Shakeup
Dave · September 13, 2006 at 5:42 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Dan Rohn and Ron Hassey have left the team, effective immediately.
These aren’t the first firings, and they won’t be the last. Expect a fairly significant purge of the coaching staff throughout the organization.
Did I miss other firings?
Also Dave, JonWells is saying that the circumstances were slightly different, can you back that up?
Well it’s about time. Rohn really sucked up the joint this year.
There’s been a few changes at the minor league level too. They aren’t public yet.
I’m not sure what Jon is saying, so I don’t know if I can back it up or not.
Apparently all the mirrors in the front office are broken. This should sufficiently sour the clubhouse the remainder of the year.
Dave, the press release reads that one was told he wouldn’t be back next year, but could stay the season at his option. The other was told he would not renewed and he could leave now.
Yea, that’s pretty much true. Rohn was fired effective immediately, while Hassey decided to quit before he was terminated.
Now Hargrove can really shine without all that dead weight around his neck. I think I’m going to be sick. Does this mean Rohn’s not in consideration for the managerial job during the offseason?
Maybe I’m missing something, but Dan Rohn? Can anyone explain why?
Does this mean Rohn’s not in consideration for the managerial job during the offseason?
Yea.
And look, Dan Rohn might be a good major league manager, but let’s not wring our hands over this. This isn’t some catastrophe.
I wonder if they told Rohn he just wasn’t getting the job done. I hope, if they did, he replied something like, “Well you guys made up the damned bogus job in the first place.”
Don’t get me wrong, I wanted to Free Dan Rohn mostly because it meant the M’s would fire Mike Hargrove. I never thought Hargrove would outlast Rohn this year, however. That’s what makes me sick. I look forward to the post on the top managerial candidates.
Wow, this doesn’t make much sense.
Maybe Rohn was the devil on Mike Hargrove’s shoulder. You think they would have let him resign seeing as the coaching staff would have been turned over anyway once Grover was fired.
There are two bigger names that should have been fired before Rohn’s name came up. Sadly, they are still part of the club.
#10: exactly.
I really like Dan Rohn. He’s a good guy, and I hope the Ms paid him really well to effectively asked him to put his career on hold while they decided whether they liked Mike Hargrove or not. And apparently they’ve decided they do, so hey, maybe we’ll get to watch him all next year as well. Wasn’t it Hargrove that hired Hassey though?
Wow I’m irritated. I didn’t think they could make me more irritated, but everytime I think that, they find some obscure way.
Not that I know Rohn would have made a great major league manager; maybe he will, maybe he won’t. I just know he was a helluva good minor league manager, and a very nice man who knows and loves this game with all his heart.
I now expect nothing less than a 10 game winning streak.
yup, Hassey was Hargrove’s man.
when asked by the press about when they talked to Rohn, Bavasi said it had happened just prior to the announcement, and when asked about his leaving immediately (as opposed to Hassey being told he could stay), Bavasi made the remark “Mike was comfortable in making the move now” …
Do these moves make it more more likely Hargrove will be back?
Just tell me that Hargrove is still getting canned at the end of the year. That’s all I need to hear. Please tell me this will happen.
Do these moves make it more more likely Hargrove will be back?
No.
These seems like very unusual moves to make with just a couple weeks or so left in the season. Very odd timing. There must be more to this story – or maybe more moves or imminent?
I think (and I might be way off) that the FO made their decision about Hargrove a long time ago. If he’s going to be fired then he’ll be fired, if he’s going to be back then he’ll be back. I don’t think these moves effect the outcome.
Soooooooo, we fired the smarter guy (Rohn) rather than the idiot (Hargrove) first?
That’s. . .stupid.
Quite stupid.
I’m not saying Rohn should’ve been the manager next year, but after that 11 game losing streak in August, Hargrove needed to get canned and have Dan Rohn get a month long interview.
All I can say after this crap happened today is [Piniella]
When you say someone Pinella-like, do you mean…
a) someone who yells a lot and/or throws occasional entertaining fits at games
b) someone who destroys young pitchers
c) someone who always plays proven veterans over young players
d) a big name, proven veteran major league manager
e) all of the above
I liked Lou. But that team, and that time, has come and gone. This is a whole different kind of team, much more like a Devil Rays kind of ‘young and rebuilding’ team, and, well, he wasn’t exactly successful there.
Re. #22:
Actually, what’s stupid is the fact that you misspelled Lou Piniella’s surname.
At any rate, though, Piniella managing Felix Hernandez and other young pitchers would probably be a bad thing—there’s no denyin’ it!
Is it hard for me to read between the lines? Yes it is! It saddens me to think that Grover may be the man in charge next year. The M’s actually needed a man of Rohns caliber. Now I can see if these two were thorns in the side of the manager then I can see it. But from a person,(fan), on the lines I do not see it and what I do see is some “boneheaded” managing and obscure signining from the FO. these are what needs to be addressed. IMO! Boy am I ever frustrated with the goings on at the moment.
What did Dan Rohn actually /do/?
I got the impression that his job was just a title to try to keep him from bolting before he replaced Hargrove.
Did he actually have a job that he could have been performing badly enough to get fired?
My .02
…seems Piniella did alright with what he had in TB. They always
seemed to exceed expectations, but never had those extra couple pieces to pull it out.
Where are the pragmatic managers? Hargrove was an obvious mistake. The Rohn firing does seem strange. Wasn’t he popular? If Bavasi insists on aggressively moving prospects, aren’t any minor league managers’ records going to suffer?
..let alone major league managers and their bench coaches…
Might we see Dave Brundage managing in Seattle in 2006?
I’ve been cooling on Rohn on late as I realized that the only thing really working to his advantage was that he is Not Hargrove.
#27– not really exceeding expectations….
2005 67-95 5th place
2004 70-91 4th place (the Jays were injury-stricken all year)
2003 63-99 5th place
It only took 22 comments until Pinella’s name was mentioned. That’s pretty good.
No kidding, re: Piniella in Tampa. You can argue he didn’t have much to work with, but c’mon, the Rays stunk up the joint during his tenure.
the whole thing just leaves me puzzled.
Why didn’t they tell Hargrove that he wouldn’t be renewed next year and give him the option of leaving now?
Who really made the decision on Hassey and Rohn? Did Bavasi and Hargrove take turns?
Any idea why Rohn was fired (and especially at such an odd time as this)?
For all we know Ira, they may have given Grover that option as well. Just hasn’t been made public if he is choosing to stay for the remainder of the season.
Bizarre. I want to know more.
Glad that the USSM folks don’t think this bodes well for Hargrove, tho.
Hmmm, I wonder if Pentland and Chaves will still have a place in the organization next season?
Maybe they’re secretly grooming Pentland for the manager’s position.
Good lord, I didn’t even Lou would come back. I said he or someone like him needs to come back and manage this team.
Obviously whoever comes in as manager next year needs to take care of the young arms of this pitching staff correctly and Lou has a reputation of overusing young pitchers. But you know what, at some point it’s time to stop talking about development and start talking about winning.
A lot of these young players like Lopez, Betancourt, Beltre, Sexson, Snelling, Putz, Sherrill, etc. have been in the Major Leagues for 2-3 years already, and just about all these guys have gone through a 162 game schedule in the AL with a couple exceptions like O’Flahrety and Lowe, but that’s about it.
And now that this team has improved to just about .500, under an idiot manager no less, after having 99 losses just 2 years ago.
Well, then I’m sorry, I’m all for the idea of development, but at some point it’s time to “put up or shut up”, and we are quickly approaching that time if you think about the situation of this team.
I just don’t see how anyone would protest to hiring a guy that is Lou-like because all your doing is bringing leadership and fairly good baseball knowledge on the bench to a team that desperately needs it, and quite honestly, you would be bringing some credability back into the franchise.
You people also fail to realize that Pinella has also made every situation better than it was before, and also that the situation he walked into with the Mariners in 1993 was somewhat similar to what the Mariners status quo is now.
Edgar was not yet “Saint Edgar” even though he had won a batting title, Buhner hadn’t really put it all together yet (partially because of how Jim Lefevre used him and treated him), Randy Johnson was still somewhat erratic, Dan Wilson was not yet there, Tino was still developing, Blowers still developing, etc.
Quite honestly the only proven superstar the M’s had at the time was Ken Griffey, Jr.
But other than that, the M’s young talent was just young talent that hadn’t really panned out yet, and the supporting pieces such as Dan Wilson, Joey Cora, Vince Coleman, Norm Charlton, Chris Bosio, etc. had not come yet.
So please quit trashing on my posts about Lou, he would actually make a great canidate to be manager of this team and he would certainly make the Mariners situation better than it is now.
But of course knowing that he should come here and knowing whether or not he WOULD come here are 2 completely different things.
I have no doubt over whether he should come here, but whether he WILL come here, that’s up for him to decide and us to debate.
You
Me?
Sorry about the gramattical errors, but you get my point
I don’t think I even meant type that last ‘You’
Hargrove next! Let the bloody Moose manage the team for the rest of the season!
Rohn was fired because Hargrove caught him making passes at Willie.
This really sucks. I was hoping to see Rohn in charge next year. I hope this doesnt mean that Hargrove will be back next year, cuz if he is…I really dont know if I can handle another year of it.
Tom wrote:
This seems to be the premise of your argument that Lou PINIELLA would make a good manager for the M’s — essentially, that this isn’t really a young team but a team that is a couple years into it and all it needs is a kick in the ass, etc.
The problem is, that premise is false.
Yuniesky Betancourt has played 160 major league games — not quite a full season’s worth of games yet. Felix Hernandez has 40 career major league starts – a little more than a year’s worth. Kenji Johjima, obviously, has less than a year’s MLB experience. Jose Lopez has played 245 major league games over parts of three seasons — the equivalent of about a season and a half. Jeremy Reed has a little less than that – 226 games. Chris Snelling has played 45 major league games.
Of the young core, only J.J. has anything close to “2-3 years already” (leaving aside the question of whether 2-3 years is enough to ready a team for contention with a kick in the ass from the likes of Piniella).
Not to mention that the following pitchers have ALL made their MLB debuts this year (most in the last month or two): Lowe, O’Flaherty, Baek, Chick, Cruceta, Feierabend, Fruto, Huber, and Woods. Position players in that boat: Bohn, Jones, Navarro.
The core of this team is very, very young. A fiery manager whose talents run to motivating veteran players is not well-suited to this club.
Did anyone really think they were going to hand the team to Dan Rohn in spring training next year? They’ll almost certainly hire someone with more stature in the game. I’m hoping that Joltless Joe red-asses his way out of Florida and up here.
I think Rohn is probably linked to something that is a problem with this team this year. During their 11 game losing streak, the team was out on the field every afternoon yukking it up, playing flip, talking trash. And Rohn was always in the middle of the action. Right or wrong, I’m sure the team is pissed as hell about that.
Goofing off when winning = good chemistry, keeping loose. Goofing off while losing = not being a winning organization, embarrassing.
I know the thick end of nothing about Dan Rohn, but just in terms of etiquette, this seems a tasteless and shameful bit of scapegoating from the Mariners.
I’m having Girardi dreams too; but what bad team isn’t?
Tom, I’m sorry — as you say — but your case for Piniella, gaining in volume and hysteria as your post progresses, is long on emotion and short on reason. It’s just as easy to make the case that Piniella was lucky to be here at the right time as it is to give him credit for leading the team to paradise — and let’s not forget, with an undeniably great team, he never even got us to the Series, never mind the championship. And, he’s “made every situation better than it was before”? Seriously, have you followed any part of his career other than taking over as Seattle’s manager? Including the years when he was managing a clear contender and brought us bupkis?
Firing Rohn is very discouraging for an ignorant fan like myself. Of course I have no idea what’s going on behind the scenes, and I never thought the idea of hiring Rohn was some kind of magic elixir, but in what possible rational way can he be a fall guy for this season while Hargrove continues to blindfoldedly fill out lineup cards and pinch-hit based on eldritch readings of the entrails of disemboweled umpires?
#42 I gotta admit that was funny.
he was treading water in a made-up job just in case Hargrove got canned mid-season — when they didn’t dump Hargrove, he really had nothing to do with his made-up job except shuffle papers and shoot the bull….
38-
I am not anti-Lou, but I really don’t think bringing Lou back sends the right message.
Sure to the casual fan (you guys know the ones I mean) it sounds nice, bringing back a manager who was around for the M’s glory days. However for fans like me (I like to think I am a step above casual) it sends a message of – we don’t know how to win so we are going to hire a manager that did it here before and hope for the best.
To me bringing Lou back is a desperation move, and it is one that doesn’t have to be done to make this team a contender in 2007.
Before we can get Lou back, we need to trade for Ryan Howard!
*ducks*
Fine, I will shut up about Lou for a while. I don’t even know if he wants to come back to managing next year anyways.
But quite honestly, who else is there now that Rohn is gone?
I bet besides Dave, Derek, and a couple other guys that go to this website, I’m sure most of you (not that you are dumb, of course. A lot of smart people go on this blog) couldn’t really name more than 2 legitimate canidates to be the M’s manager next year.
Because everyone talked about the logical choice in Rohn and others have talked about the dream possibility that Piniella comes back.
Obviously Choice #1 (Rohn) is out of the option, and Choice #2 may not even be available.
Just ask yourselves, who else is there?
When Grover gets fired it will be 2 managers in 4 years after Lou was here for 10. And knowing that, what makes you think the next manager is going to be all that great?
To me, it’ll be great when Grover leaves, but quite honestly, I have no faith right now that the M’s are going to pick the right manager for this club.
Especially if Bill Bavasi is still there to pick him. Heck, if Bavasi is still here, I bet we’ll probably be stuck with Terry Collins or someone like that next year. And by this time next year, we’ll be complaining about the exact same situation and you’ll find that this franchise will be going backwards rather than forwards like it is now (albeit barely).
That’d be great if Lou came back, but that’s a “pipe dream” at best probably. It doesn’t look like a very deep pool for managerial talent though other than Lou (or Rohn who we got rid of).
#52: Just ask yourselves, who else is there?
How about anyone who’s ever been fired from a MLB manager’s job? That pool should be getting deeper in just a few short weeks.
If Rohn was (allegedly) standing around yukking it up with the players, what the heck was Grover doing about that?
This latest turmoil indicates that Bavasi ought to be canned. It doesn’t seem like he’s able to put together a managerial/coaching group that can maintain the team’s focus.
#53-I meant who is there that is GOOD?
I think there should be a “Manager for a Day” promotion at least for half the season and see how it works. The only restriction on the Fan/Manager is that the Ignitor is limited to 125 ABs over the course of the season.
We could also have “Draw the lineup out of a hat Day” on tuesdays.
#55: That depends. Do they have to be objectively good, or just an improvement on Mike Hargrove?
I honestly do not know what to make of this.
All I can hope is that it means the end of Grover forever.
This latest turmoil indicates that Bavasi ought to be canned. It doesn’t seem like he’s able to put together a managerial/coaching group that can maintain the team’s focus.
That’s HARGROVE’S job, not Bavasi’s (And I’ve heard that Hargrove was not Bavasi’s choice for manager…).
#57-both
#60: Uh, any objectively good candidate would automatically satisfy the other criterion.
Not necessarily, remember Hargrove had all those winning seasons in Cleveland with all those stars such as Alomar, Vizquel, Matt Williams, Thome, Lofton, Nagy, Mesa, Giles, etc.
It’s one thing to have talent, it’s another thing to have a smart person running it.
Hargrove got a lot of wins with Cleveland, but he’s obviously proved to be a very stupid manager.
So it’s both objective (getting more wins) and someone who is smarter than Hargrove in general.
59: Yes, it’s Grover’s job… that’s why I said “what the heck was Grover doing about that?”
#62: Having plenty of wins in Cleveland doesn’t make Hargrove objectively good. He had plenty of losses in Baltimore, and there was no case of identity theft to blame it on.
Unless Hargrove is “objectively good,” anyone “objectively good” would be better than he.
At the moment, I think there are very few “good” managers in baseball (that’s actually true for most moments), so I would settle for one better than the current guy.
If there was a way to dig John McGraw or Billy Martin out of the ground and give him the M’s job, that would be okay by me.
59: Yes, it’s Grover’s job… that’s why I said “what the heck was Grover doing about that?â€
Well, given that you said that Bavasi should be canned for it, I’m not sure I’m getting it.
If Grover’s not doing anything about it, then Bavasi would be justified for firing Grover when the season’s over. Not sure that Bavasi should be fired for not taking care of it now, when it’s just one area of his duties (and not one under his direct purview at that).
If there was a way to dig John McGraw or Billy Martin out of the ground and give him the M’s job, that would be okay by me.
McGraw would more than solve our third base problem too.
A bit late, but in 27, I was thinking of 2004, when Piniella’s Devil Rays threw together a 20-6 June to suddenly look like competitors, they went over .500 (and the Jays sucked that year, too yeah). Anyway, that looks like the only bright spot on his managing w/ TB career and it stuck out in my mind.
Maybe Bob Melvin (winner!) will be available….hehehe.
Not even Melvin would give Crazy Carl so many atbats…
Mike Hargrove managing any baseball team is bad for the game. I’m not totally sold on Rohn, so I won’t shed any tears over this (yet), but I’m going to be extremely disappointed if Hargrove is back for next year.
It’s academic, because nobody even in baseball would do it, even if the Mob kidnapped close family members of everyone from Lincoln to the parking attendant, but I will not follow the Mariners at all, in any form or forum, if Hargrove is back in 2007.
I also predict that Ichiro will refuse to sign again with Seattle if Hargrove returns to ruin another year of his career.
How about Willie Ballgame for manager? He’d do less harm there than he would on the field.
This seems like a really, really odd firing, as to timing and all.
Honestly, everyone overreacting to this is kind of amusing.
This doesn’t mean Hargrove is coming back.
This doesn’t mean the M’s are in chaos.
This doesn’t mean that Bavasi has lost control of the organization.
This doesn’t mean that there’s now no one available to manage the club next year.
This just isn’t that big of a deal, honestly. Would you have flipped out if Rohn interviewed for the manager’s job this offseason and they hired someone else, and then he left to pursue other opportunities? I would hope not. But the end result would be exactly the same – Rohn not here, and someone else managing the Mariners in 2007.
Don’t get so worked up about this. It’s just not a big deal.
Honestly, everyone overreacting to this is kind of amusing.
Yep.
I am not flipping out, I’m just baffled. Why fire Rohn? What’s the point?
The end result would be the same if Rohn interviewed and wasn’t hired, yes, but the way organizations reach their end results can tell you something about how they work, and what kind of results you can expect from them in the future.
“Rohn,” in the grand scheme, is just a name that is not “Hargrove.” That’s the root of the despair here. There are plenty of people who can manage, many of whom no one here has heard of. Anyone who thinks that bringing Lou back is the answer overestimates the impact of any manager as well as Lou’s actual abilities. Time to move forward.
I am not flipping out, I’m just baffled. Why fire Rohn? What’s the point?
They know something you don’t.
No doubt, but it’s natural to react to something like this that seems inexplicable by wondering about the organization, especially when the organization has already given us plenty of reason not to trust that their reasons are good.
It’s the Hassey firing that gives me hope. Hassey and Hargrove go way back, so either:
1. Hassey did or didn’t do something that made Grover mad
2. Grover is as good as gone and as a favor to his old buddy he’s letting him go now to start looking for a new job
Those are the only 2 options I can see, and I’m pulling for #2.
No doubt, but it’s natural to react to something like this that seems inexplicable by wondering about the organization, especially when the organization has already given us plenty of reason not to trust that their reasons are good.
Why isn’t it natural to just say “wow, I don’t have any idea why this happened, and without further information, I’m not going to jump to any conclusions”?
Baseball Prospectus made the stathead community famous for overreacting without having all (or even some of) the information. It’s one of our worst flaws, and the sooner we stop doing it, the better.
I’m curious to know why but I’m sure Bavasi had his reasons. I don’t think he would do this without some very valid ones.
Dave – As to the other organizational purges…Are these coming during the remainder of the season or will most happen at the conclusion? Is it going to be a large purge to get a set organizational philosophy in place (i.e. take more pitches)?
Dave, do you have an inside scoop on this that you could divulge?
Dave – As to the other organizational purges…Are these coming during the remainder of the season or will most happen at the conclusion? Is it going to be a large purge to get a set organizational philosophy in place (i.e. take more pitches)?
Pretty much everyone who won’t be back next year knows it by now. When the announcement is made, and when their offseason begins, is basically up to them. But no, I don’t think you’re going to see a “take more pitches” philosophy instilled. Bavasi likes aggressive hitters; always has, and probably always will.
Dave, do you have an inside scoop on this that you could divulge?
No. I don’t know why Rohn was let go immediately, honestly. I have my suspicions, but I’ll keep that to myself. But I do know that he wasn’t fired because the organization is in chaos or Hargrove made some kind of power play or any of the other conspiracy theories posited earlier in the thread.
Fair enough, thanks.
I think it’s most natural to lament the fact that Hargrove outlasted Rohn. There’s no additional conclusion that follows that for me. I don’t even care why, really. Seems most logical that, as you indicated before, the M’s will do a full-blown manager search now that probably wouldn’t have had Rohn on the short list anyway. At the point of final decline this season, we had reached the point of no return, and I thought there was no way Grover was going to be fired so late in the season. Whether Rohn remained to the end of the season or left two weeks ago made little practical difference to the club.
After the past two years, there’s no reason to expect Grover remains as the Manager of the M’s. It’d be a disaster decision, and one I don’t think the organization is foolish enough to make. If he remains against all odds, that’s when I start to jump to conclusions.
I think the 11 game road trip disaster sealed Hargroves fate, if not the combined 20 game losing streak to our divisional rivals. If we had managed to win just 10 of those divisonal games things would be very interesting.
I guess Hargroves crazy lineups might be an indication he has been given his pink slip. Not a lot of motivation there.
Dave-You note that there are more coaching changes throught the organization that will be coming down. On this site first and now starting to show up in the papers are commentaries on the big aggressive hitting style that the big club has and thoughts that it is encouraged in the lower levels (taught). Any idea or guess that a revamping of teaching philosophy is underway? This is a very odd thing to do this late in the season.
I’m with Dave that this isn’t too big a deal, and we should all justgo straight to “wait and see” mode. Honestly, my first reaction to this was “this means Hargrove will be gone the morning after the season ends” (not that I didn’t already strongly suspect that). Rohn being fired now is probably a courtesy to him, after they told him they were going to let Grover finish out the year and planned to look for candidates with MLB managing experience (i.e., not Rohn). With no mangerial experience on this level, and after sitting out a year, Rohn is very likely looking to return to managing at the AAA level, and those clubs are already in offseason mode – it makes perfect sense that the M’s would choose to facilitate his job search by releasing him now.
The firing of Hassey is a pretty good indication of how the club feels about Grover, IMO.
Dave,
Can you make them hire Larry Dierker? I know you don’t actually have any pull, and I know he might not have any interest, but that’s who I want!
Does anyone know anything about Bobby Valentine? I followed the Mets when he managed there, but at the time didn’t know enough about stats to get a good impression of him.
Does anyone know anything about Bobby Valentine?
By all accounts that I’ve read, he’s incredibly happy managing in Japan and has no desire to leave.
There is only a couple of things that I don’t like but hopefully its no big deal.
Quotes from the AP article:
“With Dan, Mike was more comfortable making the move today,” Bavasi said.
“The role of being Mike’s bench coach might not be the right spot for him. That’s the way we felt, Mike and I felt.” -Bavasi
We’ll see. If Mike is for sure gone, then how does his feelings affect whether or not Rohn is gone now?
Anyways, its probably no big deal, but those two quotes just stick out a bit.
Wow, where’s a “Jump to Conclusions” mat when you really need one?
Rohn’s duties as “administrative” coach were to coordinate scouting reports and be ready to take over as manager if Hargrove was fired in-season. With only two weeks left in a season, there was no need for Rohn to perform either duty. For whatever reason, management decided against hiring Rohn as manager for next season. As Livengood noted, letting Rohn go now gives him a two-week head start on finding a job with another organization before all the other soon-to-be-unemployed coaches hit the job market.
Bobby Valentine would come back for the right amount of money and the right situation, because he’s an ego-driven jerk.
He’s also a great manager. This is a man who took the 2000 Mets to the World Series with an outfield of Derek Bell, Jay Payton, and Benny Agabayani. He’s a master of understanding his personnel, of squeezing the best performance out of his players by platooning them, switching the lineup constantly, keeping everyone on their toes. Players hate hate hate him, but he gets results. And he sounds like Kermit the Frog.
Seth,
Valentine sounds from that description the kind of manager players hate when they are losing and love when they win.
I was more interested in how he uses the bullpen, his propensity to bunt in bad situations, his ideas on giving bad players to much playing time, and his devotion to platoon matchups that aren’t there (i.e. sitting snelling for bohn or morse).
Maybe it was Dan Rohn’s decision to install the “aggressive baserunning” philosophy. Maybe it was Dan Rohn who wanted Carl Everett and continued to roll him out there when it was obvious he was done. Maybe it was Dan Rohn who didn’t want to change the lineup. Maybe it was Dan Rohn who wanted to play Willie Bloomquist every day. Maybe it was Dan Rohn who didn’t let Adam Jones play every day. I’m sure I’m forgetting more than a few follies, but you get the idea.
I also meant to say in the above post, if Hargrove is gone in 3 weeks, why do the M’s care if Hassey is in the right spot as being Hargrove’s Bench coach.
The only way that matters is if Grover is back next year.
My only comfort is “In Dave we trust.”
Rotoworld’s take:
Mariners fired administrative coach Dan Rohn; announced bench coach Ron Hassey would not be offered a contract for the 2007 season.
Hassey decided to leave his post immediately. The Mariners haven’t announced who will be replacing him. These should be the first in a series of changes in Seattle. Both GM Bill Bavasi and manager Mike Hargrove are among the worst in baseball at their positions, and the club needs to go outside of the organization to clean up the mess.
95-Well for all we know both Hargrove and Hassey were told they wouldn’t be back, Hassey decided to leave now and begin his job search early.
Hargrove being the manager elected to finish it out. With so few games left that wouldn’t shock me. Hargrove takes a lot of pride in what he does, so im sure he wants to finish what he started.
That is just speculation on my part, but I think there is a good possibility something like that happened.
Well, yeah Hassey was told he wouldn’t be back next year and choose to leave now. That’s common knowledge now. I just don’t get the quotes, about Hargrove being in on these decisions.
Rohn’s duties as “administrative†coach were to coordinate scouting reports and be ready to take over as manager if Hargrove was fired in-season. With only two weeks left in a season, there was no need for Rohn to perform either duty.
Save a little salary where you can — first thing you know, you may have enough set aside to buy the big-ass stud TOR pitcher you’ve always dreamed about.
Although I don’t know why the M’s made this move, I am glad they made it now. Dave’s assertion that the team has its reasons, and the suspicions he’s keeping to himself, are good enough for me to conclude the organization is not content to merely play out the string. I hope this move tells the team (and its fans):
Yes, there’s only 17 games left and we’re out of contention, but we still have some objectives. A couple of guys don’t help us meet those objectives, so we let them go. Now, let’s go play some baseball.
Hargrove’s a DUD. His managerial skills and player development just don’t make a winning combination. Get rid of him.
100′s theory in a nutshell: pour encourager les autres.
Dave “may have his suspicions”, and won’t share with us???? What is he, a journalist???? This is a blog, damnit. Gossip.
The idea that firing Rohn wasn’t all about Hargrove is obviously missplaced. Bavasi made that point, albeit vaguely. It may not have been a power play on Hargrove’s part, per se, but Rohn certainly didn’t have the power to stay. Personally, I think that the pseudo-position created for Rohn was not going to be renewed (there’s the obvious), and Hargrove was more than happy to see Rohn go. Rohn being there has been a slap in the face to Hargrove the entire season, and I’m sure Rohn knew exactly how this played with the ‘grove.
Hargrove was probably given the option to keep Rohn around, and when given the opportunity, kicked him to the curb.
Also, I think the Hassey resignation (rather than firing, since it was his choice) was all about Bavasi telling us Hargrove will finish the season – and 100% positive won’t be back next year.
I also think that Rohn will interview for the manager’s job.
Hargrove probably just got tired of hearing “Nice job, Skip” from Rohn after ever loss. The organization’s handling of this is interesting when you compare the effusive atta-boys Hassey’s gotten from both Bavasi and Hargrove and the tomb-like silence on Rohn. One article described Rohn as appearing ‘shell-shocked’.
Meanwhile, Grover’s down to just 2 of his original coaching staff that came on when he was hired. Titanic‘s running out of deckchairs, skipper.
It seems entirely likely that Grover was handed the same option Hassey was and turned it down.
As long as Grover doesn’t sit Ichiro out of spite to prevent him from reaching 200 hits, I don’t really mind.
I agree with 98, though with a dash of 98 thrown in.
As for us trying to extrapolate too far from this, it’s the first indication of change that we desparately seek. The season is toast, we just lost 10-0, and we’re anxiously looking forward to the next checkpoint, at season’s end, when Grover and/or Bavasi may be canned.
Correction: “I agree with 97, with the last half of 98 thrown in.”
Let’s start the “Kim Ng for GM!” campaign now! Please?
Jimmie
Piniella would be AHHHH-sum, but why get him when Casey Stengel is still available?
Earl Weaver is even more available.
Dick Williams and Whitey Herzog are available.
I’m guessing at this point in time it’s about FO practicality more than anything else. The managerial purging process has started – with Hargrove and/or Bavasi set to leave in 2.5 weeks time – in the hope that longtime Mariner fans don’t give up on next year already: “Hey folks, we hear you, and change is coming – don’t forget to buy your ’07 season tickets now!” All about the almighty $$$$.
Bavasi’s not going anywhere this offseason, from what I can tell — it seems a pretty safe bet that he’s got one more year, at least — but if we were going to wiggle our collective nose and make a change, my vote (along with, I gather, Dave’s and Derek’s) would be for Chris Antonetti.
Dave, since it sounds like you’re aware of who else is going (or at least, some of that group), I’m curious — is anyone going to be swept out who you think shouldn’t be?
Let’s start the “Kim Ng for GM!†campaign now! Please?
With this front office? Please.
Either they think she’s some sort of submissive China Doll…or when they find out she ISN’T, they’ll show her the door so fast that she’d think a hurricane blew her out of the way.
I’m curious — is anyone going to be swept out who you think shouldn’t be?
Or not swept out that SHOULD be…
The fans for next year are already gone. There’s a long lag time. You still hear fans at the park pining for guys like Bret Boone. They don’t know who any of these guys are except for Ichiro and Princess Willie. Next year’s attendance will be at least 10% off of this year.
Fans don’t come out to see exhibitions of sterling baseball manoevers; they come out to root for their guys. These aren’t their guys yet. But they’re getting there, some of them; they’ll get there a lot faster if they win a little. But if this team doesn’t win, say, 85 games next year, they’re in big, big trouble. Virtually none of those fans have ever heard of Dan Rohn or even Bill Bavasi; most of them are only faintly aware of Hargrove.
I think Hargrove will get fired in late May of next year at the earliest.
I heard that Rohn was fired because he accidently stepped on Ichiro’s toe in the dugout and they weren’t able to work it out.
Was anybody else a little amazed that Piniella sacrificed the talent of the team in Tampa Bay just to escape Seattle?
The fact that TB had to send Randy Winn to Seattle just to hire him undermined his credibility as a “winner.” And that goes for any coach (or in the NFL, Coach/GM) who gives up talent/draft picks just to join a new team. No coach is worth a Randy Winn or a 2nd round NFL pick.
I think RedGrover should kick his hat around the infield before the year is over. Give the crowd a treat, throw them a bone.
As for next season, I just want a winning team that doesn’t flirt with the 500 line throughout the second half. Grover, no Grover, just gimmie some substantial wins. I have to admit I’d like to see his ass thrown to the curb though. This team needs a vicious kick in the pants to get it going again .
Let’s start the “Kim Ng for GM!†campaign now! Please?
A girl??? I charge of a baseball team??? Whaaaaaa???
#70 I also predict that Ichiro will refuse to sign again with Seattle if Hargrove returns to ruin another year of his career…
Ichiro is 16th in runs scored in AL. 32nd in OBPCT. At .752 OPS he’s 54th in the league. Nothing special, hardly even average.
His OPS is fifth on the team if you include Snelling. He as two RBIS in his last 215 at bats.
How did Hargrove ruin his year? By letting him play?
His performance suggests he’s part of the problem, not the solution.
What Would Steve Kelley Do?
Example 1,142 in the Rob Neyer Is Out Of Touch With Baseball trial, from his chat today:
Peter (Champaign, IL): Hey Rob – Mariner’s admin question: does the firing of Dan Rohn and Ron Hassey suggest that Hargrove will be in Seattle next season (Dan Rohn being used as a scapegoat)?
SportsNation Rob Neyer: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Hargrove will be back, unless Bavasi isn’t (in which case bets are off). It’s pretty clear that the firings of Hassey and Rohn mean Grover’s in good shape for the moment.
According to Rob, it’s pretty clear that the firing of Mike Hargrove’s best friend in the world means that Hargrove is in good shape for the moment.
Then, there’s this:
Jack, Philly: J.J. Putz will turn 30 about the time he reports to spring training. Are we redefining “young” to mean “hasn’t thrown many major league innings? On that note, how do we explain his incredible surge in K rate? Is it likely he could duplicate this?
SportsNation Rob Neyer: (2:13 PM ET ) I’m sorry. I hate it when people do that, and then I did it myself. Anyway, I think the surge in his K-rate is mostly due to going from starting to relieving. That often has a salutary effect on a pitcher’s stuff.
You know the last time J.J. Putz started a game? 2002. He was converted to a reliever in 2003, where he posted a 6.28 K/9 in Tacoma. He upped that to 6.71 K/9 in Seattle in ’04, then posted a 6.75 K/9 in Seattle last year. So, for three years, the move from starting to relieving didn’t really do anything to help Putz’s strikeout rate.
Maybe, just maybe, it was the splitter that he started throwing in April?
Rob, just retire. Please.
How did Hargrove ruin his year?
I can only extrapolate from how Hargrove’s ruined my year. And that’s happened by watching him ‘work’ around 100 games this season and having to listen to him in post-game (and watch those fingers head, unerringly, for his nose and ears, night after night…) for perhaps a total of 5 hours since April.
I can only imagine the horror of 70+ hours a week, up close and personal, with Grover.
Steve would call his oldest friend, Ducky Ponds.
Be careful, Dave. You know that sort of thing will get back to Rob in an email or a chat.
At least Neyer will answer an e-mail should you send him one…
I dunno. ESPN.com slows my computer to speeds of glacial proportions, so I go there as little as possible.
So who’s managing the Ranier’s next year?
Be careful, Dave. You know that sort of thing will get back to Rob in an email or a chat.
Unless he’s going to try to suffocate me with flanel, I’m not particularly worried.
now that you are online Dave, confess your suspicions.
Dave, since it sounds like you’re aware of who else is going (or at least, some of that group), I’m curious — is anyone going to be swept out who you think shouldn’t be?
Yea.
Look, suffocation by flannel is no laughing matter.
My father was killed by a rogue flannel suffocation gang. I’ll never forget his muffled cries for help.
Honestly, I’m waiting for Rob Neyer’s Big Book Of Everything I Think I Know About Baseball But Joe Morgan Knows More Than I Do And That Should Dissuade You From Buying The Book.
I have it on my Amazon Wish List, along with the Joe Sheehan’s new book: Because They Stole My Girlfriend And Kicked Sand In My Face: 1,001 Reasons I Irrationally Hate The Mariners.
In all seriousness, I’m starting to think a few people I don’t want out are about to be shown the door, and it worries me that with this ownership it dooms this team to another 4-5 years of 70-75 win seasons rather than the potential for 80-85 next year.
In the first place, Dave, I’m not a stathead; I’m enthusiastic of the research that smart fellows are doing, but I’m largely ignorant of it, have to have things explained to me and take them on faith. So any annoying characteristics of my posts are my own and oughtn’t tar the poor statheads.
Second, I haven’t jumped to any conclusions! I feel like I’m repeating myself here and you are reading more into what I am saying than what I have said. I am baffled, and discouraged, and in the first post in which I expressed that I didn’t come to conclusions, I asked why, and acknowledged explicitly that of course I didn’t know what was going on behind the scenes, to which you replied that there were things going on behind the scenes that I didn’t know. Well, yeah, I said as much. I already answered your question, too: I lean toward discouragement because this organization hasn’t earned trust with a reliable record of sensible behavior. With no information other than all the praise we’ve heard for Rohn in the past, I leap to no conclusions but yeas, have a bad feeling about it. What is so perplexing or offensive about that, even if you happen to have information that allows you to understand the action? If there’s something about my tone that rubs you the wrong way, I am sorry — really — but I think you’re overreacting to what I’ve said.
I wasn’t really responding to you specifically, scraps. I just picked your post, apparently poorly, as an example of “the sky is falling” comments we saw at the beginning of the thread.
Sorry for the mischaracterization of your comments.
Oh. Well I guess I overreacted then. Shoot.
The sky isi falling, though.
138. My only comfort in all of this is that Mike Hargrove is not the worst manager in the history of the Seattle Mariners. I’m not even sure he’s in the top 5. On the other hand, I guess that means it is possible that the team could fire him and actually hire someone who is worse.
I’m floored by how often people ask Dave to give up the details he knows and specifically doesn’t state. Does any of us really think Dave will still have his connections if he tells us things that were supposed to be in confidence? Goodness. Think about it for a fraction of a second.
Are there any good candidates to replace Grover? Is there some sort of proper Manager Evaluation method? Does Baseball Prospectus or Hardball Times deal with this?
Top five worst Mariner managers:
5. Bill Plummer
4. Chuck Cottier
3. Bob Melvin
2. Darrell Johnson
1.
Lou PiniellaMaury WillsCome to think of it, Dick Williams was pretty awful when he was here, too.
I’m floored by how often people ask Dave to give up the details he knows and specifically doesn’t state. Does any of us really think Dave will still have his connections if he tells us things that were supposed to be in confidence? Goodness. Think about it for a fraction of a second.
They can ask all they want. As long as I don’t oblige, no harm, no foul.
Are there any good candidates to replace Grover? Is there some sort of proper Manager Evaluation method? Does Baseball Prospectus or Hardball Times deal with this?
Evaluating managers is a daunting task. There’s been some interesting work on the subject done lately, but their methods were based on information that can really only be compiled after a manager has had a long, subtstantial career.
The interview process is probably still the best way to evaluate potential candidates, and since none of us will be invited to that process, we don’t really have any strong grounds to argue with whoever the pick, unless its someone who already has a horrifying track record that we can evaluate them off of.
Basically, as long as we avoid Dusty Baker or Don Baylor, we’re probably okay.
A girl??? I charge of a baseball team??? Whaaaaaa???
whoa, like, that would really rock Keith Hernandez’ world…
142. Swap Plummer up to the 2 spot and get Jim Snyder on there somewhere. Darrell Johnson should get points just for surviving the first three years with the likes of John Montague and Glenn Abbott as his best pitchers. Romo wasn’t too bad.
Wills is available, though.
In all seriousness, I’m starting to think a few people I don’t want out are about to be shown the door, and it worries me that with this ownership it dooms this team to another 4-5 years of 70-75 win seasons rather than the potential for 80-85 next year.
Um, going from “below .500 but not terrible” to “contending for your division” just isn’t that hard- so why set the goal for 2007 so low? With the Mariners alone, it’s happened twice in recent memory: 1995 and 2000. I could come up with a bunch of other examples without really working very hard.
And ya know what the funny part is? Both of those years, Chuck Armstong was in Mariner management… and in 2000, Howard Lincoln was the CEO. In fact, both of them presided over the longest run of sustained success the franchise has had (2000-2003). So I don’t get the “OH NOES WE’RE TEH D00M3D” part if there are severe shakeups in the organization. That also strikes me as an overreaction, as there’s evidence that directly contradicts the idea that Lincoln + Armstrong = franchise death.
Hmm. I think the M’s should go after Hendu for the soon-to-be vacant managerial spot. He seems to know a lot about how the game is played. I like his law of averages, especially. That’d really motivate a lot of the M’s players!
What about that master of ineptitude Del Carndall?
He should be right up there. On those rare instances where the M’s won, he’d have this clueless look, like the win came out of nowhere and was just dumb luck, which it usually was.
I think Derek would look good in the uniform. And he’d have so much fun benching Princess Willie…
Except, I think the best quality of a good field manager is being biddable. The GM has a plan for the team, but it will never work if the field manager keeps screwing it up by plattoning everyone with Willie. Or letting Mateo try to get a double play. Or saving Putz for a save situation in a tie game at home.
#142 If you go by winning percentage, the all-time worst was Marty Martinez, whose winning percentage was .000. I actually don’t think Darrell Johnson was the 2nd worst all-time Mariner manager, even if the winning percentage doesn’t support my claim. I’d replace him with Del Crandell, and most likely re-swizzle the list a bit. Its hard to see how any manager for a newly constituted MLB club can do well.
Um, going from “below .500 but not terrible†to “contending for your division†just isn’t that hard- so why set the goal for 2007 so low? With the Mariners alone, it’s happened twice in recent memory: 1995 and 2000. I could come up with a bunch of other examples without really working very hard.
And ya know what the funny part is? Both of those years, Chuck Armstong was in Mariner management… and in 2000, Howard Lincoln was the CEO. In fact, both of them presided over the longest run of sustained success the franchise has had (2000-2003). So I don’t get the “OH NOES WE’RE TEH D00M3D†part if there are severe shakeups in the organization. That also strikes me as an overreaction, as there’s evidence that directly contradicts the idea that Lincoln + Armstrong = franchise death.
Good, relevant points, particularly the latter.
I still think Armstrong and Lincoln have flaws in their baseball management styles (and aren’t as good as they think they are), but it’s been empirically shown that they can preside over contending teams.
I still think Armstrong and Lincoln have flaws in their baseball management styles (and aren’t as good as they think they are), but it’s been empirically shown that they can preside over contending teams.
Ding.
But I would also think that 2004-2006 have also shown them they aren’t as good as they thought they were. Even if you go by the standards of comparing 2000-2001 to today in financial terms (which is usually the criticism, that Lincoln only cares about the bottom line), there are less beans to count today than there were in 2000-2001, because attendance is down dramatically.
#152: Sure, and if you like using history as your guide, Jeff Cirillo has proven he can hit. We ought to give him a four year contract. Maybe that Bret Boone fella would be a good pickup too.
The baseball world’s changed in the last few years. Billy Beane’s been running rings around the M’s lately at 70¢ on the dollar.
Um, going from “below .500 but not terrible†to “contending for your division†just isn’t that hard- so why set the goal for 2007 so low?
Because 85 seems like the outer limits of what this team can do in 2007 with Bavasi/Hargrove or Bavasi/Filler Manager. And 85 is contending in this division.
And ya know what the funny part is? Both of those years, Chuck Armstong was in Mariner management… and in 2000, Howard Lincoln was the CEO. In fact, both of them presided over the longest run of sustained success the franchise has had (2000-2003). So I don’t get the “OH NOES WE’RE TEH D00M3D†part if there are severe shakeups in the organization. That also strikes me as an overreaction, as there’s evidence that directly contradicts the idea that Lincoln + Armstrong = franchise death.
1998 and 2004. The M’s went from contenders to sub-.500 in one year. There’s just as much evidence that Lincoln and Armstrong sent this team off the cliff.
The baseball world’s changed in the last few years. Billy Beane’s been running rings around the M’s lately at 70¢ on the dollar.
But not anymore, really. Their minor league system is depleted, and he didn’t pull the trigger on a Zito deal, so he’s counting on the Yankees giving him a draft pick. Meanwhile, the smart and rich teams have caught up to him with identifying decent player-personnel.
Right now, the A’s are only in the lead because a decent bullpen, a couple of above-average starting pitchers, and a retread named Frank Thomas. Crosby is looking like a bust. Chavez hasn’t been that much better than Beltre. And Marco Scutaro has had more ABs this year than WFB.
This may be the worst team he’s fielded in years, and it really looks like the A’s aren’t going to win the division pennant next year with what they have. Right now, even with the albatross contracts, I’d rather be the M’s than the A’s.
Isn’t it maybe a tad early to be making win total predictions for 2007 – considering we have no idea what players will be on the roster? The FO has got to view this offseason as one of the most critical in team history.
Because 85 seems like the outer limits of what this team can do in 2007 with Bavasi/Hargrove or Bavasi/Filler Manager.
If Bavasi can’t do what Woody Woodward or Pat Gillick did, why is that a persuasive argument for keeping him, aside from the “Senior management so incompetent they’ll hire Cam Bonifay, given the chance” argument (which belies the fact that given the chance, they hired Woodward, Gillick and Bavasi, not Bonifay)? Either he’s good enough to build a contender from a flawed team that has some interesting talent, like many, many other GMs have managed to do, given adequate money and opportunity to make the right choices- or he isn’t. This isn’t the Soviet Union, and we don’t need a Five Year Plan.
And 85 is contending in this division.
Know how many times a team’s won this division with a .525 or worse winning percentage (the 1994 strike year aside)? Zero. You have to win 90 to have any shot. If your goal is to have the 2007 Mariners emulate the San Diego Padres in 2005, you’re setting your goals too low.
What about Ron Fairly? He can remind the players that if they hit the ball just a few feet farther, it will be a home run!
142
Why was Cottier considered so bad on your list? I mean he’s gotta get bonus points for the all time non-Lou meltdown when Winfield practically took a full swing and the ump said he checked. He was throwin’ all kinds of stuff on the field, lol.
Anyone remember that? Were talking REAL old school if you do
Re #132: I was afraid of that. I hope there aren’t too many, or — any major mistakes in there?
Dave said:
Pretty much everyone who won’t be back next year knows it by now… I don’t think you’re going to see a “take more pitches” philosophy instilled. Bavasi likes aggressive hitters…
Reading between the lines, Bavasi is back next year.
Which is fine with me, but I’ll be sure to tell the sales person who calls about renewing my season tickets that I’m going to wait until I hear who replaces Hargrove before re-upping for 07.
162
Bavasi must really be enamored with REALLY low obp’s and short games…sigh
He probably thinks that patient hitters invite pitchers’ counts.
#156: But not anymore, really. Their minor league system is depleted…
I’ve been hearing about Oakland’s eminent demise when Giambi went to NYY and then again when they weren’t going to be able to afford to pay the big three to keep the rotation together.
Yet somehow, Beane has always been able to muddle through.
I hope you’ll excuse my skepticism.
My main feeling with all of this, is to feel bad for Rohn. It seemed like he was a good soldier, and paid his dues with the organization, only to be kicked out the door like a bum getting tossed out of a fancy restaurant.
Yet somehow, Beane has always been able to muddle through.
“Muddling through” is probably not a bad characterization, given that despite all their regular-season success, the A’s have yet to win a playoff series this millennium, are in the bottom five in attendance figures for all of MLB, and are generally boring to watch. (Yes, I know, the last part is subjective.)
#167: Credit abysmally bad base running with the A’s losses in 2001 (Giambi who did not slide, the famous Jeter play) and 2003 (Byrnes shoving Varitek instead of touching home plate, and Tejada stopping between third and home expecting to be awarded a run on an interference call).
In 2002, the A’s should have skipped Zito’s final regular season start and given him 2 starts in the ALDS against the Twins, who were dismal at hitting left-handed pitching that year. But Zito’s manager thought it better to add another “W” to his regular season totals and shore up his Cy Young chances.
As for attendance, I’ve been to a few games at the Coliseum. If you had to watch baseball in that excuse for a ballpark, you might not be lining up to buy tickets either.
As for boring, I’d love to watch the M’s bore me that way. The excitement of sub-.500 baseball year after year is just too much for me to take.
As for attendance, I’ve been to a few games at the Coliseum. If you had to watch baseball in that excuse for a ballpark, you might not be lining up to buy tickets either.
I have never been inside the Coliseum, but I find it hard to believe that it’s any worse than the Kingdome–and people were lining up there when the M’s were a playoff contender.
The Coliseum’s nowhere near as bad as the Kingdome was. I kind of like it, to tell the truth. I spent many a happy afternoon there watching my mid-eighties M’s get the crap pounded out of them by Mark McGwire et al. when I was living in the Bay Area. Of course, that’s before the Raiders came back and ruined it, but still. Faux-retro isn’t everything.
Re Dave (#79) “Why isn’t it natural to just say “wow, I don’t have any idea why this happened, and without further information, I’m not going to jump to any conclusionsâ€?”
Would that it were so, about human beings, in ANY situation. Or were you thinking we’d just go completely against our nature for this one topic?
Re; Scraps (#74), I agree. It’s not about whether Rohn leaving the org now is good or bad for Rohn. Maybe it does give him a 2 week jump on finding another job. (oh yeah, cuz loads of teams are looking NOW, in this 2 week period, for their next managers). Maybe it gives him a well-deserved vacation. But one thing we know it does is makes him have to carry with him, into his next job interview, the fact that he was fired. Publicly. 2 weeks before the end of a season. With no fuzzy ‘he did a great job but this just wasn’t the position for him’ comments like Hassey got. And apparently completely by surprise based on his quotes.
Which, rightly or wrongly, gives the impression that a) Rohn did something horribly bad, and b) the Ms front office felt it was bad enough that they had to do this now, publicly and by surprise, instead of letting him coast it out for 2 weeks. If he didn’t do something horribly wrong that, if left unchecked for 2 more weeks would have caused financial or public relations ruin to the team, then, well, then it just gives the impression that the Ms don’t value loyalty or service in an organization when it comes to coaches.
“Good seats” in Oakland, front row seats, are about a mile and a half from the foul lines. Across the bay the Giants have a wonderful new ballpark with excellent sight lines.
Imagine if the pre-Safeco M’s had to compete with an MLB team with a fan-friendly ballpark in Bellevue. When they were in the Kingdome, as bad as the Kingdome was, they were the only game in town.
For what it’s worth –
It was noted that Dan Rohn was wearing his uniform in the dugout during games, which is apparently a violation of MLB policy. Having seen Dan over the years in Tacoma, I can understand why he may have wanted a more “hands on” role than the “administrative coach” position would have allowed.
With the Rainiers, Dan was very much a “hands on” manager — coaching third base, very involved in the game, and his players. Given his personality and inclinations, it is hard for me to imagine Dan Rohn in a suit, out of the dugout, game after game.
Despite the obvious sting, Dan handled the firing with a lot of class.
Here’s wishing him the best of luck, wherever he ends up — probably the best manager that the Tacoma Rainers have had, a tried and true baseball man, and a class act.
My only question is why was Dan Rohn “fired” while Ron Hassey was given the option of staying until the end or leaving now? Why does it sound more like Rohn wasn’t given the choice?
#174: Yep.
For those of us old enough to remember Watergate:
“Today, in one of the most difficult decisions of my presidency, I accepted the resignations of two of my closest associates in the White House — Bob Haldeman, John Ehrlichman — two of the finest public servants it has been my privilege to know.
“The counsel to the president, John Dean, has also resigned.”
- RN 4/30/73
Maybe it does give him a 2 week jump on finding another job. (oh yeah, cuz loads of teams are looking NOW, in this 2 week period, for their next managers).
With the minor league season over (except for the playoffs), organizations are certainly looking now for their next minor league managers and staff.
As for major league coaching jobs, organizations will fill most of their vacancies by the third or fourth week of October. Organizations that will have major league coaching jobs open are certainly identifying candidates now, even if the coaches currently holding those positions will not know that they will need to look for new jobs until the first week of October.
Larry Stone says that Hargrove’s job is safe for next year, and that Rohn was fired at Hargrove’s insistence over personality (and coaching decision) clashes with Hargrove. Here’s the link:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/6097214p-5344126c.html
Now, if you’re gonna can the guy in the offseason, why would you fire someone likely to be an internal candidate to replace him? Dave? Anyone?
#177: You’re quoting Larry Larue at the TNT, not Larry Stone. Larue says this about Rohn’s firing:
“the decision on Rohn, who was in a newly created administrative coaching position, was more about a clash of personalities. Sources said Rohn disagreed with Hargrove’s managing and, worse, talked to other coaches and players about it. When that got back to Hargrove, Rohn’s departure was a matter of time, sources said.”
Articles in the P-I (Baseball Notes) and Times (Geoff Baker) both also indicate that Hargrove is staying on, and that one indication of this is that he and Bavasi have creating a list and are starting THEIR search for a new bench coach.
And Art Thiel has an article that many of us would also agree with, that this is akin to finding a problem with your car and thinking that removing the hood ornament will fix it.
So…I like Rohn better knowing he had the audacity (and baseball intelligence) to disagree with Hargrove’s decisions. And it doesn’t surprise me that he didn’t have the patience or political correctness to just suck it up, stay silent. I watch that kind of BS behavior every day, ALL day at my current job and I can’t seem to exercise patience or political correctness in that situation either.
And, we’ve heard here, all year long that Hargrove would be out soon, and on this thread that these firings didn’t mean he was staying. Yet now there are 3 newspaper articles and an already-begun search for a new bench coach that would strongly indicate that he’s coming back next year. Truly, if there were ANY thoughts in the Ms organization that Hargrove would not be back next year, there is no way they’d be thinking ahead to who is going to be his bench coach next year.
While I’ve no doubt that Dave’s inside info is accurate 99.99% of the time, I’ve got to believe that in this case – even Dave is deluded by wishful thinking when he assures us that Hargrove is gone…any day now. (or, maybe he should just warn those inside sources at the Ms that he talks to, the ones who think Hargrove SHOULD be gone, that they better not get caught saying it or they’re toast).
Why Rohn would have been a good choice for manager = “Sources said Rohn disagreed with Hargrove’s managing and, worse, talked to other coaches and players about it.”
Dave, if you are still reading this post, what percent are you confident that Hargrove won’t be back next year. Its really looking more and more likely that he will be to me.
178–We gave Melvin an extension before we fired him. The M’s don’t like to leak decisions like that to the public…
There’s a difference between extending a guy, and letting him hire a new guy. In the first case, you’re only screwing with one guy, in the second, you’re screwing with two. But hey, the Ms have shown they’re a classy organization like that.
I wonder if Wilson would like to manage? I am sure that he would be good at that and has some better smarts than the Grover.
So…I like Rohn better knowing he had the audacity (and baseball intelligence) to disagree with Hargrove’s decisions. And it doesn’t surprise me that he didn’t have the patience or political correctness to just suck it up, stay silent. I watch that kind of BS behavior every day, ALL day at my current job and I can’t seem to exercise patience or political correctness in that situation either
What? As much as Dan Rohn was right in that Hargrove’s decision making and managing were both horrible, to be sowing seeds of dissention by talking about it openly with the other coaches (Hargrove’s coaches) is just ridiculously stupid. There are people you talk to when you don’t agree with how someone else is handling things / doing things. You don’t bitch about it around the water cooler and not expect some reprecussions when it gets back to the Boss.
If it’s true that’s what Rohn was doing, he deserved to be fired.
And another story asserting that’s what Rohn was doing. By Larry Stone, who a) the authors here like and trust, and b) also believes Hargrove will be back – because Bavasi is solidly in his corner.
Larry Stone article from Sunday
Of course, who knew that Rohn was to blame for the losses this season, all that undermining he was doing. I wonder how he had time to do that LAST season when Hargrove was losing and the players hated him then as well? Cart? Meet horse.
You know what? Beane is all smoke and mirrors. Sorry, until he wins more than a division race or the AL Wild Card, I will show him some respect. Name a post season where the A’s owned anybody in Beane’s time there? Funniest yet, Stoneman is the complete 180 of Beane and he seems to do okay every year (except this one).
I’d say I have faith that next year will be better. I say this because Hargrove won’t be back if Hassey leaving is any indication of things to come.