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Don’t let the door hit ya’
Joel Pineiro is officially a free agent.
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Twittah
Just so I can get this cleared up, were there any legs to the Joel Pineiro for Scott Rolen deal back in the 2001-2002 offseason?
So long JoEL.
Can I just ask, if I may, what the hell happened to the guy? One day, he’s 24, winning 16 games, and drawing comparisons to Pedro Martinez (albeit only from Rick Rizzs). The next, he can’t get through 5 innings.
Did he just never recover, or was he genuinely bad all along and simply had it catch up to him?
He went from an OK prospect to throwing harder almost overnight. He was good for a few years, then lost his stuff. You do the math.
Well, here’s the basic story. Joel’s a guy, he makes his way up the minor league system, gets to Tacoma, and bam! He’s throwing faster, his stuff looks great — he makes that “if only he threw 2-3mph faster and had 10% better control” adjustment people tag every promising pitching prospect with. This new Joel makes the majors, he’s throwing a bunch of different pitches for strikes, he looks like he’s made a leap… and then nothing. He doesn’t progress at all, and then suddenly he’s fighting an arm injury, the velocity’s gone – he looks like the guy nobody cared about in AA, and that guy isn’t a major league-quality pitcher. It takes a while for that to be apparent to everyone, but eventually, it is.
You may draw what conclusions you will from that. He’s done.
Heh. What Jason said, only longer and enhanced by the Allagash 11th Anniversary Ale (which, as a beer hound, I’d like to say is not worth the money).
Hmmm… so DMZ, are you saying Joel wouldn’t get your HOF vote? /sarcasm
Al Martin…best Mariner or best ever Mariner?
Let’s just say that some day in the not-too-distant future, he’ll be seen playing long-toss with Ryan Franklin at a rest stop just outside Ellensburg. That’s all I’m saying.
Was today/tonight the deadline for tenders? ?Any word on Broussard?
I can’t believe what I’m reading. I always figured it was the hair.
I can’t wait for the Royals to sign him.
They won’t. His contract wouldn’t be ridiculously large enough for them to make a splash by signing him.
Next year 1-2 finishers in the AL Cy Young Award: 1. Joel Pineiro 2. Gil Meche, both Royals.
3,4,5-
Ah, so. Thanks for getting that in the clear for me. There I thought he was the cream of the crop, but I see I was wrong. By the way, Derek, no beer is worth the monty. You should be saving that for the Missus.
Cough. Lemme just go fix that comment.
Yeah, what was THAT about?
Oh I see, don’t delete YOUR ot comments.
Poor Joel. It only took his article 7 or 8 replys to get off-topic.
Despite some of the bad moves we have made, getting rid of Gil and Joel feels like a huge weight lifted off my shoulders.
Well this winter hasn’t been a total loss. Gil and Joel are both gone.
So, is Joel done-done? Surely the Pirates or Royals or Nationals will give him an NRI.
I do find it remarkable that he just went into this dead-arm period and basically did nothing to dig himself out of it. He never learned how to pitch.
Oh, and I’m drinking a Shiner Bock. Because I can.
Woo hoo! Here’s hoping the Devil Rays decide to make a big splast (and keep up with the Royals) and sign him for 4/40.
But…but…what about that $6.5 million we no longer will be paying Joel? At least when we were wasting it on him we KNEW where it was going and what was happening to it. God alone knows what management will do with it now. Sign Julio Franco to a three-year deal or something. Maybe bring back Gaylord Perry. Hey! Naw.
#1– it was reported the M’s talked with the Phillies at the winter meetings that year, and also again in July. At the winter meetings the Times had this:
In the Mariners’ efforts to fill third base, Jeff Cirillo of the
Rockies has not lost his edge over Scott Rolen of the Phillies. In
fact, according to word from Colorado, the deal could be expanded to
include former Newport High School standout Todd Hollandsworth, who
has often interested Seattle officials.
The difference in dealings with the Rockies and Phillies is Joel
Pineiro. According to one report, the last thing Philadelphia GM Ed
Wade said to Gillick in one recent call was, “Don’t call back unless
you’ll talk about Pineiro.” For now, at last until they find out about the health of Gil Meche and Ryan Anderson in spring training, the Mariners remain committed to holding Pineiro, their most developed pitching prospect.
While the Mariners and Phillies went back and forth on names
yesterday, there was little advancement of the trade possibility.
While Rolen is a noted two-way player, one baseball man said, “He’s
already turned down more ($140 million over 10 years) than the
Mariners offered Alex Rodriguez last year.”
This is not strictly true. According to a Philadelphia source, Rolen
never formally got an offer, but backed up his previous declaration he would not re-sign with that club by stopping Wade in mid-discussion about such an offer.
—————-
At the time Rolen said all he wanted was a competitive team, but apparently it was known that if it was a competive team in the NL central, all the better; some say that if you throw enough money at someone you can change their mind, but he took less in his extension with St Louis (after the trade there) to stay put– granted, $90 million/8 years isn’t chump change, but the Phillies said they would offer him $140 million/10 years– he refused to talk extension with them, and didn’t try to go to free agency after the trade. In fact, there were stories at the time that the trade was predicated on his willingness to sign an extension with the Cardinals ….
Pineiro was completely abused by Melvin in 2003 and was never the same since.
But they had the same five starters the whole year!
Biggest mistake ever. IMHO.
[too far]
Biggest curveball you ever seen since Jason Hanson. A good YOUNG pitcher with good record having a down year. Competetive, bold, determined…hates losing. Unlike Meche and his antics…where the manager and pitching coach had no idea if he wanted to stay on the mound or not.
I’m not even going to quote 27 because it’s going to be deleted in a second.
But Jeff at Lookout Landing posted an article where his feelings on Joel were about as obvious as Shaq in Tokyo.
So will you still delete all the Pinieros?
Seriously, why didn’t Gilick pull the trigger on this one? The M’s still had Freddy Garcia, Jamie Moyer, Paul Abbott and John Halama, and Pineiro didn’t start making waves in 2001 until mid-season.
Rolen was money with 31 HR and 110 RBI in 2002 and 28 HR and 104 RBI in 2003. He could have been that missing link, ensuring there would be no Sukrillo in Seattle. And in 2004, when the Mariners fell flat on their face in April and never recovered, Rolen had 34 HR and 128 RBI.
Sure, Pineiro went 14-7 in 2002 and 16-3 in 2003, but how could you pass up on a proven guy in Rolen? Instead, the Mariners settled on the cheaper alternative (Cirillo) and paid for it:
Pinella left the team in frustration and the front “Office Space” guys replaced him with boneheads (BumMel and Mumbler Hargrove)
Pineiro and Meche wore out their welcome in Seattle, and the team gave up on Ryan Anderson after Felix became the next big overated pitcher on the Mariners
This one move could have changed all that. It should have been made!
I’m not even going to quote 27 because it’s going to be deleted in a second.
Apparently not, because while it’s not okay to talk about Mark McGwire and ‘roids on this blog, it is okay to talk about other players and their unproven ‘roid habits. The hypocrisy is palpable.
Best news of the offseason.
Inability to evaluate talent properly. It pervades the organisation…
#27′s blatant rule breaking is still up there after nearly an hour.
Maybe Jason and Derek have lowered the bar on this one with their early nudge-nudge wink-wink routine.
#3: “He went from an OK prospect to throwing harder almost overnight”
#4: “Joel’s a guy, he makes his way up the minor league system, gets to Tacoma, and bam! He’s throwing faster, his stuff looks great — he makes that “if only he threw 2-3mph faster and had 10% better control†adjustment people tag every promising pitching prospect with. This new Joel makes the majors, he’s throwing a bunch of different pitches for strikes, he looks like he’s made a leap… and then nothing. He doesn’t progress at all, and then suddenly he’s fighting an arm injury, the velocity’s gone – he looks like the guy nobody cared about in AA, and that guy isn’t a major league-quality pitcher.
I have to admit the thought of ‘roids crossed my otherwise completely uninformed and unsubstantiated mind.
But on a more productive topic, does saying ta-ta to Joel give the Mariners room to make any additional moves this off season? Or are there moves that they would make left available?
Zambrano non-tendered. How about it?
Another long shot trade target off the list…
#37: Who’s left? Zambrano? Suppan? Zito? I know the whole Zito thing has been beaten to death.
DMZ: as a beer hound I strongly urge you to drink this:
You won’t regret it.
Some friends and I have been taking beer and baseball trips around the country for years. Would you like us to post our brew pub findings and stadium reports?
Ah Fullers. It’s always worth it.
Of course it’s better when you get it pulled by hand in Chiswick…
Zambrano will come cheap, because of his performance last year when he was hurt. He sported an ERA+ of 100 to 110 for the previous 4 years, and he’s 30. We could get him for a year for maybe 2-3M.
If he is better, he’d have a nice upside.
w/r/t
You’ll note the comment’s gone.
Folks, we’re not always here, scanning the blog constantly on the off chance Corco’s gotten into the pixie sticks, or someone’s made some roid-related comment.
That something survives for an hour, or in this case three, doesn’t mean it’ll go two (or four).
Also, I believe hypocrisy wouldn’t be the word you’d want. If we were holding the line at no steroid conversations except for some players, that’d be inconsistent among other things but not really hypocritical.
With as happy as everyone is, you all are missing the point. The team has gotten worse not better. The loss of Meche and Piñeiro and the gain of HoRAM and Batista does not improve the Mariners. Our staff got older yes, not better.
Our staff got older yes, not better.
Hmm… HoRam is a year older, and better, then Joel Pineiro. Miguel Batista and Gil Meche are a wash.
So older yes, and better. Not that I want to get into the entire Mariners rotation, mind you. It’s four #4-#5s and Felix, no matter how you slice it. But it was that way last year too. Moyer, Washburn, Pineiro, and Meche… Washburn, Batista, HoRam, and Whomever. Improved? No. Worse? No.
And while Gil Meche’s 2006 was his best, he still sucks.
The thing I wanna know, besides Felix, who the hell is our opening day starter? Is our No. 1 ace (Felix) even going to be allowed to pitch 200 innings?
And I’m sick of Ryan Franklin, can we please never mention him again?
Goodbye, Viva Pinata. We’ll miss you.
(No we won’t)
#46: Exactly. A rotation of four #4 – #5 arms and Felix (who is certainly better than the rest but never has seemed to live up to the media hype…who could?). This rotation does not inspire a lot of confidence.
So how do you improve it? A big concern is that there aren’t many pitchers still available that would be considered a #1 or #2 arm. Although at this point a #3 arm would be an improvement.
And quietly both he and evidently recently released Eduardo Perez have a BBQ. WTF? Perez is gone? Not that I harbored any hopes of him becoming our personal Frank Thomas, but we got nothing for a player we could have gotten someone for. Who in the Mariner organization is looking to the future? I guess it is the Christmas season….and once again we are taught the lesson that in the M’s mind it is better to give than receive.
What?!!? Your lives don’t revolve around us???!??!
oooooh, it’s Point/Counterpoint with Larry Stone and Steve Kelley on the HOF ballot!!!
Even a #1, strong #2, and crap would be fine. Teams have gotten to the playoffs on such a pitching staff (yes, I’m talking to you, Diamondbacks.)
Kelley has a HOF vote? I’m speechless. I think I’m going to be sick. The Kingman-McGwire comparison is downright idiotic.
Now that I’ve read it a few more times, the initial shock has worn off. I still can’t beileve that this man is allowed to vote for the Hall. Speechless. My favorite part has to be where Kelley suggests that Kingman, a man who hit 40 HRs exactly once, could have hit 80 during his age 38-39 seasons– if he only wanted to.
Speaking of Felix, is Bartolo Colon still his nutritionist?
The M’s exercised their buyout option for 2007, but they said they have some interest in resigning him for less money.
He was on a $1.7 million contract with a club option for 2007 that included a $125,000 buyout. It’s not clear to me what his 2007 salary would have been if they exercised the option, but I’d assume it would be no less than the $1.7 million. Do you really think they could have traded that option to anybody for anything at all? I can’t believe anyone would trade a prospect for the opportunity to pay Perez $1.7 million.
My favorite part has to be where Kelley suggests that Kingman, a man who hit 40 HRs exactly once, could have hit 80 during his age 38-39 seasons– if he only wanted to.
’cause Dave was known for his pitch selection.
And his graceful day-to-day demeanor.
44: Hey. HEY. Calling me a Cocaine user is unacceptable. You don’t have any proof.
fizzies over pixie stix any day.
59: Well, you were just another poster and then your posting velocity went up by 5-10 pph (posts per hour) almost overnight. It looked like you’d made a leap and you were good for a while and then you just lost your stuff. You do the math.
AP sez that Matsuzaka is on John Henry’s plane headed to Boston, so I guess we can assume a preliminary deal has been made…. now, Boras just has to figure out how much more Zito is worth than what the Sox are paying an ‘unproven’ pitcher.
Re 54 & 55
To vote for the Hall of Fame you must only be a Print journalist who has been a member of the BBWAA (think that’s the correct abbreviation) for 10 years. Baseball-related intelligence and actual writing skill have nothing to do with it.
Bill James’s kid told me yesterday that the deal was all but done, and that he WILL be a Red Sock no matter what. I don’t know how reliable he is, but he is Bill James’s son, so take that as you will.
Um, the Mariners did.
Geoff Baker on Pineiro’s release
So if it has not been you, who has been following me?
Who originally signed Pineiro to his contract? Pat Gillick? Why would you sign that kind of pitcher to a three year $20 million dollar contract in the first place?
Pineiro went from blowing gas and having a sharp breaking ball to a below avergae pitcher whose jersey looked like it was 2 sizes too big. I believe the elephant is officially in the room, and crapping on the coffee table.
It looks to me like they signed him to a 3-year, $14.5 million deal (I don’t know about any signing bonuses — I gleaned this from Baseball-reference.com) after the 2003 season in which he went 16-11, 3.78 with 151 Ks.
At the time, it may have looked like a good deal. He then proceeded to completely fall apart.
um, I wouldn’t say Joel was ever ‘blowing gas’
Why would you sign that kind of pitcher to a three year $20 million dollar contract in the first place?
Take a look at his 2002 and 2003 seasons (averaging 15 wins and an ERA in the mid-3′s at the age of 23 and 24) and you will be able to answer that question. His #1 comparable through age 24 was Juan Marichal.
ah, Freddy
Garcia will have one familiar face around next season, as he’ll be reunited with veteran pitcher Jamie Moyer, his teammate in Seattle from 1999-2004. “I was young and didn’t concentrate that much, and [Moyer] always talked to me about concentrating more and not trying too hard,†Garcia said.
hmm.
“Mariners’ Betancourt allegedly smuggled into U.S.”
Joel was good his first few years. He was a rising star in the M’s org.
Remember when they were considered to be an org flush with talented arms…PRIOR to King Felix??? Derek Lowe, Ken Cloud, Ryan Anderson, Damaso Marte, Brian Fuentes, Gil Meche, Joel Piñeiro, etc.
What happened??
proof it is true. Gil’s KC press conference
“… this guy is a difference maker, he is a potential number one starter in our minds, we are just so delighted to have him …”
Gil also said he chose the Royals because he felt comfortable…yeah, $55 Million comfortable!
Seeing his press conference brings to mind a question …is there a MLB guideline for press conferences and putting on the team jersey??? Is it required?
I don’t think Piñeiro finding some velocity on his fastball in his early 20′s (remember, he debuted at 21-22) is THAT incredibly historically unprecedented before the 1990′s. It happens.
Also, someone LOSING veolcity on their fastball after an injury (as happened after 2004), also isn’t unprecedented, either.
I don’t understand the animus I see here, since I don’t see anything resembling conclusive proof of more than a guy losing his ability to succeed at his chosen career due to injury, at an age when many of us are just starting our way in our careers and have bright futures to look forward to. I’d consider it kind of sad- though the fact that Joel’s made a few millions probably takes the edge off for him. But hey, maybe some of you got to look in his locker or something.
Case in point: Brandon Morrow.
Morrow — who was diagnosed as a Type I diabetic in January of 2003 — came to Cal with a fastball that ran between 86-91 mph. But at Cal, Morrow’s body composition changed as he started lifting weights. By the start of his sophomore year, he was throwing 96 mph.
Sox signed D-Mat, 6 yrs/52 million
I don’t think Piñeiro finding some velocity on his fastball in his early 20’s (remember, he debuted at 21-22) is THAT incredibly historically unprecedented before the 1990’s. It happens.
Mark Lowe, anyone?
Fontaine and others will draft guys they feel have high velocity ceilings on the gamble that they’ll hit the weights, improve their delivery in the minors, and not blow up their elbow or shoulder.
If it seems historically unprecedented, keep in mind that weight training for pitchers didn’t take off until the 1980s.
#81– per Jon Heyman in SI; “According to SI.com, a source said the sides have reached a six-year, $52 million deal. But Henry followed that up by saying on radio station WEEI that nothing has been finalized.”
“Mariners’ Betancourt allegedly smuggled into U.S.â€
Well… get ready for 162 games of SS Willie “Boom Boom” Bloomquist, people.
It doesn’t matter how a Cuban gets here; once he’s here he’s eligible for asylum. I don’t think this puts him at risk of deportation.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/13/sports/NA_SPT_BBL_US_Player_Smuggling.php
Betancourt was driven from Los Angeles to Mexico to obtain a visa to legitimize his entry into the United States, but his Mexican passport was “determined to be fraudulent,” prosecutors said. He was arrested by Mexican authorities but later released and entered the U.S. again on Oct. 10, 2004, as a Cuban seeking asylum.
The 24-year-old Betancourt, who maintains a home in Boca Raton, Florida, has not been charged in the smuggling case. Last season he played in 157 games for the Mariners, batting .289 with eight home runs and 28 doubles.
Betancourt’s agent did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment. No phone listing could be found for the player in Florida or Seattle.
#86– yup. there seems to be just the one AP report thus far…
I just assumed Betancourt was hanging with Galindo, his Sounders soccer buddy…
In that case, he’s probably OK, unless he does get charged with something felonious in this case. If he is, then it’s a question of whether the Feds will deport him back to Cuba or not under that rule that strips felons of their green cards.
#75
TINSTAAPP baby!
I hate how it’s so hard to get an okay from the government to leave Cuba that people have to be smuggled or sneak out. Especially for people like Betancourt who can’t even see his family.
If it seems historically unprecedented, keep in mind that weight training for pitchers didn’t take off until the 1980s.
Hmm. Was it historically unprecedented for a 2nd baseman to go from a .747 OPS to a .950 OPS at age 31? In a park, furthermore, that proved to be death to “mortal” right handed hitters?
I bet Jose Canseco wished he could have been a part of that 2001 M’s team. Maybe they’ll invite him to the reunion in 2021, anyway.
#90: I think most USSM readers would agree with the statement that Communism Is Bad. (North Korean readership excepted.)
so we are throwing the entire 2001 team under the bus now?
Why a reunion in 2021? Why not 2011 or 2051 (for every plsyer that’s still alive.)
Hmm. Was it historically unprecedented for a 2nd baseman to go from a .747 OPS to a .950 OPS at age 31? In a park, furthermore, that proved to be death to “mortal†right handed hitters?
2nd basemen pitch? I mean, regularly?
90: Yeah! How bout those Cubans! Crazy communists!
I was trying to figure out whether Coach Owens was taking a firm stand against communism or expressing a subtle form of irony. The consensus seems to be anti-communism.
Subtle? Coach Owens?
91: I would like you to present a lot more evidence than the OPS of just one member of the 2001 team to show that team belongs in the same category as Jose Canseco. If you cannot do that (which you can’t), then your comment is absurd.
#89…Yes, TINSTAAPP! But come on!
I would counter under BHABA that we should get at least one good arm out of that early group. Wait…we did get one. Except we traded him AND Varitek for…for… nope, can’t say it! Let’s just call him a bucket of Pigslop!
Wait, and that brings me back to this year. Isn’t a SP more valuable than a RP? Isn’t that what we learned this year in Soriano and Ramirez? Shouldn’t we have been able to trade Lowe straight up for Pigslop?
The M’s should stop trying to play with the big-boys back East.
Hmm. Was it historically unprecedented for a 2nd baseman to go from a .747 OPS to a .950 OPS at age 31? In a park, furthermore, that proved to be death to “mortal†right handed hitters?
Two words: Norm Cash. Go look at his 1961.
Fluke years happen, too.
Thanks for the compliments. I am clever! hehahe.
Corked bats happen, too. But 1961 was an expansion year and a lot of hitters had big years that year (like that Maris guy).
Cash was 26 that year, as was Maris.
Davey Johnson – 1973.
Ooops…did I just think that out loud! Sorry!
Here’s a good article about fluke seasons, for anyone who has never heard of Billy Grabarkewitz
DM to ths Sox for 6/52. This plus the posting fees makes his cost to the team roughly equivalent of Schmidt to the Dodgers on an annual basis. Contract to DM is twice as long but with a younger player. Risks are different, but this feels about right.
I’m not saying. I’m just saying.
I just hoped that the FO would sign one FA(SP) and make one trade this off season that would surely improve the team for 07. Instead of adding mediocrity equal to what we had already(SP).The FA with the best track record(ERA,IP, age and durability) for SP has to be Zito. Yes I expected Boras would want 6/95+. I also expected Bavasi would have to pay Boras 5/85 or 6/100 because it was the Mariners calling(We have to pay more because we are Seattle)instead of a NY or LA club. The one trade of course would have to include Sexson + someone else(Payroll,contract reasons,declining numbers,etc) for a corner outfield stud(Crawford,etc). Finding a trade partner and a match for this trade is the key. With the personnel and current contracts we have now the only way to win is to keep extending the annual payroll towards 100-115M. The Mariners really need to trade the players over 30 and start rebuilding the farm system and the parent club from scratch and build a winner for the future. I hate to admit it but we are at that crossroad now.
Wouldn’t it be tough for Betancourt to be charged with anything in this case, since he was the one who was smuggled in? That’s kind of like charging an unborn baby with a crime because the mom snuck across the border..
Plus, I doubt the feds have the “balls” to deport a major league ballplayer.
Two words: Norm Cash. Go look at his 1961.
He admitted later he used a weighted bat during that season.
101 Cash was in his second full year in 1961 and hit 39 bombs again the next year and 32 hrs at the age of 38 in 1971.
Boone was not only Mariner that shrunk after the testing became part fo their lives.
And Bret Boone hit .320 at age 25, and had seasons with 24, 24, 24, and 35 home runs to go with his 37 in 2001. Rich Aurilia’s 2001 or Davey Johnson’s 1973 is more flukey in the context of his career than Bret Boone’s is.