Hargrove extension rumors
Geoff Baker writes in the Times blog:
I actually did hear the other night, from an assistant in another team’s front office, that Hargrove had quietly been given an extension for 2008 behind the scenes. Such an extension, I’m told — and nothing has been confirmed to me — would not preclude him from being fired this year. In other words, the team would eat the money. Again, just to repeat, this is just the word going around. Do not treat it as gospel. The point of me bringing it up now, rather than before, is that even if true, it would not impact the tenuous state of Hargrove’s job security.
With nothing announced, I’m inclined to think it’s close but in-progress instead of a done deal: if the team’s going to spend money like that, they’re likely going to do it in public because they think it’ll help answer questions about his job security – paying $250k or $500k or whatever it turns out to be to try and stop the speculation.
But, as Baker notes, that extension’s not going to end the speculation. They gave Melvin an extension and fired him under similar circumstances, as we all know.
Or, to recap:
1) Melvin’s been put on the hot seat by comments from ownership attempting to
2) Seeing continued speculation that Melvin is on the hotseat, the team attempts to end speculation by giving him an extension
3) Extension fails to end speculation
They might as well just put money in a big pile and set it on fire. It’d be prettier to watch than this last week’s games.
nothing hes done makes him deserve an extension
[ot]
Sorry for the typos, I shouldn’t post while angry.
He’s done nothing to warrant an extension. They put him on hot seat, which would indicate to me they weren’t exactly happy with his performance last year.
So why, after a 5-9 start, would they feel that they should guarantee him more money? I know its just to end speculation, but it is dumb dumb dumb.
The problems don’t end with Bavasi and Hargrove. What is more frustrating, than even this team has been the last couple of years, is the same people who would extend Hargrove would probably be the ones that will be in charge of replacing Bavasi and Grover in the off-season if they decide to.
What an extension says is that the problem with Hargrove is that vocal critics like those on USSM are making it hard for him to do his job. Is there any basis for thinking this is so? Did Lincoln walk in in Hargrove reading USSM in his office and weeping like a little girl?
Idiots.
Wasn’t the reason why they KEPT Hargrove last year was because they didn’t want to pay money for a manager who wasn’t managing?
Wouldn’t the money be better spent if they just supported the people keeping fans interested in Mariner’s baseball, such as maybe M’s blogers?
And here I was thinking that the only positive to this horrible streak was that they might just can Grover.
It’s like this organization hates me.
How fitting. . .
What if they took that money and hired a new manager?
And what is it with this team and wasting money? 8 million for Jeff Weaver? A contract extension for a manager who everybody’s counting on being fired before long?
“And now, we turn to George with the sports. George, what do you have for us?”
“Thanks, Diane. In a shocker, the Seattle Mariners today made a bold move to end speculation as to the futures of star centerfielder Ichiro Suzuki and manager Mike Hargrove, whose job has long been regarded as in jeopardy. The Mariners have announced that Hargrove will be demoted to bench coach, and extended through 2008, which Ichiro will be traded to Philadelphia for Aaron Rowand and Charlie Manuel, who will assume the manager’s job on Monday. Back to you, Diane.”
“2008, which Ichiro” really ought to be “2008, while Ichiro.” Oopsie-daisies.
How appropriate is this that Bill Bavasi’s last front office move as Mariners GM will be to waste money on a contract extension that will never come to light.
Let’s hope this firing happens very soon.
Basically, for every day the Mariners delay, it makes resigning Ichiro much less likely. I just don’t see this team turning around under Hargrove, so if they keep Hargrove on, they can kiss Ichiro goodby.
[ot]
Y’know, I’m starting to feel a little bit sad for the M’s front office. I mean, think about it from their perspective. Every move you make is publicly analyzed by people who are smarter than you are and better suited to do your job than you are. That can’t be a happy place to be.
To sum up, 6-game losing streak, Hargrove NOT fired, Ichiro NOT signed, Morrow NOT getting any quality learning experiences, Snelling NOT on the roster, Bloomquist NOT riding the pine, and our best-hope prospects still 2-3 years away in A-ball in Wisconsin. See? I HAVE been paying attention.
Now I suggest we all retire to my nifty new stasis chamber, avoid the next years of complete misery, and re-emerge untouched by the fickle hand of time or the trauma of watching 2 more last-place finishes, and see what emerges from the ashes. But hurry, my stasis chamber only has 5 seats left, so book early.
15 – My guess is that Hargrove believed that by taking Weaver out early, he would be sending a message of some kind to the other starters (not named Felix) that this performance would not be tolerated…
I have a back-up team that I’m rooting for…
This team likes to play April Fools jokes on us all month. Don’t they know it’s only okay to do that on the 1st of the month?
In quotes after the game, Hargrove basically said he thought Weaver was not looking good (true), and that he didn’t want to fall in a hole early. Obviously Weaver sucks, but the bullpen is not supposed to be a replacement for the rotation, and didn’t do any better really than Weaver would have. It seems likely that hes on his way out–if hes so bad that you can’t leave him in for more than three innings, he shouldn’t be on the team anyway.
As for the bullpen, with Felix out, when do they get to rest? What an absurd move.
What a pointless message:
Hargrove: “Hey rotation, if you keep pitching like crap, you get a REAL short leash. Shape up or sit down.”
HO-RAM: “But Mike, if the starting pitchers don’t pitch, then who will?”
Bloomquist: “I get to pitch.”
Hargrove: “No you don’t, Willie.”
Batista: “How are supposed to pitch better when were worried about being pulled after loading the bases in the second?”
Bloomquist: “BUT YOU SAID I COULD BE THE PITCHER!!!”
Hargrove: “I know what I said. We’ll talk about that later. Finish your carrots.”
I am flabbergasted as to how they would even justify giving Hargrove an extension at this point, or any other for that matter.
An extension says “this guy is better than anyone else who might be available”. Not “this guy isn’t qualified to manage a little league team”.
Churchil over at Prospect Insider was reporting this a couple of weeks ago.
I thought it was worth noting that Baker’s heard it from inside baseball sources and it makes me want to throw up.
Thinking back to the snowed out series in Cleveland… If the weather had been good, the M’s would have lost at least 3 of those 4 games. Add in the game that was rained out in Boston, and this team should have been around 6-13 by now, instead of 5-9.
And they want to extend Hargrove?
I got tickets to one of the games in the last homestand, the season ticket holder didn’t want them and gave them to us. They were in the first deck (field), the sort of seat that I would never have paid for (I’m a cheap seats kind of fan, especially if someone like Ramirez is pitching and the game will be over by the 3rd inning). Who pays $38 a ticket to see this team play? Not only that, but some people pay $55 for a ticket. Some people have too much money, IMO.
I would rather watch a team full of young unproven players and hope some will blossom, rather than a team full of experienced players proven to be horrible. It will be sad to see Ichiro go, but they should take this opportunity to completely rebuild the team. Felix / Putz / Lopez / Yuni + Johjima / Beltre is not a bad core of players to build a team around. Even if the team does not perform well, at least most fans would rather watch a bunch of young players mature than a bunch of old players decay.
Get rid of Hargrove, trade Ichiro / Sexson for some good pitching prospects, and start rebuilding. I do not think it is too early to judge how good this team will be, it is pretty obvious this team cannot contend this season, and the earlier they realize that the better chances they will have rebuilding.
[I deleted this already!]
back on track, I also thought Baker’s notes on possible GM replacmeents were interesting …
I think the whole idea of Willie Ballgame coming in to pitch is just such a capper to the whole week, we couldn’t resist.
I happily spent the last inning or two if the game thinking instead about how many more losses might tip the balance.
Everything about the Mariners right now makes me want to throw up.
OK, so this comment doesn’t exactly add light to the glowing firmament of discussion. Just more volume to the barfwagon.
#24 – Sweet Lou’s record right now is 7 and 11, should the Cubs be firing him? I think there’s compelling arguments to be made regarding the termination of Hargrove’s tenure, but wins and losses isn’t one of them.
#30 – we’re talking about a significant body of craptastic work by Hargrove, not limited to just his Seattle tenure. This is like groundhog day for his Baltimore tenure.
He’s been horrible since the Indians fired him, and was probably just as bad even then, merely masked by an incredibly talented club. Who knows how many WS rings they may have had with an average manager.
Lou (while sharing many of Hargrove’s old school tendencies) has only been in Chicago 5 minutes, and he is usually pretty good at getting the most out of hitters.
The Cubs comment is interesting, as the M’s have become the AL version of the Cubs: a high-revenue team that, in recent years, seems fundamentally unable to use that revenue to win games. The Cubs spent a lot of money in the off-season, but so far they seem to be the same old Cubs. (I’m from Illinois, and moved as an adult to the Seattle area; I obviously have very bad baseball karma. At least I got to watch the Cards when I was in graduate school in St. Louis.)
Girardi + Antonetti
The sooner, the better.
#33: Not too bad of an idea. But I think a John Mclaren/Brian Cashman combination is more likely (provided George Steinbrenner jumps off the deep end this October).
I don’t think Cashman will be available, nor do I think he would take the Mariners job if he was. McLaren is the safe choice and would be the most comfortable one for M’s ownership, both of which in themselves should be enough to disqualify him. (I grant that makes it more likely, as you said).
I really don’t have a strong opinion about GMs, because quite frankly I don’t think I’m qualified to evaluate any of the candidates, so I’m blatantly bandwagoning on Antonetti because Dave’s arguments late last year persuaded me.
Giardi is available and motivated; his dream job is in Chicago, but it’s not open. He’s arguably the most talented manager currently without a job (how often is a Manager of the Year unemployed the following season?) He has demonstrated he can win without vetrans or a big budget. If the M’s clean house then you want someone who can work with youngsters and get them winning sooner rather than later, and that’s exactly what he did last year (on a $15M budget). And he is out of work precisely because he was willing to butt heads with ownership when he thought it necessary, and I think that’s going to be necessary with the M’s too.
While I don’t consider ‘Butting Heads With Ownership’ a truly endearing quality to have as MLB Manager; telling your employers a differing opinion to what the best course of action is, in a way that sincerely puts the organization’s future and public image first, is a quality that too few have these days.
Let’s put this all in perspective. The rumored mythical “extension” is being offered by the leadership that thought Soriano for HoRam was a good deal, were caught off guard by the cost of pitching in the market, Doyle for Turbo (and his cranky knees and bloated contract…and who unbelievable thought his contract wasn’t bloated ENOUGH so they gave him more), and thought $8 Million for Weaver was a good deal.
Sure, from that perspective, it makes sense to throw (away) money at a manager that should be (and hopefully will be) fired later this year.
Oh…and to the people who keep saying we’re being too harsh of critics: You’ve never been to Boston or New York have you? Those fans would NEVER put up with what Mariners fans have for the past four years.
um, so what would those fans have done? complain loudly? stop buying stuff? stop going to games?
Well, in Boston, they were vocal enough to get Grady Little run out of town on a rail…
We should totally get a copy of that playbook.
of course, there is this theory:
The New York Times, October 4, 2006
Lowe threw his first pitch of the playoffs yesterday, high and tight at the Red Sox executives who fired Little nearly three years ago. Back then, it was assumed that Little lost his job by mismanaging Pedro Martinez with a three-run lead in the eighth inning of Game 7. Lowe presented a different theory. ”I firmly believe that if we would have won the World Series, he still would have gotten fired,” Lowe said. When asked to elaborate, Lowe said, ”My belief and a lot of people’s belief was he was going to be let go no matter what.”
It is hard to imagine any franchise throwing a parade and then running off the manager, but when Little was asked about the situation, he pointed out that he had not been given a contract for 2004. ”I didn’t know what was going on, what was going to happen,” Little said. ”But if you don’t have a contract, you’ve got a good idea.”
hmm. wonder what the last few years would have been like with Terry Collins, Joe Maddon or Grady Little as manager ….
The past 4 years? What about having only about 4 _good_ years out of 30?
In the anguished words of Nancy Kerrigan, “Why? Why?”
How would a Hargrove extension impact Ichiro resigning?
Has Hargrove’s locker room popularity changed? Do the players respect him?
Longer Hargrove’s around, the less chance of Ichiro staying.
Fact is, if we don’t make a run in the next month, I can guaruntee he’s walking at the end of the year. As a competitor, he can clearly see what kind of a mess this organization is, and letting Hargrove twist in the wind just confirms the indecisiveness and generall cluelessness of this organization.
OMG the agony of going from first to worst in 6 games. WOW. I know it’s the beginning of the season… but if you as a manger can’t get your players pumped to play a division rival tough. You can’t win ONE out of 6 games… You don’t deserve to be the manager anymore. Let’s put everything aside except for division rivalries. This guy treats it like any other game. These are the games that matter. Let’s face it, the Mariners weren’t “up” for these games. This is garbage. This guy needs to go. Throw some chairs and break some tables or something. Get someone’s attention. Willie and Richie are in the clubhouse playing with toy helicopters and the season is going in the tank. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? C’mon everyone wake up and smell the starbucks. The reason Lou won is because he fricken CARED about winning. Lou was non-chelant when they were giving it their all. And he would throw bases to back up his players on the field. But when he noticed someone not giving it their all, he would let them know about it and get in their face. This guy… he doesn’t even seem to care. Not on the field, not in the dugout. He talks a good game, but he can’t manage, and he can’t light a fire in the bellies of players. He deserves the hook. Get rid of him NOW. HARGROVE IS THE ROOT.
The only bright spot of the weekend was White. He did pretty good against a formidable Angels lineup. 1 Unearned run in 5 innings. Mateo… needs to be cut. Wow…bad.
Someone needs to tell me how the M’s could possibly “go on a run” with the craptastic starting rotation they are running out there. They have virtually NO chance of putting together a significant winning streak. They’re done.
Blow. It. Up. Now.
Woops…3 innings.
#49, it isn’t the starting pitching. It’s the fact that they came out FLAT. Offensively, defensively, and pitching. Those guys are waaaay to loose to be in those games. They begin to hit in the 8th and 9th innings… they aren’t ready to play from the first pitch. That’s managing. I know they are professionals. But look at how the team looks when Felix is on the mound. They look sharp. Because they are being LED. They got no leader in the manager’s chair. That’s the problem, that’s the root of the issues.
Players play when they are challenged, when they know that it matters. How is White pitching? Well…because he knows he’s got to motivate himself. Otherwise, he’ll be pitching in AAA for the rest of his life. The others, that have been up for a while, can’t seem to get motivated. That’s the manager’s job. Get your guys to perform. Light it up…shake it up…FIRE it up. He doesn’t care. He doesn’t think he’s on the hot seat.
sigh.
I just can’t take it no more. I can’t bare to watch these guys anymore. It hurts. It really hurts. It’s painful.
The analog in English soccer is the “vote of confidence from the board of directors. The board usually issues this in support of a flailing manager of a sinking team 48 hours to a week before they sack him.
It does no more to allay speculation than offering Hargrove an extension would do. However, doing so does not cost them $500,000.
more from Baker this morning
Is there any point to responding to a pure religious belief in the power of passion? Probably not.
The Mariners aren’t losing because Hargrove isn’t throwing chairs, and they wouldn’t win if he did. Did Larry Bowa win when he blew up at his bad team? The Mariners are bad. Maybe Billy Martin could have done something about that — not because he was a hothead, but because he was a smart hothead.
I don’t believe the Mariners don’t care about winning. I think they probably know they aren’t going anywhere, though, and that certainty can look a lot like not caring.
If they want to pay a manager gobs of money to run the team poorly I am available.
The analog in English soccer is the “vote of confidence from the board of directors. The board usually issues this in support of a flailing manager of a sinking team 48 hours to a week before they sack him.
Didn’t West Ham do that with Pardew this season? I remember this sudden string of “we have the fullest confidence” articles for a week or two before they sacked him after that Man U debacle. And then Pardew runs his mouth off to just about every paper about how shocked he was they canned him.
We were so close to Hargrove being canned last summer. So close. I’m almost rooting for them not to win at all this week.
47,48,50,51,52,54:
A lot of good all that yelling by Lou did in Tampa Bay, and is doing in Chicago right now.
I always wonder why people confuse not yelling with not caring. When was the last time you saw Joe Torre rip someone’s head off? It’s just a silly assertion that only means we fans take comfort in someone showing us they care — whether it’s accurate or not.
It’s like the basketball coach who gets fired because he’s not marching up and down the sidelines screaming at his players during a game. John Wooden NEVER yelled at his players during a game — he felt like he had done his coaching during practice and now it was time for his players to execute. If they didn’t, well, let’s get the problem solved in an environment where the players might actually learn.
Sigh … If only Wooden had cared enough to yell and scream at his players and the officials. He might have won 20 or 25 championships instead of just 10.
Relax. If you would have read my posts you’d have seen that I said the problem is that the players come out flat and no one seems to get the players ready to play. Fact is… they have the deer in the headlights look most of the time. If you don’t see that… The only time they look completely focused is when Felix is pitching. I’m not saying they are tanking it, all I am saying is it doesn’t seem that they care very much when they are playing…as a team. They don’t come out with fire. It’s not just rah rah, or throwing chairs. What I mean is they’re out there playing but there doesn’t seem to be a chemistry or a focus when Felix isn’t pitching. I don’t think that these players are all bad players. I think we have a pretty decent assortment of talent. They just seem to have no leaders on the team or managing the team it seems to me. You can’t compare this team with Tampa Bay’s either. Let’s revisit Chicago at the end of the season and see where they’re at then.
The word “fact” doesn’t mean what you think it means.
You are seeing what you want to see, to give your anger a moral rationale (i.e., “they don’t just suck, they don’t even care”).