Mini FAQ
You can thank John Hickey for this post. In one column in Tuesday’s P-I, and one post on the P-I blog, he managed to move the Mariners from a figure in the shadows to the most notable team in Orlando. Not bad for 1,000 words. Since I know you guys are going to hammer the threads with these questions, let’s do a short Q&A about what I’m hearing about the rumors going around right now.
1. Are the Mariners really going after Manny Ramirez?
Yes and no. The Mariners and Red Sox have had multiple conversations about Ramirez, but they did not come to Orlando with the intention of walking away with Ramirez as their DH. The M’s established contact with the Red Sox to set themselves up as a backup plan in case things with the Dodgers didn’t work out and they found themselves looking for suitors for Manny. During talks last night and this morning, the Red Sox asked the Dodgers for every single player on their roster and $250 billion in gold bars, or something close to it, and the Dodgers understandably walked away.
At some point after that, the Red Sox called the M’s to establish a legitimate alternative option in case the deal with LA was irreconcilable. The Mariners know that a payroll with Manny can’t also include Richie Sexson, so the Giants were hauled in as a conduit. Brian Sabean has been after Sexson for months, and since he’s also been pursuing Ramirez but lacked the necessary trade chips to get something done, a three-way deal evolved as the logical answer.
So, they talked and laid the foundations for the possibility of a deal. The idea has been explored. But, and this is a big deal, this three-way trade isn’t the #1 option on any of these teams wish lists. The Red Sox want to deal with LA and rob them of some very good young talent. The Giants want Ramirez for themselves. The Mariners just want Jason Schmidt to stop trying to get a deal that locks him up through age 86 and sign on the dotted line.
This is a backup plan for all three teams, which makes it extremely unlikely that it’s going to happen. A friend asked me tonight what I thought the odds are of this deal going down and I told him 5%, or 10% if I really optimistic that minute. Either way, it’s a long shot.
2. You’ve said that the names in Hickey’s report aren’t completely accurate. Who is involved?
Sexson is involved. Everyone else on the roster not named Felix, Betancourt, or Ichiro is up for discussion. But there’s no deal on the table – there’s not an offer that sends Jones and Putz to Boston, Ramirez and Lowry to Seattle, and Sexson to San Francisco. All those names have been mentioned in discussions, but from what I understand, that’s not the trade that would happen. That deal wouldn’t work for Boston or San Francisco, and at that price, Los Angeles would get back in the game. And once LA is back in the game, the M’s are back to being Plan B.
3. Are the M’s really going after Barry Zito?
The M’s have called every pitcher with a pulse during the past few weeks. The team source that Hickey talked to was right – if the years were the same, of course you’d be interested in the younger guy. But it was a completely hypothetical statement, because the years aren’t anywhere close to the same. Jason Schmidt is going to get 4 years and is trying to get 5. Barry Zito wants 6 and might get 7, and Zito’s going to get more money per year to boot. I’m sure the M’s have talked about Barry Zito, and I’m sure there’s no chance that they actually sign him. With the Rangers involved in the bidding, it’s in the Mariners best interest to create a public perception of significant interest from other parties, but I don’t know of any offseason plan the Mariners have created that includes Barry Zito taking the hill on opening day of 2007.
4. Tim Hudson? Adam LaRoche? Where are these names coming from?
Depending on who you talk to, the Braves and Mariners may or may not have talked about a deal this afternoon that would have swapped pitchers and first baseman and cash, and they may or may not have talked about using Atlanta in lieu of San Francisco as the third team in a Manny deal. There are a lot of deals to be made with the Braves that make a lot of sense for the Mariners – there are significantly less that makes sense for John Schuerholz and crew.
5. What do you think of all these moves?
There are so many permutations of each rumor that it’s impossible to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on potential deals. But I will say this – the M’s are talking about making the right kind of deal, and that makes me happier than anything. They’ve clearly decided that if they’re going to pay superstar prices for talent, they’re actually going to try to get a superstar for the money, and that’s the best conclusion they could have come to.
I don’t think the Mariners are going to end up with Manny Ramirez, Tim Hudson, or Adam LaRoche, but we should all love the fact that they’re trying.
When is the earliest that we could see a deal get done?
I’m just so proud of Bill Bavasi for at least talking about an impact player. This is way better then signing Sandfrog…
Niiiiiice.
When is the earliest that we could see a deal get done?
This one is so complicated, I’d say Wednesday. You’d need to find a deal that works for all three clubs, convince the Giants that they can’t land Ramirez on their own, convince the Dodgers to walk away, convince the Angels to not bid and let a division rival acquire a hall of fame hitter, get the executives to sign off on it, and then get Ramirez to waive his no-trade clause to come play on the west coast for a team that’s finished in last place three years in a row.
That’s just way too many dominoes that need to fall in one day. The Red Sox have put up a soft deadline of Wednesday to get something done, but everything would have to break just right for that to happen.
I’m just so proud of Bill Bavasi for at least talking about an impact player.
Well, to be fair, he did sign Beltre, Sexson, and Washburn to contracts that paid them like impact players. He hasn’t intentionally created a roster of mediocrities.
That deal wouldn’t work for Boston…
Putz and Jones isn’t enough for Ramirez? I know there are more elements to the actual trades being discussed, but a lot of people seemed excited about Putz + Jones for Ramirez, which seems horrible to me. In 2008, the players the Sox would get could match Ramirez in performance and save them $18M.
I’d like to see Manny as the M’s DH but at some point two years of Manny for $38M (or whatever) isn’t exactly a good deal. And giving up six years of Adam Jones under club control seems a great way to kill the future of the M’s.
It would take a number of smart *Win Now* trades, before I thought moving Jones/Putz for 2-4 Years of Manny, was a good idea.
“…a three-way deal evolved as the logical answer.
So, they talked and laid the foundations for the possibility of a deal. The idea has been explored. But, and this is a big deal, this three-way trade isn’t the #1 option on any of these teams wish lists.”
In a weird way, that this is not anyone’s preferred way of getting the deal done makes it seem more likely. A concern that I have is if Manny does come to Seattle, how will his attitude hold up if the team isn’t going well? We’ve been hearing for months from various sources about how “unhappy” Ichiro has been. I have a tough time accepting that an “unhappy” Manny would be as professional.
Ichiro is (mostly) only unhappy because the team sucks. Having Manny around makes team better. Ergo, Ichiro happy.
And if Manny gets unhappy you just buy him a new XBOX or slinky or something and he’ll be fine.
And if Manny gets unhappy you just buy him a new XBOX or slinky or something and he’ll be fine.
Or some candy
#8 and #9: LOL!!! So…Manny’s tag is 2 yrs/$38 M + toy allowance and candy money….
The idea of getting Manny for a short term makes my insides warm and fuzzy. If it happens, I’m jumping the Safeco fence and scooting the left field fence in seven or eight feet. The visitor’s bullpen is just too cramped.
Prediction: Manny will hit better against lefties than C-Rex did. I’ve got a sense for these things.
Although my opinion regarding Manny Ramirez lacks any semblance of tangibility, I nevertheless think that the acquisition of him would, in all likelihood, be detrimental toward the future of the Seattle Mariners; there’s no doubt about it.
Although my opinion regarding Manny Ramirez lacks any semblance of tangibility… there’s no doubt about it.
Jesus.
#9, too funny. Howard Lincoln: “shut up its awesome you dont know anything about baseball”
Anywhoo, whats up with Tim Hudson? Is Atlanta just a bad fit for him or did something go horribly wrong when he left Oakland?
I like any reasonable deal with Atlanta, but yeah, it’s hard to see one that would work at their end. We have folks to move, just nut at both the positions and prices that fit over there.
Why no mention of this paragraph, which was also in Hickey’s column? How likely is it that the deal largely lauded here (getting Jose Guillen) winds up costing us Doyle? (If so, maybe a good thing you never printed up those ‘Cult of Doyle’ shirts…)
Your opinion certainly lacks any semblence of something, although I’m not sure it’s tangibility.
#16: my God man….why would you bring that up?
At least the Mariners are not contemplating resigning Gil Meche, who is asking for 4 years/$40 million dollars.
One question, one comment:
Question: wouldn’t Manny demand some sort of contract extension in exchange for giving up his no-trade? His deal starts to seem a lot less palatable spread out over more than 2 years.
Comment: Putz was a stud last year, but Closers rarely maintain such studliness. Now might be too early to trade him, but it’s better to trade too early than too late. If he is the centerpiece of a trade that lands us Manny, I think that would be acceptable. A deal that looks about like this:
+ Manny
+ Lowry
- Putz
- Sexson
- Jones
Is completely fine except for that bottom line – Jones. If Jones is going to be Mike Cameron in 2008, then I don’t think it’s worth it. If he turns into a mediocre CF that hits .250/.325/.450 then GET MANNY NOW.
#20: I completely agree. As much as I love JJ, if Soriano remains on the squad I think he could slide into Putz’s spot rather nicely. Adam Jones is a rather hefty price to pay, no question about it.
Agreed. Let’s hope that if this whole deal comes to fruition that Seattle itself is not a career killer. I wasn’t intentionally bashing Bavasi but rather just happy that we weren’t sitting on our hands this winter.
Like a typical fan however I’ll get excited about just about any signing, WFB excepted, and hope for the best.
I’ve heard rumors from Dodger-land that Manny wanted his option(s) guaranteed in exchange for waiving his no trade clause. Paying him $18M per in 2009 and 2010 is crazy.
I agree with CCW, I’m OK with trading Putz — we have to give up something for Manny — but the upside (even the average expectation) on Jones is too great to give him up for a player whose salary exceeds his ability.
#18 – just because this topic is about rumors and that was one of them mentioned in Hickey’s column but not mentioned in the topic intro.
The TNT column this morning said flatly that the Ms aren’t shopping Sexson. And the Times column said Boston was asking for Putz, Jones AND somebody like Clement in a trade for Manny – which if true is flat out ‘they’re not really looking to trade him’.
They’re all rumors; I just wondered if Dave had heard anything specific regarding Doyle (though he did say anybody not named Ichiro, Felix or Betancourt could be in the mix…)
As complicated of a deal this is, I would love to see the Mariners make a play for Manny. If he requires 2 more years at 19 mil per to bring him here, fine. If he requires Adam Jones and JJ Putz + to keep the Dodgers from offering Broxton, Loney and Billingsley, fine. Let Manny be Manny for the hometown 9.
The nice thing about superstar sluggers, is there always seems to be a trade market for them. (See Sheffield, Gary) If he starts to decline in 2 years, trade him. This move would make the club SIGNIFICANTLY better for the next couple years. Adam Jones, as a raw CF prospect, still has a wide range of projections. He could be the next Mike Cameron, or he could be the next Joe Borchard, who was extremely highly rated as a prospect. We know what we’re getting with Manny.
#24: my God man…..why would you bring that up?
Prediction: M’s Trade Doyle = USSM Shuts Down. It can’t go on without him.
Let me just say thanks to Dave for debunking the Hickey article, or at least explaining it. I loathe the fact that one writer merely brings up a name in this context: “The Cougars could contact the Eagles about Joe Blow”, and everyone else jumps on it as a rumor. It’s irresponsible on both ends.
When Hickey mentioned Sexson could be traded, it was obvious he didn’t have any sources in the M’s organization leaking the fact that Bavasi is looking to deal Sexson, but rather that Hickey was merely theorizing.
Sounds like the M’s are looking at Thomson as a back-up plan to their main targets? It’s a shame, because he’d fill a hole fairly inexpensively. I am guessing main targets are Schmidt and Jennings?
Actually, Hickey’s information shows that he is talking to highly involved baseball people. That three way rumor was being spread around under penalty of death, so the fact that he got someone to let him publish it shows his credibility.
first comment on the PI blog…
AS much as I would like to see him in Seattle, whats the point, compare Sexson and Manny’s stats are not that much different.
sigh.
Dave,
I’ve wondered about that because sometimes details are leaked in order to drive up the payout from another party (for instance, Boston would leak the story to pressure LA). But there is isn’t anything to be gained by an Ms source leaking it… Could this be a sign of a lack of consensus internally (i.e. leak it to try to kill it)?
I’d disagree, after reading that Sexson article yet again. (I’ll withhold comment on the three-way rumor). Especially in light of the M’s declaration today that they are NOT looking to deal Sexson (smokescreen? perhaps, but odd timing). It seems to be more of an editorial than an actual news story.
Trading Sexson, Jones, and Putz for Lowry and Ramirez sounds too good to be true to me.
Odd that the Giants are still interested in a 1B with all their recent moves. I thought Aurilia was pegged for 1B, Durham for 2B, and Feliz for 3B. I suppose its not much trouble to move Durham or Feliz to LF.
I also wonder what Sexson to SF would mean for Barry Bonds. Does SF have the money for both? Would adding both make Aurilia a super-sub again? Or would Bonds move to an AL West team and wreak havoc against us all year?
I love the winter meetings.
So…I was reading this article on Baseba Musings re: Planet Manny, and they suggest that the Sox should possibly think about dealing with the D-Backs due to their “stockpile” of shortstops.
I’m wondering, if the Mariners get serious about this, would they think about moving one of the young short stops that they have?
Discuss, agree, or shoot down at will.
#33– I dunno– this is sort of a non-denial denial:
“We’re trying to get better, not worse,” general manager Bill Bavasi said. “As the offseason has gone on, more teams are inquiring about Richie and Adrian (Beltre), because their contracts look good to them now. We haven’t seriously entertained one offer for either of them. Teams always ask about good players, but if you don’t better your team in the deal, what’s the point?”
There is a diference between “looking to trade” a player and being willing to trade a player. Just because the M’s aren’t “looking” to trade Seson does not mean they would not accept a great offer involving him.
Bavasi loves Snelling. I don’t see any reason to worry about him being traded.
as someone else pointed out, Bill might trade a player he loved, if said player would actually get a chance to play on the new team.
I will feel better about Snelling’s status in the org when we start hearing Broussard rumors (and when the Gonzo rumors stop). Baltimore would be a good destination (for Rodrigo Lopez?) or maybe Pittsburgh for Ryan Doumit (probably have to mix and match some other pieces in that deal).
#35 – It’s my thought that Boston may be looking at Jones as a SS since that’s his natural position. They’d be killing two birds with one stone nabbing one of last season’s better closers and a highly touted prospect whom they could plus in @ SS.
If the Mariners agree to a deal with the Red Sox, but Manny insists on playing the outfield, do you still make the move if your the Mariners? It’s been argued previously on the site that you almost need a CFer to play LF in Safeco. The defense would take an enormous hit.
#40 – Rosenthal is reporting that Baltimore has made the best offer to Luis Gonzalez thus far, which is good news. I can’t for the life of me figure why he was ever even a discussion for the M’s after Guillen came to terms.
#42 – I wouldn’t say going from Ibanez to Manny would be an “enormous” hit to the defense, but it’s definitely a downgrade (which is pretty sad if you think about it). If Manny playing in the field is a condition of him wearing a Seattle uni, I still do it!
the thought seemed to be he’d go to left & Raul to 1st if Sexson was dealt.
I might commit Gm-icide if Sabean trades Lowry for Sexson
Dave,
Pettite is looking to return to New York. As much as Bavasi loves Pavano is there a chance he could be headed west?
And at what cost would (for Pavano)
If Manny insists on playing the outfield, I put him in Right. RF in Safeco isn’t especially difficult (not like Left), and Manny does have a strong arm.
Manny has many of the tools to be a good defensive outfielder – he just isn’t.
As much as Bavasi loves Pavano is there a chance he could be headed west?
Gods, I hope not.
While I like Manny, I can’t get the image of Kevin Mitchell’s ill-fated trade to Seattle out of my mind. OK, I know that Mitchell was never the hitter that Manny is (and was), but the excitement of a famous masher coming to Seattle in a trade brings back bad thoughts of a bloated Mitchell flaming out in the ‘Dome.
I don’t think I would do a Jones/Putz deal for Manny unless it also included Lowry for Sexson (with the M’s not on the hook for any of Big Sexy’s salary).
Why would Manny want to play in the outfield? He seems completely disinterested in it.
I’m not sure why everyone is on board with Lowry. Putting aside the discussion of his value vs. Sexson’s, Lowry doesn’t seem to be a very good option.
Looking at his GB rates over his career leaves much to be desired. His LOB% in 04 and 05 (his best years) were almost 2005-Washburnesque. In 2006, when his LOB rate came back down, his FIP came way up. In 05, 20 percent of his flies were of the infield variety – something terribly out of the norm, and drawing into question his real performance. His K rate is also way down, from about 7.5/G in 04-05 to less than 5 in 06. Perhaps this has to do with his injury at the beginning of 06, but he did pitch without incident from June on to the end of the year, implying general health.
Was 06 a fluky fall from grace? Who knows? We do know he is a flyball pitcher coming off a season where he had trouble throwing the ball past hitters.
I’d rather have another young lefty – Paul Maholm. Maybe we can get in on those Cubs/Pirates/Rockies talks…
re 52, I thought I remember reading that Manny preferred to play in the field rather than DH, but I cannot seem to find it anywhere credible, only on different blogs.
The nice thing about superstar sluggers, is there always seems to be a trade market for them. (See Sheffield, Gary) If he starts to decline in 2 years, trade him.
If that was so easy with Manny, Boston would’ve done it last year, or the year before, or the year before that. Manny presumably hangs onto his no-trade clause, even (or especially) if he signs an extension. I think the euphoria around the idea is clouding judgement just a little. The M’s could easily end up paying all the salary for the husk of a former slugger in 2010, even if they manage to get another team to take him. I like the idea of picking up Manny in theory, but when you start talking about 4 years and giving up a lot of young talent, it gets a whole lot less attractive.
It’s my thought that Boston may be looking at Jones as a SS since that’s his natural position.
Hey, there’s always Nomah’s little bro. That would have to play well in the Boston papers, even if he never amounted to anything.
Putz and Jones for Manny. Sexson for Lowry. Broussard for Rodrigo Lopez. Make it so, number one.
Really guys, read the actual entry. Dave explicitly says that this Putz/Jones/Sexson for Manny/Lowry would never actually happen, because if Boston was willing to sell that low, then they’d deal Manny to the Dodgers. I mean, I guess we don’t know if he’s right, but there’s a lot of people imaginarily communicating their support for the deal to Bavasi, considering it was explicitly debunked as a possibility from the beginning.
If this deal takes a throw-in to make it work, throw someone in. If the deal fails for the want of Wladimir Balentien, I’ll be rather annoyed.
Until we have something real, all we can do is evaluate rumors.
#57 – I guess it all depends on if a deal can be struck with a third team and what that third team would have to send to Boston to sweeten the deal.
Anytime the M’s can add 30+ HR and 120+ RBI’s I am a fan. now why is there not more talk of bringing part of the Oakland 3 (Zito, Hudson, Mulder) home to Safeco. I think Hudson is a real possibility in a Big Sexy trade, and Mulder seems to be drawing little interest from anyone other than Arizona. Why not bring them back to the American League West where they will do wonderfully and killing everyone but the M’s.
I see the Death To Manny columns have begun in Boston….
In his chat today, Rob Neyer said:
“..it seems to me that Guillen’s the new Carl Everett. And not in a good way.”
Wow. What happened to the days when Neyer would have joined USSM in giving this deal a thumbs-up?
#62 – That’s the stupidest column I’ve ever read. This city DESERVED not to have a championship for 86 years. Here’s to hoping they don’t have get another for 186 years
If this deal takes a throw-in to make it work, throw someone in. If the deal fails for the want of Wladimir Balentien, I’ll be rather annoyed.
According to Geoff Baker at the times, the “throw in” would be Jeff Clement.
Hmm, two of the M’s best prospects (one very close to MLB, one a year or two off) and a closer for a 34 year old DH making just south of 20 million- and probably insisting that we invoke options keeping him under contract through age 38. All so we can get rid of an overpaid 1B who’s under contract for 2 years, and turn that player into an expensive and considerably better DH.
I love Manny’s bat as much as the next guy, but this is July 1997 all over again- stripping the minor league system and pennants tomorrow for a pennant today, except the M’s are not only not in a pennant race yet, they’ve barely smelled one for 3 years.
The way I see it, Theo’s trying to see if Bavasi will fall for the stupid if the Dodgers won’t. No sale.
The Washington Post is saying the Nats may be involved in a three-way Manny deal with Seattle or SF to get Boston the pieces they want. Makes sense, since we KNOW Bowden loves Jones and Boston might like to get their hands on Felipe Lopez. Ryan Church is also on the block and he seems like a guy the Red Sox might be interested in.
Seattle should be exploring how to get Nick Johnson out of Washington too, since the phone lines are open.
and Tracy Ringolsby chimes in with the rumor that “Seattle is hoping the skyrocketing free-agent market will allow it to unload the contracts of first baseman Richie Sexson and third baseman Adrian Beltre, neither of whom has met the expectations that came with their free-agent signings two years ago”
Both of them, huh?
64 – Totally agree. That article is inane. If that’s the way you have to think in Red Sox Nation, even Theo can’t help.
67 – As long of a shot as it is that Sexson is dealt, it’s even longer than Beltre goes. If they traded those two, why not just deal Ichiro and rebuild?
Any talk about Beltre is pure speculation, it’s a near guarantee that any conversations concerning him have come to a quick halt. Unlike Richie Sexson, Beltre has no replacement in sight. Richie has more value and is more expendable (to a degree).
[namecalling]
yes yes i know, but Richie has all that power!!
pbbbttthhhh
One bad thing that could happen if they traded Richie would be the number of errors made by the infield if Ibanez is the 1B. Mainly the only good thing about Richie at first is that at 6’8″ he makes a great target for the infielders. The risk goes far up of more overthrows next year with 6’2″ Ibanez at first. It’ll be difficult to get used to having to throw at least 6 inches lower every time. At least in my opinion.
Oh get over the 6’8″ thing. These are professional infielders. Sure he saves a couple of errors being tall, but he doesn’t have great hands so I bet he gives them right back. Watching Sexson at first, you don’t see a slick glove like Olerud, you see a tall guy who stabs at the ball.
I’m not sure replacing him with a shorter guy costs us any errors, provided the shorter guy has good hands.
#73: ya, all things considered, thats the deal breaker…..
#74 – Agreed, not to mention the three other guys in the IF are known for their great, accurate throws. Richie’s height would have minimal impact on the other IFers.
74. Hey according to the Baseball Reference page for Ibanez amd the BR page for Sexson Sexson has far better range than Ibanez. So it does make a difference,
That’s Ibanez in left vs Sexson at first.
The measurements are not equal.
Also, learn about range factor and how to evaluate defense. Didn’t Dave write some great post about that not too long ago?
As long as we’re merely “evaluating rumors” to quote MarinerDan, I’m wondering if we’d really want Tim Hudson. I guess it depends a lot on what we’d have to give up.
A look at his stats from 2004-2006 suggests a pitcher in decline, at least to this amateur observer. His FIP went from 3.45 to 4.22 to 4.49. His K/G climbed from 5.1 to 5.4 to 5.7 but his BB/G also climbed, from 2.2 to 3.1 to 3.2. His HR/F rate really went up, from 6.5 to 17.1 to 16.3 – I don’t suppose that is ballpark adjusted, though.
Also, just one last stat that may or may not have any utility, Hudson’s Win Shares Above Bench went from 11 to 8 to 2. He’ll be 32 next year and was never terribly durable.
So, in the spirit of Dave’s college classroom model of USSM, this is an honest question: how much do we really want Tim Hudson?
#80 – You forgot to evaluate Tim Hudson’s soul patch factor. That’s at least worth half a dozen more women in the stands each season. Could be valuable.
81 – You’re right, I don’t know how I could have forgotten that.
and the cool tats.
The problem with Tim Hudson is that he’s falling apart and in full decline now. Even in this out-of-control market, he’s overpriced for his ability.
Seems really quiet out there right now……a little too quiet…
64 & 68: Not all Red Sox fans think that way. >_
It really makes me sad that there are GM’s out there seriously pondering Barry Zito for 6-7 years for ~$100 million.
So long as it isn’t our GM, it makes me very happy.
64 & 68: Not all Red Sox fans think that way. >_
In fact, that was the point of the column.
Amen, brother.
87. As a left-hander, it makes me sad that I never learned how to pitch.
Re #88 & #90: if someone gives Zito a 6- or 7-year deal for $100 mil, even though it’s someone else, that shouldn’t make any of us happy, because it drives up the price for other players, which hurts us.
Eventually it will make people realize that those kinds of contracts are idiotic, and that will help us.
80. The reason I won’t want him is he’s a musician. Haven’t we’ve learned from Sandfrog and Broussard that any player who’s a musician is not worth it?
Eventually it will make people realize that those kinds of contracts are idiotic, and that will help us.
Not really. We gain an advantage if Bavasi recognizes that the contracts are idiotic while a good number of other gm’s keep handing them out. Once everyone realizes the idiocy, the advantage is gone, and more money just goes to the owners (though small budget teams will benefit if/when the overal prices drop). This assumes Bavasi has learned his lesson.
#64 referring to #62, link to the Boston Herald article: 88fingerslukee, let me clue you in on the guy who wrote that “stupidest column”.
He ain’t a Red Sox fan. He’s a Boston sportswriter, which group seems to have something in their guild charter that requires them to spit venom about every talented baseball player who wears a Red Sox uniform. Like the article says, Manny doesn’t read that filth, but I’m sure he knows about it, and THAT’S what he wants to get away from.
It makes my head spin to think that Manny Ramirez might be wearing an M’s uniform. If it comes to pass, I’ll be wondering if the M’s finally move the LF fences in….they should, if only for Manny’s defensive sake.
#94: I dunno, Arroyo strummed his guitar to a decent season last year… Bernie Williams did alright over his career….
#89
But far too many of them DO think that way. Which just makes me pissed off.
Ehhhh….Bernie’s a rather mediocre guitarist. Nice session man, but that’s about it. Now, Wayman Tisdale is substantially better (tho bland for my taste….)
Aren’t these guys getting enough action as professional athletes? Do they have to be musicians too? Damn, man, be happy with what you have.
Also, if you’ve got time to learn the guitar, that’s time you should be spending in the batting cages.
99: Because every human being should spend every waking moment becoming better at his or her job.
Looks like a Manny deal is looking pretty slim for the M’s according to this at MLB.com…. Bummer!
Eventually it will make people realize that those kinds of contracts are idiotic, and that will help us.
Mike Hampton didn’t do it. Why would Zito/Soriano/Lee?
Boston probably asked the M’s to “toss in” Felix and Clement in addition to Jones and Putz. I suppose if LAA is willing to part with 3 or 4 A/A+ prospects, that’s something we’ll just have to deal with.
When you’re getting paid 10 million dollars a year to do it? Yes.
Truthfully, Boston has some nerve….I hope they get stuck with Manny…
#104– tell that to America’s CEOs
#101 Looks like a Manny deal is looking pretty slim for the M’s according to this at MLB.com…. Bummer!
it looked pretty slim according to Dave’s original post …
By Jon Heyman, SI.com
LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. — The Red Sox are about to call a halt to the Manny Ramirez trade-a-thon, leaving five teams disappointed to varying degrees (six if you count the Yankees).
Red Sox people on Tuesday were saying they had virtually lost hope of anyone matching their requests, leaving the state of Manny talks as something along the lines of “all but dead.”
When you’re getting paid 10 million dollars a year to do it? Yes.
If the way one does what one does to be paid 10 million dollars a year doesn’t require one to spend every waking moment to accomplish, the rest of one’s time is free to spend as one pleases. *shrug* I’m usually very hesitant to ‘should’ people, which perspective I recommend to you.
#108: Pure brinksmanship.
I can’t remember what was going on when Manny was offered on waivers two yeras ago. Did the M’s seriously consider it? Did the blogosphere think it was a good idea? As I remember no one took it that seriously as a good possibility, but my memory may be wrong
FWIW, ESPN News is reportiong the Red Sox signed JD Drew to a 5-year / $70 million deal.
111. No one even put in a waver claim at that time because his contract was so out of line with the going rates at the time. Now of course its considered a good deal.
My question about Manny’s contract is concerning the no-trade clause. Is it an actual clause in the contract or is it due to his 10-5 rights? Meaning would it be possible to flip him in a year or two without having to generate a list of teams he’d find acceptable?
Manny’s no-trade is written into his contract I believe. I don’t think it has anything to do with 10-5 rights.
I doubt very much that if you deprive players of any leisure time and any hobbies and make them spend that time working and practicing instead that you end up with more productive ballplayers.
I would like to see son go to the redsox.
He would get 55 saves.
Putz is soooooooo te
truthfully…screw the BoSox…. they liked the deal when they took it on……now enjoy the final few years….
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2687700
Maddux agrees with Pads…. 1YR/ $10m
The Red Sox are smart, they don’t HAVE to move Manny. So they ask for the moon, and if someone bites, great! If not, they still have Manny and his Hall of Fame bat next season.
It seems like a win-win situation to me.
Maddux at $10M for one year? Hmmm. I guess that is an OK deal, given the going rate. He is obviously in decline, but he also brings the added revenue of being a sure-fire hall-of-famer who will sell some tickets. Plus, maybe he can work his grandfatherly magic on young Mr. Peavy?
Aside from the fact that Manny wants to leave Boston, yeah – the Sawks are in a great spot…
Manny’s wanted to leave Boston lots of times before. It doesn’t seem to hurt his hitting.
Maybe it is hurting his hitting. Think about THAT!
Yahoo says Seattle is one of the teams interested in Gil Meche for 4 years. I hope that is just them bidding out of respect. But if they really can’t sign anyone else…
The Red Sox are smart, they don’t HAVE to move Manny. So they ask for the moon, and if someone bites, great! If not, they still have Manny and his Hall of Fame bat next season.
Exactly. In the worst case scenario, they have a great hitter who hurts them defensively. Sure he’s kind of a headcase, but he’s still a very valuable hitter. The fact that there are multiple teams that are apparently not only willing to pay his salary but also give up talent to acquire him speaks to his value.
The idea that Michael Garciaparra’s resurgence this winter would be enough for him to be more than a throw in in a trade at present seems like a stretch to me. He has value, but nowhere near Jones or Clement, even to Boston.
I’m sad to hear that Boston isn’t stupid enough and the M’s aren’t lucky enough for that trade rumor to be true. I didn’t think it could be that easy in the first place.
I posted this in the previous link, and the only answer I’ve heard is the thought of Ibanez playing first, which I’ve seen firsthand and would like to avoid seeing again in an M’s uniform.
“Right now between 4OF/DH/1B (6 spots) we’ve got Ichiro, Chris, Jose, Raul, Richie, Ben, Jeremy, Adam and Mike Morse as possible players on the roster. After signing Guillen the talk was that this enabled the M’s to trade Sexson and/or Broussard. If you trade Sexson to lighten up the log-jam and get back an OF/DH type you aren’t removing anything (except a 1Bman). If you trade Sexson and Broussard you have to add a 1Bman unless you want to see Ibanez look bad enough that you have to acquire a 1Bman a month into the season, try Morse there which might end up as bad and gives him ABs you’d rather see others on the roster get or watch Bloomquist get 500 AB and really all the other problems apply with him starting even more so (except, possibly, defense). I don’t mind the idea of adding Ramirez, but fitting him into the lineup
C Johjima
1B?
2B Lopez
3B Beltre
SS Betancourt
LF Doyle
CF Ichiro
RF Guillen
DH Manny
It looks like Ibanez is playing first base (bad idea) or the FO plans on trading him or another OF/DH type and picking up a 1Bman. I don’t mind the idea of trading Ibanez, but who here thinks the M’s are looking at that route? Ichiro? They just signed Guillen and (if trade goes through) just got Manny, so it looks like they’ll play Ibanez at first or trade Snelling. Which would you prefer? I like neither, but I have to say in this scenario I’d rather see them get some pitching help back for Snelling than watch Ibanez at first again. Another problem with this is it leaves the team with two players who you’d rather see DH, (Ibanez and Manny)so you have to bench one or play one in the field. It’s possible Manny could be adequate at 1B, but he’s never done it in MLB. I don’t see how Manny makes sense unless they’re willing to trade Ibanez, and then you’re replacing Ibanez and Sexson with Guillen and Manny. You get talent back too, but I’m talking about Offensive production. It doesn’t look like as much of an improvement as it looks before thinking about how everyone’s getting playing time. Maybe there’s some other way to work that out, but I don’t see it.
I’d rather see the team get pitching and MiLers back for the pieces they’re trading and Willis and Lowry aren’t the only options. As long as you’d only be expecting a #2-3 type starter out of Willis and the pieces being traded aren’t too out of line with that I like the idea of trading for him.”
It’s been discussed that Willis could be out of baseball within a few years because of his odd mechanics and overuse at a young age. He did have a down year last year and it seems he may already be in decline. His control was bad (almost horrible) in 06 and oddly his GO/AO went up significantly. I’m not sure much can be expected out of Willis’ career at this point, but he might be a chance worth taking.
FWIW, Hickey & Bavasi are both to be on KOMO at 7. I’m guessing that Hickey has a few things to say about the meetings, and that Bill carefully avoids saying much of anything.
Heyman:
It’s interesting that Manny apparently supplied a list of 13 teams he’d be willing to be traded to, and Seattle was among them. Now, that’s not a huge endorsement — 13 is just shy of half the teams in the league, more than half if he’s tilted towards the AL, and there are a bunch of bottom feeders he’s not going to list (and have no chance of trading for him or paying him anyway) — but it’s kind of amazing a last-place team in a cold, dark corner of the country didn’t land on his “no” list.
I’m guessing that Hickey has a few things to say about the meetings, and that Bill carefully avoids saying much of anything.
There you go again, msb, with the wild-eyed predictions. You’re like some kind of northwest Nostradamus…
apparently he had the entire west coast on the list.
Manny’s no-trade is written into his contract I believe.
Exactly wrong. As a matter of policy, the Red Sox do not give out no-trade clauses in their contracts.
Manny’s contract stated that if any other Red Sox player got a no-trade, he would too. So the Red Sox jumped through hoops to conjur up language that would give Varitek the no-trade protection he insisted on in his current deal without giving it to Manny.
Since he signed with the Red Sox in 2001 after six years in Cleveland, Manny now has 10/5 rights.
#121: Manny wants to be inducted into the Hall of Fame more than he wants to leave Boston. By many account, it is Mrs. Ramirez who wants Manny out of Boston.
#111: I can’t remember what was going on when Manny was offered on waivers two yeras ago.
The team’s putting Manny on waivers made it clear to him that, despite what he thought, the Yankees would not make a trade to pick him up and fulfill his childhood dream of playing his home games in New York. (A dream he shared with Joe Morgan on national TV, no less!) If NY wouldn’t pick him up “for free,” that told him all he needed to know about NY’s interest.
That was the offseason when Vladimir Guerrero was a free agent. Clearing that salary would have opened up payroll room to either throw money at Vlad or take A-Rod in a salary dump trade from Texas. No hitter on the market today (at any price, whether by trade or free agency) can fill Manny’s spot in the Red Sox lineup.
Manny’s not going anywhere. Bold prediction: This same saga will play itself out next year, with only the names of the teams changing.
There you go again, msb, with the wild-eyed predictions. You’re like some kind of northwest Nostradamus…
hmm, wonder if I still have the tape with Dave Thomas starring in the fine SCTV movie, Mr. Know-It-All: The Life of Nostradamus (“I knew you were going to say that”)
Bill says that they are laying the groundwork, talking to lots of clubs, and that it would be nice if they left with something done.
Blow is stunned by the length of contracts being offered pitchers.
There wouldn’t be any luck involved if the Ms were the recipient of Manny. It mostly starts with a willingness to take on payroll so that the Ms could take advantage of Boston’s desire to shed payroll. Getting rid of $38M AND getting a guy like Putz….well that would be more like winning the lottery wouldn’t it?
Bill on pitching: “we would look at anyone”
some nuggets:
earlier this winter, Kenny Williams was willing to trade the M’s Freddy if they threw in Felix.
speaking of Felix, Bill says that in fact Felix has been doing more than watching tv and sleeping — the word from the Dominican Academy is that he is doing his work and looks good.
Raffy has pitched in the DR, had some balls come back at him through the box, and he has been fine with it.
per Hickey, the Cards are going after Schmidt and he thinks the lure of the WS Champs might be greater than home & a 3-year losing streak in which case they may have to go for Zito & 5 years because ‘they have to get one of those two guys’
a solo Manny deal would prob. have to be Richie, Reed, Putz … by the afternoon, the lobby buzz had built the earlier trade scenarios into a 4-team trade…
You know, speculating about 3-way deals: Boston clearly is looking for a closer (with Papelbon moving to the rotation). I wonder if Bavasi could rig something where Soriano or Putz goes to Boston, Boston sends somebody(s) to Colorado, and the Rockies send Jennings to Seattle (with whatever throw-ins are necessary along the way to even up all the sides). Just a thought.
Eventually, Boston will end up including 15 teams with the BoSox getting several prospects, shedding Manny’s salarly completely and still keeping him for the remainiing four years….
Meanwhile Theo will shoot lightning from his arse in the hotel lobby to the chorus of ***FRRRRRREEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM****
Yes, I’m tired of hearing about Manny….
Dan Wilson will be back at the U Village center court this sat from 12-2 for his annual drive (this year for the Guatemalan orphanage his youngest came from) He’ll trade autographs for new toys, diapers, medicines, money… btw, Dan has been coaching the kids and getting a start on finishing his degree, and could see getting back into baseball a-ways down the road.
and Dave Valle would be expecially happy if you wanted to donate to esperanza.org for Christmas.
How about this nugget from the teams site
A source indicated late Tuesday that Seattle might have interest in sending slugger Richie Sexson to the Giants and reliever Rafael Soriano to the Braves. In return, the Mariners would receive a starting pitcher (Tim Hudson) and a first baseman (Adam LaRoche).
Thats a deal I could live with!
might?
It sounds like a good idea. But in the last 28 years, only three teams have repeated as champions (the Yankees twice and the Blue Jays once), and only one other team (Minnesota) won a second championsip within five years. Signing with the defending champion is not a great way to pursue a chamionship in baseball.