The value of outfield defense
DMZ · August 5, 2007 at 12:44 am · Filed Under Mariners
After tonight’s game, I can’t help but feel that anyone who doesn’t think outfield defense isn’t important hasn’t been watching the M’s lately.
Also, given the Red Sox lineup, their performance against Washburn, why in the world do you bring in the relief version of Washburn to relieve Washburn?
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Are you implying that John MacLaren hasn’t been watching the games? Not that I’m doubting you. When it shows him on the bench, he always has a kind of dreamy look on his face. Like maybe he’s daydreaming about being the coach of the Seahawks…”At least then I wouldn’t have to wear this stupid uniform.” Poor MacLaren.
Outfield defense? As in the kind where Manny R. hits a ball in the gap and a certain Mariner outfielder playing left manages to cover about as much ground as a 18 year old girl? And does so when a certain leffielder is sitting on the bench could have caught that ball while barely breaking into a slow jog? Oh, and the run that scored on that play just so happend to be the margin of victory for the opposing team in a game in which a victory would have meant the current lead in the wild card race? That kind of defense?
…probably because he didn’t pitch yesterday.
Not sure why you were questioning bringing in Aussie Aussie Aussie. Small sample size aside, RR-S has shown an ability to at least get strikeouts. His impact on the game was also a net positive according to Fangraphs. Not much of one, mind you, but still a positive.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the fact that, yes, today’s loss was preventable or, at least was able to be modified highly in the M’s favor by putting in the greatest asset defensively the Mariners have.
Oh, and someone telling Guillen not to throw that ball.
Greatest asset defensively? Christ. I really don’t know how to respond to that. The only things that come to mind are the word “Ichiro,” and the very strong possibility that many, many of the visitors of this blog are strikingly similar to Chicken Little.
I don’t mean to dispute that Adam Jones would probably be a defensive improvement, as I, no doubt like the great majority of people griping for his inclusion in the lineup, have not seen Adam Jones play before Friday. But to call him the greatest asset defensively is to do an INCREDIBLE disservice to the 90 million dollars the Mariners just promised to number 51. PLEASE everybody, let’s let Adam Jones earn his praise, the same way that Bavasi, and, to an increasing degree Mac, have frittered theirs away.
And, by the way, a one-run loss to the Boston Red Sox is not exactly a cause for concern. It had to happen sometime, and if one out of every ten Mariners/Sox matchups ended in a loss for the Mariners, I would be very, very happy.
I simply cannot comprehend how anyone can be around the game that long and not realize its value.
That game was very depressing to me.
5 – Knowing TIf, I’m guessing, and apologies TIF if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing he meant the greatest defensive option, not overall. Maybe he didn’t, I dunno. But even if you wanted to argue Ichiro, it would be hard to convince me he’s better than Beltre.
Either way, he didn’t insult Ichiro.
And, aside from fatigue, a one run loss to the Red Sox is as bad as a twenty run loss to the Red Sox. Don’t know why anyone should be happy about it. Perfect opportunity to gain ground.
If anything, it’s worse, because the loss was avoidable. And it’s incredibly frustrating to watch someone be stupid.
And when we lose one run games when management is stupid, then we should all feel ripped off. Cheated by ignorance.
Ichiro’s defense is more valuable than Beltre’s.
7 – Well, center field defense if more valuable than 3rd base defense, I’ll certainly agree with that.
But that’s not what I was saying. I can see why it should have been, but it wasn’t.
Row-Smith has way better stuff than Washburn.
Was that the question?
2- I think he covers as much ground as a quickly aging slow outfielder. I’m pretty sure most 18 year old girls would cover much more.
10 – haha, yeah. I thought that comment was a little weird. Are 18 year old girls known for being slow? I would think they where in the prime of their speed at that point….
Where is it in the Mariners’ bylaws that they have to play an aging slow outfielder in his defensive position until his contract runs out, instead of suggesting strongly to that aging slow outfielder he should VOLUNTEER to step aside in favor of a younger, faster defender, for the benefit of the team as a whole and for the purported goal of winning more games?
This game, as quite a few have noted already ahead of me, is a prime example of why pitchers like Washburn have mediocre records, and why Ibanez should not be The Face of The Mariners anymore. I stopped being sentimental after about the 20th gaffe in LF, to be honest. And in this game, how many times a measly hit from him would have made such a big difference.
Guillen’s defense is another problem, but…one thing at a time.
Today we’re supposed to see Adam Jones again in the field, right, only spelling Ichiro instead of Ibanez? Well, then, I hope Willie Bloomquist gets a start today in LF…
(I should say, “why pitchers like Washburn have mediocre W-L records…” Nevermind all the other data that you guys say proves he’s mediocre anyway. With a little more defensive help he could have 3-4 more wins FOR THE CLUB. Who cares what the stats say are if his defense-dependent style of pitching can be improved by better fielders?)
Lets play a game!
Player A: .293/.333/.371 (OPS: 704)
Player B: .252/.308/.388 (OPS: 696)
Player A is above average defensively.
Player B would be forced to play catcher in Recreation softball leagues.
Guess who they are!
As much as managers don’t matter, McLaren is not a good manager, at least not yet. In this day in age of sabermetric friendly GM’s, it’s time for the coaches to join in.
That’d be A.) WFB, B.) Raul “The Statue” Ibanez.
Not only are both LF and CF defense suspect, they aren’t getting the timely hits either. I can’t believe Guillen’s numbers for the last two days. 6 SO with 11 LOB. How do you get that many opportunities and do nothing? You get half those people in and you can play suspect defense.
With roughly 50 games left, is it a stretch to suggest Jones might be as much as a 10 run upgrade in left defensively?
Safeco’s outfield generally inflates a player’s defense which probably explains why Dewan’s improved ZR rates Ibanez out as a middle of the road defender in left (he actually has 26 OOZ plays for instance). UZR on the other hand reflects my eye much better and grades Ibanez out as on of the worst defensive left fielders in the majors.
Why does UZR and ZR disagree so dramatically-shouldn’t Ibanez get the same artificial boost in UZR?
When I realized they’d re-inserted Ibanez back in LF after starting Jones there the day before, I instantly knew we were in trouble. Mac’s insistance on “playing the veteran’s” is really getting on my nerves. Seriously, he can’t be that stupid, can he?There was at least one base hit by Boston that dropped in and to Raul’s right that I felt confident Jones could have gotten with ease had he been out there.I just HATE to watch this team field an inferior product day after day when they have a much better quality product right at their fingertips. It’s so annoying. Especially when they could knowingly gain ground in the standings. At least they sat Richie…
AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
Play JONES!!!!
This is so boneheadedly obvious. How can you watch Ibanez and Guillen watch balls drop mere feet in front of them day after day and not begin to wonder what the scoreboard would look like if those were turned into outs? Maybe McLaren lacks the depth perception to see how bloody close some of those balls are to being caught.
On our current course we’re going to miss the playoffs by about twenty AJ starts in LF.
#14: Bloomquist really isn’t an above average defensive outfielder though….
Oh, boy, here we go again. I feel like we’ve had this same conversation everyday for the last month. I think AJ the constant “AJ rules/Ibanez sucks at defense” posts are just preaching to the choir at this point.
Bloomquist isn’t being used near enough either. He’s having a great offensive season, and he’s never a liability defensively. Why not use him to give Guillen a night off once in a while? Or Beltre?
hmm, apparently it’s a subject in many clubhouses
btw, I was looking at Geoff’s blog to see if he’d weighed in on defense (he’s sticking with the offense, so far) and by golly I sure had forgotten what interesting views are held by some Baseball Fans.
Thank you all for the general tone around these here parts
But Bloomquist isn’t having a great offensive year. His line of .293/.333/.371 would make him a below average AL left fielder (.267/.328/.414) and pretty close to a replacement level AL right fielder (.285/.357/.460). Heck AL center fielders are out hitting him (.277/.345/.426) while Bloomquist is struggling to equal an average Al shortstop(.271/.324/.389)or catcher (.255/.318/.394). No doubt Bloomquist could beat most AL catchers in the 50 yard dash though.
speaking of defense– if Vidro plays for Lopez today (and looking at Baker’s infield piece this morning) I think maybe I begin to understand why they were trying to get Mark Loretta after all.
Come on. You’re watching Manny play against you and railing about your own team’s outfield defense?
I suppose it’s worse in Safeco than playing left in Fenway. But after 6 and a half years of watching Manny get bad jumps, take the wrong route and chicken out on trying to catch balls, Sox fans might be ahead of you guys in line for a good fielding left fielder.
At this point, it’s like the situation near the end of the Bad News Bears where you get the bad Walter Mathau who just wants to win. He tells Kelly Leek the centerfielder to get every ball he can. The other night poor Coco Crisp was surrounded by Manny and Wily Mo, two incompetent fielders who cover little ground. Coco had to cover at least half the field not a third of it.
This was more excusable when Manny was batting .320 with 40 homers. He’s not on the way to 40 homers this year.
Make that still a sub-.500 OPS for The Beloved One since the all star break and the picture gets worse, of course.
28
Ibanez isn’t even on his way to 10 (ten) homers this year. At least Manny’s still a net positive on the roster.
Yeah, you know, I think I’d put up with Raul if he was putting up a .900 OPS (Manny’s current numbers). But really, .700 for the season, .500 since the AS break doesn’t really cut it.
Honestly, I’m kinda sad WFB hasn’t been getting more time out there.
While Raul’s defense is suspect, it definately is not the major contributing factor to losing this game. How about this….
bases loaded one out
1st and 3rd one out
1st and 2nd no outs
2nd and 3rd two outs
= ZERO RUNS!
That’s why we lost.
They may have had a chance to win last nights game but they were very lucky on Friday night. Sorry for the platitude in advance but, you can’t win them all.
> 33: you can’t win them all.
And that, of course, is not the point.
Raul’s skills have fallen off a cliff since last year. Not only does he look like he’s running through mud in LF but he can’t turn on a fastball anymore and drive it to right. Whenever he does make contact everything is going to center/center-left, which is death in Safeco.
I don’t know how much of this is just age and how much is due to injuries but if Ibanez is going to contribute at the plate during the stretch run they need to get him rested and healthy. With Jones up now it makes no sense whatsoever to be playing Raul in LF.
33-
Of course you can’t win them all. But last night’s game was very winnable, and I think that’s why most people (including myself) are upset.
It’s an interesting formula; put a young player down in the order to “take pressure off”. If he struggles, sit him to “take pressure off”. If he does well, keep him down in the order so he doesn’t try to do too much.
If you have an aging veteran, struggling on defense and at the plate, then you run him out there constantly to keep struggling on defense and you keep hitting him 4th. Gotta love it.
37
Exactly…and why is he batting 4th? Can’t Mac at least move him down in the lineup a bit like he has done for other guys?
For me, more to the point is that if you are going to alternate days with AJ and Raul in LF and with Vidro and Lopez at 2B, why wouldn’t you have Jones in LF and Vidro at 2B with a LHP (Washburn) and have Raul in LF and Lopez at 2B with the RHP? In other words, maximize the defense based on who is pitching that day. Also, add in GB/FB tendencies of said pitchers and it is ridiculous that Jones wasn’t in LF yesterday and Vidro is at 2B today instead of vice/versa.
on a positive note….at least Broussard was starting for Richie last night and had 2 hits i believe.
TIME HAS COME…
Raul age is costing the M’s at the plate and in the field. Hitting weak ground balls in the infield, leaving runners stranded in scoring position and inconsitent defense play in the outfield. Along with Richie, who should be on the bench, OMG he is hitting .095,
sounds like J.J era. Should be sent down to Tacoma to work on his swing. He is striking out on 89 mph fastballs with men in scoring position. Lets GO Adam and Ben.
Well, Raul can’t be sent to Tacoma.
Here’s the BIG part of the problems you’re seeing on the field and 21 has it right without realizing:Bonehead Bavasi that’s the bonehead he was thinking of.
McClaren I don’t know if he’s make good or bad decisions but I do know he’s trying to get the job done and so far he isn’t prefect but he doing better than most rookie managers.
Remember the M’s are only 2 1/2 GB in the division and 1/2 GB in the wild card with 50+ games to go not bad for a club with 2 SPs and feast or famine offense.
If Bavasi would back off McClaren knows that Ibanez needs rest and DHing will get him that.He put Jones more regularly in LF to accomplish that very thing.
He’s already playing smart by while not saying so platooning Broussard and Sexson at 1stB.To give Sexson enough rest and time to bring his bat around if he can.
However I think his shoulder he injuried while with the D-Backs prior to signing with the M’s is a factor.
Neither Sexson nor the M’s want to admit it some delayed reaction or reinjury minor but enoungh to cause his present troubles.
As to the plan to start Vidro at 2ndB is a unneeded risk with a guy with his injury history if you want a fresh player there go with Bloomie after all that is his job on the club:Utility man.
I can’t help but feel that anyone who doesn’t think outfield defense isn’t important hasn’t been watching the M’s lately
A quadruple negative!
I missed last night’s game. Was their a specific play that Raul didn’t make that cost us a run?
I saw a highlight of the play where Manny scored from first base and that had nothing to do with Raul. That was a shot into the corner that there was no way was going to be cut off, plus Manny was running with the play.
Was there another play?
Yuni made a poor relay throw to home otherwise Manny is out easily, but Raul’s slowness in getting to the ball contributed to it. Raul also made an error on a single that allowed Ortiz (I think it was) to take second.
Top 4th: Boston
- K. Youkilis flied out to center
- D. Ortiz singled to left, D. Ortiz to second on left fielder R. Ibanez’s fielding error
- M. Ramirez walked
- M. Lowell popped out to shortstop
- J. Varitek doubled to deep left, M. Ramirez and D. Ortiz scored
- J.D. Drew struck out swinging
2 runs, 2 hits, 1 errors
Boston 2, Seattle 1
Both the items in bold were catchable by a good left fielder.
Raul has made 11 errors in left field…enough said
Morrow should have been pitching in the sixth last night. He is the perfect counter to Washburn and there is no reason to be saving him for later in the game. Use him we you need him.
45 – Maybe it will answer your question more fully if I point out that I think there is a reason DMZ said “outfield defense” instead of “left field defense”.
Meaning it was a collective disappointment:
Raul fumbled and bumbled a ball leading to an extra base, at least.
He also was slow getting to a ball, but ultimately it was Yuni that screwed that play up.
There was also a hit deep into the gap that wouldn’t be fair to say he should have gotten, but that a GREAT fielder may have, and saved the game. (not sure about that, only saw one angle)
But when was the last time you saw Raul make any range-based great play? Even the play he got so much credit for last week was hit maybe 10 feet from him.
Last, and here is what was supposed to be the point of my post, Guillen allowed a run to score by air mailing a throw about ten feet over Beltre’s head.
So it was the cumulative failure that led directly or indirectly to, what, 3? 2? of their runs.
47 – You are right, it wouldve probably been a 3-2 win and the M’s would’ve already have been out of that inning before facing Varitek if Raul made the play. But even if he made the error they still couldve been out of the inning if he had caught Varitek’s double.
Anyone see line-ups for todays game yet?
52 – Yes. As expected, in regards to outfield defense, it’s Raul-Adam-Jose.
#52:
Ichiro (DH)
Vidro (2b)
Guillen (RF)
Broussard (1B)
Beltre (3B)
Ibanez (LF)
Jones (CF)
Burke (C)
Bettie (SS)
I think Mclaren missed the memo explaining the point of calling Jones up was to improve the defense….
I don’t think I can continue to read this or any other blog. I get so frustrated reading the same thing written ten different ways.
It seems like every baseball fan except Mac knows exactly what to do:
Put Jones in LF.
Have Vidro play a little second base for Lopez.
DH Ibanez when Vidro plays second.
Continue to platoon Ben/Richie or just sit Richie for a few games.
Let Willie rest Betancourt/Beltre and Guillen on a regular basis.
Then turn the runners LOOSE and get more aggressive on the basepaths. I’m so sick of seeing Ichiro NOT steal. If it’s HIS choice, then kick him in the ass and tell him to get going. If it’s Mac’s choice, then SEND him.
The team needs to start to moving runners. It’s ridiculous to get runners on first and second with no outs then not get them to third where a sac fly can score them. More importantly HIT the damn sac fly when there’s a runner there!!!
Sweet jeebus.
Can I send my dentist bill to McLaren when I’ve ground my teeth to nubs? Jones
Don’t expect to see 2 high profile, highly paid veterans on the bench the same day. When Sexson sits, Raul plays…due in most part to there being a RHP on the mound, but all the other stuff as well…like chemistry, veteran ego coddling, marketing……
Hmm…last post got cut off because I used a “less than” symbol. Oops.
Unless Ellison got a start in CF this season I believe that this is the worst outfield, defensively, we’ve put out there this year. Jones is good, but he’s no Ichiro. On the infield, Vidro is definitely worse than Lopez and Broussard isn’t as good a receiver at first as Sexson…from what I’ve seen.
This could be a very long game.
I dunno, playing Vidro at second seems worse than Ichiro successfully stealing 94% of the time.
For now, sit Sexson and use Ibanez as DH (part time with Vidro) as has been stated numerous times her before but I would have liked to see the club make a bold decision and DFA Sexson and pretend that Jones’ salary is the combination of Sexson and his league minimum combined.
The fact that Jones is not playing full time is purely ego on the part of the front office for failing with Sexson/Vidro/Ibanez. The next big contract idea Bavasi has should be vetoed immediately.
I don’t see the point in splitting DH between Vidro and Ibanez. There’s no performance advantage to doing so. Platooning Ibanez and Guillen in RF makes a lot more sense offensively, and is defensively not a huge difference. But then Guillen explodes and shoves McLaren into his locker or something.
Sounds like a Win-Win scenario to me!