Game 72, Reds at Mariners
Dave · June 24, 2007 at 12:30 pm · Filed Under Game Threads
Arroyo vs Batista, 1:05 pm.
At this point, I’ll be driving back from Atlanta. Still nothing pithy to say.
Arroyo vs Batista, 1:05 pm.
At this point, I’ll be driving back from Atlanta. Still nothing pithy to say.
Something tells me the epithet “pitching duel” isn’t going to apply to this contest. Other epithets, however, likely will.
Broussard in RF and Bloomquist in LF. Why is Ellison even on the roster?
2: who knows.
As an aside, I managed to tune into a Jays game today (“wow, I’ve never seen CBC’s coverage of a Jays’ game before”) and ended up watching a nine-inning no-no and the Big Hurt’s 499.
(er, the no-no went through nine innings, then Jeff Baker broke it up. Boo.)
(Looking over yesterday’s results): Say, you think the A’s miss Street? Or the Nationals miss, well, having any kind of a closer altogether? (Speaking of which, what are the A’s doing playing an NL East team? Not that I mind, given the relative weakness of the NL Central — the Mariner’s record aside — but can we have the Angels play them too sometime in the next couple of weeks instead of KC, Baltimore, and/or Texas? Please?)
Why is Ellison even on the roster?
He’s being saved to pinch hit for the pitcher in interleague games, of course. Oh, wait, there aren’t any more interleague games in NL parks? Do you think Hargrove knows that?
However, I’d much rather have Ellison rotting on the bench than Jones. (I’d much rather have Jones actually playing, of course, but I think Bavasi knows if he called him up he’d just get the Ellison treatment from Hargrove).
I assume Raul is being held out because of his heel injury last night, and not because they expect him to be spending all of “Raul Ibanez Cap Day” signing stuff.
You know, trading for Griffey could be a great smokescreen for getting rid of “fan favorites” like Bloomquist and Ibanez.
Now I know who Sims looks like.
Brainiac.
There’s no real reason to get rid of Bloomquist; used correctly, he’s a fine 25th man and he fills out some of the “local boy” quotient, freeing the team to make more rational acquisitions elsewhere in the lineup (theoretically, anyway). Though he’s soon going to be too expensive for that role.
Never fear: the M’s will eventually pay too much for Griffey when he has no value left except as a “fan favorite” alternating between DH and DL.
did anyone just see the interview with griffey druing the pregame? did he just say he wants to retire as a mariner? i was shocked that he didn’t evade the question like all athletes do…
10… that was my interpretation as well.
The Ms would need to clear out all the DH-types (Ibanez, Sexson, Vidro) before even considering getting him; there is just no room on the bench.
with him being gone, kind of out of sight, out of mind, i really didn’t care, or get into rumors of him coming back…but watching the ceremony on friday made me realize how much i do miss him and would love for him to DH…
Fortunately, the Reds don’t have a whole bunch of lefty hitters, only 4 in the lineup. Batista better keep the ball down and avoid giving Broussard too many chances.
is guillen hurt? or is grover giving him mental time off? ellison should be in left tonight for raul…
JUNIOR!!!!!!!!!!!!
i thought willie caught that…wtf?
i was just telling my girlfriend that i wouldn’t mind seeing junior hit one out…glad that’s out of the way…let’s go Ms!!!!!
I hate Mariner fans sometime. Sure its Griffey, but the Mariners are in the middle of a wild card race, every run scored could be the difference between us winning and losing. But there they are cheering like the fairweather fans we are.
I understand having Broussard in the outfield for his bat. It comes down to Bloomquist vs. Ellison for the other outfield position. I wonder what the criteria is that Hargrove uses to make the selection?
Now I know who Sims looks like.
I don’t know, I think he looks like a pastry mascot. He just needs a hat. Or maybe some shades.
18… why is this bad? I’d cheer Frank Thomas if he hit #500 here, or a pitcher if they did a complete game shut-out. It has nothing to do with being a fair-weather fan, and everything to do with class.
http://www.fadtoys.com/ghostbusters/images/stay-puff.jpg
I think we have a winner.
good call joe…
#18 I’m a huge Mariners fan, but I’ve still been rooting for Junior to hit one out this series (as long as it doesn’t cost us the game). There are a few other ex-mariners that I feel the same way about, but again, I’d never root for them to beat us.
did anyone else’s mlb.tv picture corrupt for the entirety of junior’s at-bat? that was a cruel joke
#25 No, but it did at the bottom of the 1st for me for a few seconds. The footage of Junior stopping past 1st not sure if it was an out or a HR was priceless though.
Mariner fans….the only fans who will cheer a long pop up to the outfielder
batista’s slider is looking good today…
I find it interesting that neither Dave nor Derek have commented much in the last couple of posts, and yet the commentary has been far more negative than it is when they are around.
22: How ’bout the Michelin dude?
way to get on BB…
On the Sims look: My wife thinks he looks like a conehead.
damn griffey…
Dave totally missed that Broussard got doubled off first. He sounded sort of confused when the inning ended.
Good throw by Sexson. We give him a lot of guff for being a bad fielder, but that was a decent play.
i think richie’s a little underrated on defense…he’s not great, but not as bad as some make him out to be…
Sexson must do a lot of yoga or something. I’ve never been able to do the splits that well, even when I was a kid.
From yesterday’s Mets-A’s game: “Hernandez whiffed cleanup batter Eric Chavez on an eephus pitch….” Man, when was the last time you saw that? I know somebody (Indians?) threw one to Ichiro a couple of years ago as a sort of surrender after he’d gone 4 for 4 or something, but it sure doesn’t show up very often.
Lauren, you should watch hockey goalies. And I don’t think any of them have even uttered the word “yoga.”
terrible call…
This could get ugly. Nothing intentional, yet, but….
that looks bad…
Yoga… Y-O-G-A Yoga… Yo-yo-yo-yo-yooooogaaaaa…
nice…
Clever strategy. Between chasing down Mariner flyballs and all that pointless base-running I figure the Reds will be exhausted by the 5th inning. Then we STRIKE!
So, does anyone think that the M’s front office may at least look into acquiring Junior after this series? I know it’d be a longshot, but they’d have to figure at least economically it’d bring in a lot of fans. Plus, did I just hear Niehaus say that Ichiro is wanting the team to acquire Junior?
what call was “terrible” bako ?
Yeah, for $12.5M this year and $16.5M next? Not economically sound. No matter how many fans he brings into the park.
But Griffey’d be a huge upgrade at DH.
37 & 39: Yes, on that point, Roberto Luongo comes to mind.
46: an article in the morning paper had Ichiro saying he would gladly give up his CF position if KGJ joined the M’s.
$12.5M is pretty good compared to what we’re paying for less-worthy production. Also, if Meche is worth $11M then I’m sure Griffey would be worth $12.5M. It’s not just about the fans in the ball park either, the team would make a lot back on merchandise and marketing.
Who knows, maybe that move would be enough to make Ichiro stay as well.
Griffey’s not a CF any more. Not enough range. I don’t even think he’s an OF anymore. He belongs at DH.
Whoa, I just read that Rod Beck was found dead at his home this morning.
53. in a trailer
#52 I think he can still play RF, but for how much longer remains the question. He still tracks balls well and makes good plays, as seen on that Beltre flair earlier.
I wonder if the Reds would buy a straight-up Griffey for Vidro trade.
54, was the trailer down by the river?
And where would the Reds play Vidro?
Can you believe that Mariner’s “fan” not backing off the foul pop? Somebody remove that shirt from him.
#56 We should give the Reds the equivelant of what we got when we traded him to Cincinnati. How about Vidro and Weaver, although I think that’d mean they got the best of us on the two trades.
By the way, whatever happened to Pokey a couple years ago? He started out with a “sore wrist” or something and was put on the 15-day DL as a precaution but never stepped on the field at all. That struck me as odd at the time. (I only mention Pokey now because he’s the guy the Reds wouldn’t trade to the M’s for Griffey).
#59: Remove the shirt and smack him a good one.
Who here doubts for a moment that Hargrove would put Griffey in CF if Ichiro consented?
#62 No way. Hargrove would bench Griffey for Willie.
Wow. I had no idea Vidro could actually hit a baseball.
58… 2B of course.
It could just be a salary dump, or they could trade him to some other team, or this could be part of a three-way… oh hell, I don’t know.
I wonder if we could send Weaver back to the NL; after all, Aurilia and Cirillo came from the NL, sucked here, then went back and did well. Ergo Weaver will as well. Take our Weaver, please!
KGJ might be just a little bit overcome by the emotion of the weekend. Atr the height of his powers here, he felt underappreciated and was always suspicious about the fans. Imagine how he’d respond to the natural discontent of the fans when he is in the severe decline phase of his career. I loved KGJ while he was here but personally …. I’d be happier if he finished out his days as a Red.
I want a Kenji bobblehead!
Ok, this headline at ESPN.com threw me for a loop for a couple minutes ” Gay records second-fastest 200; Carter injured”
48 – From what I remember it was $12.5 this year and next year and a club option for 2009 at $16.5
-Griffey’s contract isn’t really that bad and considering how much the M’s are paying for players right now. Also Minus Weaver and Horam’s contract at the end of the year and you pretty much made up for how much Griffey will take up in payroll.
Nice play. I shudder to think how much this team will miss Ichiro if he leaves after this year.
That’s so awesome. I’d love to win 5-4 with Junior hitting 4 home runs.
Ok, let’s trade for him now!
“considering how much the M’s are paying for players right now”
Which, considering what those same players are producing, is entirely too much.
Niehaus is driving me batty these days. In the last few months its just been a parade of “SWUNG ON and BELTED, DEEP to right field, the FeNce, the WALL….but the park will hold it…” Same thing just now, except Jr’s HR really left no doubt.
72. It would suck to lose 4-0 with KGJ hitting 4 homeruns.
#60: That trade might not be bad for the Reds — Weaver might actually be an improvement over some of their starters.
BTW, glad we wound up with Cammie instead of Pokey!
69… the problem is that we’d have a ton of people who should be DHing (if playing at all) on the bench. How many do you need or even want? Unless we can find a home for Vidro and Sexson, and continue to bite the bullet of having Raul in left, something has to give. Otherwise we’ll be spending all our money on DHs and nothing on pitchers.
#71 I said the same thing the other day, except I said 5 home runs and we’d win 6-5. Don’t worry everybody, we still have the 7th inning coming up, and that’s been our inning this year!
#76 The best defense is a good…
Burke may hit well, but he’s no Ichiro when it comes to stealing
It feels like we are on the verge of getting Arroyo’d the way the Pirates got Weavered the other night. I mean, Arroyo’s been about as bad as Weaver the past 2 months.
#80 The difference is that Arroyo has been good in the past, sporadically good, but still good (especially considering the hitter friendly confines the Reds play in).
Does anyone realize that Arod has an outside chance of a triple crown this year? He’s now hitting over .330.
82: No. But I’ve been wondering what Arod’s response has been seeing how Griffey’s been treated the last few days here
I almost wish we were playing the Yankees next so it would really sink in.
did anyone notice arod’s 9th ining stats this season ?
Are other people having problems with the FSN broadcast or is it reception where I am?
#84 You mean his 7 home runs and hitting around .500?
Is anyone else getting ‘hiccups’ off of Fox?
Well, Sims just mentioned that. Thanks, Dave!
The FSN broadcast is very choppy right now.
never mind. They just admitted it. I’m guessing it’s the storm outside.
#85 They just announced that they’re having issues with their cable signal. It’s working fine on MLB.tv
89: I haven’t had a tv for over a month now. That changes on Tuesday, hopefully.
As long as the signal is fine during Junior’s third home run of the game.
And his fourth.
94, I’m not greedy. It’s OK if the signal is a bit choppy when he does that.
Joe – you’re an awesome guy because of that
Pretty good pitching performance for Batista.
What’s the consensus … send Batista out for another inning or go to the bullpen? I’d send him out for another inning … and yank him when KGJ comes up to bat.
#98 Take him out. That 11 pitch AB finished him off.
How close was that pitch to Ichiro to being a strike? I can’t tell very easily on GameDay.
99 – But he’s barely at 100 pitches and he’s the one guy we have who can go over that and still be pretty effective.
#101 Yeah, but he was also missing the strike zone quite a bit last inning (save for that 11 pitch AB).
Vidro has to be bunting…doesn’t he?
If Vidro hits into a double play here, I’m going right down to the park to nobble him.
Of course, if we score 9 in this inning I’d let him go back out AND pitch to Griffey.
I can’t believe they beat Vidro to first on that bunt…
Nicely done….now, would you walk Sexson to get to Broussard?
What is nobbling, and would it have been fun to watch?
Hargrove is thinking “If we had Griffey we could’ve had him bunt instead.”
Lauren, we don’t want to hear about your nobbling obsession. Sheesh.
Gotta love Ichiro’s running there!
well, that was prettier than another strikeout by Sexson, anyways.
I wonder what kind of extension Bavasi would give Junior so he would come here. 10 year?
He should’ve ran Arroyo over. Take that plate Ichiro!
I heart Ben Broussard.
Broussard needs to play more….
Griffey would’ve had that… I mean, umm…
BROUUU!!!
griffey did his thing…feel-good story over…time for the pen to lock it down…go Ms!
wow…
BIG BEN!
I really heart Ben Broussard.
Wow.
Maybe Ben needs more playing time.
Wow, great catch! I think Broussard doesn’t want his place taken by Griffey.
Who says Broussard can’t play the outfield?
Ichiro! wouldn’t even have gotten to that cuz he doesn’t dive.
sorry junior, but hell-yeah!
114. I agree. I don’t think they do that in Japan. I seem to recall that in Kenji’s first year, he had difficulty with people running him over at the plate.
Ok who took over Broussard’s body? Has he ever come up big before today?
126. Ichiro wouldn’t have had to dive. But a great play for a slow guy.
O great … a new “tradition” is born – around french fries … please tell me this gig doesn’t have legs
That came dangerously close to being a Willie Mays Hayes slide.
I love Adam Dunn, but that guy’s a mess in the field.
burke is the best story of the year…
I can’t believe they threw to 3rd there.
I can’t believe what I just saw!
SQUEEZE!
Free Willie!
I was in the kitchen, what’s this about french fries?
That was sweet.
The guy’s named after Charles Bronson. He always has to take the dramatic route, stupid or not.
Willie!!!!!!!!!!
Awesome. Great fundamental baseball. All set up by total hustle by Yuni.
Great bunt!
SAFE SAFE SAFE
That was pretty. I know that small ball is usually not a great strategy (I’ve read Bill James), but it’s still fun to see it done well.
I think that’s the first time in a long time that Willie has successfully bunted.
Told you guys the 7th would be our inning (not that the 6th didn’t help).
This is one of the few things I like about Hargrove over Lou. Lou almost never put the squeeze on.
It’s Bunt Day here at Safeco.
3 bunts in a row eh?
Wow, 3 bunts in a row and Ichiro is the only one thrown out. Go figure.
Great time for another squeeze.
If you really want to know about the french fries …. last night Blowers bought some fries for a guy who dumped his ont he warning track. That went on for like 15 minutes with the camera constantly returning to the guy and Sims cackling constantly. Today … a woman is in the same area holding up a sign that says: How Blow, how ’bout some fries.” So, of course, they send her some fries …. and a wman with a FSN microphone so I imagine we’ll be hearing from the recipient. Too bad this exciting game is taking away from the opportunity to cut to the French fry lady.
hargrove is actually managing…
They’re going to walk Vidro?????
What an insult to Sexson to walk Vidro to get to him.
god i hope sexxy goes yard and makes them pay…
I wonder if they were garlic fries. They weren’t yesterday – I remember the guy dumping tartar sauce onto the field, so it must have been from Ivar’s.
Anyone surprised they haven’t taken Arroyo out yet?
130 – I know. I was joking and making fun of the people I’ve heard who say he doesn’t dive.
That’s Our Sexson!
Well gee, Richie. Way to help out.
You know, this is a damn fun game to watch. Some really good baseball being played.
good call don…great game…
And that wasn’t a bad at bat by Richie…good pitches by Arroyo.
so the comeback is credited to the blowers home fries…
Yeah, big HR ball wins more ballgames, but small ball is more fun to watch. Expanding the size of the strike zone (widen the plate two inches) would make contact-hitters more valuable, power hitters less, and reduce walking.
It’ll never happen.
Oh lawd, not with these fries again…
please…god…no morrow…
George Sherrill can be some kind of nasty!
Bring Putz in now.
going to JJ…nice…
Has anyone on the M’s flown under the radar while being great more than George Sherrill?
And to 170: your wish has been granted.
a reasonable and not totally necessary move…
I’m with robbbb. I’ve been wishing the strike zone would be expanded (or at least called in accordance with the rules) for years. HRs have been cheapened–500 is no longer automatic for the HOF–and the overemphasis on them has of course fueled the use of steroids. I want the 3-2 pitchers’ duels with lots of strategy back. I think addressing the strike zone would do more for this issue than banning the DH, which is the usually proposed solution.
On a different subject, JJ is absolutely amazing.
I believe there should be a Constitutiuonal ammendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter.
How about having Guillen hit for Bloomquist and then put Ellison in for the top of the 9th?
That is if we get to Bloomquist.
Hey, when Jr. hit his second HR, did the announcers mention that he “finally” got to 400 HR’s at Safeco?
178 – and the yankees
How ironic would it be if Griffey used his 5-and-10 rights to force a trade back to Seattle?
I don’t want to outlaw the Yankees. In fact, watching them lose this year has been a lot of fun.
Fair enough.
YES… Pirates just tied it up vs Angels.
That was probably a failed splitter.
182: Actually, it might be more fun if the Yanks were merely perpetually banished to non-relevant status — much like the D-Rays have been for their whole existence.
If I heard The Kid right, he says he owes it to us to come back….
#184–They’re doing it right now. They brought Clemens in to shut down the Giants and it doesn’t appear to be working so great.
Meanwhile, the Yankees are down 3-1 to the Giants….and Clemens is now pitching in relief!
JJ needs to stop playing with this guy…
Dang. K-rod is losin’ it down in Anaheim. I think that’s like four wild pitches this inning (Pirates tied it with two outs in the 9th).
they’ve played that part of the interview three times…think they’re trying to let bavasi know what’s up?
I’ve enjoyed the Yankees’ collapse too, but I still think their enormous resources are a problem for the game as a whole. The simplest solution would be to put another team in the NY area, which potentially could cut into both the Yankees’ and Mets’ markets. BTW, is anybody else disgusted at how the Yankees bamboozled the city of NY to build them a new stadium?? It’s not like they couldn’t have done it themselves, out of pocket change.
Putz just can’t command the splitter this year.
Came pretty close that time.
FSN reported that pitch at 75.. Blowers said 98.
Lauren – That might well be a sign of the apocalypse if ol’ Frankie-Rod is going to pieces!
What a satisfying game….
1. We win a well-pitched, well-played game. Batista looks good, the bullpen looks great, a clutch double by Broussard to tie it (along with a really nice grab in the 7th in RF), an inning with 3 nice bunts, including a squeeze.
2. Griffey hits 2 HR’s, gets a nice sendoff by the fans after the 8th, and says he’d like to end his career in Seattle.
3. The Yankees are losing and look like they are going back under .500 again.
That’s what I call a perfect baseball day.
Putz is GOLD!
Putz woooooo!
nice
What a game! Just like so many here wanted it – junior goes yard (twice!) but we pull it out. I heart this game of baseball!
JJ!!
I’ve been hard on the M’s the last few years, but that was a very nicely-played game. Fun to watch.
Think Cincinatti would trade Junior for Guillen?
probably not Guillen by himself… throw in a Wlad or Clement or someone and i would think so
cleveland lost too…nice…
Mets put the lumber to Oakland today and Pittsburgh tied up the Angels in the 9th. Come on Pirates.
So Guillen and Clement to Cinci, we put JR in Right, get another LH bat, Rauuuul to DH, and AJ to left?
if you want to talk trades, let’s throw in vidro, get the white sox involved, and get buerle in here for the rotation too…in a perfect world…
lets gift them Vidro too while were at it… heh
jones, ichiro, junior in the outfield…raul DH…that would be freakin money…
most one-sided 3-way trade of all time?
well, we’d give up balentien or someone to the white sox…it will neer happen, but i would love to get buerle and griffey with jones in left…
I hate to be negative on all of this Griffey love, but remember that he’s spent most of his time in Cincinnati on the DL, as the hamstring breakdown Bill James had predicted came to pass. The M’s need to get younger, not older. They’ve got a good core of young players. It’s often a good idea to get some veterans to help the youngsters, but the M’s alreay overrely on veterans, and Griffey would be expensive. I don’t think the risk is worth it. Remember, it’s about winning games, not feeling the love.
Griffey got his HRs and the M’s got the W, so everybody should be happy.
2 bunts > 2 HRs. And a squeeze is far more exciting than a grand slam. I love small ball.
In some ways that felt like the inverse of the first game I saw at Safeco this season, April 19th against Minnesota, when the Twins befuddled the M’s with a couple of unexpected bunts. At the time I had to give credit to Gardenhire for managing his way into a victory, so today I have to give kudos to Hargrove.
Beavers are on! Gotta go.
#3: I live near the Canadian border, so I see the Blue Jays on CBC all the time. The CBC’s coverage of the Olympics is excellent–much better than the US networks–but for some reason they’ve hired baseball announcers who do nothing but spout cliches. They’ve obviously taken Crash Davis’ course (“Bull Durham” reference). I usually turn off the sound in dismay. Unfortunately, I slept in this am (the Jays are on early on the W. Coast), and thus missed the near no-hitter. Incidentally, Thomas’ almost-500 proves my earlier point about how 500 isn’t as meaningful as it once was; he’s a borderline HOF candidate at best.
Back in the early-mid 90s we had the CBC on cable, and I’d often watch “Speedy Muffler Blue Jays baseball”. The most exciting time was when Olerud was flirting with .400 back in ’93 – caught as many games as I could. Great season for the Jays, too.
Shit. Angels just pulled it out.
Lauren: To nobble is “To disable (a racehorse), especially by drugging”. I was thinking something more like “(baseball player) especially by using a pocket knife”.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nobble
If he really, REALLY hacks me off, I’ll threaten to six-pack him.
[Please note all of this is merely humour in bad taste; if we really want to truncate the career of Jose Vidro we'll have to find someone more naturally inclined to thuggery.]
…and the Angles win in 10th. Mothertruckers.
actually, that was very pithy.
I expect Lauren nobbled that “some blonde chick” she saw Yuni with. It’s possible to do something without knowing what it’s called.
195: Interesting idea, though it could also flop…thinking of how the Lakers wind up paying the Clippers’ light bill in LA, and also, of how the NJ Devils (partly owned by Steinbrenner, ironically) have wound up winning the Stanley Cup in recent years and yet are STILL outdrawn and outspent by the “Broadway Blue” Rangers. Not saying that an expansion/relocated third team in NY/NJ wouldn’t work in the long run, but it might take a long time to build fan loyalty — especially given the Yanks’ iconic status there.
BTW, I agree 100% on that stadium debacle in NYC — how many zillions has Steiny made off that team over the years? If the Giants could get private financing to secure AT&T-nee-PacBell Park, it certainly seems to me like ol’ George could’ve chipped in a little more for his new digs.
“Remember, it’s about winning games, not feeling the love.”
For once I WANNA feel the love too. I guess in my naivety I believe that baseball is more than just stats, defensive range charts, and yes…even W/L totals. Where story, tradition, drama, and even love…are also integral parts to the legacy of a baseball team. And often the stuff that we remember as ‘great’ about the game.
When I’m an old man sitting in a recliner chair I want to look back into my memories and recall the story of Junior: “The hero of my youth. The one who broke my heart in adolescence…the man who finally came home.” Is it a love affair with this guy? Most definitely, yes. And love affairs are seldom rational. In the end, that might be what makes them so very special.
220: Thanks for the heads-up on CBC’s coverage of the Jays. I remember years ago when I was a kid how their game-of-the-week coverage would alternate between the Jays and the Expos…but then they lost the rights to Jays’ games for a while (think they went to TSN for a few years). Anyways, good to know…thanks!
228-
Exactly. For those of us who been fans since the late 70′s and struggled through with the M’s in the 80′s until Jr. came along, this weekend brought some form of closure to the heart break of him leaving in 2000. Junior may not have built Safeco Field literally, but without him they would be gone because nobody would have cared if they stayed or went in 1995 (at least not enough people). I can’t wait for him to retire as a Mariner, whether on the field or via a trade/retire ceremony.
shoulder. rehabbed, reinjured, had two surgeries.
well, except maybe for the other day when the Cubs beat the ChiSox with one.
well, it wasn’t just a hamstring or two — there was also a torn knee tendon, a dislocated right shoulder and torn ankle tendon.
or the time we beat the White Sox in game 3 of the 2000 Division Series.
I thought about mentioning that too
230-
You’re exactly right…Griffey was a key catalyst to saving baseball in Seattle. Friends of mine (I live in California) couldn’t understand *why* Griffey was given such a big deal before the game Friday, why he was allowed to speak, seeing as he was playing for an opposing team. No amount of reason could convince them it wasn’t in good taste.
Today was the perfect end to the series – Griffey with 2 HRs, giving the fans what they wanted to see, and the M’s win, too.
McLaren had this quote after he called for the sqeeze a couple weeks ago:
““I’ve always liked the squeeze,†McLaren said. “I can remember working on it in spring training with Lou, and we wouldn’t use it for three or four months. Then he’d ask me what the squeeze sign was. But I like the squeeze play. It keeps the other team honest, but you’ve got to pick your spots. The situation was there and it worked out great, so we can all smile about it.—
OK, two thoughts:
1. The Ms are doing fine. Raise your hand if you thought we would be six over .500 at this point? The fact that the Angels are playing better than anyone ever imagined does not negate the fact that this franchise is going in the right direction.
2. I think there is a very real chance we will see a deal for Griffey. Is he the leftie power bat we need? I say yes. I think he has about 5 decent years left and what a lift for the franchise. I hope it happens.
Ok, I’m hard-hearted, I admit it. And yes, Jr was probably as responsible as anybody for saving baseball here, and obviously that’s important. I’m just pointing out that from a pure baseball perspective, getting him might not be a great move, given his age and injury history. Of course, evaluating any move would depend on who we give up, and how much he costs and for how long.
#220 – Thomas a borderline HoFer? Career OBP of .423, SLG of .562. Counting stats do play a part and 500 HRs, 1600 RBIs, Back to back MVPs in 93-94. To me, there is no doubt that Thomas is a hall of famer.
P.S. Randy Johnson and Edgar had a lot to do with saving baseball here too; it wasn’t just Jr. But he brought a lot of excitement and charisma to the sport, as well as production, and that does count for something.
#238: I’d agree with Thomas in the HOF, except 1) too much time lost to injury, and 2) stats cheapened by the era he played in.
I’m guessing if the Ms were to make a move, it would be for pitching.
and, re: Rod Beck, two nice pieces here and here
OK, I know it’s pure rosterbation, but what about Sexson for Griffey, straight up?
Granted, saving baseball in Seattle was a team effort (Gar, Bone, RJ, etc.), but Junior was very much a part of that team effort in those days.
With all of Selig’s talk of contraction a few years back, it’s entirely possible that had the M’s moved to Tampa/St. Pete’s back in ’95, the franchise may not even exist right now.
If you guys keep doing that, you’ll go blind.
Let’s see:
Please stop the rosterbation.
Frank Thomas is a HoFer. If he’s not, then Edgar certainly isn’t.
I’d like to see Griffey back, but not at the cost of Adam Jones.
A player can’t do much about the era in which he plays, but to hit 500 homers despite “too much time lost to injury” stongly suggests to me that Frank Thomas is a HoFer.
I think that, for all his high profile numbers, Sammy Sosa’s free swinging ways and “asterisks” make him a more debatable case for the Hall.
Junior’s a no-brainer and he’ll go in as a Mariner.
Saving baseball in Seattle? Let’s not forget the politicians and the taxpayers, eh?
No player was actually well enough loved to convince the electorate to vote for the stadium.
#242: The Reds will be paying Joey Votto league minimum to play first base for them in ’08.
Besides, if they don’t want to pay Dunn $13M in ’08, why would they want to pay Sexson $14M?
Why don’t we just trade all of our worst players for the best players on some other team?
#249: I’d rather trade Sexson for Bailey. He’s not really ready yet so I’m sure the reds would go for it.
To suggest that Frank Thomas is not a Hall of Famer is absurd. Compare him to Griffey. Griffey has about 90 more home runs, but Thomas’ career OPS is 50+ points higher than Griffey’s. If you think Griffey is a Hall of Famer (and you should), then certainly Frank Thomas is
Meant to add that other than that their numbers are fairly similar. Why is there no edit function on this forum?
It’s not a forum.
247: Didn’t the electorate vote against the stadium? And for the monorail, six times? Yay democracy.
247. Do you really think the politicians AND taxpayers would care enough about a team like the Mariners if it didn’t have a player like Ken Griffey, Jr., or a year like ’95, for that matter?
Without KGJ, the Mariners would have been what the Devil Rays are now, and any city that wanted them, LIKE Tampa Bay-St. Pete, could have had them, either in ’92-93 or later, when the Kingdome was starting to fall apart… the Mariners would have demanded another stadium and those politicians and taxpayes would have said, “Bye-bye.”
254 Technically the electorate didn’t reject “a stadium,” what it rejected was a particular plan to build a stadium.
And although I voted for the monorail several times, given the current cost estimates, I wouldn’t vote for it again.
No, the electorate didn’t vote against the stadium. The electorate voted against one particular financing plan for the stadium.
To suggest that Frank Thomas is not a Hall of Famer is absurd. Compare him to Griffey. Griffey has about 90 more home runs, but Thomas’ career OPS is 50+ points higher than Griffey’s. If you think Griffey is a Hall of Famer (and you should), then certainly Frank Thomas is
Defense matters.
251 I have no doubt that either the Kid or the Big Hurt should be in the HOF. They are textbook cases, even if both have faded since the 90′s. But it should be noted that even if Thomas had 50+ points of OPS on Griffey, Griffey had more than a decade of gold glove defense in center field, while Thomas was playing first base and DH.
257, 258 Ralph, are you my long lost twin brother?
257: Similar to what happened in SF at first. Once the Giants ownership had the funding for PBP secured, though, basically all that was left to vote on was the piece of land.
I want the 3-2 pitchers’ duels with lots of strategy back.
There are plenty of them, even in today’s environment. And we’ve already TRIED the “let’s expand the strike zone” trick- this was done in 1963.
What we ended up with is a lot of 2-1 games where it was waiting for one team to hit a HR, batting champions who hit .301, leagues that hit .235-.240 with an OPS around Willie Bloomquist’s career OPS.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1967.shtml
Is THAT good baseball? No, in my opinion- it’s BOOOOORING watching teams not score and look totally inept at the plate. And the fans think so, too- attendance and league scoring generally correlate pretty closely.
Defense matters.
Right, but defense matters enough so that you’d exclude one of the best offensive first basemen to ever play the game from the HOF?
I’m just not seeing it.
We’d probably have to unload Balentien for Jr, but I think the move would be worth it for the PR impact alone.
Next year’s OF: Jones-Ichiro-Griffey
Anyone think Jr. would take Adam Jones under his wing? I do.
If Frank Thomas isn’t a Hall of Famer, then exactly what criteria are you using for HOF admission? Anyone who don’t think Thomas is a HOF’er is out of touch with reality. He is 11th all-time in career OPS, ahead of such lightweights as Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Cobb, Aaron, FRobinson, McGwire. He is one of the greatest hitters of all-time. OF COURSE he will be in the HOF….
Defense matters? Not that much.
I think people are looking for arguments here where none exist.
Incidentally, Edgar’s career OPS is better than Aaron’s….
Has a dominant pitcher ever been excluded from the HoF because of his defense?
Gold gloves weren’t awarded until 1957, so it’s hard to say how much defense played a role in early HOF selections. Obviously, defense had some impact, because there are several HOF’ers who don’t have impressive offensive numbers.
He is 11th all-time in career OPS, ahead of such lightweights as Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, Cobb, Aaron, FRobinson, McGwire…
Well, OPS isn’t era-independent. Many of your examples played in the 1960′s, when a .500-.550 SLG led the league.
Or Cobb- when entire LEAGUES slugged .350. So judging Thomas on that standard’s not fair.
For OPS+ (which IS adjusted for era, park, league and so on), Thomas is 16th.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml
He’s comparable to guys like Mize and Greenberg, who ARE in the HOF. That sounds about right.
Granted, but Thomas did lead the AL in OPS 4 times in 7 years, which seems to indicate that he was among the best hitters of his era for an extended period of time.
Interesting that Edgar and ARod have identical career OPS+ numbers, and both are ahead of Griffey.
Hrmmm….I’d say that was enough ta START a Hall of Fame discussion…
At that level, someone’s gotta make the argument he ISN’T Hall material…”Defense counts” isn’t anough…
If Thomas had spent his whole career playing in a city the media actually likes (i.e. New York, Boston), he’d probably be a slam-dunk for the HOF on the first ballot.
What I’m amazed about is where Pujols is already on this list and he’s only 27…WOW!
Here’s Thomas’ baseballreference HoF scores:
Black Ink: Batting – 21 (97) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 202 (37) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 60.5 (27) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 184.0 (49) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Top 50 in three standards, top 100 in Black Ink. 7 consecutive seasons with an OBP above .425, top 5 in OBP eight times. Career OBP 16th all time, career OPS+ 16th all-time. 7 top 5 finishes in SLG, one SLG title, 18th all-time.
And that’s before we even get to the counting stats. Top 5 in times on base and walks in 9 of his first 10 full seasons. 1594 walks, 12th all-time. 499 home runs. 976 extra base hits, 30th all-time. But the counting stats pale compared to Thomas’ ability to draw a walk.
In summary, Frank Thomas is such an obvious HoFer that not putting him in is a bigger travesty than Rabbit Maranville being in the Hall. He was the greatest right-handed hitter of the 1990s. Period. This shouldn’t even be a discussion.
255-
Thank you. Some people just don’t understand what Griffey meant around here. Maybe the don’t remember the late 70′s and all of the 80′s. He was an amazing draw at home and on the road. He legitimized this place as a baseball town. He had help on the field, but without him the Mariners would not be here. I don’t care what happened after 95. Many people pulled strings, but without Griffey the Mariners would not still be in this town. He was a national superstar.
Get a load of this… Griffey will be on FSN tonight at 10pm and say, I want to retire a Mariner.”
When I said “defense matters”, I didn’t mean Thomas isn’t HOF-worthy. Of course he is. Of course Griffey is also. I was responding to the implied suggestion that Thomas is a better player than Griffey. He isn’t, because a Gold-Glove caliber CF brings a lot more value to a team than a mediocre 1B-DH, all other things being equal.
Yeesh. I dunno if that’s more of an “okay with it” or “I want to”… he owes it to Seattle and himself? Wow. Gonna be hearing a lot about that.
It must be noted that the teams of the early 90′s, back when attendance floundered like the team did and the owners were ready to move it to Tampa, DID have Griffey. Griffey didn’t just show up in 1995: he had been with the team since the ealy 90′s, and the team STILL almost bolted for Tampa.
Did 1995 do a lot to inspire the fanbase, the government and the conglomerate of ownership to build Safeco? Certainly, it had an impact. But Junior did not do it alone, and if he was the driving force, then why was the team ready to bolt anyway even though he was here and doing well?
I mentioned it yesterday, but I’ll mention it again since I see some new names here: read Art Thiel’s “Out of Left Field” if you haven’t yet. It’s a comprehensive history of everything that led to the new ownership group getting Safeco built and keeping the team in Seattle.
I was a huge fan of Griffey growing up, he was an inspiration to the fanbase, a franchise star, and it’s nice to see him come back and get a nice reception… but to say he saved the Mariners from leaving town is flat out untrue.
Noblesse oblige?
280: What is your agenda exactly? B/c if it is to suggest that the M’s would still be in Seattle if Griffey had never come around, I don’t see it.
280-
I have to agree with 282. If Griffey hadn’t come around, do you truly, honestly believe the Mariners would still be in Seattle today? I don’t see it, and I doubt many others do either.
278- I think we mostly agree. I do think Griffey overall has had a better career than Frank Thomas and the difference is definitely the defense. Judged solely on hitting, I might lean towward Thomas, but it would be close to a dead heat. As others have pointed out, defense is nice, but it’s not gonna keep an obvious Hall of Fame hitter out of the Hall. I think we all agree that Griffey is a first ballot hall of famer. Since I think Thomas was at least as good a hitter as Griffey, that makes Thomas an obvious Hall of Famer…
anybody know where i can watch the junior interview online?
I’m interested if anyone here knows if anything has changed with Yorman Bazardo since he was traded to the Tigers. He’s pitched quite well for Toledo and even got called up for a little while. Has any of his velocity returned, or has nothing changed from when he was dealt and he’s not still worth lamenting over?
#255: 1995 saved the Mariners, you are correct. However, KGJ did not make 1995. Randy had more to do with it than any other player.
Go back and look at the numbers from that year if you don’t believe me.
1995 saved the Mariners, and 1995 was Randy and Edgar. But were it not for Griffey, the M’s would have moved before 1995.
don’t forget what junior did in 1989-1994 for baseball in seattle. all the posters, commercials, home run derbys, espn highlights…he sold tickets and created interested far before we knew who randy and edgar were. he is the single biggest reason people watched the mariners in the early 90′s. once they built around him and got some help, then 95 took care of itself. of course that summer was a collective effort. it’s not hard to remember how much the unit and ‘gar meant. but if we talk about saving seattle baseball, it started before then.
Rob… in 178:
“I believe there should be a Constitutiuonal ammendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter.”
I’ve never understood this attitude towards the DH. To me, watching pitchers hit is boring–they’re almost always an automatic out. Replacing an easy out with one of the better hitters on a team just makes sense. Tradition is nice and all, but if that’s all we went by teams would still be wearing 20-pound wool uniforms and fans behind the plate would be routinely beaned by balls fouled straight back. There’s something to be said for modern innovations that improve the game.
People dislike the DH position for the same reason they dislike having separate offensive and defensive teams in the NFL.