M’s sign Chris Reitsma
Wondering how they’d fill the hole created in the bullpen by the loss of Rafael Soriano?
Say hello to Chris Reitsma, who the M’s signed today. One year deal, club option for 2008 with a $700,000 buyout. It’s either going to be a 1 year, $2 million deal, or a 2 year, $4 million deal.
Like every other pitcher they’ve acquired this winter, he’s a groundball guy, so that’s a positive, but unfortunately, that’s about where the good news ends. He’s a failed former prospect turned decent enough reliever who was terrible in ‘06 due to an elbow injury that cost him most of the year after having ulnar transplant surgery. The Mariners are hoping he returns to his ‘04/’05 form when he was simply decent, but he’s not significantly better than guys like Justin Lehr. He costs a lot more, though.
Might mean less use of Mateo, so it’s okay.
But it’s still meh.
Bullpen is now Putz-Sherrill-Mateo-Reitsma-Huber-Woods essentially. That’s not very good.
So that means outside of Batista, who’s just mediocre and overpriced, everyone we’ve acquired this offseason is either a bit player like Lehr or White, or has significant injury questions, like Vidro, Guillen, Ramirez and now Reitsma.
This feels very much like Woody Wooodward loading up on guys like David Segui, Butch Huskey and Butch Henry back in 1998-1999 all over again- spending buckets of cash on many mediocre FAs instead of concentrating on one or two really outstanding ones and filling in with replacement-level talent.
This team on paper looks like it’s 85 wins, but I think injuries and age will put it at 75-80. Again. Oh well, I guess that gets Bavasi and Hargrove fired, so there is an upside.
My initial reaction is that Reitsma would serve us better as a crappy starter rather than being used a crappy reliever, but I need to do more research.
Nah, Mateo is still the go-to-guy in the 6th/7th inning when we need a groundball .
Just what the Mariners need: another failed arm from the Atlanta Braves. Oh well, at least Bavasi didn’t trade Putz for him.
Bullpen is now Putz-Sherrill-Mateo-Reitsma-Huber-Woods essentially. That’s not very good.
Surely Washburn-Batista-Ramirez will be handing the ball over straight to Putz most of the time, so it’s probably not a big deal.
Reitsma is just one more guy with no upside. What an expensive boring crappy offseason.
I think we can realistically expect at least 230 IP from all three of those guys.
Surely Washburn-Batista-Ramirez will be handing the ball over straight to Putz most of the time, so it’s probably not a big deal.
You sound just like Hargrove and Bavasi, and the Mariner annoucers. When is somebody in the F.O. goning to have the balls to say this team sucks?
I can just see the local papers spinning this in typical fashion: “Mariners shore up bullpen, looking to make even more moves!”
It’s not that bad of a move.
Probably the best one we’ve seen the Mariners make, unfortunately.
RE9: Each or in total?
hey, at least Segui played good defense
this doesn’t seem to be really the trend anymore…
Combined, even!
Seriously, though, I kinda liked Reitsma 4 years ago. Now? Just put another bandaid over that gash across the chest. Maybe it’ll hold.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Bavasi has a deck of Topps cards from four years ago and that he makes all of his player acquisition decisions based on the stats from those cards.
Barf.
I’m guessing Reitsma’s “closing experience” is all Bavasi needs to sell a Putz-to-BoSox trade to management by All-Star Break.
So why did we dump Soriano again?
Sometimes I get the feeling that Bavasi has a deck of Topps cards from four years ago and that he makes all of his player acquisition decisions based on the stats from those cards.
Ha. Funny that I was reading an article 2002 Top 100 Prospects the other day that had some interesting names on it.
3. Sean Burroughs
9. Joe Borchard
and of course:
8. Ryan Anderson, but that’s just a big bowl of wrong and neither here nor there.
That’s pretty much how this front office works, Bavasi or no Bavasi. They’ve been stuck using 19th Century methods in the 21st Century, and are reluctant to do anything that smacks of projection or probability.
Their only grace is that so many of their peers are stuck in the 20th Century…
So we could get a head start on the suitors for Ramirez’ services, in anticipation of him being non-tendered a few days later…
What is the big plan of those in charge? Why spend payroll on players that can easily be replaced with better and less expensive options? As I have learned readind this site over the years decent players become available towards the end of spring training.
It would seem the Ms have time this year to wait and see who becomes available later. It does not appear there was an urgent need to plug the holes (dh, pen) they filled paying a high price in talent and dollars.
Granted it doesn’t take much but this off season has me totally confused.
It’s easier for them to market players of whom the fans have already heard. That has to be it.
So you’re more familiar with Chris Reitsma than Soriano?
well thus far they have stayed away from this guy:
“I think I’m more valuable to a team — starting-wise — because I have a rubber arm. I’ve been known to throw a lot of innings. I enjoy being out there longer than one or two innings. Before last year I threw [almost] 600 innings in three years. I’m looking to getting back to the role.”
Really? Same price, I’d rather have Franklero over a broken down reliever. And whatever you feel about Ryan, remember he cares, dammit!
No, these bozos (Armstrong, et al) trust people with a “track record” more than they do players who don’t have track records (i.e., vets over rookies). They have it in their heads that rookies have vastly bigger uncertainties than vets.
like almost everyone else in sports.
Since he’s the 41st guy on the 40-man, is this the point at which we trade Reed for a “prospect” and/or cash considerations?
if healthy, this will be a nice,low-risk move…and if he pitches well, he might be a good player to move for prospects to a contender when lowe makes it back…assuming the best case scenario of seattle condending doesn’t happen…
Mike Hargrove: “In the bullpen, one of the most valuable qualities a pitcher can have is consistency, both in terms of being available and in the results he provides.â€
Translation: “(Chris) Reitsma will give us consistently crappy results out of the bullpen, and those results will be compounded exponentially because they will be frequent.â€
Reitsma:
2004: 3.66 FIP, 3.98 xFIP
2005: 2.82 FIP, 3.71 xFIP
Lehr:
2004: 4.65 FIP, 5.31 xFIP
2005: 4.63 FIP, 4.75 xFIP
2006: 4.69 FIP, 4.75 xFIP
Will he be ready by spring training? Any news on his recovery from surgery?
Should be ready to go for spring training. Recovery time is between 5-6 months and he had the surgery in early July.
I, for one, am glad to see this. And I know I’m in the minority here.
But at this point any patch is better than none.
I hope they will pony up another couple mill for a low-risk maybe-starter later too.
What this team needs is competition for every pitching position. Handing rotation spots to guys like Ramirez and Batista is bad news. As is counting on Lehr and Huber in the pen.
At least bring in somebody to challenge them for their spots and make them earn their way on the roster.
I hope they sign five more guys just like Reitsma between now and spring training and just throw the whole bunch in the blender and hope something not too sickening comes out. Worst-case scenario they are out a couple million bucks. Not my problem.
How the hell did we go to that? I mean, I know how, but didn’t we end the season with a good bullpen? Wow.
How the hell did we go to that? I mean, I know how, but didn’t we end the season with a good bullpen? Wow.
Don’t worry, at least we have:
Hernandez
Washburn
Batista
Ramirez
Baek
I seriously think that we’re one injury away from a 90+ loss season.
#37 And losing Hernandez to injury would ensure that 90 loss season.
Wow. Have you people actually looked at Chris Reitsma’s numbers or are you just taking a cue from what Dave said?
Reitsma’s been a valuable RP, much moreso than Justin Lehr has ever shown. He had a documented injury in 2006, one that would seem to explain why he sucked. Said injury is likely to be 100% healed by spring training.
Raffy, BTW, FIP of 3.55 last year, which is right about Reitsma’s level established 2003-5. And you cannot claim that Reitsma is anymore of an injury risk than Raffy or anymore expensive.
Just brings a horrid off-season back to its beginning…we traded away a younger, more promising arm (all-be-it as injury prone perhaps), for a pitcher that was dime-a-dozen this year (Thomson anyone??)….and then came full circle by replacing Soriano with an older pitcher, coming off of elbow surgery who has been an underachiever and in decline (I thought this offseason was about getting rid of them not signing them-Vidro..Reitsma).
Having said that..If we had signed Thomson and kept Soriano, and added Reitsma, this signing would look A LOT better
I think maybe it’s the dream of some hardcore fans that they would be getting rid of the older guys and building for the future.
But I’ve never heard Lincoln, Bavasi or Hargrove say any such thing.
I would venture to guess that they know that doing so would pay them no dividends personally, since they won’t be here to enjoy any success three years from now.
Maybe Bavasi would rather be fired mid-season, if this old-guy thing doesn’t work, than be the guy that has to trade Ichiro come July?
40-Instead, this signing has me more than convinced that Ichiro will be playing elsewhere after his contract expires. Any one else concerned about this? Or do you see it as inevitable – or obvious – that there’s nothing that can done about it?
42-I hope our managment has the ‘balls’ at the mid-season point if Ichiro is unhappy, to trade him…it would be wildly unpopular to ‘boomquist’ type mariner fans, but it would NEED to be done to get value back for him…And Im concerned the Mariners wouldn’t do it.
Either fans will be pissed when we trade Ichiro, or they will be pissed when we fail to re-sign him. What’s the difference?
44-I totally agree…but the management can blame Ichiro for leaving…and ‘dumb’ fans would be angry at Ichiro for leaving.
I kind of home we can get some young prospects for him…not an angry fan base at Ichiro when he is in a Yankee uniform..haha
44-But will fans be pissed at Ichiro for not wanting to resign with the Mariners? Can anyone on this board blame him for wanting to move on?
[Piniella]
Reitsma’s been a valuable RP, much moreso than Justin Lehr has ever shown. He had a documented injury in 2006, one that would seem to explain why he sucked. Said injury is likely to be 100% healed by spring training.
Say we completely forget about 2006. It never happened. Going into 2006, Reitsma’s PECOTA-forecasted ERA had him at a 4.24 equivalent ERA, and his forecasted peripherals put him at about a 4.07 FIP. Lehr’s been right around a 4.65 FIP the last three years.
Now, remember that 2006 happened. Reitsma’s injury may be healed enough for him to pitch, but will he really stay healthy? Even if he is healthy, will he regain his effectiveness?
I guess I can see having a better outlook for Reitsma than Lehr going into the season, but I don’t see the difference as all that large. As far as spending $2M for a bullpen arm goes, you could do worse, but it’s nothing to get all that excited about.
Mike Hargrove on ESPN: “Bavasi said Soriano is a great talent with more power, but Reitsma is more consistent.”
Mike Hargrove on ESPN: “Bavasi said Soriano is a great talent with more power, but Reitsma is more consistent.â€
What. The. Hell. At least Hargrove is smart enough to “subtly” blame Bavasi for these two moves in comparison.
Hargrove could be a White House Spokesman for any administration the way he and Bavasi spin things…its disgusting
SCENE: Seattle coffee shop
BAVASI: I really need to replace the tires on the ‘77 Mariner. And I think one of the headlights is burned out.
DAVE: Well, you know, if you go to Costco, you can pick up a set of pretty good quality tires for cheap. And hey, call Rainier Automotive in Tacoma; I bet they have a headlight sitting around on their shelves.
LINCOLN: Wait. That all costs money. And I need to buy everyone Wiis.
DEREK: Speaking of, where’s my Wii?
DAVE: Look, you’re going to spend money on your car anyway. Buy decent stuff for cheap. You’ll get more out of it.
BAVASI: Wait! I got it. I have a buddy in Atlanta with a couple of retreads that might fit the front wheels. I’ll have him UPS them to me.
DAVE: You’re an idiot. The cost of shipping those tires is what a new set of Costco tires would cost.
BAVASI: You know, I think he’s going to want something in return. I’ll send him my catalytic converter.
DAVE: OK, you’re really an idiot.
BAVASI: But hey, it’s cheaper than buying them new, right?
LINCOLN: You know what I love about that car? The Bloomquist Glasspak. Makes it run real fast and purty.
DEREK: Uh, a glasspak isn’t an engine, and WHERE THE HELL IS MY WII?
BAVASI: You know, I should really get rid of the stereo in that car. I know it’s got some kick, but it’s so balky. I know. I’ll send it to my buddy in Washington. He has an old AM radio. I bet that plays CDs.
DAVE: That’s it. I’m out of here. You guys make me want to drink — and I don’t drink.
DEREK: AND WHERE THE HELL IS MY WII?
Nice, dw.
Here’s one big difference:
Reitsma: 585.1 career IP in the majors, 379 career IP in the minors
Lehr: 83 career IP in the majors, 769 career IP in the minors
Reitsma has waaaay more big league experience. He’s demonstrated his stuff works against major league competition. Lehr still has to prove that, IMHO.
54- Seems like all we do is never give our young guys a shot..we just trade them for older guys who have simply proven they are mediocre
Hi Guys, This is my 1st post to USS MARINER. It looks like this is THE place to be for knowledgeable baseball/mariner fans. I cant wait to get the season started. I am a mentor/youth pony/high school coach of Justin Lehr’s, and VERY close friend. I also coached the following players in youth pony: Mike Young, Mike Lamb, Aaron Rowand, Chris Woodward, Danny Haren, JJ Davis, and Lawrence Phillips (yikes), and I pitched on the adult league that Alfonso Soriano played on, when he was working out for the scouts. there were alot of scouts who came to my games (I thought it was to clock my 78MPH heater). I guess there’s not much need for a 50 year old control pitcher. About Justin Lehr. He is a hard nose baseball player with a strong desire to win and accel. He was Barry Zito’s catcher at ucsb(santa barbara) and he was a great catcher and hitter. Yost called Justin the best fielder on the team, and the quickest move to first for any righthander he’s seen. Your catcher will love the way he holds runners on. He got about 7 guys last year on the “play-that-never-works” supposedly: the fake to 3rd,throw to first. He closed for Sacramento’s AAA for 2 years before they called him up on A’s. His 1st game upon callup he struck out Derek Lee. Sammy Soto, and Ramirez with 97 mph and splitter. He has 4 quality pitches, 2 seam, good curve, change, and splitter. He is more suited for starter, which is why he chose to go to Seattle this year, for a chance to win a starter spot. But he’d rather pitch relief for M’s til something opens up, then start for Tacoma. He has very good mechanics and has never had ANY arm problem, which is a plus for the pen. His stats over just a short sample each year are not good, but he had 2 games where he gave up 3 to texas and 4 to Red sox,(not bad hitting teams) in a mop up situation, which he doesnt like (who does). For a reliever, without alot of innings, it’s harder to overcome a couple of bad innings. but no excuses.
so Bavasi selected him in high school, then college draft, when Bavasi was with Angels, but he didnt sign, because Angels wanted Justin to pitch, Justin wanted to catch. Oh well. And like someone earlier wrote, he really hasn’t been given a fair chance. Anyway, lets get it on. I travel around to games since I’m retired. I will see some of you guys in Peoria maybe. Thanks for lettin me ramble on. Go M’s. I am/was an Angel fan since I live in LA area, but whatever team Justin’s on I follow and am a fan of M’s now. I don’t know much about your team except it seems like you have a very good starting 9 position players, but it sounds like pitching is questionable at best. I don’t give any opinion of players based on stats, but rather how they perform in person or tv.
Mike
Where is my Wii, anyway? This is getting ridiculous.
I think it’s stuck at the Denver airport. Or, if it’s coming via UPS, it’ll get here shortly after the PS-4 release. But, then again, it could’ve been traded to a blogger in Atlanta along with Doyle.
From the Chris Reitsma ESPN profile:
I think the “(elbow)” pretty much sums up our front office incompetence.
Say we completely twist numbers to make them appeal more to what we want. PECOTA projected Lehr for a 5.56 ERA and 5.43 PERA compared to 4.47 and 4.28 for Reitsma.
If you want to talk about FIP, then fine, use FIP.
If you want to talk about PECOTA, then fine, use PECOTA.
Don’t cross the two and cherry pick which to use in order to try and pass your argument off as legit. It’s not.
Reitsma, by either measure up to 2006 has been about 1 ERA point better than Lehr. Over the course of a season, he’s worth about 8 runs, or 1 win more than Lehr. That’s worth what they’re paying him.
Reitsma injury isn’t detrimental to his “stuff”. It caused numbness in his hand, which would make it pretty difficult to pitch effectively. The surgery removes the numbness.
If you want to talk about FIP, then fine, use FIP.
If you want to talk about PECOTA, then fine, use PECOTA.
Don’t cross the two and cherry pick which to use in order to try and pass your argument off as legit. It’s not.
Fine, then we’ll use Reitsma’s actual 2006 performance against Lehr’s actual 2006 performance and Lehr beats the pants off Reitsma.
I wanted to compare 2006 performances. I was giving Reitsma the benefit of the doubt that his performance this year was a fluke and the best way to estimate his performance would have been using his PECOTA forecast. We don’t need to do that for Lehr because we have his actual performance in hand and his actual performance is more valuable information than his year-old PECOTA forecast.
Call it twisting the numbers if you like, but in my view, considering all of the information Lehr looks like a 4.50-5.00 FIP/ERA/whatever pitcher going into next year and Reitsma looks like a 4.00-4.50 pitcher going into next year. That’s something like a 4-5 run difference over 80 IP, and safely smaller than the margin of error on whatever projection we’re making on either player.
Over the course of a season, he’s worth about 8 runs, or 1 win more than Lehr.
At the top, Dave claimed:
Even if the difference is as much as 8 runs, that’s not a significant difference. No one–not me, not you, not Dave, not the Mariners–is good enough to accurately project player performance to single-digit run precision.
Anyway, like I said before, you could do worse for $2M, but it’s nothing to get excited about. I’m not really against the acquisition, but I think Dave’s point about Reitsma v Lehr stands.
If you think 2006, when Reitsma was hurt and Lehr was not, is a legit comparison to make, then you’d be right, Lehr and Reitsma would be interchangable. I think differently.
I would agree that Lehr looks like a 4.5-5.0 RP. I disagree that Reitsma is a 4.0-4.5. He’s been 3.5-4.0 when healthy. Even a half-run of ERA is “significantly better”, a full run is markedly better.
Picking up a win, even just one, for the cost of 0.9-1.6M is a good investment. Sorry if you can’t be excited about that.
Here is a question. What would be worse, the Mariners winning 75 games and the whole F.O is fired, or the M’s winning 90, making the playoffs and losing in the Divisional series
It would really depend on what steps were taken after the FO was fired. Who would be brought in? Would they share the same philosophies?. Likewise, if they made the playoffs, what would follow? Would they think they had the magic formula and go on to trade Adam Jones for the broken down remains of Javy Lopez? Toss in Jeff Clement if that’s what it takes?
Unfortunately, making the playoffs and then axing the FO probably isn’t an option, because it would be nice. I miss October baseball in Seattle. I also miss competence in the FO (well, I suppose that means it had to have been there…).
Either end could be something nice, or it could finish up with the same old problems.
Bavasi on Reitsma’s ability to close if needed:
“He’s got the stuff, and his makeup as a closer is off the charts,” Bavasi said.
Yeah, his makeup is so “off the charts” that he has blown 36% of his save opps the last 2 years.
Also – does that mean Mariano Rivera’s makeup is “off Reitsma’s charts”?
63, if A includes Lincoln, then I’d say B is worse.
Sorry if you can’t be excited about that.
No need to be sorry, you made some good points. Perhaps my lack of excitement is to be blamed on the weather or something.
Not a bad pick up, not a great pick up. Seams worth the risk, especially with the relatively cheap club option. If he has a full healthy, productive year he could be a valuable piece to deal the following year. I would much rather have him than Joel at twice the price. This team is slowly picking up 1.5 wins with each off-season move. Pretty soon we will be at 86 games. I would bet that we don’t get last in the West now.
Perhaps my lack of excitement is to be blamed on the weather or something.
Really. It was dreary all day, and raining and windy all evening. My power went out (again) briefly around midnight.
We need something like… oh wait, even the record high for today’s date is only 56.
Yeah, sure.
His name sounds like a disease and I think it could describe the whole Ms offseason so far…a bad case of Reitsma.