Red hot televised spring training action!

DMZ · March 26, 2007 at 5:47 pm · Filed Under Game Threads 

Seattle @ Texas! Whee! 6:05!

Comments

128 Responses to “Red hot televised spring training action!”

  1. Mr. Egaas on March 26th, 2007 6:05 pm

    Morrow scheduled to go an inning per Neihaus. Get way excited.

    I’m secretly hoping he gets shelled so they don’t put him on the 25-man roster.

  2. okdan on March 26th, 2007 6:06 pm

    I’m secretly hoping he gets shelled so they don’t put him on the 25-man roster.

    What? That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve heard in a while…

  3. Mr. Egaas on March 26th, 2007 6:09 pm

    What? That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve heard in a while…

    Dumbest… short of the M’s actually considering carrying him? He needs to start in AA or so. Plain and simple. We need a horse over the next 6 years rather than bullpen arm this year.

  4. stoatboy on March 26th, 2007 6:18 pm

    I refuse to read anything at all into the fact that Ordonez is starting at 2B.

  5. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 6:25 pm

    That’s good. Because Jose Morban/Cody Ransom were starting in the infield this late in the season last year too. Ditto Mickey Lopez in years past.

  6. okdan on March 26th, 2007 6:26 pm

    I guess I don’t see how letting him learn to pitch in the bigs in, under pressure, keeps him from being a horse over the next 6 years. At the very least he should be starting in AAA, with a mid season callup. But why would you want him to get shelled?

  7. Dave on March 26th, 2007 6:27 pm

    Try reading the big long thread on why Morrow should start the year in Double-A.

  8. okdan on March 26th, 2007 6:27 pm

    Minus that second ‘in’…

  9. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 6:28 pm

    I kind of agree with it actually. It’s a TINSTAAPP thing. If he can come up now and be an above average reliever and give us innings, that better then him wasting innings in the minors. Because it would make me sick if he got injured and ended his career in the minors when he was major league ready. A conservative play, sure, but still defensible.

  10. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 6:29 pm

    Is it just me or does Miguel Batista work really slowly?

  11. okdan on March 26th, 2007 6:29 pm

    Read it last night, in fact, and disagree with the conclusion you came to.

  12. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 6:30 pm

    TINSTAAPP?

  13. jjb on March 26th, 2007 6:32 pm

    Re: #10

    But how slowly does he walk back to the dugout after innings? James Baldwin speed or something swifter?

  14. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 6:32 pm

    1st inning Grover?

  15. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 6:34 pm

    Maybe Morrow goes longer if Batista is done after taking that shot.

  16. kentroyals5 on March 26th, 2007 6:35 pm

    Grover needed to get tossed….especially that fastball down the middle that the umpire called a ball…its was as perfect a strike as you’ll ever see and he called it a ball to spite Grover…puts Batista in a bad spot to continue to throw pitches

  17. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 6:36 pm

    It didn’t affect the umpire, as that inside corner curveball was called a ball…

  18. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 6:37 pm
  19. Mariner Fan in CO Exile on March 26th, 2007 6:38 pm

    I suppose it’s too much to hope that the Extra Innings package has kicked in for this one..

    Just got back from a week at Spring Training. Trying to catch up. A good sampling altogether. Hate the autograph avoidance carts, damn them. Even Willie Ballgame zoomed by (not that I was eager to get him to sign anything) . . You need to post a cheaters guide to getting autographs (besides the obvious tip to stand next to a 4 year old kid with an oversized baseball cap and the guts to call out to players). Pretty cool moment when Kenji started to sign, stopped, ran back to his cart pretending to leave, then ran back to another part of the crowd to sign some more. He did this false departure act 3 times until he finally jumped in the cart for good, pushed the staff guy out of the way and drove himself, the driver, his handler and another player wildly toward the players parking lot or somewhere like he was in a car chase. Seems like he has a lot of fun.

  20. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 6:39 pm

    Jose Guillen > Jamie Wright

  21. Dave on March 26th, 2007 6:39 pm

    I kind of agree with it actually. It’s a TINSTAAPP thing. If he can come up now and be an above average reliever and give us innings, that better then him wasting innings in the minors.

    Where does this logic stop? Why not call up Tony Butler to take Jake Woods spot? Jeff Clement is better than Rene Rivera. Adam Jones is better than Willie Bloomquist.

    So, maybe we should have a Jones-Clement-LaHair-Navarro bench, and a bullpen of Morrow-Butler-Tillman-Kahn-O’Flaherty-Putz.

    Or, we could admit that the lack of player development is the reason this organization is in the crapper right now.

    Without being rude, people who support the Morrow promotion are generally doing so out of their own ignorance.

  22. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 6:44 pm

    I’ve counted 3 rocket line drives back to Bautista so far.

  23. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 6:51 pm

    Without being rude, people who support the Morrow promotion are generally doing so out of their own ignorance.

    Adding the qualifier doesn’t make it any more polite.

    Anyway, I look at position players totally differently than pitchers. Morrow is big league ready to be a reliever. No way Butler-Tillman-Kahn are. They NEED to be in the minors. But in a coinflip situation like Morrow, then bring him up to the majors.

  24. Dave on March 26th, 2007 6:53 pm

    You don’t know that Corco. If you don’t want the qualifier, fine – you don’t know enough to have a credible opinion on Brandon Morrow.

    You just don’t.

  25. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 6:53 pm

    You just…there’s no logical way to compare promoting Morrow to promoting Chris Tillman.

  26. Wishhiker on March 26th, 2007 6:54 pm

    If JJ is correct about being ready for opening day, There’s only 1 spot left for Morrow to squeeze in front of Huber, O’Flaherty and White if I remember correctly. If Putz is ready to go there shouldn’t be as much desire to bring Morrow along either. I predict the M’s don’t see him making the minimum until July or later.

  27. Dave on March 26th, 2007 6:54 pm

    I didn’t say there was – I was poking the obvious hole in your logic.

  28. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 6:55 pm

    That’s not a hole. And using an illogical argument to point out a perceived hole in logic is poor argument.

  29. hansk on March 26th, 2007 6:58 pm

    I know you guys hate Grover…what do you think about McLaren taking over as manager? Or do you want someone else fired?

    I’m thinking of the scenario that the M’s start off poorly, then midway through the season they fire Hargrove, demote the worst SP (can be anyone besides Hernandez really), and give the spot to Morrow who before that point had been dominating the minors. Then move forward- successfully i imagine- with those changes.

  30. joser on March 26th, 2007 6:59 pm

    Oh boy — first game I’ve followed and… Mariners are getting shelled, people are arguing with Dave about minor leaguers, Corcoran has more comments than anybody else… it’s like 2006 didn’t ever go away.

  31. Wishhiker on March 26th, 2007 7:00 pm

    As long as Mclaren swallows his tongue and supports Hargrove’s stupidity, it might work out that way.

  32. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:01 pm

    30: New change though! This is the first time you’ve ever seen Corcoran in an argument with Dave about minor leaguers. See, DMZ, I’m helping cut server bandwidth by consolidating resources.

  33. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:05 pm

    I put up a few thousand words with my argument, Corco. You writing TINSTAAP in a comment during a game thread, and then complaining that you’re not getting properly rebutted, is basically a joke.

    There are legitimate reasons for the Mariners to carry Morrow as a reliever. You just don’t happen to have any of them.

  34. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 7:07 pm

    I’m pretty sure it’s not worth asking, but what’s TINSTAAP?

  35. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:08 pm

    You’ve actually written 1,422 words on the subject, and I’ve read every single one of them. Your argument is not the only feasible point, for what you preach is not fact. Only God knows the truth. The rest of us can just sit back and ponder.

  36. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:09 pm

    34: See post 18

  37. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:10 pm

    It’s a lame, incorrect phrase that Baseball Prospectus used to tout all the time to try and sound superior. It’s short for There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect, and the idea behind it (since basically abandoned by everyone with any kind of reason) is that young pitcher attrition rate is so high that there is little tangible value in non-major league pitchers.

    It’s a terrible argument and one of the black marks on the sabermetric movement.

  38. CSG on March 26th, 2007 7:10 pm

    The Dave Sims era is upon us!

  39. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:11 pm

    Can you cite instances in which it has been abandoned, because this is the first I’ve seen of this.

  40. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:12 pm

    Your argument is not the only feasible point, for what you preach is not fact.

    Obviously, considering part of those 1,422 words were supportive of the idea, and I’ve written in many places (including this thread) that there are legitimate reasons for the Mariners to consider carrying Brandon Morrow.

    The problem is, your explanation for why you’re in favor of it is wrong. Even if you were supporting the best idea, your methodology still sucks. It’d be like voting for Felix to be the opening day starter because he has the coolest hair.

  41. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:12 pm

    If you want to educate yourself on the past few years of baseball research, Corco, knock yourself out. Otherwise, take my word for it.

  42. kentroyals5 on March 26th, 2007 7:13 pm

    trade Sexson…keep Broussard! haha

  43. CSG on March 26th, 2007 7:13 pm

    As so frequently happens…

  44. okdan on March 26th, 2007 7:14 pm

    I would argue that the chance to familiarize himself with real mlb hitters is a better preparation for the starting rotation in 2008 and beyond, than pitching to AA hitters all year.

    Morrow knows how to be a starter, he’s done that. Your post kept implying that he doesn’t know how to be a starter. That’s silly. Just because you personally haven’t seen him start a meaningful game, doesn’t mean others haven’t. He’s got to learn to pitch in the bigs at some point, why not in the pen rather than in the rotation?

  45. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:14 pm

    If I constantly arrive at correct conclusions, however, is my methodology incorrect?

  46. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:18 pm

    Which is to say: Maybe Felix should be starting because he has the coolest hair. Maybe his success is rooted in his cool hair. If he had different hair, maybe he wouldn’t be a good pitcher.

  47. kentroyals5 on March 26th, 2007 7:21 pm

    really? are we really talking about this? not to be offensive (yeah qualifier!), but this conversation is dumb.

  48. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:21 pm

    And shockingly, I’m now done trying to help Corco. Good luck, world.

    I would argue that the chance to familiarize himself with real mlb hitters is a better preparation for the starting rotation in 2008 and beyond, than pitching to AA hitters all year.

    Do you have any evidence of this being true?

    Morrow knows how to be a starter, he’s done that.

    He made 24 college starts over 3 years. He’s never gone more than 3 innings as a professional. Do you think he knows how to adjust to seeing good hitters a second and third time through the line-up? Do you think he knows how to pace himself when there aren’t designated outs in the 7-8-9 spots in the line-up? Do you think he knows how to adjust to pitching every five days, keeping himself in shape to be able to sustain a 100 pitch workload with four days of rest?

    If so, why do you believe that he knows how to do these things, when he’s never had to do them?

    He’s got to learn to pitch in the bigs at some point, why not in the pen rather than in the rotation?

    Because pitching in relief is totally different than pitching as a starter. You’re not learning the same things.

  49. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:22 pm

    47: This is why I generally avoid baseball related topics. I usually just keep to myself and talk about highways in the state of Washington.

  50. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:23 pm

    Trying to help and scrutinizing are two completely different things. You are a master of the words, Mr. Dave.

  51. kentroyals5 on March 26th, 2007 7:25 pm

    49: Well, whatever floats your boat…or gets your car from point A to point B

  52. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:26 pm

    I can get my car from any variable point A to any variable point B in these United States and Canada more efficiently then anyone you’ve ever met. Without using a driving directions application.

  53. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:27 pm

    Do you tell the professors at school to stop scrutinizing your papers when you turn them on and they keep putting those annoying red marks on them?

    If you’re wrong about something here, we’re probably going to point it out. On this issue, you’re wrong. Sorry.

  54. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:27 pm

    They are…shall we say…more pleasant in their constructive criticism.

  55. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:28 pm

    They haven’t had to deal with you for as long as we have. And they’re getting paid to be pleasant towards you.

  56. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:29 pm

    Plus methodology is not fact, just opinion. Methodology is always changing. 3 years ago it was TINSTAAPP, now it’s whatever you’re using, and maybe in 5 years it will be based on how cool a pitchers hair is. There’s no right answer.

  57. seattlesundevil on March 26th, 2007 7:30 pm

    Reason #1 I voted for USS Mariner against LL? Showdowns between Dave and Corco – classic!

  58. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:30 pm

    57: I don’t ever remember having a showdown with Dave before. And I’m getting my ass kicked. So don’t look forward to this in the future.

  59. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:30 pm

    Baseball is all relative! Felix isn’t really better than Jeff Weaver! The Mariners didn’t really finish in last place! Weeeee!

    This isn’t philosophy class. There are right answers.

  60. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:31 pm

    Baseball is philosophical. Yogi Berra.

  61. Dave on March 26th, 2007 7:32 pm

    You’re wrong. David Cameron.

  62. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:32 pm

    So, how bout them Yankees?

  63. kentroyals5 on March 26th, 2007 7:33 pm

    Felix ever pitch like an ace in the world series? So, based on hard evidence, Jeff Weaver is better than King Felix…Demote him to Prince!

  64. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 7:34 pm

    I don’t think Corcoran knows what methodology means.

  65. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:36 pm

    Methodology- as defined by the David J Corcoran Glossary of Words People Don’t Think he Knows

    The process by which a study is carried out and which conclusions are drawn. Generally includes stock issues of some kind

  66. DKJ on March 26th, 2007 7:44 pm

    So how does the assembled multitude feel about Sims?

    Certainly sounds like a sports guy. What do think of his baseball?

    I deal on the theatrical level only. He is certainly playing a baseball announcer well. I like him better than the bouncing vocalizations of the Rizzs, and better than the laconic, though undeniably expert, Mr. Blowers.

  67. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 7:47 pm

    65- a textbook definition, but I’d like to see you apply it to why you’re wrong and Dave’s right.

  68. Jared on March 26th, 2007 7:49 pm

    Broussard! Wooo!

  69. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:50 pm

    You won’t find “Generally includes stock issues of some kind” in a textbook.

    Methodology is a noun if I am not mistaken. (99.9% sure here)

    Dave contends that my methodology is incorrect, which is to s…

    OK, so I’ve picked out the wrong stock issues and my argument is not coherent.

    You win, Dave.

  70. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 7:50 pm

    USSM 1
    Corco 1

  71. kentroyals5 on March 26th, 2007 7:52 pm

    Broussard’s trade value is as high as it can be now…way to go Ben!

  72. argh on March 26th, 2007 7:55 pm

    I’m curious to hear discussion about any theory as to why Gookie Dawkin has gotten so much playing time in the last 10 days.

  73. PositivePaul on March 26th, 2007 7:56 pm

    Speaking of Broussard – any thoughts on his LF defense? Looks like he’s not totally embarassing himself, at least. Whose defense is better in LF – Raul’s or Broussard’s???

  74. PositivePaul on March 26th, 2007 7:57 pm

    Aaahhh doesn’t McLaren look soooo good sitting in the dugout as the manager.

  75. DanO on March 26th, 2007 7:59 pm

    72–I dunno; does he have cool hair?

  76. okdan on March 26th, 2007 8:05 pm

    As far as I can tell, the collective reasoning boils down to this: Let Morrow start the year in AA/AAA/your choice. Let him start for half the season, and if he’s making ground chuck out of those “professional lineups” then we’ll call him up for the second half. So you’re saying that those ~18 starts will magincally turn him into the all knowing pinnacle of starting rotationalism that must be achieved before pitching to a major league hitter? I’ll bet you if he does start those 18 games, when he gets called up he’ll still be throwing the same 2 pitches for strikes.

    Do you have any evidence of this being true?

    Barry Zito had 18 starts in AAA before getting the call. I’d say he did pretty well.

    There are just as many easy-outs in a AA lineup as in a top level NCAA lineup. There are guys in both lineups who are going to have zero chance against Morrow.

    Do you think he knows how to adjust to pitching every five days, keeping himself in shape to be able to sustain a 100 pitch workload with four days of rest?

    If so, why do you believe that he knows how to do these things, when he’s never had to do them?

    Yes I do. Why? because he has done just that. Why do we throw his college numbers out the window? They are completely relevant.

    Because pitching in relief is totally different than pitching as a starter. You’re not learning the same things.

    Yes you are, you most certainly are. You’re learning how to get hitters out. The rules don’t suddenly change when you pitch in the 8th versus the 3rd. Three strikes you’re out.

    This spring has shown us just how butter-smooth his mechanics are, and how balanced his motion is. And there is no logical reason to believe his straightforward approach will somehow be tainted by a stint in the pen. I would reference Johan Santana to make this point.

  77. Wishhiker on March 26th, 2007 8:05 pm

    74- as if it’s the first time we’ve seen it?

  78. PositivePaul on March 26th, 2007 8:14 pm

    He is mortal. Yessss.

    Finally, he’s pitching to guys with jersey numbers lower than 88. Well, except the dude at the plate…

  79. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 8:15 pm

    Morrow about to get shelled, should he use his bullpen-ace caliber necessary strikout prowess?

  80. PositivePaul on March 26th, 2007 8:16 pm

    Batista wasn’t getting that location called as a strike.

  81. Dave on March 26th, 2007 8:17 pm

    So you’re saying that those ~18 starts will magincally turn him into the all knowing pinnacle of starting rotationalism that must be achieved before pitching to a major league hitter?

    No, I’m saying those starts will turn him into a better pitcher than he is today.

    Barry Zito had 18 starts in AAA before getting the call. I’d say he did pretty well.

    Barry Zito also had 13 starts in high-A, Double-A, and Triple-A the year before. He made 29 minor league starts before he made his major league debut. I’m asking for Morrow to make at least 10. How is that unreasonable?

    There are just as many easy-outs in a AA lineup as in a top level NCAA lineup. There are guys in both lineups who are going to have zero chance against Morrow.

    This is demonstrably wrong. The Pac-10 is a lower level of competition than the Northwest League. Every college conference in the country is a lower level of competition than every full-season league in professional baseball. You’re vastly overestimating the ability of college hitters.

    Yes I do. Why? because he has done just that. Why do we throw his college numbers out the window? They are completely relevant.

    No, he hasn’t. He’s never started on 4 days rest. Colleges give their pitchers a week between starts. He’s never had to do any of the things I listed.

    Yes you are, you most certainly are. You’re learning how to get hitters out. The rules don’t suddenly change when you pitch in the 8th versus the 3rd. Three strikes you’re out.

    The approach changes. I’m surprised you don’t realize that.

    This spring has shown us just how butter-smooth his mechanics are, and how balanced his motion is. And there is no logical reason to believe his straightforward approach will somehow be tainted by a stint in the pen. I would reference Johan Santana to make this point.

    Johan Santana made 49 starts in the minors and threw 340 innings before his major league debut. And his rookie year, he posted an ERA of 6.49.

  82. seattlesundevil on March 26th, 2007 8:19 pm

    How is Morrow lookin? I am at work… In Arizona… So needless to say I am not up to date on his stuff tonight.

  83. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 8:24 pm

    He’s throwing hard, got a couple of grounders and one flyout. He struggled a bit with his control but in a tight strike zone.

  84. seattlesundevil on March 26th, 2007 8:25 pm

    Thanks alot!

  85. okdan on March 26th, 2007 8:29 pm

    No, I’m saying those starts will turn him into a better pitcher than he is today.

    And so will a half-season’s worth of relief appearances… What is the point here? Every single pitch makes him a better pitcher.

    The Pac 10 also uses metal bats, which the Northwest League does not. I would argue that that gives those hitters a better chance against Morrow’s 97mph fastball, making it actually more difficult that High A or AA ball. Being able to turn on the ball quicker makes it much easier to be able to cheat your way to a single, against a pitch that would normally twist you into the ground.

    Never said that 18 starts in the minors was unreasonable. It’s very reasonable. So reasonable that it’s conservative, just what the M’s front office is used to. Putting Morrow in the pen to start the season is a risk, a risk that could greatly help this team.

    You’re right that there is a difference in the approach. You claimed starting and relieving are “totally different”, and they’re not. And last time I checked, Morrow had started a baseball game before, and most likely understands how one might approach such a situation.

    My point about Santana was that a stint in the pen would not ruin his potential for pitching in the rotation.

    So what, Santana posted a 6.49 ERA. How about Felix last year? Is Felix a 4.52 ERA pitcher? Nope. How would he have done if he spent 2005 in the pen?

  86. PositivePaul on March 26th, 2007 8:31 pm

    To add to that — yeah, he struggled. First two hitters hit the ball to LF, practically in the same spot. Got a flyout to move the runners over, then walked another batter. Didn’t seem phased at all — got a grounder to Chen, who couldn’t turn the double play, but threw out the runner at first. Got some nice strikes right at the knees (that same location was called a ball for Batista, though), and then got the last out on a grounder to third.

    O’Flaherty, OTOH, is getting shelled. Of course, the double would’ve probably been an out, had Morse not been the RF’er…

  87. msb on March 26th, 2007 8:34 pm

    so is the moral of today don’t throw strikes to the Rangers?

  88. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 8:36 pm

    Okdan, your silly little hypotheses about college hitters versus low level minor leaguers are just that. Please stop making a fool of yourself.

  89. Rain Delay on March 26th, 2007 8:37 pm

    I’m beginning to wonder if Rivera knows what that piece of dead cow on his left hand is.

  90. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 8:37 pm

    I can’t help but think that Johan Garpenlov isn’t a real person.

  91. Faceplant on March 26th, 2007 8:38 pm

    Oh, come on Okdan. Relievers have totally different approaches than starters. This is just getting ridiculous.

    My point about Santana was that a stint in the pen would not ruin his potential for pitching in the rotation.

    The diffence, of course, being that Morrow would be starting his stint in the pen with 8 professional appearances under his belt, while Johan Santana started his with 49 starts under his belt. Either you amazingly can’t see the diffence between the two situations, or you are just trying to be disengenous.

    And calling a pitcher up after 18 starts is conservative? Uh… Okay.

  92. Faceplant on March 26th, 2007 8:39 pm

    Whoops sorry about the block quotes. I accidentally quoted myself. I don’t post very often so I’m not used to using them.

  93. Dave on March 26th, 2007 8:39 pm

    And so will a half-season’s worth of relief appearances… What is the point here? Every single pitch makes him a better pitcher.

    Do you really not understand the vastly different ways relievers and starters pitch? Teaching Morrow to go balls to the wall for 15 pitches isn’t going to help him learn how to be a starting pitcher. It may even be counterproductive.

    The Pac 10 also uses metal bats, which the Northwest League does not. I would argue that that gives those hitters a better chance against Morrow’s 97mph fastball, making it actually more difficult that High A or AA ball. Being able to turn on the ball quicker makes it much easier to be able to cheat your way to a single, against a pitch that would normally twist you into the ground.

    Quite simply, you’re wrong. We have years and years and years of evidence that show that the level of competition in full season ball is higher than in college, even after adjusting for metal bats.

    Never said that 18 starts in the minors was unreasonable. It’s very reasonable. So reasonable that it’s conservative, just what the M’s front office is used to. Putting Morrow in the pen to start the season is a risk, a risk that could greatly help this team.

    You do realize that you’re calling a strategy conservative that there’s literally almost no historical precedent for and that no other organization in baseball would even consider? And you’re calling the Mariners organization conservative, when they’re widely accepted as the most aggressive front office in baseball in promoting players. Do you think sending Matt Tuiasasopo to Double-A ball last year was conservative? Are you okay with how that worked out?

    Putting Morrow in the majors right out of spring training will be one of the most aggressive promotions of a draft pick in modern baseball history. The Tigers aren’t doing this to Andrew Miller, and the Giants aren’t doing this to Tim Lincecum. It’s an historically unique challenge to a guy that is by no accounts historically unique.

    You’re right that there is a difference in the approach. You claimed starting and relieving are “totally different”, and they’re not. And last time I checked, Morrow had started a baseball game before, and most likely understands how one might approach such a situation.

    The assumption that he learned enough in 24 college starts to be prepared to get major league hitters out is without any support or historical evidence.

    You’re claiming that Brandon Morrow “likely understands” things that you have no possible way of knowing, because he’s never been in situations that would demonstrate those abilities. In the absense of evidence, assuming the positive is a foolish idea.

  94. mariners23 on March 26th, 2007 8:47 pm

    I dont think it would be such a bad idea to let Morrow work out most of the season in the Minors, then when Weaver is gone after this year hey u got yourself a young new starter!

  95. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 8:50 pm

    w00t

  96. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 8:54 pm

    Also, what idiot at MLB.com decided this was a good idea?

  97. argh on March 26th, 2007 8:56 pm

    USSM has pitched the availability of relatively cheap and abundent relievers for a long time. On the other hand, decent starting pitchers are as rare as hen’s teeth, and cost considerably more if purchased on the open market. Assuming all this to be true it would seem like a no brainer to conserve starter possibilities and buy whatever you need for relief. On that basis any consideration of using Morrow in the pen smacks of naked job preservation desperation by Hargrove and company.

  98. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 8:59 pm

    We have 42 pitchers on our 40 man roster.

  99. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 8:59 pm

    Jeff Weaver helped his brother get minor league experience by blocking him, and when it turned out he totally sucked, Jared got the call. We should take the Jeff Weaver approach with Brandon Morrow (granted Jared shouldn’t have been demoted)

  100. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 9:22 pm

    Nobody else comment. We’re stuck right on 99 comments, which is a cool number. It looks good on the front page.

  101. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 9:22 pm

    Damn.

  102. gwangung on March 26th, 2007 9:33 pm

    USSM has pitched the availability of relatively cheap and abundent relievers for a long time. On the other hand, decent starting pitchers are as rare as hen’s teeth, and cost considerably more if purchased on the open market. Assuming all this to be true it would seem like a no brainer to conserve starter possibilities and buy whatever you need for relief.

    There are a lot of no-brains out on the Internet. I think we’ve proved that to anyone’s satisfiaction….

  103. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 9:33 pm

    I accuse Johan Garpenlov of being DMZ.

  104. Russ on March 26th, 2007 9:35 pm

    They haven’t had to deal with you for as long as we have. And they’re getting paid to be pleasant towards you.

    This is without a doubt one of the funniest, truest statements I’ve read in long time. This one comment makes the subscription worth it.

  105. DMZ on March 26th, 2007 9:41 pm

    I accuse Corco of being Corco.

    The verdict? Guilty.

    Penalty? Being Corco.

  106. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 9:43 pm

    105: Per comment 32, I’m helping conserve bandwidth.

  107. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 9:44 pm

    And I didn’t get a fair trial. It was speedy, though.

  108. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 9:53 pm

    105: LOLzers

  109. JI on March 26th, 2007 10:25 pm

    Worst. thread. ever.

  110. Johan Garpenlov on March 26th, 2007 10:36 pm

    Threads appear on forums. This is a blog post with comments.

  111. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 10:39 pm

    110: But good sir, these are referred to as “Game Threads”

    I refer you to comment #33. Also, you could look for threads tagged “Game Threads,” much as this one.

    Johan, you are a crazy cat.

  112. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 10:40 pm

    Actually, I have this hypothesis. Johan is not DMZ. It’s Coach Owens in disguise! Only Coach using his brain.

  113. david h on March 26th, 2007 10:44 pm

    Dave – while I agree with your 1400+ word argument for not carrying Morrow in the bigs right out of spring and think you wrote persuasivly enough to convince most rational people, your responses to arguments in this thread have mostly been as far off base as the arguments you are refuting:

    I would argue that the chance to familiarize himself with real mlb hitters is a better preparation for the starting rotation in 2008 and beyond, than pitching to AA hitters all year.

    Do you have any evidence of this being true?
    and
    This isn’t philosophy class. There are right answers.

    The common call here at USSM for evidence supporting an argument – this makes for a much better discussion, and the evidence you use normally makes it nearly impossible to disagree, but in this instance you haven’t put forth any evidence in support of your argument either. 1400+ words, and yet no evidence supporting the need to learn to start in the minors, which makes it seem odd to demand it here. You cite some thoroughly researched info regarding tangential issues like quality of competition, but nothing supporting the main thrust of your argument – that Morrow would be a better starter in the future if he learned to start in the minors. That is presented only as a philosophical/theoretical argument, and it seems appropriate for people to disagree for reasons not founded on a wealth of data. Certainly, you have undermined the premise of many of these arguments (like college v. professional competition, Zito’s minor league starts), but dismissing others simply because they lack statistical support doesn’t make sense here.

    Also, using the slippery slope argument regarding Corco’s TINSTAAPP point doesn’t really poke a hole in his argument. Since, as you acknowledge, Morrow is different than Tillman et al, there really isn’t a slope, just a bunch of steps, and your counter-argument assumes no one can recognize where one step ends and the other begins. Further, your original post is subject to the same criticism – you fear Morrow’s potential success as a reliever could lead the club to view him only as a reliever, but that fear would still exist with a mid-season call-up to the M’s pen – a plan you at least tolerate if not endorse.

    Finally, if random dude says “X is ready for the Majors,” and you say, “no he isn’t,” I think most people here trust your scouting/statistics ability to side with your opinion without you telling random dude he is ignorant and cannot possibly have a credible opinion. And in comment 24 you seem to suggest Corco doesn’t know Morrow is ready to pitch in the majors, but you said that he is “likely” to be an effective major league pitcher in your original article and implied that you think the M’s will be better this year with Morrow in the pen – Corco could be just trusting your opinion on Morrow’s readiness.

    And, in conclusion, you are wrong Corco. The M’s are stuck with Washburn, Batista, and Ramirez in ’08 – we absolutely need Morrow as quality starter.

  114. david h on March 26th, 2007 10:44 pm

    Crap. I even used the quicktags. What the hell went wrong???

  115. David J. Corcoran I on March 26th, 2007 10:49 pm

    Well, you hit the nail on the head anyway.

  116. david h on March 26th, 2007 10:52 pm

    thanks for the formatting touch up.

  117. Dave on March 26th, 2007 10:52 pm

    You had a couple open tags. I fixed them as best as I could, anyways.

    And yes, I’m well aware of the logical fallacies in my discussion with Corco. If I was talking to someone else, I’d have approached it differently. But its Corco, so he gets his own special blend of discussion.

  118. david h on March 26th, 2007 11:00 pm

    Makes perfect sense.

  119. okdan on March 26th, 2007 11:38 pm

    Not that I really expected anything different, but there’s no need to get ultra-defensive when someone questions the conclusions you draw, Dave. I’m just trying to have a discussion on a topic, that’s all.

  120. _David_ on March 26th, 2007 11:48 pm

    103 + 110 = weird.

  121. bongo on March 26th, 2007 11:50 pm

    BTW, Soriano is not the only ex-Mariner making an impression on the Atlanta Braves. Looks like TJ Bohn has a shot at making the team as a 4th or 5th outfielder. Anyone up for a guess as to how many players on last year’s 40-man roster will end up on the 25 man roster of another club?

  122. okdan on March 27th, 2007 12:13 am

    bongo, Where’d you find that info on Soriano? I’ve been casually keeping an eye out for any news lately, but haven’t had too much luck…

  123. Rain Delay on March 27th, 2007 6:30 am

    BTW, Soriano is not the only ex-Mariner making an impression on the Atlanta Braves. Looks like TJ Bohn has a shot at making the team as a 4th or 5th outfielder. Anyone up for a guess as to how many players on last year’s 40-man roster will end up on the 25 man roster of another club?

    Bohn has no hope of making the Braves roster. He was sent down already to Triple A Richmond. They sent him down over the weekend.

  124. Dave on March 27th, 2007 7:13 am

    Not that I really expected anything different, but there’s no need to get ultra-defensive when someone questions the conclusions you draw, Dave. I’m just trying to have a discussion on a topic, that’s all.

    We had a discussion on the topic. If you don’t like the way that I pointed out the inaccuracies in your beliefs, sorry.

  125. Oly Rainiers Fan on March 27th, 2007 7:15 am

    C’mon, new topic for Bill the Beerman? (That photo with the P-I article had beer being sold at Sonics games in 1976 for $1.25. What’s the inflation rate come out to?)

    As to Morrow, count me as firmly against going to the big-league club. I’d hate to see that mentality start ruling baseball, that college is some sort of equivalent. It’s not. Same game, but played with different equipment and under completely different circumstances. Is it worth it starting his clock early? Aren’t relievers a dime a dozen?

    As to ‘too quick promotions’, who read what Churchill had over on Prospect Insider, buried in the Jeff Clement as #2 prospect article? This little tidbit, equally applicable to pitchers as to position players:

    “It’s irresponsible to do what they (Mariners) did last year,” said a rival front office member. “They rushed their shortstop (Asdrubal Cabrera) before trading him, they rushed both catchers (Johnson, Clement) and they pushed Tui (Matt Tuiassosopo) far too quickly. They should know better, and I bet they do.

    “It really seems like they promoted those kids to make something that wasn’t there naturally. You can’t create value in your prospects that way, it’s going to catch up to them at some point, and they went o-fer with all of them. It’s not only counterproductive, it’s inexcusable and probably cost themselves and their players career time, or possible a career at all.

    “Clement probably was effected the most, since he had the most to lose. I’m telling you, if he’s handled properly, he’s still a big-time prospect and I’m really excited for his future.”

  126. em on March 27th, 2007 7:57 am

    Development is real. Morrow is talented, but he hasn’t been conditioned for a particular role at the ML level. The ability to leverage talent over a full pro season requires mental and physical conditioning, regardless of the talent level.

    Learning to be effective without going 100% on every pitch is not easy to do. Learning how and when to turn it up to 100% takes time.

    No, I didn’t learn this in pro ball, but I did learn it as a starting pitcher at the Division I and summer league level. I’ve competed against a lot of minor league and division I hitters, and I can tell you that seasoning makes all the difference. Experience trumps talent over the long haul, every time. Seasoning allows you to mentally engage every situation.

    Development is real.

  127. msb on March 27th, 2007 8:35 am

    for what it’s worth, McGrath has a column on Morrow today, with some quotes from Bavasi, who isn’t tipping his hand.

  128. PositivePaul on March 27th, 2007 9:31 am

    According to Gameday, Morrow threw 9 pitches to 6 batters. All but Laird, who walked on 4 pitches, hit his first pitch. But, wait, that doesn’t seem right. I remember him throwing two strikes at the knees of the last batter he faced, so never mind that.

    What I remember from watching him pitch was that he didn’t really seem to struggle with his poise and command too much. He seemed still under control on the mound out there, and didn’t look like he freaked out under the pressure.

    I’m still convinced that it’d be better for him to spend time in the minors to get prepped for the rotation. But he does seem to me to be ready to handle major league hitters.

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