New extra-fun Vidro trade comment thread
DMZ · December 13, 2006 at 9:42 pm · Filed Under Mariners
… because we now have many threads. Now there is only one.
So, to sum up:
Vidro for Snelling and Fruto.
Vidro thinks he’s going to DH.
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In all the threads, was there a single comment that expressed the notion that this was a smart trade? Unless Steve Kelly posts on USSM, my guess is “no.”
I don’t understand the ussmlovefest for Snelling…the board seems pretty objective of finding faults in most players but not Snelling….most of you guys love this guy waaaay too much…How is he any better than Jeremy Reed?….they both get hurt a lot havent hit much in the majors and tore it up in the minors….last summer someone said that “Snelling will be better than A. Soriano for the rest of their careers.” This is the same Snelling that stuck out 98 times in 336 at bats last year and hit under 220 in triple freakin a. Snelling might turn out ok but unfortanely his career will probably be injury riddled and mediocre……Can’t you guys be a little reasonable and admit this trade has a reasonable chance of success. Vidro could easily rebound to the all-star hitter he has been in the past
To paraphrase Sufjan Stevens, That Was The Worst Trade Ever!
(OK, it wasn’t, but it just kinda fit the mood.)
I can see it all ready the Mariners will say Snelling was blocking Andy Hargroves progression so they had no need for him
2: No, because you might be the only one here who thinks that. Vidro has posted league-average 2B lines the last two years in the national league, and cannot play the middle infield effectively any more. If he’s the full-time DH, he’s easily below league-average there. There were options already on the club that could have done the same job, or a better one. If this means dealing Jose Lopez and starting him at 2B…do you really want that?
Snelling has a lot more power than Reed. He has a chance to be far better in the majors and everyone knows it.
#53 Emiliano Fruto | RP
SPLIT G IP H R HR BB SO W L Sv P/GS WHIP BAA ERA
Career 23 36.0 34 24 4 24 34 2 2 1 0.0 1.61 .246 5.50
#32 Chris Snelling | LF
SPLIT G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA OBP SLG
Career 59 152 20 36 8 1 5 12 2 .237 .339 .401
If you wanna look on the bright side, we traded these unproven at the major league level, marginal prospects for this guy
#3 Jose Vidro | 2B
SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1999 Mon 140 494 67 150 45 2 12 59 29 51 0 4 .304 .346 .476 .822
2000 Mon 153 606 101 200 51 2 24 97 49 69 5 4 .330 .379 .540 .919
2001 Mon 124 486 82 155 34 1 15 59 31 49 4 1 .319 .371 .486 .857
2002 Mon 152 604 103 190 43 3 19 96 60 70 2 1 .315 .378 .490 .868
2003 Mon 144 509 77 158 36 0 15 65 69 50 3 2 .310 .397 .470 .867
2004 Mon 110 412 51 121 24 0 14 60 49 43 3 1 .294 .367 .454 .821
Career Avg 162 581 84 175 42 2 16 75 54 63 3 2 .301 .363 .459 .822
Rotoworld said it best:
I cannot believe this…no wait I can…
So there’s a reasonable chance that Vidro stays healthy, defies the aging process, reverses his recent decline, posts numbers like he did in his prime, and is worth the giant wad of money he’ll be paid in a contract locked in for the next several years?
No, I’m pretty sure that the chances it is a success are not “reasonable”. Throw in that he become even less valuable at the DH position, and it doesn’t even matter what you think of the young, cheap guys they gave up to get him – it just doesn’t make sense.
Won’t it be “sad” if Vidro “accidentally” got hit by a bus tomorrow before he could take his physical?
7: Uhh, no, we traded them for this guy:
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG
2005 30 WSN NL 87 309 38 85 21 2 7 32 0 0 31 30 .275 .339 .424
2006 31 WSN NL 126 463 52 134 26 1 7 47 1 0 41 48 .289 .348 .395
The majority of people on this board might hate this trade but I feel the majority of mlb baseball fans would look at it as a toss up, that could go either way. With the price of free agents, Vidro’s salary is very fair. And he has the ability to play a multitude of positions gives us some nice flexibility. The M’s believe in Adam Jones, and he can easily play where Snelling would in future years. Or they can sign a veteren outfielder which is not very hard to fill.
12: Vidro cannot play the middle infield with any effectiveness anymore. His knees are shot. He would be below-average defensively at 2B and SS. “With the price of free agents, Vidro’s salary is very fair”? What is that even supposed to mean? Everyone else is overspending, so the M’s should too, for a piece they don’t need? What are you seeing that everyone else here does not?
Vidro’s price tag wont look so nice when his numbers for the next 3 years combined are : .260, 20 HR, 80 rbi’s in 260 games
She just called him Chris “Doyle” Snelling on Fox Sports NW.
He’s not the only one:
The Mariners would certainly hope to get more production from Vidro at the designated hitter position than they got from the three players they mostly used there last season — Ben Broussard, Eduardo Perez and Carl Everett.
-seattlemariners.com
Doyle
And Everett is a better hitter than Vidro.
Let me guess “F-Rod’s” real name, hmmm let’s see, oh yeah Bill Bavasi.
Won’t it be “sad†if Vidro “accidentally†got hit by a bus tomorrow before he could take his physical?
Hey Coach Owens? Dial it back a bit.
I have no words. This is beyond terrible. We have a mediocre DH signed through 2009, the team’s significantly older than it was last yearwithout being being better…
Atlanta RELEASED Marcus Giles, and there’s no way he’ll get a contract equal to what Vidro is getting the next three years. Marcus Giles is better in EVERY WAY: OBP, power, speed, defense, health, age… EVERY WAY!
And the M’s could have had him for NO PROSPECTS and LESS MONEY.
F-Rod: we’ve acquired not a second baseman (because he sucks in the field now), but a DH. As a DH, talent like Vidro’s is freely available for nothing, and we’re not paying nothing, we’re paying millions.
This trade hurts this club even if Snelling and Fruto drop dead tomorrow.
Yes, you’re right, we get a little carried away with the Snelling love here. But that’s because he can hit, and he shows promise. But even if he’s a washout in DC or gets hurt again, this is still a terrible, terrible trade. Fruto is also a real prospect.
Do you remember Bret Boone’s last year here? That’s what we’ve traded for. Every other GM in the game is thinking “there’s not even a 50-50 chance I’d claim this Vidro guy off waivers for nothing”. If he could still play second, he might have a little bit of value, but not these millions; as a DH he SUCKS MAJOR ASS.
The going rate for DHs who hit like Vidro is the major league minimum, and always has been. There are probably 250 guys in the minor leagues — guys like Snelling — who can do what Vidro can for no money.
If “most baseball fans” think Vidro’s a good player, it’s because most baseball fans have no clue at all how players age. Vidro is 32. He was good for a short while a long time ago. He’s been lousy for a long time. He’s not going to get better. This is a terrible, terrible, stupid-ass, franchise-destroying, soul-destroying trade. There is NO upside.
Yeah, nobody wants Vidro to get hurt. He’s a good guy. I’d be all for bringing him in on a cheap incentive laden 1 year deal to be our backup infielder/pinch hitter.
Hey Coach Owens? Dial it back a bit.
Why should I? It could be the only way to make this trade fall through.
The Mariners would certainly hope to get more production from Vidro at the designated hitter position than they got from the three players they mostly used there last season — Ben Broussard, Eduardo Perez and Carl Everett.
And I hope to get a pony for Christmas!
It’s not Vidro’s fault though. Vidro shouldn’t be punished. I have nothing against Jose Vidro. If anybody should get hit by a bus, it should be Bavasi before he gets a chance to sign the final paperwork (not that I condone that either)
Did Vidro waive his trade-claus or what? Jim Bowden probably paid him to though.
My question: Is this worse than Varitek and Lowe for Slocumb?
My thoughts are yes, in that there was at least a little bit of rationale for Slocumb (he filled an actual need, made the team better at the moment, didn’t have a ridiculous contract.)
27: No, we paid him to by giving him a vesting option for 2009
We have a mediocre DH signed through 2009
That’s simply not true. He’s only a mediocre DH through 2008. In 2009, he becomes a $6M 25th man.
#27: M’s gave Vidro a vesting option for waiving the NTC.
28: I’d say no, simply because the talent traded in the Slocumb trade turned out to be very good and would’ve filled harder-to-fill needs than RF and RP.
I mean that Bowden “secretly” gave him a couple extra million dollars so he would waive his No-Trade-Claus so they could get some decent prospects into their lineup.
I sense the evil hand of Hargrove in all of this. Things went seriously downhill since they committed to keeping him on another year. First the Bloomquist thing, which shows you the organization learned nothing from last year, and that any hopes for Snelling getting more playing time were disappearing quickly (remember the Reed-Bloomquist non-platoon platoon?). Then the Guillen signing, which showed how much he wanted to be able to pencil in a veteran in RF. Hargrove was never comfortable using Snelling last year without platooning him, just like he did with Reed. Not veteran enough. And Hargrove was largely responsible for last year’s suck-ass DH acquisition. Hargrove is a goddamn idiot, and I feel like these moves are about making him comfortable, because he sucks at managing young players. We just traded a couple of promising young 20-somethings for a 32 year old 2B who can only DH anymore. And costs $6m a year. This actually makes complete sense – if you’re a horse’s ass named Mike Hargrove. That’s the only explanation I can think of.
Bowden tried to trade Vidro several times last couple seasons… Wouldn’t Bavasi be at least a little curious why NONE of the deals were done?
Bavasi’s an idiot, he won’t suspect anything.
K..synopsis of the offseason…sign Guillen (not bad), trade soriano, get a bum #4…trade snelling for a declining DH with 15 HR potential if 100% healthy….sign Batista…#4 pitcher…BUT…to save the offseason…Extension to Willie Bloomquist..OMG…you all forgot about this…see, Bavasi isn’t that bad (K, this is sarcasm..hard to do through the computer)
It’s offseason’s like this that lead to long term problems. In the past week Bavasi has done real damage in cleaning out the cupboards for the future of our franchise. This last week is kind of like finding out your parents robbed your scholarship fund to supplement their gambling habits.
I like the write up Jeff has over at LL. Vidro is our Jay Gibbons.
I go away for a couple of hours and THIS is that you do to me?!?! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Just this morning I was wondering if the M’s could use Marcus Giles… it wouldn’t cost them anything. Then we decide to throw away two players to pick up someone not as good?!??!
Is Bavisi really still working for the Angels sent here to make sure the M’s never compete for years to come?!?!
In 2009, he becomes a $6M 25th man.
I was thinking more that year’s Bret Boone Memorial Unconditional Waiver recipient…
It’s not that Chris Snelling was ever going to conquer the world. He seems to be the sort of guy who is likely to be a passable to good corner outfielder, a guy who contributed just enough to a good team to put them over a hump.
I don’t think that anyone thinks that trading Chris Snelling is the end of the franchise. I think that people see that a mind that trades Chris Snelling for Jose Vidro is a mind that cannot ever repair the franchise. It says, “we’re not even trying anymore.”
Back in the usenet days, I used to post a chronology of how the Mariners’ pissed away 96-99. I could chart every free agent escapee and how the Mariners replaced him with someone more expensive. For example, Tim Belcher could have been had for about $800,000 for the 96-99 seasons or so. He pitched many innings at a decent ERA during those years for KC. Seattle replaced him with slop for the first half of 1996 and gave up Bragg to get Moyer half way through the year. Don’t get me wrong, I’m really glad they obtained Moyer. He’s one of my all-time favorites. But, with both Belcher and Moyer, they probably would have won the division that year. After 1996, they let Mike Jackson go (without even calling him). He signed a 2-year deal with Cleveland for $3 million (I think) and they tacked on an option for a third year. Jackson became one of the best closers in the league. The Mariners traded for Slocumb and paid him almost $1.5 million for the last half of 1997 and then signed him for $3 million for 1998. They spent $4.5 million (to say nothing of Lowe and Veritek) for 1.5 years of Slocumb when they could have had Jackson for three years at the same monetary price.
But at least back then, I could understand why they made the decisions that they did. I thought those decisions were clearly erroneous, but they were not irrational. I was frustrated beyond belief.
Now, just despair.
Looks like Bavasi’s trying to corner the market on Joses coming out of the nations capital. I’m on the verge of legally changing my name if it will net me a few million from the Ms. “I look forward to being the Mariner’s emergency starter”
As a side note, I’ll always remember how cool it was that Vidro signed an extension in Montreal for less money becuase he wanted to be with the team when it finally moved. It was real classy. He was one of the reasons I was really excited that the Expos were moving to DC. This is not to give my approval to this idiotic deal, but more an attempt to sooth my aching soul.
Don’t worry; I’m sure WFB will have a new extension by then. Vidro will only be our 24th man.
fuck
Vidro is our Jay Gibbons.
Except Gibbons isn’t an old fat guy who could have a “heart attack” at any second.
This is by far the worst offseason in club history. When I read the news, I was screaming “NOOOO!!!” so loud my family asked me if there was something wrong. I didn’t think it was possible that we could do worse than how we did last year, but now looking at our roster such a thing may not be impossible.
Does Mariners front office really care about winning? I don’t understand just about every move made this offseason. Doyle and Fruto for Vidro? This is going to go down as reverse Jay Buhner deal. We gave out too much for an overpaid mediocre player. I don’t understand this trade at all -unless they come up with another followup trade to justify this. Sure, Doyle is fragile, but he’s young. And it’s not like Vidro is super healthy either. Not to mention Fruto is a decent pitcher.
At least Doyle goes to a team who may give him a better chance. I will continue to be a member of the cult of Doyle, and I only hope he will stay healthy. He’s got all the tools to suceed minus health.
I’m still hoping I wake up in a couple hours, and realize that Carl Everett is still our DH. /pray
THAT is how bad this trade is.
Lach on Mariners!
Anybody noticed the “Chris for GM” logo was changed?
Remember how pissed off we all were back when Cruz got traded for (Timlin?)? This is about a hundred times worse. I don’t think it’s up there with Sterling Hitchcock or Heathcliff Slocumb. But it’s painful.
My belated apologies to Derek and Dave, from back when I still did the Mariners blogging… I tried to defend Bavasi as a GM – even went so far as to say the Mo Vaughn signing “wasn’t that bad,” (of course it was) – but mea culpa: you were right. Bavasi was a bad choice, and he badly needs to go. Now.
Bavasi: “We just need more Joses. Anybody got Jose Offerman’s number?”
No…longer…understand…logic…of…Mariner….baseball.
Extend WFB, take Soriano out of the mix for a #4 arm in Ramirez, sign Guillen and Batista, trade Snelling and Fruto for Vidro when we likely could have had Giles for less.
So we’re moving the logjam position from OF to IF, taking 2 arms out of the bullpen without adding any to it, assembling a rotation of “Felix and the Other 4″ (proposed new M’s marketing jingle: they may suck, but they’re consistent), spending money getting older, and…forget it.
If performance like this happened in a conventional business instead of baseball the stockholders would be demanding the CEO’s head and…oh…
I think this is worse than Hitchock or Slocumb because it makes no sense at all. With Slocumb, they needed SOMEBODY and fast. They shouldn’t have needed somebody. And, they didn’t need someone at that cost. But, they got somebody. Trading Hitchock was getting rid of a guy whom Piniella just didn’t like at all and who did seem to quit a bit early. In return, they got a guy who was arguably capable (Christmas Tree).
Can someone explain the need for Vidro? They don’t need a DH and they don’t need a middle infielder. Even if Vidro can play 2B, they don’t need him.
Can someone explain why they needed to ditch Snelling? I’m just plain confused by it all.
Well, I just wrote to the Mariners and, I kid you not:
a) asked if I can get a refund for my season tickets.
b) asked how to begin the process of selling my PSL.
I am so blown away by how bad this offseason has been. Remember the letter they sent back in september? The one which told us all that Bavasi and Hargrove were the right guys for the job? Including the phrase (which I quoted in tonights letter) saying “our main off-season focus will be on upgrading the starting rotation”? In what way has this even been REMOTELY accomplished?
While it sounds extreme, I actually think if they refuse to refund my money, I’d consider filing a small claims court case against them for my money back, on the grounds that they failed to deliver on their main off-season focus, which I based my (rather expensive) purchase on.
Just plain pissed…
The Mariners have made many moves that I’ve hated, but at least I sort of understood the (wrong) rationale behind them.
This morning we had two potential DHs on the roster. Snelling who despite a bad September hit 250/360/427/787 and Broussard who hit 289/311/484/795, though struggled after the trade to Seattle.
We “upgraded” to Jose Vidro who hit 289/348/395/743. That’s only one year of stats but in this case it seems representative of what you might expect from all three in 2007. That’s a bad, but understandable, move if we trade Jeremy Reed and the Nationals agree to pay most of Vidro’s salary.
But we took on $6M/year for three years to downgrade a position, and we gave up prospects to do it. As Nate Silver said we got older, worse, and took on payroll. Next week I’m sure I’ll be angry, but right now I’m just confused. Does Bavasi want to pretend that 2004, 2005, and 2006 didn’t happen and Vidro is a 29 year-old 860 OPS guy? Does he think you somehow if you have a good hitting second baseman he’s still a good hitter if you play him at DH. Indeed this is Carl Everett all over again, but this time it cost us prospects as well.
Yes, this is the worst trade in Mariners history because not only might it turn out bad if either Snelling or Fruto turn out to be useful players, but it’s obviously bad at the time of the trade AND it hurts us for three seasons.
#54: Can someone explain why they needed to ditch Snelling?
Best answer I can come up with is that his name isn’t Jose and that’s messing up the upcoming “Jose in July” promo? Sorry. This entire offseason makes zero sense.
It seems to be often mentioned here and other various placesthat bad contracts add up. Even if by themselves, they don’t totally sink a franchise, they add up.
Cost, 2007-2009
Miguel Batista, $24M
Jarrod Washburn, $30M
Jose Vidro, $12M plus the possible vesting option
Total, $66M+
Cost for Daisuke Matsuzaka, 2007-2009
Posting fee, $51M
2006-2009 salary, $26M
Total, $77M
And that’s counting all of Matsuzaka’s posting fee over the first three years of the contract and basically assuming that Vidro doesn’t get his option year.
If you’re a little more adventurous, you might go so far as to say that Matsuzaka’s contract is probably backloaded, maybe 40/60, and say that at DH, Vidro stays healthy and makes his option for about $6M. That would even it up at $72M over the next three years.
Anyway, that it even works out to be close is pretty ridiculous. So many crap contracts on the team now.
I’ve never been a big fan of Snelling. I think he’s fragile, without power and has an old body for a 25 year old. His only asset is his ability to draw a walk. I liken him to Jason Kendall without the ability to pay a “premium” position.
That being said…this trade makes even less sense than the one that moved Carlos Guillen out of town. I thought that was the low light for Bavasi but this tops the cake. Not only is Bavasi a bad GM but he’s going to be a bad GM that strips the franchise of any value on his way out the door. We’re talking about an almost Isiah Thomas like franchise handicapping on his way out. It’s going to take them 5+ years to recover from this off season.
IMHO, what is most confusing is FO traded for (Broussard), signed (Jose #1), and traded for (Jose #2) THREE DHs last couple months…
Does that mean anybody interested in Ibanez?
I’m happy to see Snelling go — for Snelling’s sake. It spares him a year spent getting jerked around either by Bavasi (on the Tacoma shuttle) or by Hargrove (buried on the bench) and feeling like he has no meaningful role.
Desperate times for the GM and manager call for desperate measures. This says to me that neither one is all that concerned with 2008 or beyond.
Listen, I am a huge fan of Snelling, and I think this is a horrendous trade, but I can’t call it the worst in Mariners’ history. It’s definitely a hell of a lot worse than the Jose Cruz, Jr. trade. At least the return on that trade gave us a decent bullpen arm for a season. But Heathcliff Slocumb. That name still strikes fear into my heart.
Frankly, I’m afraid to see what Bavasi does next. He’s already traded two of my favorite Mariners. I expect Lopez may be the next to go. Then it will just be Ichiro and Felix. Though the Snelling trade is the final straw for me with Bavasi, if they let either of those guys go, this team is dead to me.
Oh, and how bad of a GM do you have to be to get fleeced by Jim Bowden?
This is all utterly astounding. It’s as if Bavasi is deliberately trying to ruin this team’s present and its future, and make us all miserable at the same time. He’s mentally bankrupt. A drunk Jim Bowden, blowing .25% on the Breathalyzer, could make better trades. Or, better still, pass out on the floor and do nothing harmful.
Every level of management in this organization reeks of incompetency and total cluelessness about how to run a baseball team. If this is their idea of improving a franchise, I can’t imagine what their idea of bringing on ruination might be. If only they’d start thinking like George Costanza…do the exact opposite of what seems right to them.
Heh. The fact that Jim Bowden is involved on the other end didn’t even occur to me while I was ranting!
I’ve never been a big fan of Snelling. I think he’s fragile, without power and has an old body for a 25 year old. His only asset is his ability to draw a walk. I liken him to Jason Kendall without the ability to pay a “premium†position.
Average? Power? Arm?
I do agree with your premise, though. He’s been injured a lot and let’s face it, those do add up and they never completely heal. I’ve been through enough injuries to know that myself, and I don’t even have to take the field and swing a bat every day. Personally, I don’t think of him as anything like Kendall, though.
Anyway, you’re right, with both ends in consideration it truly is crippling.
55b) asked how to begin the process of selling my PSL.
Do you have a buyer already lined up for your Charter Seat License? When other commenters on this blog asked me a couple of months ago why I didn’t just walk away from my season tickets if I was so dissatisfied, I found a CSL offered for sale on eBay (opening bid was close to the amortized original purchase price) and the auction expired without a single bid.
Unless you are prepared to all but give away your CSL, I fear you are stuck with it.
Listen, I am a huge fan of Snelling, and I think this is a horrendous trade, but I can’t call it the worst in Mariners’ history. It’s definitely a hell of a lot worse than the Jose Cruz, Jr. trade. At least the return on that trade gave us a decent bullpen arm for a season. But Heathcliff Slocumb. That name still strikes fear into my heart.
Varitek and Lowe were/are good, and Slocumb sucked, but at least he didn’t cost about $20 million for three years and bloat (!) a position we already had covered. It was a nasty trade, probably worse, but probably closer to this one than a lot of people want to think.
sorry, I am not too familiar with how the decision making process goes when it comes to trades / free agent signings / etc., could somebody care to explain?
Obviously Bavasi is an idiot, but shouldn’t there be others who can stop him from making these dumb trades? Or does he get to make these calls on his own?
Shouldn’t you guys change the color scheme of USSM to all black in mourning or something?
The worst part about this whole trade is negative return in Pun Possibilities (PP). Snelling rhymes perfectly with smelling, an inherently funny word. Fruto, I think, goes without saying. Just think of the possibilities. For that, all we get in return is Jose Vidro. I can’t think of a single pun to go with the name Vidro.
Talk about wins and profits as much as you want, but at the end of the day baseball fandom is all about puns. We just traded the future of our team’s pun-making abilities.
Thanks a lot, Bill Bavasi. Looks like we won’t be having a Bavasi’s Day Parade any time soon.
Just remember people, you can still go to mariners.com and vote for Snelling as breakout player of the year. Vote early, vote often, he’s in second with 27%.
It is going to be 5 years before we get out of this nightmare.
71: Great post…Fruto was my fav.
Whoah. I almost bought a Foster’s at the store tonight, to toast the departing Aussie. Then I realized that Fosters sucks, and it would be adding insult to injury.
This sucks.
Please don’t go after this season, Ichiro. You are the only thing left in Seattle that doesn’t utterly suck.
71: Someone’s smokin’ Weedro? A guy we don’t Needro?
So where does Ichiro go in 2008? Yankees? Dodgers? Japan? He’d be crazy to stay on this PoS club.
I don’t drink that much, which is especially true concerning beer, however there are some decent Australian ones. I can personally recommend Swan Valley Stout. Not sure how easy it is to obtain around these parts, though.
To those who mentioned Marcus Giles upthread, he’s probably not a fair comparable to bring up. He will be playing 2B for some team next year and likely would not have been willing to become a DH with the Mariners.
Of course, that doesn’t make this trade any less of a debacle.
So where does Ichiro go in 2008? Yankees? Dodgers? Japan? He’d be crazy to stay on this PoS club.
You mean July of this year? Oh wait, no, they’d never get anything in return for him. They’ll just let him walk at the end of the season and not even offer arby since they wouldn’t want to chance that he would accept it, come back and, you know, be a good ball player in this town.
We need garbage-pile retreads on multi-million-multi-year deals so everyone can ignore them while watching the Moose. The Moose is a Proven Winner and improves ratings by 34%.
Uh, did I mention that the Moose is actually sending subliminal messages to buy more merchandise?
Bavasi… Worst deal ever… Please wake me from this horrible nightmare. Bring back DOYLE!! He was the only exciting thing to watch at the end of last season. There’s no way these guys are going to hit all season and consistently…
He’s sabotaging our Mariners. This is RETARDED.
Somebody stop him before it gets worse!!! What’s next? Ichiro for Lofton??? Heck if you wanted a DH with power, Giles or EVEN RAFFY. Hello???? This is D U M B.
To those who mentioned Marcus Giles upthread, he’s probably not a fair comparable to bring up. He will be playing 2B for some team next year and likely would not have been willing to become a DH with the Mariners.
I think those were saying if this was to facilitate a move of Lopez/Beltre/etc. In that case 2B & 3B could have been shared by the remaining of those two and Giles.
Either way, though, bad, bad thoughts all around.
Look at it this way, this is just the sort of event to make Seattle take some real action to keep the Sonics.
I’ve been watching a lot of basketball this season. Maybe I should switch to a franchise with a future, like the Sonics.
Oooooh.
Do they have the suicide nets up on the Aurora Bridge up yet? Seriously? Do they?
Bill Bavasi to fans: Merry Christmas, assholes!
If ANYONE gets the chance, PLEASE ask Bavasi how much more he would have given up for Vidro if the Nationals had paid all of Vidro’s salary…Clement, Jones or who…
If Vidro was a free Agent, where would signing Vidro for 3 years / $20 Million rate on the worst contracts list…I know there are worse, but I think it would be in the top 5 or 6.
If Vidro was a free Agent, where would signing Vidro for 3 years / $20 Million rate on the worst contracts list…I know there are worse, but I think it would be in the top 5 or 6.
Probably not as bad as signing other replacement parts for 5/~$50.
It’s not like it would be good though, just because other people are inhaling cyanide doesn’t mean the person sitting there wafting it is any less an idiot. Then to think that he gave up a chance to have a dinner and be at home with his family, just to be there amongst the others.
Ugh.
I have to confess, not following the stats as much as all y’all, Snelling was kind of my Willie Bloomquist. I mean, what Bloomquist presumably is to the uninformed masses. A fresh-faced kid (well, at least that what Bloomquist is to senior citizens) who I could root for and hope to have increasing success. And of course kickass, in the case of Doyle, because I respect the collective USSM opinion base.
So. Clearly phone calls and e-mail aren’t going to do anything. But can you imagine the press a protest on opening day outside the stadium would get? It’d be big. If we could get even a hundred people together, some of whom cancelled season tickets, some of whom vowed not to buy any tickets or merchandise until [x] happened… just the sight of a big group of pissed-off fans out there with signs and banners and hate has more potential to make change than 8,000 letters, I bet.
At least it’d make us feel better! I’d go!
I thought about this trade over, and I think for Snelling’s sake this is good. He’s too good to waste any more time in AAA or be on the bench waiting. He needs to play often on major league level, and clearly Mariners wasn’t the team that was going to provide him that kind of opportunity. It seemed pretty clear to me Mike Hargrove wasn’t a big fan of Doyle so he’s better off in Washington D.C. Doyle’s future is brighter now that he’s outta here. (And it hurts me to say this, but it’s so true.)
Bavasi seems like a guy who believes a player deserves a chance to have a career -which is part of the reason why he traded Shin-Soo Choo, and perhaps it’s also why he traded Snelling: for whatever crazy reasons Doyle was not part of big picture ‘Ms FO was planning, and he was going to be wasted either in Tacoma or bench if he stayed here.
Wow, for a second I almost forgot that it’s Jim Bowden who’s the Nationals GM. He got a great deal, no doubt. He added two excellent prospects to the list of quite many interesting prospects he scored this offseason.
Yeah, our FO sucks -they have no philosophies, and have done so much damage that even if we do clean the house, it will take us few years to undo all the damage. Once upon a time we were at the top of the division with excellent prospects all over the minor leagues, and those days seem like such an old memory.
Is this FO determined to make me NOT follow the ‘Ms next season? I’m having a very hard time figuring out why I should bother rooting for them next season. In any other organization, the house would have been cleaned long time ago, but not this franchise.
I have not read all the posts so these points may have been brought up:
1. Vidro is a good hitter when he’s healthy. He started out last year looking like he was going to have a good year, then got injured midway through (June or July I think). Playing DH might help him out. Still, health issues are a big RED FLAG with this guy… Is Bavasi color blind?
2. Bavasi’s seat sure is hot! If I was a GM I’d be trying to lure Adam Jones and/or Jeff Clement away from him about now, puting just about any starting pitcher I had on the line hoping to get a bite.
On the twelfth day of Christmas,
Bill Bavasi sent to me
Twelve pitchers loosing,
Eleven thousand seats empty,
Ten dollar beers,
Nine ladies for the lineup,
Eight September call ups,
Seven trades in question,
Six million for Bloomquist,
Five DFA’s!,
Four righties missing,
Three 5th starters,
Two games worth watching,
And whole lotta bullshiiiit!
Bavasi has gone off the deep end. None of this makes any sense. I cant get my mind around the reasoning. 7 million dollars! The Mariners are going to be the laughing stock of the league.
The only response I can think of is to jump on the ground kicking and screaming, “I hate you! I hate you! I hate you!”
My son bailed last year and rooted for Detroit all year. I might have to join him. Maybe Santa will get us Detroit hats for Christmas.
Hooray Emerald!
Jeebus, this offseason is grim. Just two weeks ago we were smug that by not doing anything we were not getting suckered. Now, this.
Emron should be our new corporate name.
No more pizza feeds with Bavasi, eh?
I have read U.S.S. Mariner for a long time. I love the ideas presented and most the analysis. I also have a tendency to disagree with most the posts on a pure fans perspective. However, this last transaction, as well as all of the previous over the last few months (especially the trading of Absdrubal for a guy we cut 3 months later) have led me to registering and posting for one simple reason. Something needs to be done from a fans perspective. Us, as consumers, have got to have some kind of sway in things. Some kind of organized boycott, protest, or basically anything needs to be done. I am about to graduate from WSU in May and was looking forward to my first employed purchase being Mariners Season Tickets. Now….I as much as I still want them, can’t in good reason pay money in fear, and I use fear becuase it really is fear, if I give the Mariners as an organization anymore money they will keep doing what they are doing.
93 is our post of the day.
I have a question for Dave, though I’m not sure he wants to answer any right now: Did you have wind of this before it was happening or was this a quick one that you weren’t prepared for? I assume the phonecall at the Christmas party is a hint, but maybe you knew something was in the works between us and the Nats.
Just curious. You usually warn us before bad shit like this happens.
Very simply, what this trade does is point out in crystal clear terms, that the M’s (and by “the M’s” I mean Bavasi and Lincon) don’t have a plan. I have never really had a problem with any local sports team that I love making bad moves. The bottom line is that to build a successful sports team you have to sometimes take risks and make moves that the public might not like. But…….
and I do mean BUT!!!!!!………
I just want to see a plan.
The M’s don’t have one.
All they have done this offseaon is get older, and more… ordinary. I don’t mind my team getting older as long as they’re getting better. This does NOT make the team better. If Chris Snelling does indeed ever go 2 or 3 or 4 years without suffering a major injury, he WILL prove that he was the greatest hitting prospect we’ve produced in the last 15 years. And this trade will haunt us for decades.
The only way this deal makes sense is if Bavasi deals Broussard for a powerful young arm with tons of potential, AND signs Zito.
Anything short of that, and die-hard, emotional fans like myself will finally, reluctantly, jump ship.
And that… is a tragedy.
I spent the night dreaming this:
2007: .314/.390/.529 EqA: .310
2008: .311/.389/.524 EqA: .309
2009: .309/.391/.527 EqA: .311
2010: .313/.394/.539 EqA: .315
It was one of those really great dreams where you feel a stinging sense of loss as consciousness comes like a thief in the night and you begin to realize those feelings weren’t real…..but I felt them right?
The sad thing about this whole trade business is this: Vidro really is a guy to celebrate….he embodies a lot of the reasons I watch sports-basically he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and with heart, courage and conviction worked his way to something extraordinary…
Sigh, I would rather just read the book though at this point in Vidro’s career. Average DH’s are plentiful, they don’t require giving up prospects and helping leather-pants wearing scuzzballs out of a payroll bind… Ahhhhhh but average DH’s probably aren’t easy to sell in hardback…
Unfortunately now Vidro becomes a symptom of a dysfunction that is so much a part of the Ms character that its becoming clear that it isn’t likely to change. At some point, I realize (that point is probably now), it will be time to say, “I just can’t live like this anymore-I will always love you but…..”
I’m going to collide with the air I breathe… it’s sad to contemplate pausing in a quiet moment and mourning that the Ms won’t be with me…
and now a haiku:
Sweet melancholy,
Mourn my very happiness,
For what could have been…
I just wish Zito would sign with the Mets so this horrible offseason would be over.
I’m hoping that Beane makes a trade with the Nationals that brings Doyle to Oakland. I’d love to see him make the Mariners regret this trade in person 19 times a year.
If the USSM crew takes up on Lauren’s idea, I’ll be there.
To paraphrase the Beatles, “I read the news today, oh #?@!” I really don’t want to root for the M’s to lose so Bavasi & Hargrove get canned, but it looks like that’s what’s going to happen regardless of what I root for.
Feh. I feel dirty.
I’m done with this team until Bavasi and/or Hargrove is gone. Lincoln would also be good. I hope that the team loses 110 games next year just so that this can happen. I used to feel conflicted about this, because I would like the team to compete but also want them fired. But now it has reached the point that if they aren’t fired the team will be mediocre-to-sucky forever, and teases like last June aren’t worth that being the Mariners’ future.
The ONLY thing that could save this would be if the M’s pulled off an even-greater fleecing of another team. But come on. You think that Bavasi can do that? If he could do that, he wouldn’t have done this.
From now on, forget about it. I’m not watching any Mariners’ games unless Felix is pitching, but Bavasi is probably going to trade him to the Cubs for a box of Sammy Sosa baseball cards.
One of my friend’s brothers always used this as his personal Mariners slogan, and I can see this year it could be more applicable than ever before (thanks Bavasi):
Refuse to Lose … Ignore the Score!
The only thing I will be rooting for this season is the firing of Lincon, Bavasi, and Hardgrove.
Peter Gammons
In addition to those pitchers, the BoSox have Schilling and Wakefield. How many of those would be considered TOR guys?
In contrast, the Mariners in DESPERATE need for a top of the rotation guy, trade Soriano for Ramirez and Snelling/Fruto for Vidro…a broken down, expensive second baseman.
I’m copywriting right now my new book title “The Dismantaling of a Profitable Baseball Team. A Case Study of the Mariners”
If this isn’t grounds for immediate termination I don’t know what is.
At this point, the only entertainment I can possibly hope to derive from the Mariners’ games this season is the amusement of watching the M’s broadcasters scramble, trying to find a positive spin to put on this team. They try way too damn hard to accentuate the positives, of which there have lately been none.
I have to join the Hargrove blaming camp on this one. Not because I think Bavasi’s been perfect, but because he at least did things that made sense.
Well, on the first hand, I do think the trade sucks. It would have been a great trade, oh, 4 or 5 years ago.
but, a few things to note:
1) Snelling has -never- contributed in all this time we’ve been talking about. He has all the hallmarks in the world of a guy who’ll never have a healthy year. So trading him isn’t in itself a bad move.
2) It would have been nice to get an outfielder for him.
Okay…I’ve had some time to think about things.
First, if you don’t feel Snelling is going to be healthy enough and has lost of step because of his ACL injuries, wouldn’t this be the BEST time to trade him while he has some value?
Second, I know Vidro thinks he’s DH, but why would I bring in a declining hitter to play a position he’s never played before? I don’t think stepping in to DH is as easy as some people think it is. You’ve got to train yourself mentally for keeping your focus in the game.
Third, Could another trade be brewing for pitching? (this is my wish because I can’t imagine Bavasi doing TWO stupid trades in a two week period…I mean…sure, one stupid trade, you got caught up in the emotion of losing Schmidt and all the deals happening around you at the meetings…it could happen. But after being relentlessly excoriated by ALL since that time….you would thing Bavasi wouldn’t make a second stupid trade.)
Who needs a second baseman and a left-handed bat and has some pitching to trade? Dodgers? Boston?
Mr.Dave…any whispers of another trade swirling around?
Oh, oh…I know! The M’s are gearing up a BLOCKBUSTER trade with the Sixers for AI!!!
In Bavasi’s defense … being fleeced by Jim Bowden isn’t as much of an insult as people here seem to think. Between getting Lopez and Kearns from the Reds in exchange for random spare parts, signing all the good minor league FAs, and now this deal, he’s had a pretty good year (well, except for the whole not trading Soriano in July thing).
I’m thinking that the Kevin Mitchell trade may have made more sense than this one (nah). Maybe Snelling will fail his physical. Would that nix the trade? Baker doesn’t mention the possibility. It’s bad when poor knees save the GM from himself.
There is a serious problem with this franchise revolving around the DH position–always has been, even in the latter Edgar years. They’ve been really bad at plugging the hole with expensive or fading (or both) veterans (Lee Stanton year 2, Bob Robertson, Willie Horton, Richie Zisk, Jeff Burroughs, Gorman Thomas the list goes on) who, even if productive for a short time, had no future with the team and no ability to play the field. Edgar solved the problem, but strangely, new problems cropped up when it was clear they had no flexibility when he could no longer play defense, plus when interleague play came into being, it presented another difficulty because his bat was so important. You can’t afford to have a bad DH, but when the DH is your best hitter, that’s not perfect either. I always wondered whether the Mariners would have trouble in a World Series because of the Edgar problem.
Unfortunately, any problems Edgar presented look very good right now, because BB seems bent on going back to the broken-down veteran mode for filling the position. Only with Vidro, you get little power and an albatross contract, plus the loss of prospects. Burroughs, Thomas, and company didn’t cost this much in relative terms. A sad, sad day.
Geez, I just came back from Vegas to read THIS. And to think, I thought I’d reached the point where I could no longer get MORE emotionally uninvested in this team. Apparently I hadn’t, though I’m hard-pressed to figure out what they could do next to make it even worse.
(Oh no, I just thought of some things and now I’m going to try as hard as I can to purge those thoughts from my mind before they materialize…. this is how my experiences at the craps tables went as well….)
I hope Doyle has a long and fabulous career with the Nationals. Best of luck kid.
I have never understood the love or forgiveness that’s been often on display here for Bavasi, though he is a very charming man and I’m sure, a good husband, father, brother, son, etc. That seems like history though.
JMB: I like the button change; I would suggest additional versions, perhaps saying ‘before MORE damage is done’ or something to that effect. I’d still like to see Kim Ng get a shot, but I agree that Howard and Chuck are unlikely to be the first to break that particular glass ceiling. So bring on Antonetti….and do it quick.
Snelling and Fruto have proven nothing.
Vidro is an all star caliber bat.
Back off people. This trade makes us better.
From this Giants fan to my suffering Mariner fan cousins: I’m sorry. This upcoming season, I pledge to bring up our experience with Edgardo Alfonzo fewer than fifty times when discussing Vidro with my Seattle friends.
Hmm… A slap switch hitting, declining, #2 slot DH? Didn’t we trade him for Jesse Foppert a few years back?
The trouble with Snelling is he walks too much. Mariners have to be aggressive at the plate, not passive. That’s why Betancourt is such a good hitter, right?
116 – Care to elaborate on how this makes us better?
What is sad about this is I actually like Vidro. I just don’t like how stupid it was to trade those two and then take on most of the salary. That and we don’t have anywhere to put him…. Sheesh.
Snelling and Fruto have proven nothing.
Vidro is an all star caliber bat.
That’s the exact recipe to create a bad team, you know. See Orioles, etc.
And, at that, what we’ve seen from the two shows that they are NOW better than Vidro, and if they’re like typical playeres, THEY will improve, while Vidro will decline.
No, you don’t back off from pointing out obviousness…
ah. to quote lyricist Larry Hart, “the self-deception that believes the lie…”
#116: Following that logic Wayne Krivsky should be fired because he failed to trade Homer Bailey for Luis Gonzalez at last season’s trade deadline…..
So I go to mariners.com, and I get this page:
Mariners.com
Cardiac Mariners? WTF? That just seems so fitting.
Anyone else notice that we’ll have one white dude in our starting lineup next year? Of course I’m not saying that this is good or bad. You just hear so much around here about the FO seeking out local white guys for the fan base. Is there anything to this?
Snelling and Fruto have proven nothing.
While Vidro has proven that his best years are long past.
Vidro is an all star caliber bat.
That was an entire war ago.
Back off people. This trade makes us better.
Nonsense. Snelling is a better hitter now and going forward–without being a huge cost.
Can we pool our money and take a out a full-page or half-page ad in the paper calling for Bavasi to be fired?
I’d contribute some $$$ to that…
So I go to mariners.com, and I get this page:
I don’t know what’s going on but that is absolutely hysterical.
Screenshot saved so I can have something about these 24 hours to share and laugh over with the grandkids one day.
Yeah. When was the last time ANYBODY got outsmarted by Jim Bowden. When you come out blatantly on the wrong side of a trade with the guy who locked up Christian Guzman for millions of dollars, you need to take a long hard look at yourself.
Sorry Bill. You seem like a really decent guy, but you have no more business being a major league GM than I would.
according to the Post’s Barry Svrluga on the radio this morning (when asked about Vidro’s knees) they are ok, and he started working out early this off-season — something he has never done in the past — because he now realizes that his knees mean his career.
The man is a 32 year old infielder and he is just now figuring this out.
1) Snelling has -never- contributed in all this time we’ve been talking about. He has all the hallmarks in the world of a guy who’ll never have a healthy year. So trading him isn’t in itself a bad move.
What might all of those hallmarks be, pray tell? Does he have a repeatable skill in getting injured? If you say so, then what are the other hallmarks?
from Corey Brock:
Even after a night of sleep, this still puzzles me. I would love to have some reporter eventually ask either Bavasi or Grover why they think that Vidro will outperform Snelling as a DH. Even if Vidro does, given the salary discrepancy, he better outperform Snelling by a quite a margin.
The only thing that I think can save Bavasi’s reputation is if he knows that he can’t fire Hargrove and he also knows that Grover won’t use the quality young players on the roster (Choo, Reed, Snelling, Jones, etc.). Bavasi’s only option, then, is to try to find useful players whom Grover would play. This does not completely exonorate Bavasi by any means, but I feel that moves such as this one point to a poison in the FO that extends beyond Bavasi. Firing him, which may well be warranted, would not cleanse or heal what is wrong with the M’s.
Keep an eye on the Alexa ratings for NovaRayMedical.com after it updates for Dec. 14th. Should be interesting to see how high the chart spikes up after it doesn’t even show a graph now, being a grand #5,432,875 site on the Internet.
Think they get any paying customers thanks to the M’s?
I can even contribute anything positive to this discussion.
For those that think this is a great deal for us….this is not the Vidro from the 2000 Expos.
Even after a night of sleep
You slept?
*Sigh*
Gonna be a long day.
When I start botching code I will give a hearty “thanks” to Bavasi.
Snelling has -never- contributed in all this time we’ve been talking about.
if you don’t feel Snelling is going to be healthy enough and has lost of step because of his ACL injuries, wouldn’t this be the BEST time to trade him while he has some value?
Snelling and Fruto have proven nothing.
And that’s why this is a terrible trade. Even if you take the most pessimistic view on what the Mariners gave up — that Snelling will never be healthy enough to contribute and Fruto will never be good — and you don’t value young prospects with good minor league records this trade doesn’t help the Mariners.
Vidro is an all star caliber bat.
Vidro was an all-star in 2003. So was Bret Boone. That’s FOUR seasons removed from 2007. Vidro’s SLG% has dropped three years straight as have his BB%. He’s missed time due to injury three seasons in a row. He was an all-star caliber bat at 2B. On the optomistic side, he might be an above average bat at 2B now. But he isn’t going to play 2B, he’s going to play DH where his bat is well below average and he replaces Broussard who has similar numbers.
So even if you believe Vidro makes the team better, does he make the team $6M better? Is he better than Marcus Giles who certainly would have signed a 2/$12M contract and wouldn’t cost prospects. Viewed simply as DH vs. DH, is there anyway he’s $12M better than Snelling over the next two years? To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if Snelling is $12M better than Vidro over the next two seasons.
Salary aside, I’m curious how anyone (especially anyone in the Mariners front office) concludes that this trade makes us better.
It’ll be interesting to hear what Ichiro thinks about all of this. I know I’d want off this sinking ship, pronto.
When Ichiro leaves, I hope that he at least says something really cool. I can’t come up with anything off the top of my head because I’m not cool like that, but something along these lines would be great:
Reporter: “So, Ichiro, why did you leave the Mariners to play for the Athletics at half the pay?”
Ichiro: “Atama no naka ni kaiso wa arimasu.”
Translator: “Ummm…I didn’t like the sushi in Seattle.”
“Lemme se, um, is Vidro going to be the backup 2B,SS,3B, or is he going to back up the backup, Bloomquist? And how will I get Willie his 250 at bats?” I’m sure these are the most important, acute, and far-reaching questions that Hargrove must be asking himself.
As for Lincoln, T. S. Eliot said it best:
“one of the low, upon whom assurance sits like a top hat upon a Bradford millionaire.”