Adam Jones up on Friday, vets grumbling

DMZ · August 2, 2007 at 9:31 am · Filed Under Mariners 

Here’s Geoff Baker’s blog entry on this. Includes several quotes of Guillen being pissed off about it. Check it out, seriously.

MLB.com (“Fox News for baseball”) has the story, which follows their 7/31 story by Patrick Brown which included the line “As the old adage says: If it ain’t broke, don’t’ fix it.”

The new story gives us

“I would prefer not to talk about Adam’s role at this time,” McLaren said. “We’ll talk about that on Friday.”

Jason Ellison will be moved to make room.

As others said in comments, it’s unreasonable to expect people who are so driven they become elite athletes to think someone else can do their job better than they can, to recognize when they’re hurting their team, and so on. Almost no baseball player ever retires early.

Baker raises a particularly interesting issue for why they may not have made the move earlier: McLaren as a new manager needed time to earn the players’ trust (which you’d hope he’d have done as bench coach but never mind that) before doing something like this.

In any event — the M’s offense has some huge holes in it. Adam Jones is a huge bat. We’ll see how well he does, of course, but minor league performances are outstanding predictors of major league performance, Guillen’s opinions aside. The outfield defense has a huge hole in it. Adam Jones plays good outfield defense.

Moreover — no other team, contender or not, has a player like Jones in the minors. Any comparable prospect this year on any team has been called up. The Tigers managed to find room for Miller, and on and on. For all the talk about how you don’t want to be in a pennant race with a rookie, what you really don’t want is to be in a pennant race with a team that’s not as good as it could be, and that’s what the M’s have been fielding for a while, out of fear for team chemistry, the team’s trust in McLaren, or whatever.

Comments

305 Responses to “Adam Jones up on Friday, vets grumbling”

  1. Jay R. on August 2nd, 2007 9:35 am

    Winning creates chemistry. If AJ helps them win, all will be forgiven. Nice to see that management is FINALLY starting to attempt to fill the gaping holes in the middle of the lineup.

  2. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 9:35 am

    Meh.

    Could care less about the vets (particularly on a team with a regular batting .200 or regulars posting .650 OPS). You scrap and claw for every advantage, for every edge you can. Players will bend the rules….GMs bringing in hot hitting rookies to replace a light hitting outfielder.

    On the other hand, I don’t mind Guillen’s comments. A little sass from someone who IS getting the job done isn’t a problem. And a skeptical attitude probably shouldn’t hurt Jones.

  3. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 9:38 am

    2- Thats all I was trying to say in the bottom of last nights post, he wasn’t out of line or anything crazy. Guillen said he didn’t understand the move and Jones needs to show them what he’s got.

  4. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 9:43 am

    7/31- Headline, “No room for Jones right now”
    8/2- Headline, “Jones to join team on Friday”

    Good job over there at seattlemariners.com!!

  5. Sec 108 on August 2nd, 2007 9:43 am

    I have never been a fan of Guillen’s. This current attitude reminds me of people in my industry who refused to teach me anything when I was young because my brains, motivation and willingness to do anything created a threat to their lazy existence.

    NOT saying Guillen is lazy, but I prefer the attitude of helping the young learn the ropes. If we as people do the right thing, it rarely bites us in the butt. Guillen better realize he needs to still win this organization over if he will return. Treating our #1 Prospect like a problem will not win him any friends.

    Guillen will be hearing my feelings about his comments on Saturday night.

  6. Bernoulli on August 2nd, 2007 9:45 am

    I remember the trading deadline in 2001. There was a furious debate as to whether the Mariners should upgrade the team, worrying about whether a slight upgrade would compensate for disruption in team chemistry. Obviously, they came up short in the end, but the argument was pertinent. “If it ain’t broke,” people chanted.

    That team won 116 games. This year’s edition will win 90-95.

    Now the mantra is still being chanted by veterans, journalists and radio personalities. I don’t understand it. It’s broke. We’re not in first place. At this rate we will not be in first place. Run differentials and major statistics show we’re lucky to be this close to first place. It’s not as though we’re up fifteen games in the division this time.

    But the thing about “If it ain’t broke” that I hate the most is that it connotes that we don’t know how it’s working. There are a lot of areas in life where we don’t wait for things to break to fix them. We learn how they work, we maintain and upgrade them. A baseball team should work the same way.

  7. AuburnM on August 2nd, 2007 9:48 am

    I support this move, but you can’t ignore the human element here. If you have ever been a boss and managed people you know that morale and chemistry matter.

    McLaren needs to ease Jones into the system gradually, which is why they should’ve made this move weeks ago.

  8. hollywood_mariners_fan on August 2nd, 2007 9:49 am

    Is it Friday yet?

  9. B_Con on August 2nd, 2007 9:49 am

    This possible Sexson platoon is huge news as well. I really hope they give Broussard the righties, because he is obviously a far better hitter than Sexson at this point.

  10. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 9:51 am

    Guillen does hate young guys. Did you see him leading the charge to violently attack Yuni for winning last nights game? He sprinted right after him then started jumping on him, what a jackass!

    Guillen is your prototypical veteran, sticks up for the team (Adam Jones has done exactly nothing so far this year for the M’s, he isn’t on the team yet) and wants to win. Guillen thinks they can do it with the 13 they have had.

  11. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 9:54 am

    The M’s are just a week removed from a seven game losing streak, have trailed the Angels all summer, half the team is struggling at the plate since the AS break, Sexson is a train wreck right now, Ibanez is looking more broken down all the time, and we’re still hearing “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it?”

    This isn’t the Big Red Machine that’s being messed with, Guillen. It’s a team that’s hanging in there and has given itself a shot, but needs to get better to have a legit run at the playoffs.

  12. firova2 on August 2nd, 2007 9:55 am

    Jones is going to be under a lot more pressure than Guillen or most of his teammates were when they broke in. Why make it tougher for him? He’s on your side, Jose.

  13. ajdaddy on August 2nd, 2007 9:56 am

    Morale is important, and I suppose Guillen doesn’t want to see the ‘prospect’ brought up to appease the masses…I assume he can read, and hear, and has had his fill of the Adam Jones stuff. That being said, Jones just has to keep his head down, play solid, and be a professional, and the acceptance will come. No different than any other office/team, you got to prove yourself! Jeff Nelson has been airing the same or similar thoughts on the KJR postgame for weeks. This is more of a inside the clubhouse issue.

  14. AQ on August 2nd, 2007 10:00 am

    My main problem with Guillen’s statements stem from the fact that he decided to spout off to the press about his concerns. Why not talk to McLaren privately about those concerns? And if he did talk to McLaren about them and wasn’t placated by the explanation, he still needs to keep those issues in-house.

    Is Guillen worried that AJ is going to cut into his playing time or something? If so, someone should take him aside and put his mind at ease. There’s at least 2 other players on the roster who should have greater worries about their playing time than Guillen.

  15. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 10:03 am

    Uhh, you say “Adam Jones has done nothing for the team this year” as if it was somehow his decision. It’s not his fault he’s been in the minors for two months when he shouldn’t have been.

    I don’t necessarily judge Guillen individually for his comments, but every time someone says “well, that’s what you should expect him to say”, it leads to further reinforcement to the people making personnel decisions that it’s okay to continue to ignore obvious upgrades to their team for fear of upsetting “team chemistry”.

    Morale is important, but if the team gets better, that will help morale. It’s like MAGIC.

  16. AuburnM on August 2nd, 2007 10:04 am

    Just ease Jones in gradually and all should be well.

  17. zzyzx on August 2nd, 2007 10:05 am

    What scares me about that reaction is what happens if Jones starts out 1-10 or something? Hopefully, he’ll start out hot and it won’t be an issue.

  18. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 10:05 am

    14- I think Guillen is sticking up for his other team mates, not worried about his playing time.

  19. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 10:08 am

    Baker raises a particularly interesting issue for why they may not have made the move earlier: McLaren as a new manager needed time to earn the players’ trust (which you’d hope he’d have done as bench coach but never mind that) before doing something like this.

    Hmmm….given the….unusual….way McLaren got the job, that might have been a not-dumb reason. It’s one thing if he was prepared and knew which buttons to push when; it’s another if you’re caught flat footed, and need time to prepare for ALL phases of the job.

    (And note that I said not-dumb….didn’t say smart).

  20. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 10:08 am

    15- It isn’t his fault, but that doesn’t make the statement false.

    We don’t know what Guillen knows about Adam Jones, he isn’t a scout and I am guessing he doesn’t read USSM blogs about Jones coming up.

  21. Slippery Elmer on August 2nd, 2007 10:08 am

    With a +2 run differential the M’s are 12 games over .500. How can that be explained?–chemistry is one possibility. It’s more tangible than “luck” anyway, to me. It’s obvious at least some of the players on the team believe it’s their camaraderie that has pulled them out of the long losing streaks. And Guillen, especially, should know the effect poor team chemistry can have on a clubhouse.

    This will be a stressful situtation for Jones. If he is given a starting job and struggles, team chemistry may indeed suffer, as Guillen starts sniping away. I could see, then, how he might become a self-fulfilling prophecy. However, if Jones can play better than the player he replaces, Guillen would have no room to complain, and the grand experiment would be a success.

  22. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 10:10 am

    Chemistry is one possibility.

    It’s not the reason, though.

  23. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 10:10 am

    #16—

    Yup. Ease him in gradually (which should have been done a month ago). Not a threat to veterans…he’s subbing in for folks who need a rest.

    And if he just happens to perform superlatively, then the regulars are gonna accept that. And if he doesn’t, you don’t want him in there anyway, and you use him less.

  24. Sec 108 on August 2nd, 2007 10:13 am

    I am hoping for a Cameron style entrance to Safeco for AJ this year. A nice running catch that everyone assumed was a double coming off the bat. Something like that will get the fans behind this move, and as we all know, the M’s FO is only worried about one thing. Fannies in the seats.

  25. fetish on August 2nd, 2007 10:15 am

    For all those kvetching about Guillen’s comments: Out-and-out harassment of rookies (and more-or-less rookies) is a time honored tradition in the Major Leagues. Guillen is right that this isn’t the minor leagues – this is The Show. It’s not like getting the call from AA to AAA or any other league.

    Adam Jones will either step up or step off. Last season, he stepped off and payed for it by spending all of June and July in the minors when he could have been playing at the highest level.

    We’ll see. I’ve upped my over/under of him to .770

  26. Bernoulli on August 2nd, 2007 10:15 am

    23: Ridiculous. If by “easing him in” you mean sitting him against right-handers and using him as a defensive replacement, his ABs are going to be significantly reduced. Doing that will tell you less about whether you want him in there.

    .300 hitters don’t get three hits every ten at bats. What I find incredible is that we’ve given certain veterans 400 ABs to pull themselves out of their year-long slumps because we know they’re better than they’re playing. Well, if Adam Jones bats .200 in his first three weeks in 50 ABs, we have reason to believe he’ll be better than he’s playing too.

  27. petec on August 2nd, 2007 10:15 am

    So Jose thinks the guys they have are getting the job done. Maybe so, but it’s not gonna last with these numbers from regulars. These are July’s OPS numbers:

    Ichiro .690
    Betancourt .653
    Sexson .584
    Johjima .543
    Ibanez .503
    Lopez .461

  28. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 10:16 am

    Too bad Mark McLemore is busy broadcasting for the Rangers. It’d be interesting to have him spend some time in the clubhouse the next few weeks. The way Guillen is barking, I wonder if he think Jones is taking his spot? I mean, remember during the start of the year, it was Ellison coming in for Guillen and not Ibanez as a defensive replacement late. Of course, that was when Guillen was recovering from a sprain, but so far this year, the team has acted as if it thought Raul was the better defensive corner OF…

    Speaking of Ellison, sorry to see him go without getting a chance to do more. I hope he lands on his feet somewhere good. Jacque Jones has an OPS+ of 68 in Chicago, d’ya think Lou would want him?

  29. Logger on August 2nd, 2007 10:16 am

    22 – Yes, Weaver’s first six starts and a few other blow outs are part of the reason.

  30. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 10:17 am

    23: Ridiculous. If by “easing him in” you mean sitting him against right-handers and using him as a defensive replacement,

    Nope.

  31. fetish on August 2nd, 2007 10:22 am

    What scares me about that reaction is what happens if Jones starts out 1-10 or something? Hopefully, he’ll start out hot and it won’t be an issue.

    That’s the pressure put on every rookie. They’ve GOT to preform right off the jump or they’ll be back on the bus in no time. It won’t be different for Adam Jones. It’s not like he’s Griffey or A-Rod coming up at 19 years old. Even if Triunful is on the team in ’10, it won’t be like with those guys.

  32. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 10:23 am

    If you have ever been a boss and managed people you know that morale and chemistry matter.

    I have been a boss and managed people, and when you have people who aren’t getting the job done and you expect they won’t get the job done in the future, you replace them, even if they’re beloved in the office. And if someone else in your department makes a public stink about it, you call them into your office and tell them to knock it off.

    Of course the human element matters. Of course morale matters. But you can’t let those concerns override performance. If it were a small difference, sure, let it go. But it isn’t. If Guillen can’t deal with it, then he is the opposite of a veteran leader, he’s a veteran cancer: the worst sort of guy to have on your team. And we had plenty of reason to know that when we signed him. If they give him an extension after his divisive bitching, I’ll be sick.

  33. DrPezz on August 2nd, 2007 10:25 am

    Bringing Jones up could be a great move. We just have to wait and see. Anyone remember the impact of Bob Wolcott in ’95? You just never know how an injection of youth could spark a club.

  34. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 10:26 am

    I think Guillen’s attitude is more one of skepticism than rejection. Bat .270, get on at .330, slug .430, and Jones’ll get accepted.

  35. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 10:26 am

    Personally, I don’t think “easing him in” is the right thing to do, and you’re going to have to give me a lot better reason than assuaging Jose Guillen’s (or whoever’s) ego before I’m going to be convinced otherwise.

    He should be the starting everyday left fielder as soon as he comes up. That is what gives the team the best chance to win baseball games, and isn’t that supposed to be the goal?

  36. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 10:27 am

    This is why the Mariners win despite the very very small run advantage over their opponents…

    So how do they do it? Well…
    Relief Pitching: 1.30 WHIP (5th), 3.61 ERA (5th)
    Not only that, but in close and late situation, opponents are only batting .223.
    They’re batting .282 in close and late situations, a full 11 points above the next best team.
    So what does that mean? Late in the game, the Mariners can come back from behind and win.
    They also rank 3rd in save opportunities and convert about 3/4 of them. And after 8 innings, it’s as good as over.
    All of these have allowed the Mariners to win a lot of close games.
    But they’ve still only scored 9 more runs than their opponents!
    Yeah. Jeff Weaver and Ryan Feierabend. Feierabend has given up 32 runs in just 7 starts, and Weaver started off the season with a hideous ERA even after many starts. Lots of runs, but only a few losses. So there, there’s a ton of HQS (horrible quality starts) where we had no chance to win, but gave up a lot of runs.
    Tonight is another HQS night. So what if the Ms haven’t scored any runs? That’s going to give us just 1 more loss and at least 7 more runs against.

  37. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 10:29 am

    “With a +2 run differential the M’s are 12 games over .500. How can that be explained?–chemistry is one possibility.”

    It’s explained by the fact that we have two starters with 6.00+ ERAs who have had some very bad starts this year. It also highlights that this is a team that can’t rest on its laurels and needs to get better. Jones won’t make our rotation any more consistent but he can potentially help improve that run differential with his bat and glove.

  38. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 10:29 am

    That was using slightly old numbers, by the way, I copypasta’d that from another post I made yesterday.

    On the topic of Adam Jones… I think it’s ok that Guillen is skeptical. It’s not like he’ll be angry with AJ in the dugout or anything. I think that they’ll probably get along fine. I predict that AJ will get a big hit in the first 3 or so games he enters, and immediately be considered to have never disrupted the chemistry.

  39. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 10:34 am

    It’s not like he’ll be angry with AJ in the dugout or anything.

    I disagree. Guys who mouth off like this about new guys are exactly the sort who are assholes to them directly, too.

    I’m not worried for Jones. He’s good enouogh, and he’ll show it, given a chance. I’m worried about the effects of Guillen’s surliness on the team as a whole. He’s demonstrated his ability to be a clubhouse cancer before. You think the Angels want him back?

  40. pygmalion on August 2nd, 2007 10:35 am

    29 I argued the same in a game post a long while back and not everyone was convinced, although there was data to support the fact that the M’s have had WORSE blowouts than other teams. I think that there may be another factor however: the M’s don’t win many blowouts. The offense just doesn’t seem to produce big clusters of runs in the way you would expect given the actual quality of the bats. Why?

    My thought is that this goes back to the M’s inability to lay off of bad pitches and resultant inability to tee off of replacement level or even sub-replacement level talent. They have beat up some good pitchers but of course good pitchers aren’t going to give up, what, 10 runs in a game, even if you are hitting them hard. The guys you should score a bunch off skate by thanks to the M’s hitters inability to lay off of bad pitches. Unfortunately – since any pitcher can throw wildly if he wishes – this is a pretty big weakness for the offense to have. But at any rate it provides another possible influence on the M’s run differential.

  41. Pete on August 2nd, 2007 10:36 am

    DMZ -

    Will we see Adam Jones tonight at the USSM shindig? Or has he swung his last bat in Tacoma, and will be making preparations for Friday?

  42. quickkick87 on August 2nd, 2007 10:36 am

    Do you guys think we’ll actually get to see AJ on Friday? I’d love to be able to give him a huge standing O and a “Welcome Home Adam” sign in this series opener…

  43. arbeck on August 2nd, 2007 10:43 am

    They took him out of last nights game in the 6th, so I imagine he’s already left Tacoma.

  44. dw on August 2nd, 2007 10:44 am

    In the 4th last night Ibanez totally misplayed a ball that Jones would have been able to catch. That runner came around to score.

    Take that runner away and Matthews Jr’s HR makes it 7-6, and the bullpen wouldn’t have been needed, and everyone could have gone home earlier.

  45. Tek Jansen on August 2nd, 2007 10:47 am

    I would not worry about Guillen’s statements. Nor do I think that Mac or Bavasi are shocked that Guillen made them. They know his history. Unless his attitude turns completely sour and he becomes detrimental to the team, Guillen’s statement of support for Ellison and his other teammates won’t harm the team.

  46. vern on August 2nd, 2007 10:48 am

    This is what old guys do…they bitch about new guys. Jones can take it, and he’ll have the complete rookie experience. Raul is a gentlemen and a professional. I predict he will go out of his way for Jones. That is why it is tough to see his skills decline. He is a great guy.

  47. Tek Jansen on August 2nd, 2007 10:48 am

    #44 – Also, if Yuni makes the play in the top of the 9th, Matthews never bats. Granted, it was a tough one, but one of which he is capable of making. That’s baseball.

  48. Howard on August 2nd, 2007 10:53 am

    #28,

    That’s a scary thought.
    I wonder if there’s a chance they put him in right field… Given McLaren’s obsession with sticking with his players, I wouldn’t put it past him.

    Expecially since Ibanez has become Mr. Mariner. (Someone please explain to me how this happened??)

  49. dw on August 2nd, 2007 10:57 am

    #44 – Also, if Yuni makes the play in the top of the 9th, Matthews never bats. Granted, it was a tough one, but one of which he is capable of making. That’s baseball.

    True, but the point I was making was that Ibanez is getting older and slower in the OF, and Jones would immediately give defensive help. Betancourt should have made that play, but it’s not like we have Ozzie Smith Jr being held up in Tacoma by “veteran leadership.”

    IOW, the M’s could have helped themselves by playing Jones last night.

  50. agingfan on August 2nd, 2007 11:02 am

    There is a reason why despite his talent Guillen has never stuck with a team for any length of time. This is an example. And yeah, I’ve also been in management and a hostile working environment is no way to help people succeed. Jones is coming into a high pressure situation and his job just got tougher. People are not automata who can be relied upon not to let psychological issues affect performance. Veteran leadership may be unquantifiable, but this is the point where some estabvished veteran like Beltre has to step in and cool things down.

  51. JeffS on August 2nd, 2007 11:02 am

    I am curious how they are going to use Jones. Knowing how the team usually works, I am expecting him to start only against lefties and act as a defensive replacement on the days Raul starts.

  52. Gregor on August 2nd, 2007 11:02 am

    #49: Wasn’t Ozzie Smith Jr on American Idol a couple of years ago?

  53. Jim Thomsen on August 2nd, 2007 11:03 am

    Guillen’s way doesn’t have to be the only way. As I posted in last night’s game thread, Sammy Sosa was told yesterday that he was going to be losing playing time to the kids in Texas, and he accepted it with a lot of grace.

  54. Gregor on August 2nd, 2007 11:05 am

    #50: I don’t see this nearly as dramatic. I am sure that these things have been said by veterans, for better or for worse, since baseball became a professional sport. The only difference is that in the age of blogs, we fans are more likely to hear about them.

  55. Uncle Ted on August 2nd, 2007 11:08 am

    36- That’s part of it. Having two pitchers in your rotation who give up tons of runs with three who pitch competently can make your team break close to even in runs even though more often than not you are in a position to win the game.

  56. agingfan on August 2nd, 2007 11:11 am

    #54
    Possibly, but in the discussion of the Washington Post baseball writer today online, Guillen’s name came up, and the reporter said that Guillen, who he actually likes, has a tendency to go over the top. When the Angels dumped him, there was open celebration by players and management. Maybe the difference is is that Guillen is saying this to a reporter and allowing it to be quoted and thus turning it into a public problem.

  57. chi sf on August 2nd, 2007 11:12 am

    Maybe Guillen knows his line against right handed pitchers this year is .250/.316/.364. In 280 ABs. He should be worried.

  58. Slippery Elmer on August 2nd, 2007 11:13 am

    Please don’t jump on me, I’m genuinely curious. A lot of opinions on the subject of team chemistry are thrown around here; I’d just like to know if anyone can truly speak from experience, or whether it’s just speculation. Has anyone here played Major League baseball before? If so, can you give us an insider’s perspective of the effect “chemistry” has on a team? If not, how can anyone really claim to know how it effects a clubhouse?

  59. Slippery Elmer on August 2nd, 2007 11:14 am

    affects

  60. Paul B on August 2nd, 2007 11:16 am

    Is Guillen worried that AJ is going to cut into his playing time or something? If so, someone should take him aside and put his mind at ease. There’s at least 2 other players on the roster who should have greater worries about their playing time than Guillen.

    Guillen versus LHP: .396-.476-.670
    Guillen versus RHP: .250-.316-.364

    Career his splits are very close together. So is this season small sample size theater, or something real?

    I’d say he does face the prospect of losing some playing time against righties.

  61. yofarbs on August 2nd, 2007 11:18 am

    Will Ichiro still make out-of-zone plays with AJ over there?

  62. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 11:20 am

    53- The Rangers are not in a playoff race.

  63. AuburnM on August 2nd, 2007 11:24 am

    It doesn’t matter what any of us think. None of us are in the locker room. None of us know these guys personally. None of us know what effect this will have on the morale of the team.

  64. Paul B on August 2nd, 2007 11:25 am

    62 – which explains the decision to give some of Sosa’s at bats to kids. But that doesn’t make it less disappointing to Sosa.

  65. Lauren, token chick on August 2nd, 2007 11:25 am

    Yeah this quote from Guillen doesn’t really sound like a big deal. In fact, it’s been pretty clearly reported that Guillen is quite happy here compared with previous situations, so I don’t really have too much fear of him becoming a “clubhouse cancer” because some young guy comes up. I think folks are making Rainier out of Queen Anne. (check my local cred!!!)

  66. bigdad03 on August 2nd, 2007 11:29 am

    The old adage “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” is what drove the American auto industry into the dumper while the Japanese swept right passed them in the 70′s and 80′s. Why? Because they took the attitude of “always look for ways to improve” instead.

    No team or business that sits on it’s laurels will ever win anything. The only way to insure success now or in the future is to seek improvement constantly.

    Adam Jones will be an improvement defensively for sure.

  67. johnnymac on August 2nd, 2007 11:30 am

    I think AJ’s bat and glove will speak for him…or at least it should. He’s getting the call to HELP the team and any vet who’s po’d should either step up his play or shut up…GO M’s!!!

  68. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 11:33 am

    What’s going to happen if this affects “team chemistry”, anyway?

    Is Turbo going to start running even slower? Is Richie Sexson going to strike out even harder?

    If you don’t want to be replaced by a younger player, PLAY BETTER.

  69. argh on August 2nd, 2007 11:33 am

    On the issue of chemistry, grit and all the intangibles:

    “In war, the morale is to the material as three to one”

    ~Napoleon I, Penseés

    Of course, he lost his armies, the war, his imperial throne and died in exile so perhaps he shouldn’t be relied upon too heavily.

  70. Sec 108 on August 2nd, 2007 11:34 am

    Lauren, maybe this is being overblown, but I doubt it will become Denny Hill anytime soon.

  71. firova2 on August 2nd, 2007 11:35 am

    I don’t know what the big deal about moving Ibanez out of the field is. He may not have liked it, but as recently as 2005 he spent 101 games as the DH for this team with only 54 left field starts, 3 in right and 4 at first base. That year he went .280/.355/.486, numbers we’d love to see from the DH spot. He also stayed healthy that year, and this year he clearly hasn’t been, from the shoulder coming out of spring training to the hammy since. Too much tiptoeing around by the club on this issue.

  72. firova2 on August 2nd, 2007 11:36 am

    69. Yeah, morale was sky-high . . . just before Waterloo.

  73. vin on August 2nd, 2007 11:36 am

    I gotta agree with Lauren. If this quote was coming from say, Vidro or Ibanez I’d be more worried since they are the ones (who should be) losing actual playing time.

  74. DC_Mariner on August 2nd, 2007 11:38 am

    #58

    I played four years of D1 college basketball and I can tell you that chemistry has a huge effect on team play. That said, basketball is much more team oriented than baseball in the sense that you have more individual match-ups in baseball. I’ve been in important situations where we had to count on a freshman to perform well, and it’s tough as an older player to place your trust in that young player. Chemistry is a tough thing for a coach to get a handle on, but it is one of the most important. Success can be achieved without chemistry, but I can quantify how much easier success comes when there is good chemistry. At least, in my experience. But thats not baseball so take it with a large grain of salt

  75. erich39 on August 2nd, 2007 11:40 am

    65- I live in QA, and would like to let you know that, in fact, we do have quite a bit of moles here.

  76. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 11:46 am

    A lot of opinions on the subject of team chemistry are thrown around here;

    “Team Chemistry” is a lot like having a “genius for a manager.” Mostly they are the result of winning and not the cause of it.

    There are other similarities. Both Chemistry and Managers have asymetrical impact on winning. It’s easier for “bad” to subtract wins that for “good” to add them.

    You hear lots of stories about winning clubs having great chemistry (2001 M’s for example), other stories about overachieving winning clubs having good chemsitry (2007 M’s for example) and occasional stories about winning clubs having terrible chemistry (the Reggie Jackson A’s for example), but you never hear about a lousy clubs having average seasons because of good chemistry (“boy, those Pirates don’t have any talent. Good thing they have good chemistry or they’d finish with 40 wins on the year…”).

  77. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 11:48 am

    “This is what old guys do…they bitch about new guys.”

    So true. I remember when Edgar Martinez was near the end… how he would publicly bad mouth any attempt to threaten his job. How he would make everyone around him as uncomfortable as possible under the guise of “speaking his mind.” God, that guys was an a@%^*&#*.

    Seriously, Guillen is exactly the kind of guy that cold make life really hard for a rookie that doesn’t need distractions. I’m not talking about razing, I’m talking about a raging ass**** that is on your case in a nearly psychotic manner.

    I watched this guys antics in Los Angeles, and the guy has zero class. I’m not a team chemistry guy at all, but having a guy attacking you or calling you out, or raging at the manager to not play you (all happened before with Jose) could be jarring to a kid who comes in with no standing.

    Honestly, if it was one of the other veterans saying this,it might have rolled off my back. With Guillen it’s like a tornado warning… just a signal to be alert.

    The worst part of all of it is the idea that reactions like his had anything at all to do with the delay bringing AJ up… thus making the reactions worse and the pressure higher.

    I personally hope they don’t resign Jose to a multiyear deal.

  78. Sec 108 on August 2nd, 2007 11:48 am

    74- Clearly you played D1 a long time ago. Now Freshman are the stars of the team and Seniors are preparing for jobs in the real world. Sorry, just having some fun with you.

    I will say this about baseball, especially at the Major League level. It is a sport of cliques. Starting pitchers hang out together, bullpen guys hang out, Latin Americans hang together, Midwesterners hang together, etc… When Broussard and Yuni had the mishap in short left recently, Ben commented that he was unable to even ask Yuni about the play because he “Cannot really talk to him.” This may be a translation issue, but it sounds like the great Mariner team chemistry experiment does not mean all 25 guys are some tight knit bunch.

  79. Bernoulli on August 2nd, 2007 11:50 am

    The chemistry issue comes down to anecdotal evidence, and it gets a little repetitive. We’re rehashing the same platitudes that the radio hacks are providing, without any effort to prove anything. We can all agree that morale has some effect on team performance: what we fail to agree upon, and what we can’t find any evidence to support, is whether it’s 1% of the equation or 99%. If Napoleon were still alive we might have asked him how he got that three-to-one ratio, but I’m guessing it was a gut call.

    So let’s do some work, friends. Let’s crunch some numbers. What kind of statistical revelations can we provide for the argument? Can we find the records of teams who made major lineup changes after August 1st and compare them to their prior record? It’s hardly concrete proof, but the results might be interesting.

    I have a feeling (unsubstantiated at this point) that a few clubhouse disasters have amplified the effect of chemistry in general. It’d be interesting to see, though.

  80. DizzleChizzle on August 2nd, 2007 11:51 am

    Screw Guillen. If he thinks that they can do it with the 13 they have right now then he’s living on another planet. They’ve trailed the Angels all year long and nothing they’ve done in the past 4 months would lead me to believe that they can take control of the AL west. I don’t see them winning a 4 way battle for the wildcard with the Yankees, Tiger, and Indians. Our rotation is rag tag and in the long run I believe the pitchers will be grateful to have Jones playing in LF. Screw Guillen.

  81. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 11:53 am

    If chemistry and morale and none of that matter why are people bitching about Guillen’s comments?

    It all depends on how Adam Jones plays when he gets up.

  82. vin on August 2nd, 2007 11:56 am

    The real question is: will AJ have a fantasy impact? I stashed him on my roster just in case.

  83. Greg08 on August 2nd, 2007 11:57 am

    Easy fix to the problem –
    call up Wlad Balentein too!!

  84. wallywwu on August 2nd, 2007 11:59 am

    My take on the whole team chemistry issue is this:

    In basketball and football I would say chemistry matters a lot because on every play you are relying on other people to help you do your job, and then there is the whole concept of playing harder for your teammates where over a 48 minute basketball game or 60 minute football this can be important where it can be easy to take 4 or 5 minutes or a play here and there and not give 100% because you are a little tired or just not focused.

    However, the game of baseball is the most individual team sport you can possibly have and you truly only have to be focused 4 or 5 times during your at-bats, if you can’t be focused and motivated for 10 minutes during a 3 hour baseball then you don’t belong in the majors. And unlike basketball or football where there are different ways to help your team, like a set good screens for a shooter to get open looks, in baseball the only way to help your team is to perform as an individual (I always laugh when people say Alex Rodriguez isn’t a winner for that reason).

    My main point is that in baseball you can have 9 guys who hate each other and it really shouldn’t affect how the team does because if everyone has their best self-interest in mind, then they will be doing all they can for the team. Let’s say Jose Guillen and Jose Vidro are best friends – are you saying that if Vidro gets benched for Adam Jones that Guillen isn’t going to try as hard during his at-bats or not get as good of a jump on a fly ball in the outfield? There is no way that is even in his mind. The only counter argument to mine that I can really think of is that maybe guys will be upset and then not prepare before the game as hard as they would before, but even this is unlikely.

    Now I’m not a robot and I realize that every sport has a little bit of emotion involved; however, in baseball this matters so much less than other sports that not bringing up Jones to save team chemistry is just plain stupid

  85. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 12:00 pm

    I played four years of D1 college basketball and I can tell you that chemistry has a huge effect on team play

    But college ball isn’t pro ball. Chemistry, “clutch” and a bunch of other things we mere mortals extrapolate from everyday life into pro sports really don’t apply. Pro athletes are not like you and me.

    My Junior year in High School our basketball team went undefeated. Off to Sectionals we go, facing a team we should have wiped the floor with. But our star Forward spent the night before the game throwing up because he was so nervous. He stunk all game, bricked two free-throws at the end and we were eliminated. He choked. He didn’t go on to play pro ball even though he was very talented. He wasn’t “clutch.” On this site, we generally dismiss the idea of players being “clutch” saying there’s no such thing. Probably a more accurate statement would be that “clutch” does indeed exist, but every Big Leaguer is clutch or they wouldn’t make it to the show. Every ML at-bat is a pressure situation. Guys who would fold under the pressure of a World Series game would fold under the pressure of fighting for a roster spot in Spring Training.

    Likewise chemistry. Most of what we think of as On-the-Job chemistry is about focus, motivation and learning (workplaces with “good chemjistry” are places where everyone is motivated to do their best, focused on their jobs and not worried about whether everyone else will do theirs, interested in self-improvmeent, etc.). Pro athletes are so far off the right side of the bell curve on focus motivateion and self-improvmenet that the rules of the normal world just don’t apply.

  86. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 12:01 pm

    81 – First of all, Jones should not have the pressure of performing immediately, like you indicate.

    Second, to answer your question… look for the irony.

    And why is “chemistry” the only reason to be against Jose’s comments? I think it’s low class, sings of future problems and can put some overbearing pressure on a kid getting a shot.

    A rookie coming up isn’t going to hurt the team. If a hothead like Jose breaks his arm with a barbell… that hurts the team.

  87. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 12:04 pm

    Pro athletes are so far off the right side of the bell curve on focus motivateion…

    They’re also off the curve on motivation as well as motivateion.

  88. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 12:06 pm

    If chemistry and morale and none of that matter why are people bitching about Guillen’s comments?

    Which of the people bitching about Guillen’s comments said chemistry and morale didn’t matter?

  89. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 12:07 pm

    86- Where in the hell in Guillen’s comments do you get he wants to hurt Adam Jones? He said he didn’t understand the move and Jones needs to prove himself that is all!!

  90. firova2 on August 2nd, 2007 12:07 pm

    I gave Raul and extra 50 slugging points in 2005 on above post. I do think there was a handshake agreement with Bavasi and Hargrove that Ibanez would no longer be an everyday DH when he signed the extension in 2006. If you think about it, Raul’s reluctance to be the new Edgar (despite chronically bad hamstrings) kind of led to some bad Bavasi deals. Carl Everett came in 2006, then the Vidro trade in 2007. I hope Raul is willing to cede some outfield time to Jones for the good of the team. The fourth inning last night demonstrated why he needs to. And what’s the shame in DHing at age 35?

  91. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 12:10 pm

    no other team, contender or not, has a player like Jones in the minors. Any comparable prospect this year on any team has been called up.

    DMZ, I was going to take minor exception to this and mention Justin Upton, but it appears he just got called up as well. Do you see him as being on Jones’ level? I know he’s an even higher-touted prospect than Jones, but he’s so young.

  92. firova2 on August 2nd, 2007 12:10 pm

    Oh, and Raul’s reluctance to DH also was partially responsible for stalling Jones this year. At least the conspiratorial mind might think so.

    I just want to hear one of these veterans step up and say, “I’ll do whatever it takes to help the team, even if it means DHing or playing less. You can count on me.”

  93. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 12:13 pm

    89 – Are you talking about the breaking the arm with the barbell joke?? Did you think that was literal?

    And have you followed Guillen’s career?

    Read my post #77. I said his comments were detected by my sophisticated Guillen Early Warning System.

    Like I said… his comments were classless, but no big deal… except for it was Guillen who said them, which elevates them to troubling, in my book.

  94. pygmalion on August 2nd, 2007 12:15 pm

    I think that people handle the “chemistry” arguments all wrong. The problem with chemistry is not, in the first instance, that no one can draw a connection between chemistry and stats. It is that it is unclear how it would affect any baseball playing ability at all: hitting, running, catching, throwing. We don’t ask for statistical evidence that eating Wheaties or whatever is better than eating donuts all day. We know that eating donuts all day makes you fat and we know that being fat usually even if not always has a negative impact on these skills.

    It is completely different in something like war, or in football. An army without morale lacks courage; it will not stand to fight. All your other skills are pointless if you lack courage since they will not come into play. No one can seriously doubt the role of morale in war since it is obvious how it affects the outcome. Guys who run are guys who lose.

    So too there is an obvious role for chemistry to play in football, so that even though it is hard to quantify it – just as it is difficult to quantify most things in football – we shouldn’t care. What is this role? Good chemistry makes it easier to endure pain for the sake of someone else who’s going to get the glory, or simply for the sake of the team’s overall glory. But this occurs constantly in football. If there is good “chemistry” between an offensive line and the quarterback and halfback, then the line will have some additional motiviation to endure pain for the sake of the good of the team. We might turn to statistical evidence to determine how much effect this has, but it seems silly to deny that “good chemistry” would affect this at all.

    But there are almost no opportunities for this to happen in baseball. Almost no activity in baseball (a) requires enduring pain (b) for the sake of someone else’s glory. This is why “chemistry” is, in baseball, totally mysterious. No one knows how it could affect hitting, catching, throwing, or running.

    It is the same with trust. Baseball players only very rarely need to trust each other. Football players need to trust each other to execute almost any play, and again, it is pretty apparent how “chemistry” might affect trust; the only question is to what _degree_ this changes outcomes on the field.

  95. Lauren, token chick on August 2nd, 2007 12:15 pm

    Dammit, John, are you going on and on about GEWS again? You are such a bigot.

  96. pygmalion on August 2nd, 2007 12:18 pm

    84 I seem to have ended up repeating a lot of what you wrote!

  97. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 12:19 pm

    92. Broussard was saying that until recently, when it was obvious that him playing more would help the team. What ever happened to Perez? I think he was a great mentor to the young bats.

    I think that the AJ bat in the lineup would more than make up for any lack of chemistry…
    I hope your GEWS is off, because I’d like to see Guillen stick around. It seems like he’s found a team that he likes, and that likes him. It would be a shame to see Guillen go all rambo on us.

  98. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 12:20 pm

    95 – Lauren, I was prepared for that, and I’d just like to point out that the GEWS is merely a retrofit to the original design, the JREWS, the John Rocker Early Warning System. It has also been redesigned over time for Carl Everett (cleverly disguised as a copy of a The Land Before Time DVD so he wouldn’t notice it) and Ryan Leaf (cleverly disguised as an open receiver so he wouldn’t notice it).

  99. kenshabby on August 2nd, 2007 12:22 pm

    Guillen’s comments are inane and totally inappropriate. Cripes, how many other minor league players have been called up this season? Is this some kind of new phenomenon? How many minor league players as good as Jones have been called up?

    Maybe Guillen believes minor leaguers should be called up strictly as injury replacements. Call me kooky, but it seems an established truism in baseball that when a minor league player is tearing it up in AAA he gets called up to help his team out, especially when said team has glaring holes.

    I can’t stand such illogic. What a fool Guillen is.

  100. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 12:23 pm

    97 – You’re right, and I hope it works out that way, too.

  101. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 12:24 pm

    If we sign Guillen to an extension, we’ll be sorry. For performance reasons almost certainly, but for behavioral reasons too, most likely. Guillen’s okay, but he’s not that good, and is readily replaceable; they could replace him right now with Balentien, if they weren’t hung up on Veterans and Kids.

  102. Notor on August 2nd, 2007 12:31 pm

    I think it’s a good thing that Guillen’s a little pissed off about it. And I think he made a point to talk to the media about it for a good reason too:

    To show Raul some respect, because this almost certainly means less playing time for him.

    Guillen probably realizes this was the right move when it comes right down to it, but also realizes the potentially demoralizing effect it’ll have on either Ibanez or Vidro and his statements to the press were meant to keep their morale up by showing that the old vets still have confidence in them even if management doesn’t. Not really a problem in my eyes, and he’s right: AJ has to step up in the majors and perform like he has down there.

  103. Dylan on August 2nd, 2007 12:36 pm

    84 and 94-

    Yup.

  104. gag harbor on August 2nd, 2007 12:37 pm

    It’s misplaced solidarity and it’s not useful to a team of guys trying to be better than other teams of guys.

    If this was a labor dispute (like a labor union), there’s prbably a place in there for solidarity because owners (sports or otherwise) will always try to divide and conquer individuals.

    But this is a team and the team will clearly benefit from a better player like Jones or the threat of being replaced by a better player in the future. It really should be about being the best team, not what a veteran thinks is a comfy place to hang out.

  105. CouchGM on August 2nd, 2007 12:39 pm

    Jones coming up is the right thing. Guillen will benefit from it too.
    Maybe what they need is an “Ellison” moment: Guillen gets into a scuffle and AJ comes to his defense.

  106. Beniitec on August 2nd, 2007 12:40 pm

    The last outspoken loudmouth right fielder this team had basically said screw the wild card…we’re gonna win the pennant. Truth be told, I hope he’s outspoken…the more outspoken he is, the more likely we’ll have leaders emerge in the clubhouse and on the field. It’s about time someone said something that wasn’t all nice and complacent. Let the guy have a little swagger and confidence. It wasn’t at the expense of Jones…he was just sayin…oh yeah? Well this isn’t AAA, so we’ll see. And he questioned the timing…which most of you guys in here already have done…so get over yourselves. Geez… All I’m saying is it’s about time MGMT brought up Jones, and it’s about time someone cared enough about the team to speak up. These are GREAT things my friends…just plain GREAT!

  107. CouchGM on August 2nd, 2007 12:41 pm

    97: What ever happened to Perez?

    Last I saw he was on Baseball Tonight in the Harold Reynoldds chair.

  108. Dayve on August 2nd, 2007 12:42 pm

    Not many tears being shed for Ellison here. I do believe he was a valuable asset on the bench who produced when called upon, much like our dear freind Willie B. I’d rather have seen Raul go on the DL for 15 days and get “healthy” while we see AJ in action. He’s needed the rest for some time and it wouldn’t have upset the chemistry, if that’s indeed what it’s doing.

  109. VaughnStreet on August 2nd, 2007 12:50 pm

    Memo to Jose Guillen: You were 20 years old when you got your chance in the Big Leagues. Now you need to give Adam Jones his. You do your job, let Adam do his. You might even give him a little encouragement. Would that be so hard?

  110. RoninX on August 2nd, 2007 12:52 pm

    “But there are almost no opportunities for this to happen in baseball. Almost no activity in baseball (a) requires enduring pain (b) for the sake of someone else’s glory. This is why “chemistry” is, in baseball, totally mysterious. No one knows how it could affect hitting, catching, throwing, or running.”

    There are few opportunities for it to happen on the field. Though things like working hard to work a count in the early innings so that subsequent batters can get a look at pitches timings etc. and charging a ball that is dropping for what looks like a sure RBI/hit because you know your catcher/1B will be ready if your throw is in time and on a line, come to mind.

    That said individualistic team sports are affected by team chemistry. I was going to labor on with some personal anecdotes – but I find myself unable to elaborate beyond what has been said above and previously regarding the nature of clubhouse chemistry.

    So I did a little looking and found this article on FIREJOEMORGAN.com that discussion the similar “peer effect”:
    http://www.firejoemorgan.com/search/label/chemistry

    The actual research article that the article references can be found here: http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/amas/peersatwork.pdf

    It may have been referenced here before (I know some other readers of this blog view that site as well).

  111. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 12:52 pm

    108. I agree completely. That’s exactly how I wish it was handled. Ellison is a great guy to have on the bench, he can go in as a defensive replacement in the outfield, and can pinch-run. He’s like Willie B, except an outfielder and not quite as good. Ibanez would do some good on the DL, work himself up back to some health. THEN maybe we move Ellison down to AAA until the roster expands.

  112. firova2 on August 2nd, 2007 12:56 pm

    106. What Buhner said and what Guillen said may both qualify as “outspoken,” but the substance of their statements couldn’t be more different.

  113. Donald P. on August 2nd, 2007 12:57 pm

    [see comment guidelines]

  114. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 1:00 pm

    I liked Ellison but I don’t agree that a guy who pinch runs once a week, never pinch hits, and only gets a start every blue moon is a valuable asset. He hasn’t even been used much lately as a ninth inning defensive replacement. Willie B can do all that and more so Ellison was redundant. Hopefully he’ll find a team that can use him more.

  115. Xteve X on August 2nd, 2007 1:01 pm

    Chemistry is one of the most overrated concepts in sports and it’s used more often as a crutch or an excuse than it should be. Team chemistry is a byproduct of the team’s record, not a cause.

    It is very easy to field a team of great guys that all get along together and putter along at or below .500 for the season. Hell, I’ve watched that team for the last few years…

  116. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 1:04 pm

    so get over yourselves

    While there has been a good deal of disagreement, this has been a civil, non-personal conversation. If you can’t disagree without being a jerk, take it to KJR.

  117. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 1:05 pm

    114: The Ms are 6-0 when Ellison starts =P

  118. Beniitec on August 2nd, 2007 1:12 pm

    Sure thing. Just relax is all I’m sayin. Don’t take it as a personal attack. Please forgeev my englich grammer.

  119. JeffS on August 2nd, 2007 1:13 pm

    Thank you, Mr. Ellison, for sticking up for Ichiro and providing the most memorable moment in the season thus far.

    Any word on if he will report to AAA?

  120. Beniitec on August 2nd, 2007 1:13 pm

    Calling someone a jerk is civil?

  121. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 1:13 pm

    “The Ms are 6-0 when Ellison starts =P”

    Maybe so, but other than his 4 hit game against the A’s when he took on Fat Joe Blanton, I can’t think of a game when he made a major contribution to an M’s win. Nothing against Ellison, but he was very dispensible.

  122. dingla on August 2nd, 2007 1:13 pm

    [unintelligible]

  123. Paul B on August 2nd, 2007 1:15 pm

    I just want to hear one of these veterans step up and say, “I’ll do whatever it takes to help the team, even if it means DHing or playing less. You can count on me.”

    Sexson almost said that, or at least he stated that he understood that losing some playing time was totally due to his performance. Which at least is a first step.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/326064_mbok02.html

    “I did this to myself,” he said. “I dug my own grave. This game doesn’t owe you anything. People don’t care about what you’ve done. They only care about what you’re doing.”

  124. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 1:19 pm

    120: Of course not. I was responding in kind, a bad habit of mine.

  125. wcf51 on August 2nd, 2007 1:26 pm

    what do you think are the chances AJ will start on Friday verse Lester?

  126. Bearman on August 2nd, 2007 1:30 pm

    I don’t understand all this worry about how Gullien going to react etc……….. on and on.
    The OFer that has to be worried about his job should be Ibanez NOT Guillen.

    This is why McClaren wouldn’t discuss the plan for Jones on Wedesday after the win.They need today’s day off to square away any problem or problems Ibanez or if if it is Guillen have.

    However my money is on Ibanez losing his everyday LF job and he will be sharing the following slots:
    4thOFer
    DH againist RHP
    PH off bench depending on RP and situation late in games

  127. Bearman on August 2nd, 2007 1:32 pm

    125- The chances are excellent he’ll have his first regular start in LF on Friday and not just againist Lester either.
    He’s going to be the new LFer for the M’s for the remainer of the season and maybe beyond.

  128. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 1:36 pm

    He’s going to be the new LFer for the M’s for the remainer of the season and maybe beyond.

    We don’t know that, unfortunately. I could see him platooning with Ibanez and Guillen, and perhaps playing right field, which we all remember was the original rumor. Fact is, we don’t know. We’ll see what Mac says today or tomorrow.

  129. Dayve on August 2nd, 2007 1:37 pm

    Ellison and Bloomquist are rather redundant, but on a team with speed and defense the likes of Vidro, Sexon, Ibanez, etc., you need some legs out there that can score and who can run down a ball. Both have been used very effectively all season for this purpose. This move bringing AJ in seems to portend another move–getting rid of one of those three perhaps. Ibanez won’t be happy on the bench, Sexon needs to be out there to snap out of his season long slump and Vidro wasn’t brought here to ride pine. It’s not just me and Guillen that think this is kind of an odd move at this point, is it?

  130. Lauren, token chick on August 2nd, 2007 1:37 pm

    Aw, poop. Cleveland won today.

  131. Carson on August 2nd, 2007 1:39 pm

    I’ve been fighting back against the old “chemistry” argument from co-workers and friends for weeks now, as we have waited for this moment. If AJ flops (which, how can he be worse than Ibanez?), I’ll never be able to convert the thinking of some of these people.

    So, go get ‘em Adam. The intelligence of baseball fans relies on you!

  132. MT Mariner on August 2nd, 2007 1:40 pm

    I bet AJ rots on the bench for at least a month, or more.

  133. SequimRealEstate on August 2nd, 2007 1:41 pm

    #84 You said it best.

  134. thefin190 on August 2nd, 2007 1:44 pm

    Adam Jones in the majors!!!!!!!! Hopefully he can prove himself better than Ibanez early on to lock a starting spot in the outfield.

  135. Ace on August 2nd, 2007 1:45 pm

    Despite all the complaining it didn’t really make sense to bring Jones up until now, at least offensively. Until they found more playing time for Broussard, why bring another player into the mix? Now that they have platooned Richie and have a steady reliable stream of ABs lined up for Broussard, now it makes sense to bring up Jones.

    Imagine what it would have done to Broussards attitude toward the team if they brought up Jones and start getting him 15-20 ABs a week while Ben is still on the pine.

  136. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 1:49 pm

    So if a team has two holes, they should only plug one at a time?

    That’s crazy talk. You do as much good as possible at each opportunity.

  137. tgf on August 2nd, 2007 1:50 pm

    Imagine what it would have done to Broussards attitude toward the team if they brought up Jones and start getting him 15-20 ABs a week while Ben is still on the pine.

    If Broussard were an asset in the outfield, that would be a fair point, but he’s not. Broussard getting ABs at first? Great! But it has nothing to do with Jones.

  138. tgf on August 2nd, 2007 1:51 pm

    Uh, what he said.

  139. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 1:53 pm

    Sexon needs to be out there to snap out of his season long slump and Vidro wasn’t brought here to ride pine.

    I’ve been trying hard to avoid the dogpile on Richie, but it’s about time we ask ourselves if it’s not a slump. This might just be what Sexson is now in his career. He’s an “old player skills” type of dude, so he can’t be expected to age well.

    And what Vidro was brought here to do is irrelevant. This is a team in a pennant race. The Mariners can’t just parade inneffective veterans out there every day because of their last names. Look at how badly Biggio has hurt Houston this year.

    We can’t just point back at what the plan was in March and refuse to alter it because “that was the plan.” Things change. It’s the old cliche, “that’s why they play the games.” Humans are unpredictable, and of course they have feelings. But the Mariners front office shouldn’t be in the business of ego-massaging. Its job is to put together a winning ballclub. Today they took a positive step toward that.

  140. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 1:55 pm

    Jose Vidro and Richie Sexson will both be out of baseball in a few years.

    I don’t care what they’ve done in the past; if they are blocking better players, they need to be on the bench.

    The more times it is brought up, the less I can bring myself to care about “team chemistry”.

  141. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 1:59 pm

    What I really want to see is a Vidro trade. Think about this.
    We could get a great AAA pitching prospect or two if we trade Vidro to a contending team. He’s hot right now, and we could sell high.
    In return, it lets Ibanez get the at bats we want, while not having to worry about playing the field.
    It gives us a better defensive LF, and a power bat in the lineup to replace yet another single hitter.
    What’s not to like about that?

  142. smb on August 2nd, 2007 2:01 pm

    I am now dumber for having read the discussion on this thread. Bench Raul, bench Richie…if I never hear “Team Chemistry” again, it’ll be too soon.

  143. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 2:01 pm

    We could get a great AAA pitching prospect or two if we trade Vidro to a contending team. He’s hot right now, and we could sell high.

    You’re dreaming, man. Sure, he’d clear waivers, and that’s for a very good reason: he’s not very good and he’s highly overpaid.

    I guess maybe we could trade him to the Pirates.

  144. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 2:01 pm

    We aren’t getting anything of value for Jose Vidro, his current “hot streak” notwithstanding.

    We might get a bag of baseballs.

  145. bigdad03 on August 2nd, 2007 2:02 pm

    Listen, guys (and gals), we can all just relax about this whole “team chemistry” issue. The way I see it happening is Jones will have a positive impact on a game very soon. Maybe a game saving catch or a game winning hit.

    Then when he’s being interviewed by Fox afterwards, JJ will hit him in the face with a shaving cream pie and his indoctrination will be complete.

    JJ is one of the main reasons for “team chemistry” in case none of you have noticed. Ask yourself how many times you’ve seen someone really show serious emotion after a big win. Until last night, JJ was the one guy who I could count on for a little fist pumping.

    This team will be fine once Jones has been here and had a chance to contribute. I doubt there’s anyone out there who wants to prove himself more than Jones himself.

  146. wallywwu on August 2nd, 2007 2:04 pm

    It doesn’t make sense to have two players like Willie and Ellison on the same roster in the American League. It is fine in the National League where you have to pinch hit more often due to the pitcher, but in the AL how many times do you really even need to use your bench in an average game?

  147. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 2:06 pm

    144: You don’t think a hot-hitting DH is worth a minor league pitcher

  148. msb on August 2nd, 2007 2:06 pm

    Baker updated his blog around noon with a few comments about Guillen’s comments

  149. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 2:07 pm

    I rag on the guy a lot, but I have to give props to Willie for being quiet and accepting his role this year.

    He /does/ add value to the team as long as he is realistic about his own skills as a player, and he’s done a really good job not being a distraction this year.

  150. msb on August 2nd, 2007 2:08 pm

    You don’t think a hot-hitting DH is worth a minor league pitcher

    to any other team he isn’t a DH, hot-hitting or no. He might be a hot-hitting 2nd baseman, if he could still play 2nd on a regular basis ….

  151. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 2:08 pm

    You don’t think a hot-hitting DH is worth a minor league pitcher

    It might be worth it, if the Mariners were in possession of a hot-hitting DH.

  152. Ace on August 2nd, 2007 2:09 pm

    DMZ,
    Thats not what I said. They are basically plugging both holes at the same time. But Jones shouldn’t have been higher up the priority list than Ben, so he had to wait until they got him some at bats. I don’t think anyone is going to try to make the case that at this point in their careers that Jones is a better hitter than Ben. If the problem was that they were having trouble hitting left handed pitching, maybe, but that hasn’t been the issue. The case was certainly better for Jones defensivly, but that was going to be a consideration, not the driving factor. Raul is/was bad, but a substandard left fielder is not going to have the same impact on the game as a bad infielder or catcher, or for that matter as much as a bad center or rightfielder either.

  153. Rusty on August 2nd, 2007 2:11 pm

    Uhhh… wouldn’t Adam have went through his rookie hazing last year?

  154. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 2:11 pm

    So if a team has two holes, they should only plug one at a time?

    Or maybe plug none at a time while you give the new captian a few weeks to “settle in.”

  155. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 2:12 pm

    Ask yourself how many times you’ve seen someone really show serious emotion after a big win.

    The only thing I think fans overrate more than chemistry is showing emotion. There are many ways to lead. Sometimes the unflappable steady guys are the ones that everyone follows. Tim Duncan and Larry Bird aren’t fiery rah-rah guys, and they led their teams to a few championships.

  156. Rusty on August 2nd, 2007 2:13 pm

    Ace:
    I don’t think anyone is going to try to make the case that at this point in their careers that Jones is a better hitter than Ben.

    I need to get some popcorn. This should be fun.

  157. planB on August 2nd, 2007 2:14 pm

    144: You don’t think a hot-hitting DH is worth a minor league pitcher

    No. “Hot-hitting DH” is only accurate because Vidro is on the M’s roster. Nobody else wants a no-power no-speed hitter at full-time DH.

  158. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 2:18 pm

    A few things, Ace:

    When you play half of your games in Safeco Field, left field is a premium defensive position. It’s only really behind CF and SS (arguably 3B, but I don’t think so personally) due to the way the park is constructed. So having Ibanez’s poor fielding in LF has been harming the team substantially for a while.

    Also, I don’t see Broussard and Jones being in competition for at-bats. Broussard and Sexson will platoon at first, Ibanez and Vidro will platoon at DH, and Jones will have left field to himself.

    At least, that’s what SHOULD happen.

  159. RoninX on August 2nd, 2007 2:20 pm

    155 –

    By all account Bird was a very fiery teammate behind closed doors, but your point is a good one.

  160. Colm on August 2nd, 2007 2:26 pm

    lailaihei:
    “We could get a great AAA pitching prospect or two if we trade Vidro to a contending team.”
    Do you really believe that’s true? Because it has no basis in reality.

    When was the last time that you can remember that any team flipped two good young pitchers for one declining veteran?

    I doubt if we could trade Ichiro for two great AAA pitching prospects, much less our slap-hitting, slow-footed DH.

  161. Red Apple on August 2nd, 2007 2:28 pm

    You don’t think a hot-hitting DH is worth a minor league pitcher.

    Let’s see…no power, he’s a DH, and prone to GIDP. Oh, and he’ll make $8.5 million next year on top of the more than $2.5 million remaining that he’ll be paid this year.

    What’s not to love?

  162. lailaihei on August 2nd, 2007 2:28 pm

    160 and others: Damn, sorry, I forgot that we have Bavasi and other teams don’t. I must be out of my mind. I really think Vidro is unnecessary, though. I’d be happy trading him for a AA pitcher.

  163. Colm on August 2nd, 2007 2:29 pm

    Most of us would be happy trading him for a lemonade pitcher.

  164. Zero Gravitas on August 2nd, 2007 2:32 pm

    I’m annoyed not just by Guillen, but what seems to be a prevalent attitude on the team that they have proved themselves to the point where the roster should not even be tinkered with. The local radio hacks have been asking this question of every guy on the team over the past week. I have aready heard Bloomquist, Vidro and Putz (today) all making the same argument that there’s nowhere to put AJ because the team is playing so well. Guillen may be putting more of a vitriolic spin on it, but this team seems to be pretty pleased with themselves, considering they just lost 7 straight, have not held down the lead for a playoff spot all year, and are something like 4-8 against their division leader this year. Thank god management finally did its job and made the move. Took long enough.

  165. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 2:33 pm

    160 and others: Damn, sorry, I forgot that we have Bavasi and other teams don’t. I must be out of my mind. I really think Vidro is unnecessary, though. I’d be happy trading him for a AA pitcher.

    Bavasi has nothing to do with it; NOBODY, not Beane, not Cashman, not the greatest GM that ever lived, would be able to trade Vidro for what you think you could.

  166. msb on August 2nd, 2007 2:34 pm

    yum, lemonade.

  167. revbill on August 2nd, 2007 2:34 pm

    For a reasonable guy who isn’t afraid to rethink his position on things, Baker seems a little too hung up on the idea that the Mariners screwed their season by not trading for an 8th inning setup pitcher. Maybe he needs to take a few deep breaths and not read the blog comments for a couple of days.

  168. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 2:41 pm

    167: I’ve found that I often have to take a few deep breaths and not read the blog comments on Baker’s blog.

  169. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 2:42 pm

    Vidro has no trade value. He’ll probably be splitting the DH with Ibanez who will hopefully regain some bat speed and pop if given some rest. Jones needs to be an everyday outfielder.

  170. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 2:45 pm

    Meanwhile, the Connecticut Press headlines today note that the Yankees lost to the White Sox, the Indians won, the D-Backs called up their top prospect who was hitting .310 in AA ball, the Royal’s manager is going to retire (conventionally, at the end of the season), Johan Santana is unhappy with Twins’ management, and Bud Selig won’t be at Barry Bond’s next game.

    Wow, it’s an exciting world of sports out there! I wonder what it would be like to root for a team that did something worth a national headline?

  171. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 2:46 pm

    Seriously, I wish just one person in the media would ask a player: If we’re good enough right now and don’t need to improve, why have we not been in a playoff spot all year? It’s certainly not because of injuries; the Mariners have been one of the healthiest teams in the league*.

    *I don’t have evidence to back this up, but I’ll bet it’s true.

  172. DizzleChizzle on August 2nd, 2007 2:48 pm

    164 If what you say is true than Mac better call a team meeting and tell these guys to STFU. They’re not in the playoff and they’re not I didn’t know people actually cared about Bloomquist’s opinion??? He should just be glad that he wasn’t DFAed instead of Ellison.

  173. DizzleChizzle on August 2nd, 2007 2:50 pm

    172 Please omit “They’re not in the playoff and they’re not” from my last post. I was trying to respond to another post.

  174. Lauren, token chick on August 2nd, 2007 2:51 pm

    Dizzle: Personally, I’m hoping McLaren has a better social style going for him than JeffS.

  175. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 2:54 pm

    Lauren, yes.

    I think I’ve seen the abbreviation STFU more in the past four days than ever before in my life.

  176. Shizane on August 2nd, 2007 2:59 pm

    Hey, I know a lot of people are saying, “yeah, no one wants Vidro because of his contract”…..etc

    No one really wanted Matt Morris, yet the Pirates picked up HIS ENTIRE CONTRACT!

    It’s possible…….but unlikely.

  177. DizzleChizzle on August 2nd, 2007 3:00 pm

    174 I’m sure JeffS will find that funny :)

    No I didn’t mean for Mac to say it quite in that tone. He needs to tell these guys to stop complaining to the media. Last time I checked the players don’t run this team and the players don’t make the decisions. I’m sure they’re loving the team chemistry but it’s blinded them from realizing the areas that they need to improve in.

  178. Wood Dog on August 2nd, 2007 3:01 pm

    I just can’t wait to see it when Guillen explodes… you KNOW it’s coming. This guys is a player, but he’s also a time bomb. He obviously doesn’t agree with the Jones call up, and he’s starting to speak negatively about the management. This is the first sign. I’d say we are one minor event from gatorade coolers being thrown in the dug out. Maybe a bad strike call? Maybe AJ booting a routine ball in left field? It will happen. just you wait.

  179. Steve T on August 2nd, 2007 3:01 pm

    If chemistry exists, it will show up in the stats. If a guy gets a hit because he’s clutch and is really gunning for the team, that hit shows up in the box score just like all the others. Looking for it elsewhere is silly.

  180. Bearman on August 2nd, 2007 3:03 pm

    169 – I agree Vidro has no trade value however that’s strictly on a him alone basis.Vidro’s does have value as a throwin with cash consideration maybe on the right waiver wire deal.

    I also agree that the best move now that Jones has been finally called up is to put him as the regular LFER.
    Platoon at DH Ibanez mainly againist RHPing and pretty much limit his field time to shared 4thOFer duty along with PH off the bench depending on RP or situation.

    170 – It alway good news to this guy when the evil empire loses a game just the thought of what it does to Steinbrunner warms my heart.

    Hey If the M’s had a AA prospect hitting that good and nothing AAA matched him I’d call him up too so the move by the D-Backs doesn’t surprise me.

    Bell announcing his resignation is no surprise a guy can just stand just so much losing but I tend to accept his reasoning as I did Hargrove’s.

    Johan Santana’s dispute with his FO doesn’t surprise me with the lack of moves at the deadline.
    Now add in all the rumors that the Twins only have the cash to offer either him or Hunter an extension contract.t
    The word is getting more and more that the FO is leaning toward Hunter not him.

    I will givew Selig credit he’s done his best to put a good face on the whole Bonds breaking Aarons HR record etc……
    Unfortunately as the Commissioner he doesn’t have the luxury Aaron does of not attending the big event.

  181. Pete on August 2nd, 2007 3:04 pm

    Hey scraps,

    The M’s had their ace out one month and their 4th and 5th starters out for about 6 weeks each, so that’s some pretty bad damage to the starting rotation.

    But on the whole, you are absolutely right — there hasn’t really been many injuries to the offense or the bullpen.

  182. Wood Dog on August 2nd, 2007 3:06 pm

    Yeah, bullpen’s been healthly… except for Lowe and Reitsma.

  183. MarinerDan on August 2nd, 2007 3:19 pm

    just can’t wait to see it when Guillen explodes… you KNOW it’s coming. This guys is a player, but he’s also a time bomb. He obviously doesn’t agree with the Jones call up, and he’s starting to speak negatively about the management. This is the first sign. I’d say we are one minor event from gatorade coolers being thrown in the dug out. Maybe a bad strike call? Maybe AJ booting a routine ball in left field? It will happen. just you wait.

    We almost saw it when Lackey through two consecutive pitches at/behind Guillen.

  184. MarinerDan on August 2nd, 2007 3:19 pm

    Sorry, I meant “threw.”

  185. Rusty on August 2nd, 2007 3:25 pm

    The Buddy Bell resigning sounds a lot like Hargrove’s departure. It just seems like 2 franchises who wanted their managers to edge out the door without the normal acrimonious firing. Sort of put internal pressures on the manager until he resigns without saying a peep on the real reasons why.

  186. jordan on August 2nd, 2007 3:38 pm

    dang.. this is not good.. one person you dont want to off is Guillen.. especially when he is happy and performing well.. this is why the mariners should have traded ibanez.

  187. msb on August 2nd, 2007 3:38 pm

    um, yeah.

  188. Wood Dog on August 2nd, 2007 3:41 pm

    What do you think we could have gotten for Ibanez? Well, the answer is nothing that would help. Can’t we just sit back and thank our lucky stars that we HAVE two perfect fixes to our two glaring holes in our lineup? (or at least potential fixes…) Broussard and AJ are godsends right now. It would really be insane to just keep things as they were, and hope Raul and Richie got better.

  189. JeffS on August 2nd, 2007 3:41 pm

    Lauren, you just can’t me out of your head, can you?

  190. Evan on August 2nd, 2007 3:44 pm

    Damn you for getting that Kylie song stuck in my head.

    No one who believes in chemistry would have DFA’d Ellison. He’s the very definition of the word ever since he took the fight to Cupcake.

  191. Colm on August 2nd, 2007 3:46 pm

    Honestly people, we are averaging one utterly unrealistic trade proposal every four of five posts.

    I’m sure someone here once swapped Richie Sexson for Jake Peavy straight-up in a fantasy league, but it’s not going to happen in the real world. The Yankees are not going to offer Philip Hughes for Vidro; Ibanez could not be shifted for Hanley Ramirez; and Richie Sexson would not garner the Mariners a bag of balls.

    Please, please stop.

  192. JeffS on August 2nd, 2007 3:48 pm

    About AJ, I would be shocked if he would be immediately penciled in as our everyday left fielder. McLaren will put him in against lefties at first and occasionally as a defensive replacement out of fear of rocking the boat too much. It’s sad, but that’s how the M’s management has always been.

  193. Xteve X on August 2nd, 2007 3:53 pm

    164 – Well put.

  194. Colm on August 2nd, 2007 4:11 pm

    I don’t know. They threw Felix right into the rotation two years ago.

  195. milquetoast on August 2nd, 2007 4:17 pm

    I like that the players think they’re doing so well that they don’t need any help. Yes. they’re doing so well that if the season ended right now, they’d pack up and go home.

  196. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 4:34 pm

    Honestly people, we are averaging one utterly unrealistic trade proposal every four of five posts.

    Yeah, those trades are only possible in a fantasy league with your drunken roomate.

    Has anyone from the FO called the Pirates recently?

  197. Wishhiker on August 2nd, 2007 4:35 pm

    Well, he’s getting called up. That’s the first step. Aside from that we’ll have to wait and see.

    I would hope that McLaren would be smart and say “he’s starting today” and play it by ear depending on how things go. I’d also hope that Jones continues producing after the call-up enough to get extended opportunities. Why should they say he’s locked in as a starter when he hasn’t done much at the major league level? For as much as everyone complains about Richie’s 79 SO in 393 PA (every 4.97PA), Jones has SO 106 times in 456 PA (every 4.30PA) against lesser pitchers. I’m not as certain as alot of you that he’s going to tear up Major league pitching. Playing every day, I don’t question him being an improvement when factoring both defense and offense, but he hasn’t figured out ML Pitching just yet. Wait and see, at this point.

    Guillen (and others) bitching about chemistry. Players comments off the field usually seem to have little to no effect on the field (as Chemistry.) So, again, I’ll just wait and see.

  198. Wishhiker on August 2nd, 2007 4:47 pm

    Holy cow, our awesome DH who’s gotten the 2nd most PA’s on the team is 9th in RBI’s and Broussard only needs 12 to catch him…He’s worth a retiring AAA Pitcher, right? I mean, shouldn’t he retire?

  199. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 4:58 pm

    197 – Who complains about Richie’s strikeouts? That seems like a pretty big strawman. Individual strikeouts, sure, but that’s not really the problem people have with his bat this year. so that’s a really weird comparison.

    Another strawman you use is saying that people here are certain he’s going to tear up major league pitching… that isn’t what most of us are saying. Hope? Sure. Certain? No. Especially not in the small sample size we are going to get… them having waited too long already.

    ____________

    I wonder if Guillen would have been as upset if he played for Boston after they went and got Gagne. And they are 8 games UP, not 3 games down.

  200. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 5:01 pm

    hy should they say he’s locked in as a starter when he hasn’t done much at the major league level? For as much as everyone complains about Richie’s 79 SO in 393 PA (every 4.97PA), Jones has SO 106 times in 456 PA (every 4.30PA) against lesser pitchers

    That’s NOT a very good stat to be quoting.

    Say you have a guy. He strikes out 50% of the time….but the 50% of the time he hits a home run. Would you be complaining that this guy strikes out all the time?

  201. JeffS on August 2nd, 2007 5:22 pm

    The only time a strikeout is the worst case scenario is with 2 outs or with no one on. I haven’t seen a stat that shows Richie leads the lead in K’ing in those situations, so striking isn’t in itself the worst result at the plate. But yeah, watching Big Sexy flail about and whiff makes him annoying to watch and an easy target.

  202. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 5:31 pm

    The only time a strikeout is the worst case scenario is with 2 outs or with no one on.

    Huh? How is a strikeout any different from a flyout with two outs? They all end the inning. You mean just in case there’s an error and the batter gets on? Then couldn’t you say that about any scenario?

  203. Colm on August 2nd, 2007 5:39 pm

    I think JeffS got that arse about face.

    Runner on 3rd, fewer than 2 outs, and a K is the jointly worst thing a batter can do (no worse than a pop up, as Brandon Morrow proved last night) (I’m not counting lining into a double play by the 3rd baseman, since that is too flukey).

    And as Derek pointed out yesterday, with the sacks full, and one out, a K is not nearly as bad as a GIDP.

    When a minor leaguer strikes out as often as that, it raises scouts questions about his swing: Is it too slow? too long? does he not have a good eye? That remains to be seen. But if he puts up numbers in the big leagues that come close to matching what he’s done this year in the PCL, nobody is going to care if he strikes out 180 times a season.

  204. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 5:41 pm

    well, the point is that fans (and, ahem, some baseball executives) are obsessed over strikeouts, when they aren’t that much worse to the offense than any other out.

    One big knock on Cameron, for example, was that he struck out too much. ‘Cept that’s kinda irrelevant when he was putting up .350-.370 OBP and knocking in 20 homers (in my book, at least).

    Strikeouts CAN be a sign that batters are getting fooled too much and not making contact…but that’d be hard to take seriously in Jones’ case when he’s making such HARD contact so OFTEN on the at-bats he’s not striking out on. If you’re punishing the pitchers that much, I think you can take the strikeouts in stride.

    (And which is why he should have been brought up long ago; all he’s learning now is that you can strike out that much if you’re punishing the pitchers in all the other at bats….)

  205. RoninX on August 2nd, 2007 5:53 pm

    202 & 203 – He said *Worst Case*, as 203 mentions there are plenty of fluky ways for more than 1 out to occur with men on base.

  206. Ninja Jordan on August 2nd, 2007 6:05 pm

    To Derek or anyone else who has a view:

    Is Jones’ best case basically a rich man’s Mike Cameron? An athletic OF with a great arm who hits for power but not average? I haven’t watched alot of him at Everett, but his physique, numbers, style screams high Ks, but also relatively high HR #s ala Mike Cameron.

  207. Ninja Jordan on August 2nd, 2007 6:10 pm

    edit: I mean Tacoma not Everett

  208. G-Man on August 2nd, 2007 6:22 pm

    I got the impression from something in the postgame radio show that the Jones callup info accidently slipped out. Does anyone know anything about that? I did hear Mac nort wanting to talk about it, and it did seem funny to put it out after the win, when they had to tell Ellison the bad news in a celebratory clubhouse – they would never have told him before the game, would they?

  209. johnb on August 2nd, 2007 6:30 pm

    I think Jones will hit for better average than Cameron. Defensively we didn’t give up much when Cameron replaced Griffey, so we will have to wait and see exactly how good a defensive player Jones will evolve into. My gut is he will be a better overall player than Cameron. The edge is he will be more consistent on offense.

  210. gwangung on August 2nd, 2007 6:34 pm

    Defensively we didn’t give up much when Cameron replaced Griffey

    Ah, I think we GAINED a lot defensively when Cameron came in…

  211. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 6:41 pm

    Personally, I think that Adam Jones will be phenomenal defensively (at least compared to Raul) but will struggle at times with K’s.

    Also I am worried that if AJ messes up one too many times, Guillen will get pissed off and the team’s chemistry will be screwed up.

  212. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 6:43 pm

    Oh, and I will now predict that by the end of the regular season, Richie will be gone and AJ playing sparsely.

  213. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 6:46 pm

    The Hall of Fame is filled with players who struck out a lot. That’s not to say that Jones is in that category or that he doesn’t need to cut down on his strikeouts, but strikeouts don’t matter as much as what a player produces when he does put the ball in play.

  214. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 6:50 pm

    I keep hearing that Vidro should either platoon with Raul or be out right benched.

    If this were to happen who on this team would bat #2?

    Lopez? He’s had arguably the worst month of anyone! Beltre? In my mind he should be in the #4 hole every night. Betancourt? Maybe but I don’t know if he’s patient enough. Broussard? Johjima?

    I don’t know… How would you handle it?

  215. Mr. Egaas on August 2nd, 2007 6:54 pm

    If this were to happen who on this team would bat #2?

    Why not Jones?

  216. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 6:55 pm

    Mike Cameron’s not a bad way to think about it – I can totally see Jones hitting .270/.330/.450 or something. Jones just puts a charge into the ball when he hits it, it’s amazing to see when he makes good contact.

    Yeah, I’m a fan.

  217. Mr. Egaas on August 2nd, 2007 6:59 pm

    I kinda always saw Jones being about where Cameron is. Definitely a quality player and quite the competitive advantage through his cheap years.

  218. CaptainPoopy on August 2nd, 2007 7:02 pm

    See, I was under the impression that his upside would be much better than Cammy?

  219. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 7:02 pm

    I was kinda thinking Jones too… but I think Guillen would cry! We’ll see but it would be great to get a little speed in the two hole again.

  220. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 7:02 pm

    One good example about the high K rate is BJ Upton. He K’s about 1/3rd of his AB’s, 85K’s/273AB’s. But he is also hitting a .330 with a .969 OPS. That has to do with his insane BABIP of .439, which will regress at some point.

    But the point remains K’s are not going to effect your stats if you can put the ball in play enough and make good contact.

  221. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:05 pm

    Yeah, but who’s to say Jones will be able to put the ball on the ground (to advance runners and stuff)?

    Seems to me that every out he had last year was in the air.

  222. CaptainPoopy on August 2nd, 2007 7:06 pm

    You could easily argue that he’s a much better hitter now than 1.5 years ago.

  223. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 7:08 pm

    Who’s to say that he won’t?

  224. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 7:09 pm

    221- thats definitly a concern and I think he’d be too eager to prove himself to idiots like Guillen and swing on the first pitch consistently.

    For as much as people bash Vidro I don’t think we have a better player to hit in the second slot.

  225. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:10 pm

    That’s true 222.

    However, the catch is that he is not much better at those little things that he should be able to do, like moving runners up and being a patient hitter.

  226. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 7:11 pm

    The job of a 2 hole hitter isn’t to ground out effectively, it is to get hits.

  227. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 7:13 pm

    w/r/t the Cameron comp — I didn’t mean that’s as good as Jones will get, or his long-term upside. I meant that’s what Jones could hit now.

  228. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 7:14 pm

    DMZ- Is your take on Jones the same as Dave? What about your prediction for the lineup with him in it?

  229. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:14 pm

    Hey, how about Willie to hit in the 2-hole?

    Just kidding.

    Actually maybe AJ could lead off and Ichiro hits second? It’s unorthodox, I know, but Detroit does something similar with Granderson.

  230. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 7:15 pm

    226: Exactly. I think we should be hoping that Jones is a flyball hitter.

  231. Paul B on August 2nd, 2007 7:15 pm

    When was the last time that you can remember that any team flipped two good young pitchers for one declining veteran?

    I’m not defending the stupid trade proposals regarding Vidro or Ibanez, but I had to respond to the above question.

    Ever heard of this one?

    Mike Jackson, Dave Burba and Bill Swift for Kevin Mitchell

  232. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:17 pm

    NO.

  233. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:17 pm

    who are those guys?

  234. CaptainPoopy on August 2nd, 2007 7:18 pm

    Thanks DMZ. I’m curious though as to what you think his potential could be?

  235. Paul B on August 2nd, 2007 7:20 pm
  236. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:20 pm

    I bet AJ will be productive HR and RBI-wise, but hit .240

  237. SequimRealEstate on August 2nd, 2007 7:22 pm

    Dave’s July 8, 2007 Roster construction

    5. Restructure the batting orders to account for the roster moves.

    The team’s line-up would have a different look to it with Adam Jones in it, and it needs a slight overhaul anyways. So, here are my proposed normal line-ups, with their OPS (as of Saturday, when I wrote this) vs LH/RH to the side.

    Vs RHP:

    1. Ichiro, CF, .860
    2. Ibanez, RF, .819
    3. Beltre, 3B, .800
    4. Broussard, 1B, .808
    5. Sexson, DH, .724
    6. Johjima, C, .701
    7. Lopez, 2B, .745
    8. Jones, LF, (AAA – .938)
    9. Betancourt, SS, .626

    Vs LHP:

    1. Ichiro, CF, .903
    2. Betancourt, SS, .829
    3. Guillen, RF, 1.117
    4. Beltre, 3B, .817
    5. Sexson, 1B, .730
    6. Johjima, C, 1.094
    7. Lopez, 2B, .648
    8. Jones, LF, (AAA – .981)
    9. Vidro, DH, .723

  238. CaptainPoopy on August 2nd, 2007 7:23 pm

    I think you’re loony TayTay

  239. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:24 pm

    why?

  240. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 7:25 pm

    I gotta take the Ichiro defense here – I’m entirely irrational about Adam Jones, since I saw him at Everett and thought “huh, maybe they were on to something not having him pitch”. I love, love, love Adam Jones as a player.

    I don’t know that he’s going to be an elite superstar, but I definitely see him as a very good player for a long while. I mean really, I don’t want to jinx it, the dream for Jones is you get a Carlos Beltran-type combination: primo defense, some speed, slugs over .500.

  241. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:26 pm

    Wait, Jones was a pitcher????

  242. CaptainPoopy on August 2nd, 2007 7:26 pm

    If that’s your ideal Jones… what do you expect of Balentien?

  243. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:29 pm

    Personally, I think Wladdy will be just like Vladdy, except he’ll be better off not playing in the field.

    I mean it – that guy will be a crazy DH.

  244. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 7:30 pm

    Like, he’ll hit really really really hard.

  245. Notor on August 2nd, 2007 7:32 pm

    Yeah Jones was a pitcher, and he could throw 95. Which is why he has a pretty good arm as far as outfielders go.

  246. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 7:37 pm

    I’m almost most excited for Jones’ arm. Did anyone see Raul’s throw home a couple nights ago? It was half way up the first base line!

  247. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 7:43 pm

    246: Arm strength is pretty overrated in player evaluation, from what I’ve read in several places (including here at USSM), but I gotta say I’m excited to see him flash that right arm, too.

    Ichiro, Jones and Guillen? Three cannons.

  248. Glen on August 2nd, 2007 7:45 pm

    246 – Ask Felix if outfield arm strength is overrated

  249. Rusty on August 2nd, 2007 7:46 pm

    Wladdy like Vladdy? Are you comparing Balentien to Guerrero?

    Guerrero struck out 1 time for every 10 at bats in the minors.

    Balentien has struck out 1 time for every 3 at bats.

    Right there your comparison runs right off the tracks.

  250. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 7:46 pm

    And add to that that Ichiro can shade into right-center now that Jones is in left. (Now he can worry about Jose instead of Raul) Its gonna be an outfield with tons of range and should get the ball in among the fastest in the league.

  251. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 7:56 pm

    For as much as people bash Vidro I don’t think we have a better player to hit in the second slot.

    That isn’t much of a concern to me. Slots in the order are way overrated. Especially the #2 slot, which seems to be defined by traditionalists as the slot for a guy who can put the bat on the ball but not do anything with it.

  252. thebrick on August 2nd, 2007 7:57 pm

    Before we trumpet any minor leaguer as the next savior of the M’s, let’s remember that the minors don’t exactly translate to the big show. I hope that Jones picks up where he left off in the minors and not the last time in the majors.

  253. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 7:58 pm

    Ask Felix if outfield arm strength is overrated

    And then think about it for yourself, research the question, and come to a logical conclusion. Outfield arm strength is very overrated; outfield range is many times more important.

  254. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 7:59 pm

    Vlad is in his own category, comparing someone in AAA to him is crazy.

    Arms might be overrated, but they are important. Ask an A’s fan about the many opponents who have run all over Shannon Stewart and his little league-esque arm.

  255. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 8:01 pm

    251- It might just be me but I think the 2 hole is extremely important. If Ichiro doesn’t get on some one has to be on the table for the big guys.

    Someone has to be mature enough to know to take pitches or hit it behind the runner or sac bunt.

    Execution wins ball games and the 2 hole has to execute.

  256. thebrick on August 2nd, 2007 8:01 pm

    Or the days when speedy Randy Winn roamed the outfield and could kick the ball in faster…

  257. Teej on August 2nd, 2007 8:02 pm

    248: One play changes everything, my bad.

    Of course it’s awesome sometimes. Nobody said it was useless. It’s just not as important as we sometimes want to think it is. Range and reaction time are just wildly more important. Adam Jones would be an outstanding outfielder with or without an incredibly strong arm.

  258. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 8:03 pm

    253- How many runners have stopped at third cuz of Ichiro? Range definitly matters more but don’t underestimate Ichiro’s ability to stop runs from scoring with his arm.

  259. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 8:03 pm

    Or Johnny Damon hitting Manny as his cut off man, just thinking about that play cracks me up.

  260. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 8:09 pm

    Before we trumpet any minor leaguer as the next savior of the M’s, let’s remember that the minors don’t exactly translate to the big show.

    Sigh. Jones doesn’t have to be a savior. He has to be better than the other options. That’s all we’re “trumpeting” him as right now: obviously bettr than the other options.

    Minors “don’t exactly” translate to the majors. But if you take park factors, age, and scouting into account, minor league numbers in fact are pretty reliable at telling you what a player will do in the majors, given a fair chance. Despite widespread belief to the contrary, there is little magical difference between the minors and the majors; for most players, it’s just the last step up in skill. Adam Jones has as good a shot at being a good major league player as you could hope for. It’s not a crap shoot; it’s a damned good bet. Sure, even good bets don’t always come through; but you’d be an idiot not to make a good bet just because it’s not an ironclad 100% guarantee.

    I swear, lately the comment sections here are full of Ye Olde Wizdumb that you can hear from any half-awake color guy — Rex Hudler-level commentary. Just because everyone always said it doesn’t mean it’s true.

  261. scraps on August 2nd, 2007 8:17 pm

    254, 258: Plenty of research has been done on the effect of outfield arms. If it affects the game significantly, it can be measured. Research consistently shows that arm strength has a small effect, and range has a much larger effect. That’s a fact, no matter how many times anecdotal observation tells you someone didn’t run because of Ichiro’s arm (and no matter how many times you forget someone taking a base on Ichiro and his throw going up the line).

    255: How can the two hole be “extremely important” when it’s only guaranteed to be the two hole once a game, and after that the guy’s place in the inning is random? And if it’s so important, why has it become traditional to put small-ball hitters there?

    The importance of the two hole ought to be this: It’s the spot that will come up the second-most-often in the season. That’s all. So, ideally, you want your second-best OPS there. And I suppose you’d rather not have a guy who clogs up the bases.

    How is it that Vidro is an ideal #2, even traditionally? He gets on base; that’s good. But he’s slow as a rock, and hits a ton of ground balls (hence double plays).

  262. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 8:22 pm

    I definitly don’t think Vidro is Ideal at all… My comment was supposed to be about who on this team would fill the roll better.

    But in my defense the two hitter does hit in front of the 3 and 4 hitters all game and I think you need some one to get on base for those guys. (who idealy should be your best hitters…but thats where the M’s have batted Sexson & Raul routinely so who knows…)

  263. HamNasty on August 2nd, 2007 8:30 pm

    261- I wasn’t arguing that arm was more important then range, I don’t think anyone was. I was saying that arms are a good plus to have. You have to admit it is fun to watch Damon lob in balls from center in Yankee Stadium.

    If the range is the same obviously you want the guy with the better arm out there.

  264. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 8:33 pm

    Preach-263!

  265. NBarnes on August 2nd, 2007 8:33 pm

    I don’t think I’d really ever want Beltre in the #4 spot. The #4 hitter is more likely to lead off an inning than any other lineup position then the leadoff batter. Beltre has power, but not a lot of patience. I’d much rather have Beltre in the #2 or #3 spot and then a guy more friendly with walks in the #4 spot.

    ‘course, we don’t have a lot of guys that like to walk a lot. Bad roster construction on that front.

  266. huhwhat on August 2nd, 2007 8:36 pm

    261 – Not trying to get into the discourse, but how exactly was the research conducted showing that arm strength has a small effect? I do agree range is much more important but I would have to say if a scout has to measure a players tools and arm strength is one of those, then it has to have some importance. Because if the research stated little significance, then why would anyone even have arm strength as a measurable.

  267. Chris88 on August 2nd, 2007 8:38 pm

    263 –

    Damon’s got nothing on the patented Juan Pierre 13-hopper.

  268. Chris88 on August 2nd, 2007 8:43 pm

    266 – the research is easy. We know how many assists are made on average, we can know how many Ichiro makes above average, and what those extra times do for the team over a 162 game season is so small it is insignificant. Even the guys that ‘don’t run’ because of the reputation could be calculated just based on a situation (runner on 1st no outs, fly ball to deep center) comparing Ichiro or Guillen to the average number of times a runner would take that base.

    That being said, we know the run value of something like taking a base, and when it all adds up its just unimportant.

    Thats a sort of bad summary of how it works, but hopefully it makes sense. Basically, if it is a reoccurring event that happens on the baseball field, it can be quantified and compared.

  269. Chris88 on August 2nd, 2007 8:49 pm

    Oh, also

    “if a scout has to measure a players tools and arm strength is one of those, then it has to have some importance. ”

    Arm strength is much more important for infielders or catchers so I’d guess they could use that rating system meaningfully in those cases.

    And its not like saying you could have absolutely no arm and be fine in the outfield, its basically the difference between Ichiro, Vlad, Guillen and average-armed OFers is what is unimportant. Not that arm strength is unimportant.

  270. insidetheparker on August 2nd, 2007 8:51 pm

    I see the logic because there are so many games in a season and it does happen only once every couple games. The good news is that Mr. Jones has range and an arm! So I don’t really understand why everyone is making such a big deal over the impact arm strength. :/

  271. huhwhat on August 2nd, 2007 8:51 pm

    268 – Any links to surveys and research findings of how insignificant outfield arm strength is. Not that I have an issue with your explanation, it does make sense, just curious and wouldn’t mind reading up on it.

  272. rsrobinson on August 2nd, 2007 8:55 pm

    Clearly having a strong, accurate arm in the OF is preferable to having a weak, inaccurate one. If you had to choose, though, between a strong-armed outfielder with little range and a weak-armed one with lots of range, you go with the range (all other things being equal). In the case of Jones and Ibanez though, it’s not a close call defensively since Jones has both superior range and arm.

  273. baseballismylyf4 on August 2nd, 2007 9:23 pm

    So is he starting on Friday? I’ll be at the game, and I kinda wanna see what he’s made of this time around…

  274. Chris88 on August 2nd, 2007 9:33 pm

    271 – I’ll try and pull some up for you.

  275. dirk on August 2nd, 2007 9:36 pm

    I like the idea of Jones in the leadoff spot…(it will never happen, I know, but strong ales are talkin’ to me)

    vs RHP

    Jones LF
    Ich CF
    Beltre 3B
    Ibanez DH
    Guillen RF
    Broussard 1B
    Johjima C
    Lopez 2B
    Yuni SS

    VS LHP

    Jones LF
    Ich CF
    Guillen RF
    Beltre 3B
    Sexson 1B
    Johjima C
    Vidro DH
    Lopez 2B
    Yuni SS

  276. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 9:51 pm

    However, the catch is that he is not much better at those little things that he should be able to do, like moving runners up and being a patient hitter.

    Moving runners up and being a patient hitter are not little things. Vidro is definitely one of our more patient hitters, and deserves credit for that. Maybe he could teach some of the other guys a little plate discipline. But as far as moving runners up? Lopez is the only regular worse at moving runners up.

    Huh, you ask? Lopez is the only guy with a lower SLG than Vidro, and extra-base hits are the best way to move runners up. Thinking that bunts and grouding out to 2B are reasonable alternatives to a double into the gap is one of the antediluvian ideas that drive some of us nuts.

    Vidro has shown occasional power surges, and if he could sustain his July numbers all year, I’d be reasonably happy.

  277. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 10:04 pm

    I’m sorry, but Vidro has not shown “occasional power surges” unless you want to squint at the game logs enough that the random distribution of infrequent events looks like a pattern of some kind. You might as well say he’s the victim of a “consistent power outage”

  278. hcoguy on August 2nd, 2007 10:08 pm

    276. Vidro is not a patient hitter. He has a good eye for balls and strikes but is not afraid to swing at the first pitch if it is one he likes. His pitchers per plate appearance this year is 3.7. American League average is 3.8. Earlier in the year he was at 3.5 so he has improved in the last month or so. Beltre is also 3.7 so take that for what its worth. Only Lopez, Joh, and Yuni have lower as far as regulars go on the M’s.

  279. JeffS on August 2nd, 2007 10:09 pm

    I still think those dream lineups with Jones playing everyday are just that… a dream. And those hoping for Vidro to be benched that won’t happen while he is hot. Sometimes I wonder how many people posting here really “know” the team they are rooting for.

  280. Steve T on August 2nd, 2007 10:16 pm

    Vidro’s “power surges” are of the variety that fried my old motherboard.

  281. JMHawkins on August 2nd, 2007 10:20 pm

    Well, I suppose “surge” could be a relative term, but yeah, .412 SLG for July isn’t exacly Ruthian. Even then, it was only six doubles. I should’ve looked at his ISO instead. His SLG just looks impressive next to his May and June numbers. Plus, I live in Duvall, where consistent power outages are the norm, so I’ve been trained to think a 20-watt bulb glimmering for a couple of minutes is a sign of hope.

    I withdraw my “power surge” comment. But if he keeps up an .829 OPS the rest of the year, I’ll won’t complain.

  282. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 10:34 pm

    Meh, Vidro won’t be benched – the administration won’t do that.

  283. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 10:36 pm

    275, you know what you are talking about.

  284. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 10:44 pm

    You guys know what?

    To completely change the subject, [deleted, change of subject]

  285. Jeff Nye on August 2nd, 2007 10:45 pm

    I could simulate Vidro’s “power surge” by scuffing my feet on the carpet and then touching a piece of metal.

  286. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 10:51 pm

    What power surge?

    He hasn’t homered since May.

  287. thefin190 on August 2nd, 2007 10:57 pm

    275, i like that lineup, even though realistically i don’t think they would bat ichiro 2nd and jones 1st, but who knows. they would probably want Jones to use some of that power. I don’t think Ibanez should be batting clean up unless he warms up, but i suppose we don’t have anyone else worthy of being a power slugger. (maybe Broussard but he hasn;t had enough playing time to prove himself a dominate power hitter even though we have seen the potential).

  288. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 10:59 pm

    Doesn’t having Ichiro bat 2nd and Jones leadoff remind anyone of Granderson for the Tigers?

  289. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 10:59 pm

    265 – That post went largely without comment, but I’m not sure I understand it.

    Not sure why the #4 hitter is 2nd most likely to lead off. Is that true? I’m guessing that the reasoning is the 2nd inning? Can’t be much difference really, can there? Am I missing something?

    And re: Beltre and walking. Why do we prefer getting on base to slugging in the 4 spot? You really think the 4 spot needs to specifically be an OB guy? I’m not sure Beltre is ideal, either. But who would be better on this team right now? Assuming no platoon.

  290. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 11:00 pm

    Granderson is similar to AJ cause they’re both strong and fast and K a lot.

  291. Bearman on August 2nd, 2007 11:01 pm

    I can see the comparsion with Cameron with Adam Jones in his offense and his glove work.However I see a bit of Torii Hunter in him too with his speed he can turn on and catch up to flyballs which would be extra base hits.

    Judging by film of him in Tacoma and at the AAA all star game are any indication.He as good a OFer as Hunter or Cameron and could help take some of the worry off Ichiro in CF.

  292. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 11:01 pm

    I would want Raul to bat clean-up because that’s the spot he does best in.

  293. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 11:05 pm

    Forgive me if you think this is stupid, but I see a bit of Grady Sizemore in AJ – they are both “fearless” of hard-hit balls and hustle to every ball.

  294. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 11:10 pm

    Also, is someone really concerned that Adam Jones won’t hit enough ground balls? That’s… wacky.

    That would be maybe my 89,182nd ranked concern. Right below the concern that the team will run out of A’s and J’s to sew on uniforms.

  295. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 11:15 pm

    292 – Why do I care where Raul is best at more than I care who would be best at it?

    Also, we can’t say that is where Raul is best without giving him an equal shot at every slot… let’s try 8th and 9th for a while.

  296. John in L.A. on August 2nd, 2007 11:18 pm

    Man, I hope Rotowire knows what they’re talking about.

    Rotowire:

    Update: Ibanez likely will lose at-bats after Friday’s planned promotion of prospect Adam Jones.

    Recommendation: Ibanez is a liability in left field and age and injuries have hurt his swing. However, while Ibanez’s .697 OPS makes him a candidate for benching, he has driven in the second-most runs on the team (62) and has much better power than Jose Vidro. But it’s probably hard for the M’s to bench Vidro because of his .306 average. They could platoon Ibanez and Vidro at DH with Ibanez sitting against LHP (.558 OPS).

  297. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 11:21 pm

    “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

    The only exception is if you’re in a pennant race, I guess.

    AJ will make us better, but will it be enough to win the west?

  298. TAYTAY20 on August 2nd, 2007 11:22 pm

    With the quote, I am referring to our line-up.

  299. DMZ on August 2nd, 2007 11:22 pm

    Okay, time for a TAYTAY break for USSM.

  300. Greg08 on August 2nd, 2007 11:49 pm

    cant wait to see Jones on Friday

  301. John D. on August 2nd, 2007 11:49 pm

    OUTFIELD ARMS (See # 271 and # 274.)

    (This should hold you for a while.)

    http://tinyurl.com/oegze

  302. thefin190 on August 3rd, 2007 12:02 am

    sad, Ibanez might not even start for his own bobblehead night. But who knows what’ll happen by august 17th?

  303. dingla on August 3rd, 2007 8:28 am

    #122, [unintelligible]!?

    Crikey!

    almost as worse as the imposter “survivaler” Bear Gryll. I tell ya, i tell ya…

    BROUSSARD ’08

  304. dingla on August 3rd, 2007 8:32 am

    #302, thefin190 Says:

    “sad, Ibanez might not even start for his own bobblehead night…”

    Blimey!!!

    I will not support this safeco maelstrom!

  305. beckya57 on August 3rd, 2007 11:27 am

    [noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

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