Rotation roundup, Sherrill’s struggles, Majors for Morrow?, Ichiro: “Icky!”
AP story: M’s announce starting rotation. King Felix, Washburn, Batista, Ramirez, Weaver the Lesser. Is Jeff Weaver, at $8+M, the most expensive fifth starter in baseball? Hmm. Hargrove did say that given Weaver’s veteran-ness, they won’t be skipping the fifth starter even when given the opportunity by the schedule.
I can’t decide if this headline is amusing, or sad. “Sherrill lowers ERA to 15.00.” Ouch. I’m sure he’s got this one pinned up in his locker.
Also, Mark Lowe begins throwing this week (multiple sources).
As for young Brandon Morrow…
PEORIA, Ariz. – Final roster decisions won’t be made until next weekend, but one thing has become a near certainty for the Seattle Mariners.
Rookie pitcher Brandon Morrow, a spring training invitee who has just eight games of professional experience, has all but made the team.
“I don’t have a whole lot of problem with it,” manager Mike Hargrove said Saturday. “There’s been a lot of discussion but if he continues to throw the way he’s throwing, I know what my recommendation is going to be.”
Finally, from the Arizona Republic:
Ichiro laid down a perfect drag bunt that started a winning ninth-inning rally against the Oakland Athletics. During the postgame celebration, Piniella, his manager – arguably most exuberant and extroverted manager in baseball since Billy Martin – rushed up with a bear hug and a big ol’ smooch on the cheek.
Ichiro didn’t say much at the time but later told a Japanese TV crew: “It’s something that makes most Japanese men want to throw up.”
Uh huh.
Comments
56 Responses to “Rotation roundup, Sherrill’s struggles, Majors for Morrow?, Ichiro: “Icky!””
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
I agree with the analysis of the other day about starting Morrow in the minors, however, I am so sick of losing that the idea of him coming north is exciting. Having said that, I just wish someone besides Grover was handling him. He’ll do to him what he did to Lowe, burn him out..
A couple of points on Morrow.
1. I wish they would put him at AA and start. Dave wrote on this a day or so ago.
2. I can’t stand Grover, but, unlike Melvin, I have not seen him burn out pitchers, starters or relievers. He doesn’t always use the best relievers at the right time, but I can’t think of either statistical or anecdotal evidence that would lead me to conclude that he overburdens young (or old) arms. Again, as Dave said in an earlier thread, Lowe’s injury had absolutely nothing to do with Grover or Lowe’s workload in the majors or the minors.
As Dave mentioned in the comments the other day, Lowe’s injury had nothing to do with the way he was handled.
http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/23/what-to-do-with-brandon-morrow/#comment-167535
I was at that Opening Day game in 2001, and felt like Lou did. It was freezing cold, and all the excitement had drained out of the stadium long before that. The people I went with were asking to leave, but I wanted to see Ichiro one more time after all the pre-season hype. Ichiro’s bunt awakened the Safeco faithful and the team did what it would do many times that year. Ah, good times.
Morrow most definitely should not be in the major league bullpen to start this season. Holy crap.
Didn’t Hargrove’s recommendations lose all credibility after Carl Everett? Don’t answer that.
Here’s to hoping that Morrow gives up 5 earned with 5 home runs in 1/3 of an inning in his next spring outing.
Sure it’s stupid, but that doesn’t mean I won’t absolutely relish watching him strike out Athletics and Angels while Mateo and Reeks-ma look on from the pine.
Morrow coming up is a GREAT move. Morrow will not forget how to start because he is relieving for 2-3 months. He makes the M’s better NOW and if they move him to a starter in June then it will work out perfectly. His innings will be limited to about 130-150 this way as well, so fatigue shouldn’t be a factor. He gets the Earl Weaver treatment and all is well.
Putting him in AA/AAA as a starter does little more than run up his IP and ensure that his only value to the M’s this year is as a reliever. Now, if the M’s leave him in the pen then I agree it is stupid.
Add that to the list of Hargrove’s faults: he does things that makes the team’s superstar want to throw up. Unfortunately, the list is so long I don’t think that one even makes the top ten.
Somebody tell Ichiro that Hargrove frequently makes the rest of us feel the same way, and that’s just from watching him manage.
9
May want to reread that post…
Any chance that Aaron Small, he of the 11.25 ERA in 4 IP, somehow manages to slip ahead of Sherrill onto the 25 man roster?
I’m thinking the M’s FO probably considers his 10-1 record for NYY in the 2nd half of 2005 is as significant as Jeff Weaver’s 2006 post-season record…
I think the point is that he hasn’t learned how to “start” against major league quality lineups… 50 innings from the Ms bullpen has an opportunity cost associated with them,,,,,that’s 100 innings in the minors learning how to adjust to seeing a guy more than once, mix three pitches effectively, gain stamina, learn to pace himself etc…
IMHO, the using him out of the pen in this instance definately would stunt his growth as a starter…
You can’t forget to do what you haven’t done. Unless you think that starting in college is remotely like starting in professional baseball.
I’m sitting on the fence moreso then Dave about Morrow. While he said he’s torn, he made his opinion and that’s what he’ll stick to.
I, on the other hand, have not. I see both sides of the arguement and have not made a choice. I do think that maybe some of us are being awfully alarmist here about Morrow’s future prospects as a starter. Some have cited Soriano as a similar example of the Mariners taking someone who could start and using him in bullpen work. The thing is, before Soriano’s injury, he was still slated as a future starter and they did stretch him out over the winter.
Lots of arms come up first as relievers. Yes, they’ve had time in the minors to start first, but without enough precedent for us to take furthur example from, how can we say this is automatically a bad thing for Morrow’s future?
I agree that a “standard” course of education and training is probably the best for Morrow. But I am curious to see where this avenue takes him too.
I’m under the impression that we’re not “one bullpen arm away from taking this thing”, so I don’t see why you would risk the bright future of your best pitching prospect.
There’s other guys competing for that spot who will do just as well (Huber…)
I know we all want to dump on Hargrove but let’s not dump on him for things Piniella did.
Aaron Small? Doubtful. If they carry a lefty other than Sherrill, it’ll be O’Flaherty.
Why would anyone think Morrow makes the M’s better now? He has pitched 16 innings as a professional, none above A ball.
He had one good year in the Pac-10, making 14 starts. Before last season he pitched 54 innings the previous 2 years combined, and his numbers were terrible.
Even last year, he allowed 39 walks in 96 college innings and 9 walks in 16 professional innings. Sure he’s a fine prospect but he needs to show that he has the command to succeed against good hitters before there is any reason to believe he’s ready to be effective at the major league level.
7 spring training innings — even 7 very good innings — don’t change that.
Would that all the 2007 regular season M’s-A’s games end like this one did, a win after being tied in late innings.
It’d be nice to think the West Coast version of the Yanks’ “mystique and aura” has finally worn off the green and gold (and I don’t mean the Sonics).
Meanwhile one of the reasons Morrow is even under consideration to be misused and/or abused is the the Soriano trade. Rafael has pitched 8 innings for the Braves so far in the spring, gave up one hit and one run (homer), struck out 12 and walked none. His ERA, as meaningless as spring training itself, is nevertheless1.13.
Guess his arm is feeling okay so far.
Wasn’t it Jeff Nelson who (when referring to the Yankees) said that mystique and aura were names of exotic dancers and nothing more? LOL
I could envision a scenario where Morrow makes the Ms better this season.
That doesn’t mean I’m in favor of him promotion…
How do you guys see the M’s bullpen coming out of camp?
Putz, Mateo, Reitsma, Rhodes, Sherrill (probably), Woods, and either Sean White (has pitched well, and has to be returned to Atlanta if he doesn’t make the team), Morrow, O’Flaherty, Green, or Huber?
Off topic but, [deleted, off-topic]
I am pretty sure it was Curt Schilling who made the “mystique and aura” quote just before the Diamondbacks’ victory over the Yankees in the World Series. A classic.
[deleted, off-topic]
[deleted, off-topic]
That was doomed from the get-go.
How much prep have the best pitchers need historically?
I frame the question with an anecdote that may or may not be real. We were all boys (and girls) once, weren’t we?
I was a little boy sitting with my Dad in Roseblatt Stadium in Omaha, late 1950s and all the talk is how the starting pitcher that evening, Bob Gibson, is headed to the big club in St. Louis. I can still hear the smack of that ball hitting the catcher’s glove. (Or I think I can.)
So, my dream or memory aside, how long did some of the greats prepare in A, AA, AAA? I am speaking only of those who came up since the minor leagues were comparable to today’s clubs. Maybe a preliminary debate is – how long ago was that?
I love hanging out with people who know a lot more than I do.
RE: 15
If you’re going to write the team off before we’ve even begun to play than why even bother watching?
There is a surprise team in baseball every year. The Mariners are a bucket full of luck away from being that team.
So…I guess that makes me a bring Morrow up now guy if we have that hole in the pen. I don’t believe he’ll be tainted by the experience one way or the other.
The more I think about Morrow in the bullpen, the sicker I get.
Let the kid start in the minors, throw 130 innings, and THEN bring him up if you please. He needs to learn how to get professional hitters out the second and third times through a lineup.
How much prep have the best pitchers needed historically?
It’s exceedingly rare to find a starting pitcher who jumped straight to the majors with as little professional experience as Morrow has now. Some recent examples of college relievers who made the jump with little time in the minors:
Craig Hansen, first round pick of the Red Sox in the 2005 draft as a reliever out of St. Johns. He pitched 12 2/3 innings after signing, then made a 3 inning stint for the Red Sox in September and competed for a job in their bullpen last spring. He got 38 innings in the majors, got torched, and spent another 47 in the minors. He won’t make their club out of spring training this year.
Huston Street, first round pick of the A’s in 2004 as a reliever out of Texas. He got 25 innings in the minors after signing, then blew everyone away in A’s camp during the 2005 spring and went on to be a dominating closer his rookie year.
Ryan Wagner, first round pick of the Reds in the 2003 draft out of Houston, pitched 9 innings after signing before getting the call to the show and dominating in his first 21 major league innings and being anointed the Reds closer of the future. He then took a major step back with his command in 2004, struggled again in 2005, ended up in the minors and then traded in 2006, where he’s now hoping to make it as part of the Nationals staff, where he’s now teammates with…
Chad Cordero, first round pick of the Expos in the 2003 draft out of CS Fullerton. He got 26 innings after signing, then jumped to the majors and became an effective reliever for 11 innings in September. He’s gone on to establish himself as one of the better closers in baseball the past three seasons.
Two success stories, two failures, though its obviously too early to write off Hansen or Wagner as career busts. It should be noted, however, that Morrow is really nothing like any of these guys. He didn’t experience anything like the success these guys had in college and he has significantly less experience pitching out of the bullpen. He also wasn’t drafted to be a reliever, and none of these teams selected these guys with the idea of later reconverting them back to the rotation.
Morrow could pull a Huston Street and have a hell of a year for the M’s, solidifying the bullpen and being worth several wins to a team that could use several wins. Even those of us in the “this isn’t a great idea” camp will acknowledge that possibility.
It’s also true, however, that there’s a sketchy track record for this kind of thing, and that there are obvious risks that have to be accounted for. Ryan Wagner and Craig Hansen were more major league ready coming out of college than Morrow is, and neither one has established themselves as a major league pitcher several years after being pushed quickly to the majors.
It’s not a lock that Morrow’s going to be a relief ace from day one. This isn’t an Albert Pujols situation, where the guy’s just obviously too good for the minor leagues. There are a lot of benefits to having Morrow start the season in the minors, and the chance of success isn’t as high as those supporting the move would have you believe.
It’s a pretty big risk with an asset the organization shouldn’t be risking.
Can we just automatically replace all Corco posts with [deleted, off-topic]?
The most important thing to realize is that the Ms are not one good relief pitcher away from being contender.
The worst thing that could happen? Morrow makes the club, thus taking the spot that Sean White would have otherwise earned, resulting in White having to be sent back to the Braves. THAT….might just sum up Bavasi in a nutshell.
Beyond that… aren’t we perhaps getting a little too worked up about this? Most likely, if Morrow does head north with the team, anything short of him being a dominant bullpen sensation and he’ll end up being sent down again at some point in the first half and returned to his rightful role as a starter.
Put me in the camp that likes the idea of Morrow starting the season in the Mariner’s bullpen. He’ll get plenty of opportunity to pitch since I doubt that a lot of the starters will be going deep in the game. Morrow comes on in relief, gets his feet on the grounds, learns the batters, doesn’t appear to be the savior, works for me. Though, the Twinkies did the same thing with Liriano last year and look how wonderful that turned out — yikes!
Beyond that… aren’t we perhaps getting a little too worked up about this? Most likely, if Morrow does head north with the team, anything short of him being a dominant bullpen sensation and he’ll end up being sent down again at some point in the first half and returned to his rightful role as a starter.
Pretty unlikely. The M’s didn’t relent on any of their overzealous promotions last year, letting guys like Matt Tuiasasopo, Asdrubal Cabrera, Rob Johnson, and Jeff Clement take their lumps at a level they had no business playing at.
If Morrow breaks camp with the club, he’s going to have to be downright bad to get returned to the minors. They won’t send him back for just being okay.
Though, the Twinkies did the same thing with Liriano last year and look how wonderful that turned out — yikes!
Liriano had 484 minor league innings before making his major league debut in 2005. Rushing a prospect to the majors isn’t the golden path to finding a Cy Young winner.
I think the freaking out about Morrow making the big club is way, way overblown.
- The guy started all through college (and BTW there isn’t any sort of chasmic gap between college hitters and low minors professional hitters), as recently as last year, and, if 100+ years of baseball history and all the guys who started their big league pro careers in the pen, Morrow is probably not going to “forget how to start” in relieving for a season or even two.
- The guy was essentially projected as a reliever anyway. The pick itself was dubious in the first place given concerns that he’d even have the durability to be a big league starter.
This decision is not the apocalypse. In fact, it’s probably the best thing to happen to the pen in a while. Your freaking out isn’t even thoughtful skepticism at this point.
Why don’t you think there’s a huge gap between college hitters and low minors professional hitters?
I think the freaking out about Morrow making the big club is way, way overblown.
Care to show examples of anyone “freaking out”, or would you rather just beat up a strawman?
- The guy started all through college
No he didn’t. He started 5 games in 2004, 5 games in 2005, and 14 games in 2006. Only 24 of his 43 college appearances came as a starter.
And BTW there isn’t any sort of chasmic gap between college hitters and low minors professional hitters.
Yes, there is.
if 100+ years of baseball history and all the guys who started their big league pro careers in the pen
Find me a guy who pitched less than 20 innings in the minors, then had a successful career as a major league starting pitcher.
Morrow is probably not going to “forget how to start†in relieving for a season or even two.
It isn’t a question of forgetting. It’s a question of learning skills he doesn’t currently possess. He certainly won’t learn them coming out of the bullpen.
The guy was essentially projected as a reliever anyway.
Not by the Mariners, he wasn’t.
The pick itself was dubious in the first place given concerns that he’d even have the durability to be a big league starter.
The questions weren’t about his durability.
This decision is not the apocalypse. In fact, it’s probably the best thing to happen to the pen in a while. Your freaking out isn’t even thoughtful skepticism at this point.
Considering you’re wrong about every point on the issue, I think you might want to reconsider your opinion. You might also want to redefine your opinion of freaking out, considering that no one around here is doing anything close to that.
I noticed a pattern with the four pitchers Dave offered up:
Craig Hansen, first round pick of the Red Sox in the 2005 draft as a reliever out of St. Johns.
St. John’s has competed in a few College World Series, but they’re not what I’d call an elite college program.
Huston Street, first round pick of the A’s in 2004 as a reliever out of Texas.
Texas is an elite program and competes in a historically strong college baseball conference (Big XII).
Ryan Wagner, first round pick of the Reds in the 2003 draft out of Houston
Houston has had some good years, but they play in a mid-major baseball conference (C-USA) and lately have been outshined by their rivals down the road (Rice).
Chad Cordero, first round pick of the Expos in the 2003 draft out of CS Fullerton.
Fullerton is an elite program that more often than not ends up in Omaha come May. Their conference isn’t as strong as others, but they are well-coached and schedule well.
So, my hypothesis (that Dave is free to bust) is this: Players from elite college baseball programs have an experience closer to major league level than players from non-elite programs. That doesn’t mean that you can’t have good players from non-elite schools or bad players masked by playing for elite schools (c.f. just about every pitcher Oklahoma has produced in the last ten years), but elite programs draw better players, are generally better coached (and have the resources to hire specialized trainers), and play stiffer competition. Thus, generally, if Pitcher A comes from an elite school, the chances that he’ll be ready for the majors sooner than Pitcher B from a non-elite school are quantifiably higher. (And again, YMMV, but generally here.)
Morrow went to Cal, which isn’t what I’d call an elite school, and played in the Pac-10, which is a competitive major conference. So, I’m not sure what to make of his arrival. Is he benefiting from pitching against USC, UCLA, Arizona State, and a Oregon State team that won the CWS? I would think so. But he did it pitching for Cal, which isn’t going to have the training and development that Stanford would have. So, who knows? Maybe this is all me killing time waiting for a process to complete.
Okay, Dave, let’s assume I’m completely full of crap and you’re absolutely right.
This just occured to me: Let’s look at a basic tenet behind the general stance on Morrow as starter-to-be.
Given this…
… and his 20 minor league innings… what gives you or anyone else any indication that Morrow is even capable of being a big league starter in the first place? Are we splitting hairs over something (Morrow as starter) that’s highly unlikely in general?
… and his 20 minor league innings… what gives you or anyone else any indication that Morrow is even capable of being a big league starter in the first place? Are we splitting hairs over something (Morrow as starter) that’s highly unlikely in general?
His velocity and movement show significant potential, which is really what teams are looking for when they draft a player. Just because Morrow isn’t ready to be a major league starter right now doesn’t mean he never will be.
He has potential to be a quality member of the rotation, but he won’t fulfill that potential without some more development. Casting that potential aside because you deem it to be unlikely is just a waste of a good arm.
So, my hypothesis (that Dave is free to bust) is this: Players from elite college baseball programs have an experience closer to major league level than players from non-elite programs.
The hypothesis is almost certainly true, though I’d bet that it has more to do with pre-selection than scheduling or coaching. Since college is a partial scholarship sport, only the elite schools are going to be heavily recruiting guys who are going to be primarily used out of the bullpen. Smaller schools will be using their 11.7 scholarships to lure starting pitchers and position players.
So, guys with power arms who project as college relievers aren’t going to be chased all that highly by smaller programs. They’re more likely to make their way to elite schools just due to the nature of the sport, and thus, they’re more likely to be drafted out of those elite schools.
Putting Morrow on the MLB roster makes about as much sense as making Rene Rivera the backup catcher made for the last two years.
The Ichiro story is humorous, but, in one aspect,is factually wrong. I was at that 2001 opener, and his rally-igniting drag bunt did not occur in the Ninth Inning. (If memory serves, it started a four run eighth inning rally for a 5-4 win. Kazman came in to get his first save in the Oakland ninth.) I hope that this year’s opener with Oakland is the beginning of something big like that year.
Sorry, should’ve been clearer with the point I was trying to make. the Twins started Liriano in the bullpen, then made him a starter, and then pulled a “Tommy Lasorda” and worked him into the ground — Yikes! Probably won’t happen to Morrow with the M’s, look at how they treated Felix last year. Though with Hargrove, you never know….
AP story: M’s announce starting rotation. King Felix, Washburn, Batista, Ramirez, Weaver the Lesser.
I read that a reason for this particular rotation was to break up the leftie-rightie arrangement; so that you don’t have two pitchers throwing from the same side in consecutive games.
This is nonsense.
With a 5-man rotation (or any odd number of starting pitchers), it’s inevitable that at some point–5th starter-1st starter = R-R in this case–you are going to have duplication.
Less, even, since Rivera didn’t have any potential to screw up.
The old M’s had a lot of pitchers that got rushed to the Majors.
First one that comes to mind is Billy Swift. Came up before he had learned to pitch, struggled for years before finally getting it together after being traded away in the Kevin Mitchell fiasco.
The difference with Swift though was that they didn’t put him in the bullpen, they made him a starter right away. Otherwise there might be some similarities with Morrow.
But the M’s long history is laden with pitchers that were rushed. Swift was just the first one I thought of.
First one that comes to mind is Billy Swift. Came up before he had learned to pitch, struggled for years before finally getting it together after being traded away in the Kevin Mitchell fiasco.
Swifty got 39 innings (7 starts) in the minors before his major league debut in 1985, then bounced back and forth between Seattle and Calgary in 1986. In all, he racked up 141 minor league innings in his career.
So yea, the M’s rushed Bill Swift to the majors. But what they’re attempting to do with Morrow is even more unprecedented.
I see your points, Dave. I can see this stunting Morrow’s development (if the chain of events locks him into MLB reliever status) as easily as I can see this being a positive learning experience for him.
Another thought (ain’t I just full of them today): Could this also be an opportunity to try a different approach to developing a pitcher? Think about how the Mariners went about in developing all those prospects who ran into arm trouble, Ryan Anderson, Gil Meche, et al. IIRC these pitchers started along as starters with full workloads in the minors and came up working that same heavy load, with developing, questionable mechanics and skills, with the possibility of developing poor habits that need correcting.
Could this also be an opportunity to experiment with developing the toolbox and skills, against top talent that will definitely punish your mistakes, before developing the stamina? Usually, pitchers go through this skill development in the minors while having to throw 90-120 pitches every five days, which can wear a pitcher out more than the workload would normally indicate while the physical overload can contribute to bad habits. Being a reliever can allow this education to be introduced and absorbed in smaller doses.
By no means do I consider any of this an ironclad possibility. It’s just a thought.
Given the overtly violent torque of Liriano’s mechanics on his shoulder and elbow, he certainly didn’t help his own chances of avoiding major injury. There’s certainly some concern with Felix, but his motion, for its flaws, is a bit more normalized.
The Felix-phobia of the media re: his injury potential has been somewhat amusing, as if Liriano’s problems in any way reflect Felix’s delivery flaws. They assume that because Liriano pitched himself into TJS, Felix is going to, too.
The media loves to take one data point and draw a line with it.
Could this also be an opportunity to try a different approach to developing a pitcher?
If this was part of an organizational shift towards another way of developing pitchers, and they had done a bunch of work to try to come up with a new plan to help keep their young arms healthier, I’d be jumping up and down with glee.
It’s not. This is Mike Hargrove seeing a guy throwing 96 MPH and saying “me like, me want”, and the front office not having the stones to tell him no. This isn’t about Brandon Morrow’s development, as Hargrove even explicitly told the media that the other day. This is about Hargrove believing that Morrow gives him a better chance to win games this year because he’s pitching well in exhibition games that don’t count. It’s the same reason Eric O’Flaherty might get a job over George Sherrill.
As much as I wish it was, this isn’t part of an organizational overhaul to handle pitchers better. It’s part of a manager’s desire to not get himself fired.
Yeah, pretty much, Dave- and I’m hoping Bavasi’s better instincts win out over HIS urge not to get fired and to promote minor leaguers aggressively, because those two factors have to be present as well.
There’s probably a lot of the organization that’s grasping at straw right now to stay afloat, after 3 last place finishes and public pronunciementos by El Jefe Lincoln.