:46 pm

    Who holds back the electric car?
    Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
    We do! We do!

    187 – nice Simpsons reference. :)

  190. Evan on August 21st, 2006 3:57 pm

    His preference might be to stay with SF, but I don’t see how he could play for an NL team next year.

    I want to see Bonds reach 756 just because I think it will annoy Bud.

  191. joser on August 21st, 2006 4:09 pm

    Alas, that’s the Stone Cutters, not the Bonehead Cutters.

    The tentacles of the USSM Secret Cabal currently seem to reach no further than the graphics department at KSTW. Which is still impressively far, when you think about it.

  192. AK1984 on August 21st, 2006 4:28 pm

    Re. #131:

    Well, Dave, I totally understand your point — besides, with that noted, I now know why I went to a community college rather than a university — as it is, though, each and every person enjoys different things, which is what makes us unique and interesting individuals. Okay, sure, that’s an extremely lame adage; nonetheless, it makes sense to me—there’s no doubt about it!

  193. AK1984 on August 21st, 2006 4:51 pm

    Re. #139:

    I don’t have an account at RealGM. The people who post there, without a shadow of a doubt, are complete and utter idiots. Hell, they make me seem like an omnipotent, omniscient, and ubiquitous deity. If you disagree with those harsh, yet justified criticisms on your factually incorrect comments about me, then you are a doltish imbecile.

    Anyway, with regards to the National Basketball Association (NBA), I’m actually knowledgable about statistical analysis. I’m aware of player efficiency ratings, on-court/off-court +/- numbers, won-lost percentages, effective field-goal percentage, roland ratings, et cetera. Yet, as it concerns Major League Baseball (MLB), I’m not as well-versed as numerous people (e.g., Dave, Derek, et al.); I’ll be the first to admit that.

    In the end, ultimately, I follow the work of John Hollinger, Roland Beech, David Lewin, Dan Rosenbaum, and Kevin Pelton, amongst others, more closely than I do guys like Bill James and his fellow sabermetricians.

  194. Karen on August 21st, 2006 4:59 pm

    I just checked the MLB.com site for the Mariners for any recent news, and no, Hargrove hasn’t been fired yet. What are they waiting for? Don’t tell me the M’s front office is having the typical and usual baseball-executive hesitancy to “eat a contract”. Geez, if the guy’s brain-dead, yank the plug, take him off life support, give him the ol’ Mariner heave-ho into the briny deep…

    (carry over from reading Red Sox rant thread :) )

  195. Brian Rust on August 21st, 2006 5:03 pm

    Fun with statistics:
    If Chris Snelling were to play all 38 games remaining, he’s on a pace to finish with 32 walks, which would likely place him 5th on the team.

  196. dw on August 21st, 2006 5:28 pm

    The tentacles of the USSM Secret Cabal currently seem to reach no further than the graphics department at KSTW. Which is still impressively far, when you think about it.

    Far enough to get any of us a date with Kristen Bell? Nope. Not that powerful enough. For that, I blame Derek.

    Oh, just for the sake of stats, the “Doyle” picture linked in this site has been view 1565 times in the last 27 hours. No, wait, 1566.

  197. msb on August 21st, 2006 5:42 pm

    ok, in a wierd circular thang, Moyer will start for the (hometown) Phillies against the team that drafted him, the Cubs in Wrigley.

  198. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 21st, 2006 5:56 pm

    #197, and in a more odd circular thing, you would note that Jamie’s professional ML debut came when he was a Cub…and they were playing the Phillies.

    #195 and many like him/her: hey, i love Snelling myself, but do the words ‘small sample size’ just not apply to him? honestly, it’s kind of refreshing to see all you folks suspend that, but it is a little, well, inconsistent.

    #179. No, that’s the wrong thinking. One man, even if it IS Mike Hargrove, is not the entire problem. He’s just a piece of it. Too easy to think everything gets fixed if one guy gets canned.

    Dave: thanks, re: roster constructions. Ick.

  199. dnc on August 21st, 2006 6:00 pm

    Is it possible for the Worst. Thread. Ever. to not inlude Corco? Isn’t that oxymoronic?

  200. John in L.A. on August 21st, 2006 6:18 pm

    “#195 and many like him/her: hey, i love Snelling myself, but do the words ’small sample size’ just not apply to him? honestly, it’s kind of refreshing to see all you folks suspend that, but it is a little, well, inconsistent.”

    Who’s doing that? I don’t see anyone seriously projecting or extrapolating from it. Maybe I missed it. I’m sure Brian wasn’t being seriously analytical.

    What isn’t small sample size is his approach at the plate. And his incredible bat speed – such a short, whip-like swing that generates so much more power than it looks like it should.

    The results are small sample, but his approach has been awesome since I first saw it. And it is just the kind of approach this team needs a lot more of, in my opinion.

    “#179. No, that’s the wrong thinking. One man, even if it IS Mike Hargrove, is not the entire problem. He’s just a piece of it. Too easy to think everything gets fixed if one guy gets canned.”

    I’m pretty sure he meant it removed THAT problem. Like antibiotics might cure the problem of infection, but not heal the broken leg.

    On that subject of advantages to firing Hargrove now, I know one that would be signifigant to me:

    I know very little about Rohn, and if he is a frontrunner for the manager job, I would love six weeks to watch him work. See what line-ups he trots out, see how he uses the bullpen.

    See if he starts Bloomquist. I’d really like to know if he’d do that.

    Another reason is to change the atmosphere around the team. Even if they don’t start winning, a new manager may make everything seem less oppressive… and that might help in finishing the season on an up note, rather than dragging off into the inevitable firing… put it behind us now, so we can end the season coming up from that low.

    Just my opinion.

  201. VaBeachMarinersFan on August 21st, 2006 6:35 pm

    I emailed the Mariners asking questions about why Hargrove is still here, why Jones rots on the bench and why Bloomie keeps getting trotted out there (I even included stats and specific examples). Here is the canned reply:

    Dear Benjamin,

    Thanks for your email. We really appreciate hearing from our fans – even if they are angry or disappointed – and we read every email. Your comments regarding Manager Mike Hargrove, Willie Bloomquist, and Adam Jones have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Again, thanks for taking the time to contact us with your opinion – Go Mariners!

    Seattle Mariners Fancare
    hkh

    Is the appropriate department the “TRASH CAN” icon on the desktop? I would assume so.

  202. W00t4thplace on August 21st, 2006 6:46 pm

    Yes, it is the trash can icon.

  203. PositivePaul on August 21st, 2006 6:53 pm

    Heh. I wonder what they’d do if you randomly inserted names. Like, say:

    “Hi!

    I’m so gosh darn tired of eating lima beans. Does Howard Bloomquist eat lima beans? No! So, when are the M’s going to fire Henry Hughes? He’s the worst manager in baseball! I don’t like how he leaves Jon Wells in there for so darn long!”

    Response from Fancare:

    “Dear Paul,

    Thanks for your email. We really appreciate hearing from our fans – even if they are angry or disappointed – and we read every email. Your comments regarding Henry Hughes, Howard Bloomquist, and Jon Wells have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Again, thanks for taking the time to contact us with your opinion – Go Mariners!”

    Yada yada yada…

  204. W00t4thplace on August 21st, 2006 7:01 pm

    Howard Bloomquist could kick the grit out of Willie Bloomquist. Willie is a wussy.

  205. VaBeachMarinersFan on August 21st, 2006 7:08 pm

    203 – Good idea but substitute Al Choholic, Seymour Butz and their ilk. I think I will try that, using of course my co-workers unlocked computer and email.

    It’s good to see some Doyle in the line-up. We have all waited some time for that. I’d definitely like to see some more.

    If they shut down Lowe for the year to protect his arm shouldn’t they shut down Bloomquist to protect his back? Might even be worthwhile to rest it all of next year too…just saying…

  206. SequimRealEstate on August 21st, 2006 7:10 pm

    Yeh!! for the trash can. Who would want to recycle?

  207. IdahoInvader on August 21st, 2006 7:39 pm

    205

    Don’t forget Grover’s other name:

    Stu Pidasso

  208. argh on August 21st, 2006 8:03 pm

    My only criticism here is that Dave has been reluctant to use the only effective management tool available in venues such as this: the Stark Fist of Removal.

    The original post was thoughtful and informative (and even if it wasn’t, it’s his joint) and the first 30-40 posts were more or less reasonable Q & A on the kick-off. After that, not so much.

    Okay, human nature being what it is, some guys are doin’ their old ladies, some guys are just doin’ and other guys are payin’ attention. But keepin’ order in the classroom is, even in college, the teacher’s job. And you’ve got a bully tool to use for keepin’ order, Dave.

    So punch out those offensive posts. The other hosts do it without battin’ an eye and I think their threads are the better for it.

  209. Josh on August 21st, 2006 8:16 pm

    I apologize for my part in responding to something that should have been ignored. It won’t happen again.

  210. joser on August 21st, 2006 9:03 pm

    Why should Dave waste his time on a thread he’s already cast as a lost cause? It’s an off day, at the end of an awful roadtrip, nearing the end of an awful season. A good teacher also knows when the kids need to let off steam. And the easiest way to cure some people of their anarchist tendencies is to give them an eyeful of real anarchy. The next time the scent of the mod whip is sharp in everyone’s nostrils, and somebody bitches and moans about the tight reign (or tight reins) around here, he or she can be pointed to this thread as an object lesson in the perils of the alternative.

    That said, I do hope I never see another roster construction post, just
    [roster masturbation]
    deletions…

  211. pdb on August 21st, 2006 9:10 pm

    [Rosterbation] would be a pretty good tag.

  212. joser on August 21st, 2006 9:16 pm

    Did anybody follow the A’s tonight? To open the first Haren gave up a home run, a single, fielder’s choice, and another home run. After the first two innings, they were down 0-8. Eight runs, in two innings! Then the A’s came back to score 7 in the 3rd and 4 in the 6th. They ended up beating the Jays 12 to 10, and Haren went 5.2 innings while giving up 9 runs (14.3 ERA) on 11 hits… and still got the win. WTF was that? (Oh, and the Jays’ starting pitcher [Lilly] and manager got into some kind of dustup that ended up giving the manager a bloody nose, though both claim no punches where thrown… can we pay somebody to do this with Hargrove?)

  213. jephdood on August 21st, 2006 9:21 pm

    Is Gibbons a huge hothead or something? This is the second major “issue” he’s had with one of his own players this year.

  214. Brian Rust on August 21st, 2006 9:35 pm

    Irony, Oly, irony. I’m not trying to extrapolate Doyle’s performance. I’m merely suggesting the sadly realistic possibility that in six weeks of play, he could earn more free passes than three regulars (JLo, Joh, YuBet) will in six months.

  215. JeffS on August 21st, 2006 10:02 pm

    Joser, those type of results make me jealous. The A’s aren’t a good team, but they always seem to pull out games like these.

  216. Oly Rainiers Fan on August 21st, 2006 11:08 pm

    214: yeah, sorry I targeted you, I get the irony. Really. But there’ve been a fair amount of posts that are acting like one guy is the messiah (Snelling) and one guy is the problem (Hargrove) and I just couldn’t take it anymore. It’s never just one guy that’ll turn it around, not with a team that hasn’t won a game in their division since mid-June anyway.

    200: Rohn. I loved him in Tacoma. Have no idea how he’ll do with the big team, if he gets the chance. But you’ll see more aggressive baserunning, you can be sure of that. And, probably more fits with the umpires.

    He (Rohn) and Jeremy Reed were both at Cheney stadium tonight, watching as Bobby Livingston actually had a pretty good start and as the crowd sang Happy Birthday to Jeff Clement, who turned 23 and celebrated with a 2 RBI double in his first AB. I heard Travis Blackley was at the park tonight as well, but didn’t see him myself so it could have just been a rumor.

  217. joser on August 21st, 2006 11:35 pm

    He may not be the messiah, but — and relevant to the original subject of this post — he is one of the few fun things left to watch this season, patient approach at the plate and all.

    As far as Gibbons goes — I don’t know, but Lilly apparently wouldn’t give up the ball when he went to change pitchers…

  218. bongo on August 22nd, 2006 1:30 am

    Any chance LaHair will see some playing time in September? Even if he has little chance of winning a regular job, it might be useful to see what we have.

    Does anyone know what landed Foppert on the DL for so long?

  219. mln on August 22nd, 2006 4:20 am

    Speaking of wacky roster speculation, how about the Mariners sign Ted Lilly to a contract this offseason?

    And then sign John Gibbons to be the manager to replace Hargrove? ;)

  220. Evan on August 22nd, 2006 9:57 am

    Despite his fights with Hillenbrand and Lilly, Gibbons has been a good manager for Toronto. He’s been creative with his use of the bullpen – not constrained by the book – and his willingness to platoon guys or generally use them in situations where they are likely to succeed is an excellent quality.

    Unfortunately, he only had one good starting pitcher. Not much he could do about that.

  221. dw on August 22nd, 2006 10:22 am

    Does anyone know what landed Foppert on the DL for so long?

    He’s never recovered from Tommy John surgery. IIRC, they shut him down after he had pain while throwing yet again.

    Foppert is done, done, done.

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.