Manny trade rumors, I lash out at the messenger
Buster Olney at ESPN reports on the talks for Manny Ramirez. The M’s aren’t involved because.. I don’t know. They want to block Snelling with someone horrible to make me even more miserable.
Who’s in the bidding?
• The San Francisco Giants, who might have to involve a third team to become a serious player in this market, or perhaps swallow some of Boston’s worst contracts, like that of pitcher Matt Clement.
• The San Diego Padres, who can build a deal around reliever Scott Linebrink.
• The Dodgers, who are starved for power hitters, loaded with prospects and could probably offer the best possible package of youngsters, from third baseman Andy LaRoche to pitcher Chad Billingsley to outfielder Matt Kemp.
If the Red Sox manage to loot a bunch of top-tier prospects off the Dodgers, I’m going to vomit with disgust. One? Not so bad. But really, if they get a whole package of deliciousness that includes Matt Kemp, that team’s going to be ridiculously well-prepared for the next few years.
And, because I’m feeling depressed and obnoxious, here’s this on David Ortiz without Manny.
“That guy will draw about 200 walks next year without Manny hitting behind him,” said one scout. “I don’t care who it is who bats fourth instead of Manny — J.D. Drew, or Wily Mo Pena, whoever — he won’t be as dangerous as Manny was, because Manny can hit good pitching.”
Really. 200 walks. The single-season all-time leader for walks was Barry Bonds in 2004. He had 232. Followed by Bonds 2002, with 198, and Bonds 2001 with 177.
In 2004 you could have batted a bowl of cream of mushroom soup behind Bonds and he’d have been better protected, and he only walked 232 times. In 2002 he was frequently protected by BENITO SANTIAGO because Bonds was batting behind Jeff Kent. In 2001 he had decent protection with Kent behind him and he still got walked 177 times.
David Ortiz will not walk 200 times next year. You know how we know this? Because it’s only happened once in all of baseball history.
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Bavasi, I sure hope you are operating under the radar here…
We don’t have the chips to throw to the Boston area though.
Do you really wanna give up Adam Jones for Manny Ramirez?
I don’t.
In 2004 you could have batted a bowl of Cream of Mushroom soup behind Bonds and he’d have been better protected
The bowl of soup has a really small strike zone and no power, so while it might get on base reasonably often, it will never knock anyone in. So I’d bat the soup ahead of Bonds.
You need to get yourself some more flavorful, full-bodied soup.
if it makes you feel better, over the weekend the Boston Herald said: “The Orioles, Rangers and Phillies are looking the hardest for outfield big boppers right now, but the Dodgers, without J.D. Drew, still are looking as well, along with the Giants and Mets. The Mariners should not be ignored, either, if only for the Mike Hargrove factor (Hargrove was Ramirez’ manager in Cleveland).”
But can that bowl of soup field six positions like Dear Utilityman Willie “Boom Boom” Bloomquist? Of course not.
And that’s why Dear Utilityman gets a $2M extension, while that bowl of cream of mushroom soup gets made into tuna noodle casserole.
and from the SF Chronicle:
“Sources on Sunday confirmed that the Giants are among the teams talking seriously to the Red Sox about their disgruntled, temperamental yet unquestionably talented slugger.
A bigger potential obstacle [than money] for the Giants acquiring Ramirez is his right to veto any deal because he has more than 10 years of major-league tenure and five with the same club. He would have to approve San Francisco, and 10 months ago, after he reportedly demanded a trade, he told MLB.com, “I know the American League system. That’s one reason I don’t want to go to the National League.”
Another obstacle is the talent Boston would seek in return. The Red Sox are seeking relief help (so are the Giants), a shortstop (Omar Vizquel is staying put) and prospects (the Giants’ best hope). One source said the Giants and Red Sox have discussed a trade between the teams and possible three-way deals. The talks were described as preliminary. Boston is unlikely to move Ramirez before sewing up free-agent outfielder J.D. Drew, whom the Giants are not pursuing.”
We do have the chips. Boston gave away or used up every one of their pitching prospects last year trying to stay in contention with a crumbling team. I mean, they sent away Josh Bard AND Cla Meredith for Doug frickin Mirabelli. They brought up every starter and watched them either get shelled or go down with injury/disease.
Now that Lowe is down, Campillo is in Texas, and Harris has left, we’re not as deep as a month ago, but I think just shedding Manny’s salary and getting some live arms would be good for them. Maybe I’m high, but Livingston, Baek/Woods, one of our catchers (whose initials are not J.C.) and Soriano might swing it. Or something like that, anyhow. Maybe that would be overpaying, I dunno. It sure would be nice to have that guy in our lineup.
My favorite part was this:
Executives with other teams say that in order to move Ramirez, Boston will have to come to grips with the idea that they will not get back major league talent equal to that of Ramirez; rather, they might have to settle for a deal much like the Gary Sheffield trade the Yankees made early in November, when they got three pitching prospects from Detroit.
Oh, woe is Boston! They might have to accept cheap, underpaid talent in return for Manny.
The Dodgers really are too loaded with prospects right now and have the sort of front office that probably undervalues them, so I could see that happening.
Colletti:Manny::Sabean:Pierzynski ??
The Mariners should not be ignored, either, if only for the Mike Hargrove factor (Hargrove was Ramirez’ manager in Cleveland).
Considering his no-trade clause, I suppose that could become an issue. However, the M’s win-loss record the last couple of years can’t be too attractive to Manny.
“David Ortiz will not walk 200 times next year. You know how we know this? Because it’s only happened once in all of baseball history.”
Yeah and besides the fact that those 232 walks were to a 7-time all star compared to Ortiz who has never won it.
I don’t want to rosterbate, but think there’s any way the Giants and Red Sox might consider a three-way deal that would send Sexson to SF, Manny to Seattle, and prospects all over the place?
Obviously, it wouldn’t help the Giants as much as having Manny, but if they could get Sexson for a couple of B-prospects while the M’s were sending Jones||Doyle and Clement to Boston….
I mean 7-time MVP. Whoops.
I really doubt that we would send 3 of our top prospects nontheless our #1 pick last year for Manny. The deal would have to send maybe Jones and Snelling not Clemente and maybe somebody like Jimenez to SF.
Anyway a blockbuster involving Sexson+Prospect(s)+Soriano for Ramirez and Clement could work?
15. You would really want injury-prone Clement for basically Soriano? I would only do that if the Red Sox decided to pay for the rest of Clement’s contract plus a couple of extra million.
Ortiz won’t walk 200 times next year, but reigning AL MVP Justin Morneau might — maybe Ryan Howard too.
Yeah because he won 1 MVP Morneau will walk 147 more times. Howard might, only 92 more to reach 200. But Ortiz has the best chance even though he didn’t win the MVP 81 more times to reach 200 plus he missed a lot of games in late July-mid August.
You’re sticking your neck out there Grizz, aren’t you?
It’s happened once in 130 years, and then only to the best hitter ever not called Babe Ruth (and even that is open to debate) yet you think it might happen twice to a couple of guys in their second or third full seasons?
Although I argued with Grizz myself. I think he was being sarcastic.
Anybody think it is amusing that the Dodgers are losing Drew to the Red Sox and are now interested in trading for Manny who is being replaced by Drew. The Dodgers lose Drew and Prospects to get Manny back. Thats awesome.
Um, Derek?
“They want to block Snelling with someone horrible to make me even more miserable”
Is there a specific rumor there, or are you just afraid (like me)? I try to keep on top of things, but I hadn’t heard about replacing Snelling…
One of the better deals this year
hey! Buhner is on the HOF ballot
I’ll bet Manny makes it even more difficult for the Red Sox to trade him — at his yearly request, mind you — by vetoing any trade to an AL team not on the East Coast….because his homies are in NYC, after all…
Geez, we can find him a bunch of homies in Seattle, can’t we? Ichiro is comfortable in the Far Eastern ambience found in Seattle. Native Georgian Mike Cameron loved Seattle. Philly native Jamie Moyer adopted Seattle as his new home. Edgar Martinez still splits time here and in PR (and HE started out life in NYC, too). And so on…
This is just another reporter not researching before speaking.
It seems to me the most likely to get 200 BB next year (if anyone were to) based on last years stats would be Bonds who had 115 in 367 AB not Ortiz who had 119 in 558. I realize that the idea started with Ortiz not missing as much time and no longer having Manny protect him. 2006 was a career year in almost every individual stat for Ortiz, including walks. Ortiz has had 100 BB exactly twice in his career (13 times for Bonds). In the 3 years Bonds had the most walks (listed in header highest walks to lowest) he had SLG’s of .812, .799 and .863. Ortiz’s highest SLG. in a season is last years .636 which followed his improvement the 2 previous years (and only other years it’s topped .600). If Ortiz started the season hot next year, was sporting an .800+ SLG as late as July and didn’t fade much he might have a shot. Why should anyone beleive that Ortiz can improve his career high SLG by .164+? Ruth and Bonds are the only players to ever top .800 SLG over a season and that’s what I think it takes in order to achieve 200 BB. Ruth didn’t receive the intentional walks that Bonds did, it just wasn’t such a part of the game yet. I guess it’s mostly up to the other AL Managers whether Ortiz will be feared enough to receive 100+ IBB, but with a .6-something SLG I don’t see it happening.
Oddly though Ortiz’s OBP, SLG, (BB and HR) have improved every year for the last 5 years (6 for SLG, HR)
Once finished fifth in AL MVP voting and winning one gold glove is not a HOFer.
It’s interesting to know that Buhner “In 1995, drove in 121 runs with only 123 hits, the highest hits-to-RBI ratio in major league history for a player with more than 100 RBI” That’s the definition of clutch, I do believe. I fu@%ing miss Buhner.
Ortiz might lose that “great clutch hitter” moniker without Manny behind him, though. I have to think Ortiz gets better pitches in high leverage situations due primarily to Manny’s presence behind him.
Sure, he won’t walk 200 times, but he might walk an extra 40 times.
I think the scout was being facetious. I think he just meant Ortiz is going to walk a lot and he did at times when Manny was out of the lineups, sometimes 4 times a game.
And the whole clutch thing being owed to Manny’s presence, I think there’s something to that in that psychologically, Ortiz could feel protected, like he’s going to get a pitch to hit and stays ready for it. It certainly can’t but help but the thing is, Ortiz’s been getting big hits for the Red Sox even without Manny behind him. He got them in 2003 when he batted fifth or sixth and when the Red Sox won the World Series, he got them when he hit cleanup behind Manny. And also, I don’t buy into the notion that pitchers, who late in the game are often guys with good pitches, just give in and challenge Ortiz because Manny’s behind him in late game situations. What’s the point of fearing Manny when a hittable pitch to Ortiz could end the game and make all that fear moot? I think Ortiz has come through many times because he’s a good hitter with great bat speed who can hit good pitches, won’t miss on many mistakes and has the ability to really focus mentally. I, for one, am really unclutch because I press too much in those tight moments and I marvel at those who don’t.
I don’t really see a good fit for the Red Sox with the Giants. I sort of wonder if the Sox leaked that team’s name to the press, or allowed the Giants to, in order to give a kick in the ass to Ned.
The problem for the Sox is that while they’d love to trade Manny and get prospects that would make htem a hell of a lot better in 2009 etc when Manny’s gone they don’t want to give up 2007. It’s Schilling’s last year. It’s a year out of the prime of Ortiz. They can deal with Manny’s contract just fine. And they’ll be spending $140 million. It’s very hard for them to make a 90% effort for any particular season. Almost everything except Ortiz went wrong last year and they still won 86 games. I think, at one point in August, they had 3 starters, their closer, catcher, shortstop, left fielder and right fielder out at the same time with the centerfielder still trying to get over his thumb/hand injury and every reliever besides the closer turning to guano. And they still won 86 games.
It must be hard not to think that with middling luck and a few additions they could be a playoff team and maybe go all the way. And, I think I read at Baseball America that the Sox spent more on their draft than any other team in 2006. You could conclude that that’s enough for the future and paying Manny for now is fine.
That guy will draw about 200 walks next year without Manny hitting behind him
1. If Ortiz drew 200 walks, it would ho down as one of the all time great MLB seasons. He’d be in the company of Mantle, Ruth, and Williams. I don’t see why that’s a bad thing.
2. Maybe, just maybe, the source in question wasn’t speaking literally.
Uh huh. And maybe, just maybe, the multiple mentions of the foul mood and even the post’s title of “lashing out” should have tipped you off that that was clearly taking offense at the slightest provocation on account of said bad mood.
What, I can’t lash out at Buster too? Aww… 🙁
My favorite part happens to be where the source implies that J.D. Drew can’t hit good pitching.
“Uh huh. And maybe, just maybe, the multiple mentions of the foul mood and even the post’s title of “lashing out†should have tipped you off that that was clearly taking offense at the slightest provocation on account of said bad mood.”
No offense, but you lash out often and it’s not always kooky excess. Sorry if I was mistaken. That you went into detail about the largest walk totals in history and the groupings of hitters involved, as though you were making an actual case against it, prevented me from being tipped off. Again, sorry.
The scout may not have been being literal, but he was still being a mockable idiot. Ortiz will likely have a normal year for him next year — because “protection” means much less than people think it does — and no one will say anything; but if he happens to have an off year, of course the absence of Ramirez would confidently be blamed, because we make particular note of the things that seem to confirm the things we already believe to be true.
No disrespect to Buhner — I loved having him on the Mariners — but I think it’s also what happens when you hit .262 but more than half your hits are for extra bases, and when you have Edgar putting up a .479 onbase average in front of you.