Ichiro and Johjima
The Seattle Times has a fantastic article written by a freelance writer, Brad Lefton, on the relationship between Ichiro and Johjima. This goes way beyond standard beat writer fare and is probably one of the best baseball articles you’ll ever see published in the Times. Some of the interesting tidbits:
“I only had a bad impression of him,” Ichiro says, laughing heartily as he explains what he now considers a long-standing misperception. “When we played against each other in Japan, as an opponent, I found him brash and cocky. Honestly, I was upset when I heard the Mariners had signed him. I thought, ‘What?’ I didn’t think we could coexist here.”
“My image of him was that he was careless and not detail-oriented,” Ichiro says. “But when you observe his actions on the field, you realize he’s actually very detail-oriented and conscientious. A catcher needs to show sensitivity to his fielders and pay careful attention to details on the field.
There’s also a fantastic explanation of the sempai/kohai relationship that is central to Japanese culture, and predetermined the way these two were going to have to interact. It adds a real depth to this quote:
And Ichiro of Johjima, “Away from the ballpark, he’s always my kohai, that’s simply the way it is in Japanese society. But there are times at the ballpark when he’s more than just my kohai; he’s my teammate.”
Ichiro is disliked by most of the American media who follows the team around on a regular basis. Perhaps they should all spend more time with Brad Lefton and learn about why he does some of the things he does, rather than ascribing arrogance and aloofness to him because he’s not like the kids from Texas.
I think the Pierzinski comparison is right on the money, regarding his reported first reaction.
More interestingly, I think the article may tell us a lot about the RF>>CF move and the dynamics there. Ichiro was quoted on several occasions, when the idea came up, as saying that he would not deal with a situation that he had not been asked about by the manager. In this, Ichiro was being a dutiful kohai. As the article points out, the kohai does NOT initiate things. The kohai follows the sempai’s lead and does nothing to embarrass him. In the baseball world, Grover is Sempai to everyone on the team. It would be arrogant, rude and frankly outrageous for Ichiro to support something that the manager had not seen fit to bring up…at least in Ichiro’s view.
There has been much talk that Ichiro didn’t want to move to CF. That may be true, but I have heard nothing that establishes that it is true. As it finally turned out, Ichiro DID apparently approach Grover about making the move–but not before (as the articles pointed out) Grover had “discussed” the idea with him. None of us know what the tone of those discussions was. If Grover was oblique and mentioned it as a possibility, Ichiro may well have prepared himself mentally and waited for Grover to push the button..much the way he would prepare to PH on an “off” day. Maybe the thought of Ballgame in CF again was enough to break him loose and tell Grover to shit or get off the pot.
Again, all I know is that there is an entire universe of dynamics in that clubhouse that I don’t know..and will never know. Nor will any of us, even the ones who have contacts with the team. All we can do is speculate..which is fun, but won’t change those dynamics by one iota.
#88 – Ichiro has done many interviews during his time here. It is unfair to brand him as selfish because he doesn’t do them as often as you or some of the beat writers think he should. Maybe he is insecure about his grasp of English. That doesn’t make him selfish, does it?
So few fans are willing to give a player the benefit of a doubt regarding their motivations. Since none of us knows what is in Ichiro’s thoughts, why be so quick to label him as selfish?
Great points, Greybeard. It’s the clubhouse, his cultural upbringing, and the simple fact that he and only he knows what is going on in his head.
More mind-reading motive-bashing: you don’t see it the way Strong Silence does because you don’t want to.
More interestingly, I think the article may tell us a lot about the RF>>CF move and the dynamics there. Ichiro was quoted on several occasions, when the idea came up, as saying that he would not deal with a situation that he had not been asked about by the manager. In this, Ichiro was being a dutiful kohai. As the article points out, the kohai does NOT initiate things. The kohai follows the sempai’s lead and does nothing to embarrass him. In the baseball world, Grover is Sempai to everyone on the team. It would be arrogant, rude and frankly outrageous for Ichiro to support something that the manager had not seen fit to bring up…at least in Ichiro’s view.
There has been much talk that Ichiro didn’t want to move to CF. That may be true, but I have heard nothing that establishes that it is true. As it finally turned out, Ichiro DID apparently approach Grover about making the move–but not before (as the articles pointed out) Grover had “discussed†the idea with him. None of us know what the tone of those discussions was. If Grover was oblique and mentioned it as a possibility, Ichiro may well have prepared himself mentally and waited for Grover to push the button..much the way he would prepare to PH on an “off†day. Maybe the thought of Ballgame in CF again was enough to break him loose and tell Grover to shit or get off the pot.
Hm. Thinking it over, Grover’s philosophy is to allow the veterans to run at their own place; he seems reluctant to move them from places from roles which they are comfortable with. His discussion with Ichiro was more to sound out what he was comfortable with, as opposed to persuading him to go to center. Since Ichiro wasn’t initially comfortable with it (and this may have been way at the beginning of the year, or even last year), Hargrove may have let it stand there, while Ichiro may have expected another approach from Hargrove later this year.
Not sure if that’s selfish or missed non-verbal signals…
Hm, did the rest of my post get moderated, or just somehow not show up?
I’ll bet you munged a tag.
I’ll bet I did. Boo, me.
Trying again:
Strong Silence, are you aware that you make this kind of dismissal of people who disagree with you in virtually every comment, and generally avoiding responding to the substance of their arguments? Just as “You all just think that because….” is the hallmark of the arguer who can’t respond to the things people actually say, “Whoa! I guess I hit a nerve there” is the sure sign of a guy who’s behaving like a jerk but can only blame everyone who gets annoyed at him. It’s not your opinions that “hit a nerve”, it’s your rudeness. Pissing people off does not make you an iconoclast.
Re #96: The fact that you’re convinced of something doesn’t mean anybody else should be, let alone everybody else. The fact that you find your statements convincing doesn’t mean they actually have the power to convince anybody. Thus, the fact that people disagree with you doesn’t necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with their reading comprehension. On the other hand, the fact that you look at others’ disagreement and the closest approximation to a rational response you can offer is “I’ve hit a nerve so rational thinking has gone out the window” — a comment which makes sense only if you assume that only your thinking can be rational, and thus that thinking opposed to yours must be irrational — strongly suggests comprehension problems on your part: to wit, a failure to comprehend that people can honestly disagree with you for good reason, using good logic, with full intellectual integrity.
97 and 102, I realize Ichiro is not required to do interviews. I understand the language barrier issue. However, that problem could be solved if Ichiro wanted to solve it – which he clearly doesn’t. I’m simply saying the organization would likely benefit if he were more accessible. I’m basing this argument on the fact that he is enormously popular and people are intrigued by him. People will tune in just to see him or hear what he has to say. I know I would. I have to believe that privately, management wishes Ichiro would be more accessible than he is. He’s a money-maker for them, plain and simple.
And I’m saying it’s not a problem and you should stop treating it as such. He is not beholden to the team.
Re #110: what you “have to believe” isn’t evidence, at least not for any proposition regarding Ichiro. It’s a mildly interesting fact about your psyche, though.
And I have to say, btw, that I’m surprised that no one else here seems to share my initial reaction to this article — namely, “Forget Geoff Baker (please!), Brad Lefton should be Pocket Lint’s replacement.”
“Girlie man”? Did you really say “girlie man”?
I’m not that big of an Ichiro fan one way or the other, but are you really QUESTIONING HIS MANHOOD? Whoa, Nellie. That’s ridiculous.
You want him to punch his buddies on the arm more, or what, exactly?
Maybe the new Ms manager should talk to Lefton so that Ichiro will take more days off during the season. I wonder how much (if any) multi-cultural awareness classes/seminars the Ms hold.
The fortune-cookie psychoanalysis (which provides volumes of material about the his critics here, especially the left-handshakers)here is exactly why Ichiro doesn’t lay himself more open to the press. He went through this in Japan as a kid, and was smart enough to realize that the bottomlessly leechlike adoration they offered him their was as useless to his own goals as playing along with the dehumanizing good cop/bad cop routinues that fill most articles on baseball here.
You don’t like who he is or how he plays, the answer is not to watch him.
Bill James wrote something about Babe Ruth that went something like “not obeying the rules was his defining trait.” To expand on that, great players have certain traits that define not their talent, but how they approach the game. The approach is what makes them who they are, and ultimately as who we see them. It’s this, fully as much as their actual performance, that gains the imagination (postive or negative) of the fans.
As a sort of proof, notice how very, very little Joh is discussed in this thread, compared to his larger place in the article.
The real “Ichiro offense” that I gleam, both from the swill written by the standard, almost generic, asshole pundi-dio-t and in the complaing “I wish… Ichiro should…” comments above is that he has decided not to flatter such people with the pretense of attention. Get used to him being Ichiro, because while he can change his mind, and even take advice, he isn’t going to change his careful and deep understanding of the game and himself jus’ ‘cos.
#21 Coach Owen’s comment about Arnold Schwartzenegger’s “Girlie Man”:
Yeah, Arnold was taking steroids at the time, too, wasn’t he? Considering what they probably did to his gonads, Gov’ner Arnold now is probably more of a Girlie Man than Ichiro…. 🙂
#88. LTFC said: I’ll throw in an example of Ichiro being selfish and not helping the organization. How about his refusal to give interviews with the media? He is clearly the biggest draw for the organization…; also LTFC’s subseq. comment #110:
How about the fact that Ichiro does those silly Mariners ads, including the ones where people try to imitate his outfield wall jumps and his mannerisms at the plate? How about that interview done recently with Matt MOrrison where he talked about his bats (SHOCKER! it was through an interpreter!!)? How about the “Mariners Care” appearances he does for kids, along with other Mariners?
It wouldn’t surprise me if some people feel he’s seen TOO much, that players like Willie Bloomquist are really the face of the organization. (!!!)
I wonder how much (if any) multi-cultural awareness classes/seminars the Ms hold.
That’s too wussy for Real Men. And especially not for Real Baseball Men.
(Not to mention that finding decent multicultural classes worth anything is hard to do…)
I wonder how much (if any) multi-cultural awareness classes/seminars the Ms hold.
’bout as many as the various newspapers hold, I imagine.
Ichiro is an excellent example of a certain personality type; I say that having done an extensive study of same. Here are a few ‘categorical qualities’ of that type, so to speak, among many which attach to the group to whom he belongs: the virtuoso; hyper-intense; self-absorbed; can be over-proud; not always liked but often admired; can be kind or cruel from the blue; leaves fools to starve; in the hour of need will come if called; cares for the vision most, plans can lack substance. Ted Williams, btw, is another excellent example of the same type. Many of the same criticisms we hear in this thread were directed at him as well due to the nature of that personality. Johjima, also btw, has a personality type which should just rub Ichiro raw, and as he says it DID across the ocean. It says a lot about both of them that they managed to work it out, and even find some personal and professional rapport. I suspect that this has more to to with Johjima being flexible and making the extra effort, but either way.
Ichiro, it is clear, has intense disdain for the media. This is significantly due to his profoundly negative experience with the leechlike [a blessed adjective in this context] Nipponese papparazi, but also his personality does not mesh with the profound falseness of hype-selling. The media with whom he deals surely feel this. Calling Ichiro selfish because he refuses to play the media game is pure nonsense: we should _all_ be so foolish, it would be a better world. Mr. Suzuki has no responsibility to the team whatsover to make the media folks happy beyond basic civility as a professional obligation. Asking Ichrio stupid, gee-whizz-make-my-headline questions is behavior bound to elicit scarcely veiled contempt. . . . I couldn’t care a rat’s ass if the media types resent this. If they want to learn Nipponese, understand Ichiro as player, understand how he plays the game of baseball, and ask sensible questions, they can get their quotes and stories. As we see, only ONE reporter has bothered to do this. What does that say about the rest of them other than that they want the rich, famous athlete to kiss their asses rather than the other way around [to be both a bit unfair and blunt]? I’ll wager $500 that what I just said is visible on Ichiro’s face like a tattoo everytime they approach him for a comment, “Here come the presstitutes. Again.” Ichii, I’m with you, baby.
Calling Ichiro ‘selfish’ because he won’t play CF is wide of the mark. Derek has said, and I have too in other contexts, that Ichiro is looking to avoid injury and maximize his endurance to be worth as much as possible in the postseason. What most of us don’t realize is how much his game takes out of his legs: the intense acceleration out of the box, the stolen bases. He wants to have something left for meaningful games late in the season. Of course the fact that, in a REAL crisis, he volunteers to play there after not being in CF for years passes right by. I fully expect that the moment that Adam Jones is ready, Ichiro goes back to RF, and I’m perfectly happy with that. Ichrio doesn’t play the way that I might want him to, but he plays his kind of game as well as anyone possibly could. For me, that’s enough. What more do you want from him? Really??
Calling Ichiro ‘a selfish player’ in general strikes me as nonsensical. There is no one on the team who wants to win more; I think that I can say that without reservation. Ichrio prepares himself in every possible way to use his skill set as he understands and can hone it to win; every year, every week, every game, every AB, every chance. What I like about him most is the way he bears down in key, mid-game ABs to either get on base or drive a player in while the game is close but undecided: to me, this is what defines him as a player. How many of you who call him selfish rank the quality I just mention as the first or second thing you think about when you hear his name? If not, why not, and what does that say about YOU?
I think it’s safe to say the Ichiro is utterly disdainful of those who don’t make a similar effort, which is to say 97% of the other players in the game, and hence on the team. Self-absorbed, over-proud, not empathetic, inflexible, and wrapped up in his own vision; yes, he’s all of those things. I’m sure many others sense this implicitly or grasp it explicitly, and dislike him for it. There are all the cultural differences in how he plays the game, too, on top of the personality differences. Ichiro doesn’t see things their way; he doesn’t do things their way; he doesn’t ask their permission or apologize for any of this; he doesn’t care how they feel about it; . . . and he’s better at what he does than they could ever be, and better at most of what _they_ do then than they could ever be, too. That breeds resentment; it’s stupid, but it’s human nature, as it were.
. . . Did I mention that I have the same personality type? Can’t play baseball worth a damn, though. : \
I already kind of regret coming back to this, but I can’t let #87 pass without comment. Honestly, strong silence, the last thing you get to criticize anyone for, at this point, is failing to read posts. You haven’t addressed a single thing we’ve said; you just repeat your own opinion ad nauseam.
For all we know, you haven’t been reading any of our posts. It probably doesn’t matter either way, since you don’t give a damn what anybody else has to say about anything.
I think it’s safe to say the Ichiro is utterly disdainful of those who don’t make a similar effort, which is to say 97% of the other players in the game, and hence on the team. Self-absorbed, over-proud, not empathetic, inflexible, and wrapped up in his own vision; yes, he’s all of those things. I’m sure many others sense this implicitly or grasp it explicitly, and dislike him for it. There are all the cultural differences in how he plays the game, too, on top of the personality differences. Ichiro doesn’t see things their way; he doesn’t do things their way; he doesn’t ask their permission or apologize for any of this; he doesn’t care how they feel about it; . . . and he’s better at what he does than they could ever be, and better at most of what _they_ do then than they could ever be, too. That breeds resentment; it’s stupid, but it’s human nature, as it were.
That Hargrove lets the other players, particularly the vets, get away with this, and doesn’t really support Ichiro and his approach to the game–is that where the friction between the two comes from?
To me, the other players just see somewhat differently how to play the game, and significantly differently what they expect of themselves. That isn’t even necessarily a criticism, and I’m by no means sure that Ichiro’s _teammates_ have a pervasively negative view of him. I suspect the ‘not always liked but often admired’ aspect comes into play here.
Oh, and JimThom over on the Kitsap Wrapper, if you’re at all moved to take my anti-media comments personally, please don’t. Like many professions, journalism can be done well or poorly, honorably or dishonorably. It’s just that the pressures in the business, especially in the electronic media militate performance overwhelmingly toward the garbage end of the spectrum. Reporters aren’t stupid, and where they are well-paid, promoted, and sought out by useful sources for doing ill while shunned and disemployed for actually reporting it’s clear that this has an effect on their approach over time, however much they might resist it; most embrace the past of greatest reward. At the same time, journalists, by the nature of the profession, have regular contact with numerous colossally over-inflated egos, liars, publicity hounds, bores, and general scoundrels. One sees and must managage the worst, and that inevitably creates a preference for newsworthy, accessible, and friendly contacts, who hopefully are also honest and accurate. I think that you know, far better than we, the difference between a reporter and a media whore. Sports journalism leaves very little operating room for the former, and greatly rewards the latter. Ergo . . . Finnigan et. al.
“path of greatest reward” *sigh* [freakin’ sparkin’ neurons]
Unlike the selfish, introverted non-English speaking, girlie man Ichiro, Willie Bloomquist is the opposite of these loathsome qualities.
Willie is a gritty team player, who gets his uniform dirty like a real man, pals around with the media types, and can speak All-Amurikan English fluently.
Willie > Ichiro
Ted Williams as a personality comp for Ichiro? When was the last time Ichiro spat at fans, or ripped them in the media, or loafed on defense?
Ted Williams was the best hitter ever, but he was also a huge jerk, much like Rogers Hornsby (one of Ted’s heros in the minors, BTW). Ichiro’s not in that league.
Take a closer look at Williams, e-coward; you’re only repeating the fragmentary urban legends. Calling him a jerk isn’t quite it. Oh and btw, he didn’t ‘spit’ at fans: he gave the stands the finger, and spread it around to include everyone, when they were booing him when, frankly, they shouldn’t have been. It’s the ‘I couldn’t care less what you think, and I don’t care if you know that’ response that comes closer to Ichii. And, for example, consider how Williams kept right on pulling the ball through The Infield Shift—and succeeding—while a lot of the fans and the press though he was an arrogant bastard for not hitting the other way; now read, Ichiro keeps dinking the ball on the ground and hitting singles while a lot of the press thinks he’s an arrogant bastard for not pulling screaming liners through the drawn-in infield. See what I mean a little more? Now, Williams was a hard-boiled American while Ichiro is from quite a different culture, so it makes for different behaviors off the same internal position, but (etc., etc.).
But Rogers Hornsby, not THERE was a total A-hole, and a cheater on the field, and a liar. The fact that he could really, really hit can’t and doesn’t obscure the fundamental mean crookedness of the man.
And as a final note, Ichiro saying that Joe-Jim has kawaii to him is totally freakin’ HILARIOUS. And actually true. Kind of like if Sexson called Bret Boone a ‘sexy little Johnson’ (in a nice way). The next time you hear someone say that Suzuki I. has no sense of humor, this is the comment to cite back.
Ooops, one final note: For those wondering about Ichiro’s ‘slump’ this August, remember that he playe the Baseball Classic [a misnomer, but] in March. His season started early; those games really counted, and were a very big deal back in Nihon and Korea. And then Grover like a dolt plays Ichiro virtually every inning all year long. Of course Ichiro isn’t going to beg off—but hhis legs feel it, and he’s lagging. You can read this as Ichiro being ‘a team guy,’ Grover being a dolt about roster utilization, or the intersection of the two, but you _can’t_ read it as Ichiro not putting an effort out for the group.
Um, I’ve read My Turn At Batand a fair amount of material about Williams. I’ll stand by my statement.
Like I said, you show me where Ichiro’s pulled ANYTHING like the stunts Ted Williams pulled, I’ll buy the comparison. It’s like comparing Teddy Ballgame to Edgar because they both could tell if their bats were a quarter ounce heavy.