Read the tea leaves with me
Something’s been bothering me for a while, so I’m going to throw this out — the broadcast crew operates as a promotional wing of the team. They’re there to sell the product. But like any propaganda wing, there’s a lot of subtext you can read if, like me, you’re nutty and read a lot of history during your impressionable years. And there’s been a lot of strangeness going on lately if you’ve been paying attention (and if you haven’t, you’re in good company).
Besides the increasingly weird contortions Blowers goes through to justify lineup choices (gotta go with the guys who ground it out, unless they won a game with Bloomquist in the lineup, then you go with the guys who are winning)(by the way, one of the weirdest in-game comments was the assertion that other players asked for Bloomquist to be kept in the lineup, which would support the view that Lopez isn’t particularly popular, much less appreciated, even within the team, considering that Guillen was willing to step up and trash Jones on behalf of Ibanez/Vidro when they were stinking up the joint)… okay, that was too long of a parenthetical, so I’ll start over.
They’ve been repeatedly pounding in broadcasts that Jones could/would/should start next year. They’ve gone so far as to say it’s his time, he deserves it, he absolutely should be starting… that’s really strong language to use, and moreover, I can’t remember another time that we’ve seen the PR arm pushing playing time for a player, even next year. They just don’t agitate for that kind of thing. This is especially weird since there is no place for that person right now or in the future, unless some move is made. Now of course they’re not saying that someone else has to go — there’s no way that happens. But there’s no other way for it to work out.
And if the organizational view is that Jones is a trading chip to be used to acquire pitching, there’s no reason they’d be pumping up Jones as the future of the outfield and saying the team’s got to find a place for him. They’d be shutting up about him entirely, most likely.
I thought about this a lot last night, and here’s what I’m thinking: either explicitly or just from general chatter, the crew knows the team’s determined to move Sexson next year. They’ve had the chance before, could even have let Detroit pick him up on waivers (oh man, does that look like a wasted chance in retrospect, but that’s not the topic at hand). Then they’ll figure something out, most likely playing Ibanez/Vidro at first, with the other at DH, and
The other possibility, and it doesn’t seem as likely but still… they’re going to dump Lopez and play Vidro out there, DH Ibanez, and put Jones in left. They’re clearly steamed at Lopez, to the point they were trying to replace him at the deadline with Loretta, but Vidro’s time in the field, while not a disaster, certainly proved his lateral range is just destroyed. That’s not as huge a liability at first, but at second, wow.
(or, alternately, if Ichiro wants… actually, I don’t want to open that yet)
I can’t figure out another explanation for the propaganda – and essentially, the promise of playing time – if the sentiment isn’t that a move’s going to be made. They’re not selling fans on a player they know is going to be gone, and they’re certainly not selling “his time has come” without the team at least letting it go: I’m sure if they disproved, or didn’t want that storyline sold, someone would have a chat with the producers or the talent, and that’d be the last we heard about it.
Sexson or Lopez, then?
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If Mac or other felt that Vidro could play 2B, he would be playing. The fact that Lopez has been in the doghouse and Vidro has not seen 2B indicates to me that Vidro will not replace Lopez. They might replace Lopez, but not with Vidro.
Why not play Ibanez at 1B? Dump Sexson a let Ibanez become acclimated to a new position as early as possible. That would free up LF for Jones.
Also, there is not guarantee that Guillen will be resigned. Personally, if he wants a Byrnes-like contract, I would be happy to let him leave and let Jones take over in right, or move Ibanez to RF.
Does Lopez have that much trade value? Even with his horrible 2007 season and corresponding injuries, I would think that Sexson might have more value because of his power-hitting reputation. Just wondering if the Mariners would be able to get anything of value back for either player.
I can’t begin to imagine they’ve given up on Lopez. He’s what? 24? And they just signed him for a few years to boot. I’d have to say we’ve seen about the last of Herr Sexson. Of course, could his trade “value” be any lower?
I’ve been sensing for a while that Lopez would be dealt this fall, and he’d likely be dealt first for pitching. And even if Bavasi were canned this October, the next guy would be told to deal Lopez a la Carlos Guillen.
And that would be a disaster, of course, since Colorado or Cincinnati or Houston would grab him at a fire sale price, one of Bavasi’s patented high-risk low-reward pickups.
Jose Lopez for Jason Jennings. Jose Lopez for Rodrigo Lopez. Jose Lopez for Kirk Saarloos.
*shudder*
My unfortunate thought is that they’ve likely soured on Lopez to the point that he isn’t going to get a realistic chance to redeem himself anytime in the near future.
Which is particularly infuriating because a lot of what has reduced Lopez’s value (not entirely, but it was definitely a factor) was Hargrove’s misguided attempt to turn him into an opposite field slap hitter.
This is just a gut feeling on my part, and I hope to be wrong.
When trying to determine what the M’s will do these days, isn’t it best to choose the most illogical of all options? My money’s on them moving JLo.
Ibanez has no business playing 1B. Maybe as a one year stop-gap for a prospect coming up, but I don’t see Brian LeHair being a quality MLB first baseman. I know we all LOVED Johnny Hardhat, but the M’s should get with the times and figure out how to put a 35+ HR guy at 1st. I’d say Clement might head there, but there’s not enough power.
I would hope the team will move Raul to DH, move Vidro to play 1b (if they insist on keeping him) and allow Lopez to get another shot.
In my opinion, it will be extremely difficult to replace him without A) Overpaying for a “gritty” vet or overpaid FA or B) I have this fear it will take years to find a replacement for his glove and hitting potential. Quality 2B just don’t grow on trees.
This would mean dumping Richie and possibly trading Broussard (as I doubt he will accept another year of rotting on the bench). Morse could back up Vidro at 1b if need be.
It sounds just to the sane side of conspiratorial. I couldn’t help but have the image of the restaurant manager telling the wait staff to “push the veal.â€
#5 – maybe if they left his swing alone for awhile that might help? I have no idea what Lopez’s hitting issues are. He hit a ton of doubles in the minors. And while that doesn’t mean HOME RUN POWER in the bigs, it’s gotta be a decent indicator.
which is pure Mac, FWIW, so is that just the ballplayer mind-set?
Mac, of course, had the clasic Macism this morning:
“Manager John McLaren said he was “playing a gut instinct” by putting Lopez in the lineup Monday after an 0-for-4 Sunday.
“I want him to understand that I believe in this kid, I do,” McLaren said. “I wasn’t trying to bury him (by playing Bloomquist). I was going with the hot hand. And we won some games. Now maybe Jose will be the hot hand for us for a while.”
I’ve already posted on my theory that Sexson is leaving because he’ll be the fall guy for the season and the fans have already booed him. I still think he’s going, but I can’t imagine we’ll get anything for him, and will, in fact, have to eat most of his salary.
I was struck during the game last night when Blowers went on and on about how this is the second time Lopez has crashed in the second half. When Sims mentioned brother Lopez’ death, Blowers waited several seconds and just said something about how anything that breaks your concentration is a bad thing. I’ve also been struck by seeing Lopez standing among the rookies when he isn’t playing. He may have decided to take AJ under his wing, but I’m guessing he’s just not feeling like part of the team right now.
I could not be disgusted by the difference between hanging Lopez out and even now defending Richie as the guy who really wants to help the team. Give me a freakin’ break.
I think he’s got a lot of trade value. His contract’s not that much, he’s young, and obviously has a lot of talent. I’m not equally sure we’ll make a good trade for him.
The problem with trading Lopez for pitching is then having to spend more money (or another trade) to replace him. Sexson, Broussard, and Guillen can all be replaced internally. We seem to be in agreement that Vidro will not play 2B. So if Lopez goes, does anyone have suggestions about replacements?
P.S. #1 should read “or others” and “no guarantee”.
*sigh* The fewer ABs Bloomquist gets, the better this team will be. I like Willie, don’t get me wrong. But he really has no business STARTING or playing too much anywhere for a decent MLB team.
DMZ,
This isn’t so unusual. And I think you’re right to read between the lines. If you’ve ever read Peter King’s ‘Inside the Helmet’, there’s a section on Jimmy Johnson as the Cowboys coach. He goes into detail as to how he gives the radio guys ‘insight’ into what they were doing draftwise, and when the radio guy talks about it on air, and then the Cowboys do it, everyone talks about what a good draft they had. I think that consciously or unconsciously the M’s broadcast crew is putting 2 and 2 together and indirectly talking about it. It makes them seem prescient if they’re right, and the M’s faithful who listen will say, ‘yep, that was a good move, they’ve been talking about it since last September’. Manipulating the message is as important for these guys as it is for anyone else. Except for the idiot Sonic owners.
Maybe the broadcasters, or their producers, are aware of Jones’s popularity with a vocal segment of the fan base. They see the “Free Adam Jones” signs at the ballpark and probably read Geoff Baker’s blog (if not other blogs).
The love for Jones may simply be the broadcast teams’ way of saying “we hear you, don’t worry, keep watching.”
could even have let Detroit pick him up on waivers (oh man, does that look like a wasted chance in retrospect, but that’s not the topic at hand)
Strike ‘in retrospect’. It was retarded not to let Detroit pick up that tab, and it was obvious at the time.
I get the feeling that the team is done with Lopez. I also get the feeling that they feel like Sexson sucking is all (or mostly) due to this leg injury and that he’ll be back to suck again next year (or worse, have a good first half and get a massive contract extension).
Further I feel like the team is EXTREMELY proud of themselves re Vidro and are super high on him.
My initial thought was similar to what Tek in post #1 alludes to – maybe negotiations with Guillen are at an impasse and the PR machine is setting fans up for the possibility that Jones needs to take Guillen’s spot in the outfield.
(oh man, does that look like a wasted chance in retrospect, but that’s not the topic at hand).
I KNOW it’s not the topic, but I just can’t get past it. Worst. Move. Of. The. Season.
[how many times are you going to whip this horse?]
I think the explanation is more obvious: it’s part of the contract negotiations with Guillen. Jose would be nice right fielder at 21 million/3 years, and he’s probably asking for something in the range of 10 million per season, based on the Jermaine Dye signing. So the Mariners might either be using Jones as leverage (you can’t push us too hard, we’ve got Jones waiting to take your spot) or as a P.R. narrative in case they think fans will revolt if Guillen isn’t re-signed (we really wanted to re-sign him, but we couldn’t keep Adam Jones on the bench any longer). Either way, I’m fine with it.
One or all of the above….
(Though some of the scenarios require the Ms be Machiavelian enough to pull it off, which implies a competence that I’m not sure is there…)
i wish the guys in the booth would be more honest and to the point about the pitching as well…i’m sick of them making excuses about the staff…i would love to hear blowers say, “ramirez is just terrrible…why they keep sending him out there every fifth day is beyond me…he doesn’t belong on a MLB roster…” that would be classic…
Sexson is the most obvious choice to go, right?
Where does Broussard stand in all of this? Near as I can tell, he’s got one more year of arbitration eligibility. If Ibanez moves to first base, then Broussard really has no place on the team, but I have to imagine there would be a market for Broussard’s final year of arbitration eligibility.
Bender raises a good point, too.
The M’s talent evaluation process is so fundamentally flawed that they’re probably patting themselves on the back for getting Vidro and his shiny, meaningless batting average for “just a couple of minor leaguers”.
Which changes the entire picture of what this talk could potentially mean.
There seems to be only one GM who definitely wants Richie Sexson, and he already has him. So, how do the M’s get him off the roster?
Least likely: Sexson’s injury is more serious than thought, and he decides to retire.
Slightly more likely: Sexson is DFA’d.
Slightly more likely: Sexson is the core person in a trade, as in Sexson plus Low Level Prospect for Over The Hill Pitcher.
Slightly more likely: Sexson is a throw-in player in a trade, as in Wlad plus Sexson for Over The Hill Pitcher.
I don’t think any of these alternatives are especially likely, and expect Sexson to be in the M’s dugout on Opening Day, 2008.
Bender and Jeff Nye — They might be high on Vidro, and possibly other substances, but they are not high on him as a 2B.
Another thing on Vidro — Mac gives him days off to rest his legs, and he plays DH. I highly doubt that he even sees 1B aside from a spot start now and then.
That’s some nice detective work DMZ.
And most of all I’m really tantalized by your Ichiro comment. Looking forward to learning what it’s about.
Regarding Sexson, I got a bad feeling. With the “he was just injured” talk (baloney) going around, I think they’ll be foolish enough to trot him out there next year also (unless they’re “blown away” by an offer—ain’t ever going to happen for Sexson).
I can’t see the M’s FO being so subtle (it’s not really so subtle but the M’s FO have shown themselves to be pretty dense) to use this injury talk to try to make it easier to foist him on someone.
Sorry, should have been “to have made up this injury talk” at the end there.
What are the particular reasons J-Lo is in the doghouse? Lackadaisical play? Poor attitude? Slump-prone? Reasons A, B, & C? One would think that it’d have to be at least two of those reasons for him to achieve persona non grata status.
I’d have no problem with Vidro and Broussard splitting first base duties. I do have a problem with Raul in the field, even at first base. Vidro would be a better option, defensively. He may have no range, but he knows how to field cleanly and is a natural infielder who’s effectiveness is heavily reduced by leg injuries.
I think we’ll be surprised by the market for Sexson’s services. The fact that several teams (not just Detroit) claimed him at the waiver deadline suggests that folks are interested in acquiring him, even paying his full salary in 2008. The M’s need him off their roster if only to put another lefty bat (Broussard) in their lineup, and I’d be real surprised if they weren’t willing to kick in some cash this time around just to free the roster spot, and to increase the quality of player they may get in return.
As badly as the M’s need starting pitchers, too, I wouldn’t be too depressed if they traded him for a ‘meh’ overpaid pitcher.
While I’m pretty down on Lopez, too, and I don’t see him as having as much talent, offensively, as Carlos Guillen, I really would hate for them to give up on him like they did with Guillen. Give him one more year to get things together, and light a fire under him to make sure he’s capable of holding a job for an entire season. He’s got decent talent, and really needs to figure out the mental side of the game.
What I found odd about Blowers’ comments, though, were his thoughts on Lopez’s defense being pretty shoddy. Baker, too, mentioned this. Hasn’t Lopez’s defense been the one area where he’s really improved this year? Seems so to me…
Sad to say, but I think Sexson is more likely to return for 2008 than Lopez is. We’ve seen it before—if they don’t like a player’s work ethic/clubhouse demeanor (Are you out there Freddy? Soriano? Carlos?) they’ll dump them for below market value, particularly if they’re young and Latino. They’ll probably decide that Lopez is a bad influence on Yuni and Felix and let him go for peanuts, even though he’ll probably have a nice career. I don’t think they’d be foolish enough to play Vidro at 2nd regularly, and they’ll try to get rid of Richie but they’ll have to eat half his salary and they may not be ready to swallow that. They probably will play Jones in left unless he gets off to a bad start, but they’ll still have too many aging and expensive1B/DH types, and they’ll still play Willie ballgame too much despite his inability to hit. And there still won’t be any starting pitching in sight. Any guesses out there as to who will be next years’ HoRam and Weaver?
Lopez, through the ASB, was projected to be a +10 defender based upon UZR.
Paul, the Lopez and bad defense comments usually come up after he fails to turn a double play.
It is kind of like all the flack Randy Winn took for having a popgun arm, while ignoring how many runs he saved with his range.
The other really visible Lopez defense thing was the two bad tags (or lack thereof). The problem, of course, is that if you’re looking for faults, they are greatly magnified when they happen and that’s what you tend to remember. If they want to get rid of him, there’s no shortage of evidence from a second baseman, with as many chances as they get. I think they’d be crazy to get rid of him, but then I’ve used that “crazy” word a lot when watching the Mariners’ management this year.
Why is everybody so down on Ibanez as a 1B? I admit I’ve never seen him there, but he’s played 135 games at 1B in his career without awful stats. He was a C/1B at one time in the minors which suggests he had OK hands at one time. If he had a winter to work and prepare himself, why do people assume he couldn’t be an adequate 1B? Being a terrible LF is not a reason to believe he can’t play 1B at least as well as Sexson.
#35 – I know a fella who spends quite a bit of time in the clubhouse (on and off) and apparently Soriano was an a**hole. Normally, teams seperate off into english-speaking and spanish-speaking cliques but Soriano rubbed everyone the wrong way. My buddy told me early last season he was gonna be a gonner sooner than later.
I really like Broussard. He certainly deserves a shot at playing every day.
Tek @ 13 says:
“The problem with trading Lopez for pitching is then having to spend more money (or another trade) to replace him. Sexson, Broussard, and Guillen can all be replaced internally. We seem to be in agreement that Vidro will not play 2B. So if Lopez goes, does anyone have suggestions about replacements?”
Asdrubal Cabrera. Oops, wait a minute . . .
But seriously. I try to ask myself what Branch Rickey, one of baseball’s all-time great talent evaluators in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, would do in such a situation.
And I know what it is. He’d let Guillen walk and take the draft choice, *and* he’d move Ibanez and his 100 RBI. His theory was that it is better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late.
The problem for the M’s is that Rickey always had talent in the pipeline — younger, cheaper, hungrier players — to replace his veterans. The M’s don’t have a second baseman, unless you count Yung-Chi-Chen, who missed all of 2007 with an injury.
They’re better keeping Lopez and trading someone else. They could replace Ibanez with Jones and Guillen with Balentien. Broussard must have at least *some* trade value. Vidro and Morse could platoon at 1B. That strategy would rely on Jones and Balentien picking up the power slack.
I don’t think anyone expected Guillen to perform this well *and* not be a cancer. My bias (and I admit that it *is* a bias) is toward those younger, cheaper, hungrier players.
In the case of Balentien, even Dave has said that his potential optimum upside is Magglio Ordonez. Unless Dave has changed that assessment, and certainly he can answer for himself, I’d sure as hell roll the dice with that.
Reports from Ibanez’s 1B time at KC is that he was aaaaawwwful even when he got PT. His spot appearances there have been really ugly since.
Now, the issue would be if he knew he was converting and could work out for an off-season (and through spring training, and so on) he could be passable. I don’t know that.
Here are the vibes I’m picking up:
- Everyone’s down on Lopez. This is the same thing that happened with Guillen. Clearly, the organization wants him gone, and he’ll be gone.
- I haven’t detected the same anti-Sexson feelings from the organization that I’ve detected w/respect to Lopez, but you have to believe he’s gone, too.
Based on the above, I think they’ll put Vidro at 1B, DH Ibanez, and put Jones in LF. Vidro, as a former IF, has the chops to play 1B, and Raul’s defense is indisputably bad (the org might not understand how important that is, but they do know it’s bad…).
I’d bet on them obtaining an overpriced, mediocre, 2B in trade or free agency, according to the now-familiar “We Have a Hole That We Must Fill And We Will Think Of Nothing Else Until We Fill It” mode of operation. Ahhh, to have Asdrubel Cabrera back…
I’m not so much interested in what the M’s should do, or could do — I’m interested here in what they might be up to, prepping everyone for a Jones ascension.
Ummm… do you have detectors in the org, or are you working off the same information everyone else is?
#40 I heard essentially the same thing about Soriano—which I think proves my point. If they don’t like somebody, they won’t hesitate to dump him for less than he’s worth on paper. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, just that they seem to weigh personality and demeanor heavily when making personnel decisions. And they flip side is that if they do like someone (say, Ibanez), they’ll keep playing him in LF even when it’s obvious to even the casual observer that he can’t handle the position anymore.
It’s been obvious to me for some time that the broadcast team is the Front Office’s pr department, much more so than in past years. That’s why the radio broadcast has become so unlistenable.
Nevertheless I caught a broadcast one recent Sunday when Norm Charlton went through a list of possible pitching call-ups from the farm. Apparently he’s some kind of inhouse pitching consultant and had just returned from a tour of the bases. When he got to Rick White, who I had no idea was even in the system, he went out of his way to give praise. And guess what — a few days later Rick White was with the team, killing us.
The incident demonstrated two facts: Norm Charlton has forgotten everything he ever knew about evaluating talent (if he ever knew anything at all) and that Rick White would soon get a promotion.
The bottom line for me is that the broadcasters have evolved from unabashed homers to manipulative pr agents. And somehow the team thinks that’s a good thing. Hurl.
#39 – Because Ibanez is 35 and his bat can’t carry the position. There’s really no excuse to trot an average offensive player out to 1B everyday. And at this rate of decline ol’ Raul will be lucky to be an average hitter next year. He’s been great, seriously. Last year was awesome, but this is what happens to ballplayers getting into their late-30’s. One year it’s all over for them.
For what it’s worth, I think CCW has a pretty good take on what is likely to transpire. We’ll probably take somebody’s overpriced 2nd baseman off their hands and watch Lopez outperform him somewhere else. I think Jones will get a chance to play, but it also seems likely to me that we’ll continue to underperform the league at 1B/DH regardless of who mans those spots from among, Richie, Vidro, Raul and Broussard.
I think it is a non-issue, as I think they are going to replace Guillen. I expect Lopez to stay, Sexson to stay, and Ibanez to stay where he is in the field, because Bavasi’s stubbornness with people he picked up for long contracts has become almost legendary at this point. Guillen is the only one whose contract is up, so they can replace him without Bavasi admitting he was wrong about anything else.
Okay, but now you’re arguing something outside the scope of the question — a Lopez-for-overpaid vet doesn’t open a spot, and you still need to make one more move.
The issue is what the plan is to get him playing time next year.
Ummm… do you have detectors in the org, or are you working off the same information everyone else is?
Oooh, but you made this post wide open to the mind readers and clairvoyants when you titled it “Read the tea leaves with me.”
Note to mind readers and clairvoyants: Please show some restraint.
Here’s my opinion on what they’re up to…
Let me throw out some assumptions before I make my point that will help.
1. Sexson/Vidro are untradeable during the summer…nobody wants them nor their salary.
2. Lopez: Still too young to give up on.
3. M’s DESPERATELY need pitching.
Based on that, the M’s are prepping fans for the day when they trade the face of the franchise, Raul Ibanez. They state that it was time for him to make way for the up and coming superstar Jones (who’s time had come). They pick up a pitcher to bolster the starting pitching. Raul is 35 years old and it was time for him to go.
Why would teams trade for him? Left-handed bat that still shows some punch (especially with the last two months of the year). Someone who is relatively cheap.
DMZ—if you’re asking for my take on who goes, so both Jones and Ibanez can play, I think they will try to move Sexson and/or Broussard. I think they (wrongly) think that Vidro has been great and that Raul can still play. But the concession will be that Raul won’t be in left anymore.
Okay, we’ll toss that on the pile of possibilities, but uh… there’s no way they’re trading Ibanez. Unless ownership changes, they want to make sure he retires a Mariner.
#53—It’s too logical. I agree that Raul is the most tradeable because of his affordable contract (is he REALLY cheaper than Vidro?), but I just don’t see them going there. They’re more likely to eat Richie’s salary……
And RE:Why the announcers have finally started giving opinions, I don’t believe it to be some inside knowledge. Rather, I think that these particular announcers are actually fans themselves, and the frustration has given way to at least mildly discussing some sort of dissatisfaction with the way the team has run. I even heard Dave Neihaus mention his disappointment with the team pitching Ho Ram on one outing, and he went on to pitch like 4 or 5 more times.
Imagine…giving the best prospect in your organization an entire year at the major league level to prove himself. I’ve heard that other teams have been known to do that.
That’s silly. The broadcast crew is employed by the team, travels with the team, talks to the team constantly, including off-the-record conversations outside standard post-game press gaggles.
Of course they have inside knowledge, and of course they toe the party line.
I don’t disagree in principal, but I wouldn’t discount the possibility that they cross that line once enough of an opinion builds up. It’s a long ballgame, there is a lot of time they need filled.
And yeah, they have inside knowledge, but does that necessarily mean they know who is going to stay and who will leave? Maybe on hunch alone.
Is the love for Ibanez in the fan base, in fact, real?
Yeah, count me in as one who thinks a part of this is some odd way of prepping fans in case Guillen decides to make his money elsewhere. It’s hard to imagine the M’s actually not wanting Raul out there in LF, considering how many positive comments his defense gets in the media. There’s no way he’s exiting the equation. Vidro either, really.
They may let Guillen go, which may or may not be a bad idea, and likely are paving the departure of Sexson or Lopez. I still believe it’s Sexson, though, since the M’s don’t exactly have a replacement for Lopez, even if they overvalue Bloomquist.
This is one thing the Ms front office doesn’t believe in. And it looks like something Bavasi DIDN’T pick up from the family.
The problem for the M’s is that Rickey always had talent in the pipeline — younger, cheaper, hungrier players — to replace his veterans.
No, the problem is that the Ms have no coherent idea of how to use younger, cheaper, hungrier to replace their vets, even when they’re more talented. They’ll hang onto the vets until WELL past the Use-by-date….
So DMZ, I guess I think the most likely answer to your question is that both Sexson and Lopez will be gone. I don’t think Vidro will be installed at 2B, though maybe at 1B, and I don’t think Raul will be in left with any regularity. Of course if McLaren’s still around…..(no, let’s save that for another time)
How did nobody else see this? Bret Boone is coming back!!! And all will be well…
Can’t we bring Guillen back under a team option for another year without signing him to a big dollar deal? And isn’t it obvious even to the FO that he’s a better player at this point than Ibanez or Vidro?
Sexons could have been picked up on waivers…..shudder. Now we’ll we pick up $5 million or $8 million of his salary next year?
Well, we could talk about how to interpret the various degrees of independence in the different broadcasters for ages. And it’s certainly true that their frustration can show – I think Uncle Dave’s Extended Ramblings are a huge indicator of how frustrated and checked out he’s become at times. But this isn’t that, it’s something else that requires, again, at least the tacit consent of the people who control their paychecks.
re: 17
How did the Mariners not let Detroit take Sexson?
You move Ibanez to 1B, Jones starts in left, your immediately better and $20 mil richer.
Was there any rationale?
Good lord. Playing Ibanez at first is obscene. It’s like when the Halos had Erstad there but without Darin’s ‘D’.
Also, I had no idea everyone was so down on Lopez until recently.
No. The way the one-year deal worked is that Guillen could shake himself free to go look for a better deal elsewhere.
As far as he’s concerned, it’s a multi-year deal or elsewhere…
I think Uncle Dave’s Extended Ramblings are a huge indicator of how frustrated and checked out he’s become at times.
When he concentrates, he’s more likely to get people’s names right, too. There’s an overall decline as he ages to be sure, but it also seems to fluctuate with how engaging the team’s performance is.
Also, Lopez’s inability to bunt effectively in a couple critical situations did a huge job souring the organization on him.
w/r/t Sexson – they didn’t want to let Detroit get him because they didn’t want to potentially help a wild-card competitor. It’s understandable, in its way, but yeah.
Spanky, the problem that I had with Bavasi is that we needed a power LH hitter and he got Betre and Sexson for the two usual power hitter spots. They worked out except for Sexson this year. He got Guillen and Vidro this year for the power hitter spots. They worked out but neither is a power LH hitter. I wouldn’t want the only power lH hitter to be Broussard.
[HA HA HA no]
19 had my thoughts, pretty much. Put pressure on the Guillen negotiations, vis-a-vis, “Who needs you, Jose? We got this kid you didn’t want us to call up in the first place waiting in the wings to take an outfield spot.”
Really? Not getting down a couple of bunts was enough to significantly change the organization’s perception of Lopez?
It’s like a nightmare I can’t wake up from.
That doesn’t make sense. Do they think that Guillen watches the broadcasts? Or cares? Plus, the Guillen deal by all accounts has been all but done for ages, and there’s no word that’s fallen through. Why now, rather than at the start of talks?
Derek says: “there’s no way they’re trading Ibanez. Unless ownership changes, they want to make sure he retires a Mariner.”
Is there something in Ibanez’ contract that says he’ll retire with this team?
I understand what you’re saying about this franchise wanting to be loyal to good players and fans…but didn’t they learn ANYTHING from letting all of the 90’s “Core” of players that retired M’s? Isn’t that what has gotten us into the mess we’re in now?
If you had said…No way they get rid of a productive left-handed bat…I would be more accepting of that situation. But to sacrifice the team for player loyalty…I just can’t believe they would do that.
OOORRRR…are you trying to say that they still feel the team won’t be good enough next year to attract fans without the “fan favorites” and so I should be preparing myself for another year like this one?
For me (and I would guess most fans and players)…Winning Trumps EVERYTHING else!
#41. I’m not too sure if letting Guillen walk would get us a draft choice.
#41. I’m not too sure if letting Guillen walk would get us a draft choice.
Not enough.
well, i guess Boonie jokes are verbotten here. sorry ’bout that.
As crazy as it sounds, the broadcasters are really not being told what to say or players to push. Over the course of 162 games the announcers are going to ramble on about countless topics, I wouldn’t consider it significant.
While the M’s control the broadcasters paychecks they are not nearly as involved in telling them what to say as people believe. The only time they are specifically directed to say something (or actually to not say something) is when it pertains to any possible injuries…the announcers are pretty much told not to say anything unless it comes directly from the organization. Other than that, they are pretty free to talk about what they want. Of course, any smart employee knows that it isn’t smart to trash your employer in public (Hello Steve Stone!), which is as much of a reason as any to side more with the team. It’s not any different than any other job.
He might be a Type B free agent which would be a 1st/2nd round sandwich pick.
…but didn’t they learn ANYTHING from letting all of the 90’s “Core†of players that retired M’s? Isn’t that what has gotten us into the mess we’re in now?
No. Partly yes.
…are you trying to say that they still feel the team won’t be good enough next year to attract fans without the “fan favorites†and so I should be preparing myself for another year like this one?
Nope. They want Ibanez to retire a Mariner. Unless there’s a sea change in their opinion of him as the face of the franchise or the people who hold that opinion give up the team, he will.
I think you are overthinking this, Derek. The producers are telling the broadcasters to talk up Jones in an effort to keep interest in the team while they play out the string. Jones not only has a fanbase, he should get some playing time down the stretch, so the broadcast is using him to drum up excitement for the last two weeks . . . as well as deposits for next year’s season tickets.
Ibanez is the new Dan Wilson. He’s not going anywhere.
No one’s arguing that Tim Hevly, say, walks into the broadcast booth and says “Slag Lopez today”.
But they crew pushes the team, promotes its view, and doesn’t trash players except in the rarest of circumstances.
I explained why this is weird in the post, though.
Also, in regards to free agents, it’s a good tool for ‘less financially endowed’ organizations. You sign middling guys for one year then either trade them at the deadline or let them walk and get the draft pick. On the other end, the problem the M’s run into signing all kinds of free agents is LOSING that first round pick (thank you pat gilick).
I may also agree with 87
The producers are telling the broadcasters to talk up Jones in an effort to keep interest in the team while they play out the string.
I disagree this is the case, but say that it is for a second. If the team didn’t like Jones, or regarded him as trade bait, they’d absolutely tell the producers to tone it down, and this drumbeat wouldn’t be going game after game.
Maybe, but you can see that the rest of this season has been dead as far as ticket sales go – in comparison to what they had originally anticipated for Sept. Hell, look over at LL – Far fewer people are even commenting anymore because no one is watching the game. Giving people hope to see AJ doesn’t seem totally out of the question.
Although, admittedly, it would be a pointless conspiracy.
That’d be dumb, though — they’re not playing Jones now. Jones gets to be a defensive replacement. They’re not selling tickets or bringing in viewers now by hyping him up, and if they’re doing that now they’re only setting themselves up for more disappointment if he doesn’t get a job next year. It doesn’t make sense.
I agree with DMZ about why hyping AJ for this season doesn’t seem reasonable. I also don’t see why AJ’s going to winter ball if he’s just trade bait. He’s done a creditable job while he’s been up here. I’m still hanging on to the dream that they’re planning on him starting in LF next year.
This discussion reminds me a little of discussing the presidential election next year: we’re still a long way off. Whether the organization has or hasn’t made up their mind regarding the logjam, there will be plenty of time to spin the decision once they’re ready. Memories simply run short for losing ballclubs and their fans in the doldrums of September.
If the team trades Richie Sexson and promotes Adam Jones, they’ll switch the banners on Safeco the next morning and the former will be lost to history. They’ll sell off the excess jerseys for ten bucks in the team store, talk up the Proven Veterans signed in the offseason, and it’ll be business as usual.
Wow, it took 96 comments for someone to tell us not to discuss the topic. Awesome. Thanks. You’ve checked that box off, well-done.
Also:
Jones is already with the team, so there’s no promotion.
There aren’t banners on Safeco Field.
(I have the Dodgers game up on MLB.tv, btw, watching the LA version of Jones scorch the ball again – he just turned beautifully on an inside pitch for a double)
I try not to listen to the M’s commentators anymore. Dave Sims KILLS me and Uncle Dave just makes me sad now. The other night my wife was like, ‘he’s not making any sense’. Inside, I shed a little tear.
Remember when Carlos Guillen was considered a malinger and fell into disrepute with the organization? At least there were intimations)–”too fragile” was one of the euphemisms I recollect. He did have a lot of down time, but he also had tuberculosis.
My point is this: it’s one thing not to like Lopez’s performance in the second half of 2006. It’s quite another not to like the second half performance after the guy’s brother dies.
I can understand some disappointment with Lopez, but an emotional catastrophe can have just as profound an effect on performance as tuberculosis. I’m okay with getting rid of him if the team finds an acceptable replacement, but these “clubhouse cancer” intimations, whether by the media or by the organization, suggest a profound inability to empathize.
Trade him or don’t trade him, Mariners, but cut the crap.
DMZ – There aren’t any banners, but they have those paintings all over the doors and walls on 1st Ave. outside the stadium. (that’s 1st, right? on the third base side?)
Haven’t read all the posts as I’d get crapped if I did so if this has been said before, I’m sorry to take up space. I think there is no doubt that a few guys are gone and you may have ID’d them. It is also possible that the questioning and complaining about the non use of Jones is reaching ears and they are just trying to damped the fire a bit.
Well written Celadus, well written.
Apologies. Several poorly chosen phrases. Regarding Adam Jones, I was trying to refer to his ascension into the starting lineup, but failed to do so. And as to the banners, I did mean to say the painted doors on 1st Avenue.
It wasn’t my intention to dissuade discussion on the topic. My intention was to reflect on the underside of the organization’s penchant for idolizing its key players. Players cast off before their time or who have found success with future clubs seem to be (with the exception, of course, of Griffey Jr.) excommunicated from team history.
I just feel that when the changes are made, they’ll be made unapologetically and with no reference to any kind of previous discussion. Afterwards, no reference to the discussion will be made. It’s the kind of attitude designed to prevent opposing arguments, including this one. It’s too bad, because I think these arguments are useful, and I’d like to think someone is listening.
If they do get rid of Lopez, they’ll point to his performance and say it’s evidence of the inconsistency of young players.
Hm. Wonder if it would occur to them that it’s evidence of youth’s inconsistency caused by THEIR handling of young players.
Nah.
Fascinating discussion, Derek. I’ve noticed more chatter about Lopez “not getting it done” lately too, and clearly the Jones talk has increased about 100 fold (actually before the all-star break Blowers was explicitly saying things like, “his time will come” and “there will be a spot for him on the team eventually” – a sort of just be patient/pacify the wolves in the free Jones camp kind of chatter that has now morphed into a brand of Jones advocacy).
My guess?:
Jones is put in left next year. Ibanez to first. Broussard gone for sure, and Vidro splits some time with Ibanez as DH and maybe works on playing some first/helps at second on a spot basis – Baker believes the organization is against Vidro every day at second. I think they look at Vidro and think that model might make Raul more consistent – less to worry about in the field gets you a few ticks in the slugging/production department.
I think the M’s will not get rid of Lopez ( I really do buy them giving him a few month pass during the Spring and April-May given the situation with his brother – Dave and Blowers discussed exactly that last night, so they clearly haven’t any inside information that he’s gone, and Blowers roughly suggested what I’ve just guessed about). I do think they bring in a seasoned veteran who can play second and give Lopez a reason to perform. I think they’ve bought into his lack of concentration as the main culprit and view a challenge to his job as a way to motivate him.
This is also the organization that last year sent out a letter to season ticket holders talking up upcoming stars of the team, namely Soriano and Snelling. Look what then happened. If your trying to read between the lines this year, good luck.
That said my money on Sexson and Lopez playing elsewhere.
I’d go along with the theory that it has to do with preparing the fan base for the departure of someone. I’d assume Sexson, but Mac perhaps as well. Ie, Sexson had to go to make room for Jones, Mac had to becuase he couldn’t manage playing time. I’ll be really surprised if either Sexson or Mac returns next year.
They haven’t made a defacto Bloomquist/Vidro platoon at 2nd, so I think it’s less likely it has anything to do with Lopez.
Derek, I bet Jones starts at least 6 or 7 of the last 13 games. They are not adding any new viewers, just simply trying to hang onto the viewers still left. They have to run the season ticket promos no matter what, and right now, a bright shiny future with Adam Jones and Ryan Rowland-Smith (who has also been getting the love) is the best pitch they have now that the playoff priority means nothing.
I saw an Adam Jones sign at one of the Angels games, and a guy near Red had an Adam Jones sign during the last homestand (might have been the precursor to the Where’s Wlad sign).
I think maybe we’ve lost sight of DMZ’s original question. We’ve all discussed what the M’s SHOULD do. I think he’s asking, what WILL the M’s do?
Dave,
I get what you’re driving at…
They’ll dump Lopez, and move Ichiro to second base.
#85, the rankings are based upon 2 years of performance. Guillen’s performance in 2005 is close to his performance this year. His ranking for last offseason was a Type B, but near to Type C. However, he was graded as a NL outfielder.
What would we get if he is a Type C, free agent?
I think Sexson and Lopez and Broussard will all be gone next year, opening up a few holes. Raul likely to 1st, since they’ll need a 1st baseman and conventional wisdom says you can get away with a defensive liability playing 1st. They’ll re-sign Guillen, so it’ll be an Ichiro-Guillen-Jones outfield. Who will play 2nd? I’d give Nick Green a shot, but more likely Willie Bloomquist will get the shot.
I think the hype for Jones is driven more by trying to divert attention away from the present suckitude than anything else. Knowing who is going to be the odd man out is not even necessary to know at this point. And I’m sure they don’t really definitively know, nor is it relevant to start pushing Jones on the marketing front.
That being said, there’s no way that Sexson starts for the 2008 Seattle Mariners. The city hates him and the FO is pretty keen on marketing image.
I believe Type C was eliminated, or at any rate compensation for Type C was eliminated.
#112 – I don’t thing there are any Type C’s anymore. That got eliminated the last C.B. agreement.
Type A free agents are those in the top 20%; Type B are those in the 20-40% group. Type C free agent category is eliminated.
#108 – I don’t think we’ll be able to accurately guess about whether McLaren is gone before we see how he does in the last stretch. I only say that because we all thought Hargrove was gone in ‘06 and the team pulled an extension out of their asses for him last year. I have no sense of how they feel about him,though. I suppose it’s reasonable to think that Grover had a longer leash in the eyes of the ownership because of the number of wars in which he’s commanded troops . . .so maybe McLaren does go, but I think it’s only a probable thing if the team finishes with just few more wins. If they hit a hot streak, players and not the manager will be blamed for the late season collapse that shall not be named.
Maybe you should have deleted my post, Derek. As soon as I tried to say that the organization isn’t going to want to foster discussion about player activity, there’s a flood of people saying we don’t need to worry about it. We do need to worry about it.
One thing I find troubling about the organization is that it feels the need to justify its moves. Whenever a player is discarded, there’s always a reason for it, some reason the player disappointed the team. Carlos Guillen was too frail. Jamie Moyer was too old. In this case, while Derek initially questioned the 1B/LF/DH logjam (and I do believe that when Sexson or Broussard are jettisoned, they’ll find plenty of evidence to back them up) I admit it’s Lopez that worries me the most.
Good teams don’t feel the need to do this. Oakland didn’t trade Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder because they were disappointed in them: they did it because they felt it made the team better. This is the only justification a team should have. The Yankees forced Bernie Williams into retirement because they had other players that gave them a better chance to help them win. Could you imagine the front office here making a decision like that?
#117 – I’m guessing McLaren’s gone unless he can pull a rabbit (or a playoff berth) out of a hat. He seemed genuinely emotional about the HoRam thing – it seemed like it just pained him to take the guy’s job away from him. Bavasi delegates a lot of authority to the field manager, I would suspect he (Bavasi) is aware that having a manager who agonizes over personnel decisions is a very risky operating model.
Just my own opinion but I don’t think he’s coming back & it wouldn’t shock me if they’re at least prepping the narrative for why.
Well why aren’t there? To me that’s the relevant question.
Bernoulli – Totally correct. My BIGGEST issue with the M’s are the people UP the ladder from Bavasi. There’s a messed up culture there. Ever wonder why we have a hard time attracting quality free agents? Beautiful stadium, beautiful city, good fans, lots of money. The higher ups seemed far more concerned with keep all our old friends around than trying to field the best team they can. I loved Dan Wilson. I choked up a little bit at that last game he played, where he came out and warmed up Wash. But good god. The A’s would’ve jettisoned him years before hand. When teams suck a**, fans like old faces. But really, they want a winning team.
edit to my last post. It was Moyer he was warming up. Sorry, i was ranting.
Not to nitpick, but aren’t there banners by the home plate entry?
I seem to remember seeing Rrrrrrrrrrraul on one of them, but that may just be the moonshine talking.
Assuming there’s an effort by management to promote Jones through their mouthpieces, I haven’t detected anything analogous regarding McLaren. (i.e. judging/second-guessing him to make replacing him more palatable to the masses) Perhaps this is an indication they’ll give him another shot next year. And for the conspiracy theorists, could this be related to Mac’s promotion being a factor in Ichiro’s re-signing, thus retaining Mac becomes necessary to placate Ichiro?
How about Alexei Ramirez for the all-Cuban double play combination?
Derek,
From Baker’s latest blog entry, for what it’s worth:
“Relax, Lopez isn’t going anywhere. He’s had a terrible year offensively and had mental lapses in the field. But he’ll get next season to sort that out. I’m sure his brother’s death had something to do with it. There’s just too much of a connection in dates between the death of his brother and his statistical slide. But Lopez will have to work his way out of this. Jose Vidro is a non-factor in this discussion. The team feels he can’t play more than once or twice a week if his legs are to stay healthy.”
Baker doesn’t sit in on front office meetings, so I take it for what it is, a beat writer using his sense of things to answer questions, but it’s something to add to the discussion.
as Derek has mentioned, of course the broadcast team will talk up the company line– just like every other broadcast team employed by an MLB team.
Norm is employed by the Ms as a special-assignment instructor for minor league pitching; IIRC, what he liked about White was his veteran-ness, and that he (Norm) knew him a little personally.
when did they ever say Moyer was too old?
forced into retirement only in the sense that he wanted to play for the Yanks and no one else…. he’d gone back to the Yanks in ‘06 at a discount, ignoring other offers
Interesting post, DMZ.
I see your point about it being puzzling. Acknowledging that they just might have stopped making any kind of sense months ago, it’s still fun to dissect it.
Weirdness:
- They talk about Jones deserving to start, etc. but not, oddly, right now.
That’s a weird position to take for a team that was in a near-historic collapse and now pretty much out of it… both situations that scream for more playing time for Jones.
But they only talk about the near future, not now… and not based on any need for more development time.
So… like you said, what is going to change between now and next spring that makes Jones starting a no-brainer?
And, more importantly, why the need to justify it?
I agree that most explanations don’t seem to fit quite right.
Most of them in this thread, I think, don’t feel right.
- At this point it’s pretty clear, I’d think even to the M’s, that they wouldn’t have to spend any energy at all on prepping the fan base for the departure of Sexson or Lopez. The fans wouldn’t blink if those guys were gone.
Plus, I also think that explanation is one step too complicated to fit… no one is going to follow the logic of Jones replacing a first or second baseman, even if it was Ibanez moving to 1st. (please, God, no.)
So that leaves a change in the DH or outfield.
And that’s when I start to really not like at least one of the explanations that does fit. And I think you don’t like it either. But I’ll leave that be.
So either they think the fans would be far more sensitive about losing Vidro than I think they would be…
Or they’ve decided to not keep Guillen.
Or, hey, is there any possibility that Ibanez wants out? That they want him to DH and he won’t?
It started so early, and so oddly, that it just seems like it’s something they think the fan base is not going to like at all.
Which really narrows the possibilities.
Re: Ibanez, fan favorite… so embarrassing to see the total, organization-wide hard sell of Ibanez and Edgar II and watch it fall so comparatively flat. I always think it’s a mistake to try and force that… let the fans choose first, then make your marketing decisions. And, hey, don’t we have Ichiro?
If we’re trying to interpret the broadcasters, we may have to consider the context. IIRC, Dave Sims is only signed through this year. Maybe he has decided he’s not coming back, or been told he’s not coming back. In either case, he’d feel more free to express honest opinions. And most of that honesty (although not all) seems to be coming from him.
So, Ichiro for Santana and _______: fill in the blank.
Minnesota isn’t willing to pay to keep their own high-ticket center fielder, why would they trade for ours?
Ichiro! will retire a Mariner.
Jerry Brewer, in his Seattle Times column, raises some valid points that have been seen many times here:
“Morrow, the 2006 first-round pick, needed to be developed in the minors as a starter instead of used as a major-league reliever this season.”
“The Mariners gave Jarrod Washburn $37 million in 2006, and guess what? He’s still Jarrod Washburn.”
Of course, he may not be spot-on with everything, but in general, a reasonable piece.
So, Ichiro for Santana and _______: fill in the blank.
Wear a bandana? O, Susanna? Sweet Home Alabama?
Sorry. Back to work now.
Maybe we’re on the wrong track. What if this has everything to do with a change involved in the announcer culture and nothing to do with the players involved? Suppose the M’s actually listened to the fans complaining about Rizzs and Valle and what stupid shills they were and decided to tell the new announcers they are not just there as rah-rah guys and are free to express some healthy criticism of what management is doing on the field. Couldn’t that explain why Sims and Blowers are willing to insinuate that Jones should be playing and Lopez should be given some time off to sort out his life (oh yeah, and that Richie needs to go someplace else)? Nah, that can’t be it…….
I was just guessing that’s something along the lines of what John in L.A. meant. Or DMZ’s cryptic comment.
I hope that #128 John in LA is right, when he speculated that Raul does not want to be a DH or platoon…like Guillen said… and Raul IS reading and or listening to “we bloggers” that he is “not wanted in Seattle because of his defense” and “Raul can’t hit lefties” … thus Raul has asked to be traded, and thus there needs to be someone to take Raul’s place…AJ.
Rizzs and Valle and what stupid shills they were
All announcers are shills for the organization, at least at some level. Rizzs/Sims/Blower etc. seem pretty par for the course for what I’ve seen/heard listening to the mlb gameday feeds over the years.
Sexson will be traded to Detroit for a sack of coal and a lifetime membership to the Cheese of the Month Club. Lopez will play one more year at 2B for the M’s, then move on to have a fine career in Minnesota during which he’ll finish 3rd in Gold Glove voting in 2011.
Why is it so hard for people to grasp that the M’s broadcasters are employed by the team? They are not journalists. Unlike say an ESPN crew, they are not supposed to be objective.
I still think Derek is reading too much into things. The M’s can let the broadcast crew talk up Jones in the name of keeping fan interest without making a definitive promise that Adam Jones is the opening day leftfielder, or telling the broadcast crew of their secret plan to dump Sexson this offseason.
I still think Derek is reading too much into things. The M’s can let the broadcast crew talk up Jones in the name of keeping fan interest without making a definitive promise that Adam Jones is the opening day leftfielder…
Yes, but they are employed by the team – commenting that AJ needs to play more is an implicit criticism of management. They’d tend to tread lightly here. It’s not the same thing as the Niehaus comments that Rick White has been getting shelled or that Weaver is pitching BP, basically one-time unscripted criticism – they’ve apparently been beating the drums on this with some regularity.
I don’t think it’s reading too much into it to wonder if this commentary is setting the stage for a future move.
139 – Who doesn’t grasp that?
And why can’t a broadcaster be both employed by a team and have self-respect?
There are plenty of examples of employers hiring talent with an understanding that they will not overly interfere in that employee’s duties.
It happens all the time – film directors, architects, all kinds of talent-based positions.
There is no reason that just because you’re employed by the team that you have to be a mindless shill.
See Scully, Vin.
That said, I don’t know what the Mariners’ broadcasters are or are not told to do.
Everybody has their own line. I prefer my team’s broadcasters to feel a little more objective in their evaluation. I don’t like to feel like I’m listening to a three hour commercial.
Oh, sure….but what evidence do you have that the Mariners are one such employer? Plenty of others that aren’t…and given the way the team is run….
“Everybody has their own line. I prefer my team’s broadcasters to feel a little more objective in their evaluation. I don’t like to feel like I’m listening to a three hour commercial.”
No, you and I don’t but I bet Chuck Armstrong does.
There is no reason that just because you’re employed by the team that you have to be a mindless shill.
See Scully, Vin.
Vin Scully does pitch Dodger & Dodger related items pretty frequently and always has. The difference is that he (and Niehaus as well) have absolute job security since they have become so affiliated with the organization. Since the clubs can’t and won’t fire them – and everyone knows it – they are free to make a few more disparaging comments when they see fit without having to worry about putting food on the table. It probably doesn’t mean that Scully/Niehaus have more integrity than Blowers/Sims/Steiner/Monday have, just that they are fundamentally in a different position.
A couple of years ago, LA booted Ross Porter to the curb with hardly an explanation. A couple of people complained but not to the degree they would have had it been Scully. You have to appreciate that he (Scully) and Niehaus are just in a fundamentally different situation.
142- “Oh, sure….but what evidence do you have that the Mariners are one such employer?…”
I never said they were. I rather doubt it, actually. That wasn’t my point at all.
“No, you and I don’t but I bet Chuck Armstrong does.”
No doubt.
144 – Of course Vin Scully sells Dodger products, and the products of sponsors.
And Vin Scully has always been what he is, so job security is a bit of a mislead.
Besides, the point was that being an employee isn’t something that brings automatic absolution or that anyone here is having trouble “grasping” the concept or employer/employee.
and as many of us have learned, the M’s broadcast team can seem to be the epitome of objectivity compared to what other broadcast teams spout–
or are told to spout, if the NY papers’ belief that YES’ head Filipelli sent down specific orders to blast Alex last season is true
It appears to me with the timing that perhaps the negotiations with Guillen have hit abit of a snag. The out burst regarding the Jones callup may have dimmed the front office view regarding him.
The beginning of educating fans about the new great talent Jones.
No small point alluded to but not said. Who does Ichiro want next to him?
I hope Lopez returns. Although the Doublemint twin commerical hasn’t been running much at all. If one can glean anything from that.
it came on just as the game ended last night…
And Kemp just smacked the ball again.
Can we talk about a somewhat related issue? How come the Mariner front office seem to be developing a track record of having problems with Hispanic players? Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and now Jose Lopez. It just seems odd to me, and dangerous given that the complaints are eerily similar (“these players lack discipline”) to destructive stereotypes about Hispanics that pervade our culture subconsciously (and unfortunately, for some consciously as well). Also, they complained about King Felix being lazy last year.
These are the same stereotypes that seem to consistently get “non-threatening”, negligibly talented white players labeled “scrappy” (Yes, I’m looking at you Sweet Willy B.)
It’s not all about race, and I’m not saying that anyone in the Mariner front office is racist. Nor do they seem to have a problem with all ethnic players. I’m just pointing out what I perceive to be the makings of a dangerous trend.
w/r/t Guillen, again, the only rumors since Guillen’s one-time outburst on behalf of other struggling hitters have been that it’s on the verge of being done. No setback rumors or anything.
Let’s set aside the racial/cultural issue for now. I promise we’ll come back to it.
I believe that there are a few reasons that may be responsible for Macs qustionable line ups.
1) He is completely intimidated by the veterans on the team and doesn’t have the balls to go stand up to the alleged Veteran leadership. BTW how many of theses alleged veteran leaders have experience winning? Have any of them appeared in a word series? or a LCS for that matter. Wasn’t it Baker who commented that the verterans seemed a bit to compfortable losing.
2) He has always been the players friend. You know the guy who smoothes things over after the manager rips the clubhouse to shreds. An important figure but not a manager. I have seen it many times in business where the most popular guy is promoted to manager and the team goes into the toilet because he is to much everyones buddy to show any authority.
3) He is a complette idiot.
Hey but good news the rumors about Larusa coming over. Say what you want about that guy but he is one of the few who still understands how vital it is that a player looks good in uniform. I love that rating a players potential based in part on how they look in uniform.
Finally I called it a month ago that the local pundits would start blaming the M’s failure on the lac of experience in the bullpen. What a load of it. These are the same guys who think that how a coach is with the media is a good determinate on his ability to win games.
Ok that’s my diatrabe. I am surfe it makes no sense but hey i tore a muscle in my lower back the two days ago and have about 40 milligrams of Oxycodone in my system. Yikes!
um, I think it was just a little obvious last year that Felix had not exactly buckled down before the season began.
I’m with John in LA. Talking up Jones is all well and good, because he deserves to have a little hype before he shows us what he can do. I remember Jose Cruz, Jr getting quite a bit of hype before he became the everyday left fielder (only to be traded in the middle of the season, to the shock of m any).
The organization knows how to use their broadcasters to “feel” out the fans. This is probably just another attempt. We know Bavasi wants Jones to play, so I don’t know where that question comes up. The question is, then, as DMZ has said, who goes so he can play?
i believe Ibanez, Vidro, Sexon, and (gulp) Lopez are goners. Willy B., Brouser, AJ, JR.(Ken), and WLB (Wlad). will all be mixed around. shaken. stirred. but the one who really believes that’ll be the “ticket seller” is none to believed. I would tear up (again) for JR, just like I was 11 yrs old, again, like it was that day, earlier this year. Painfully I must even trade Jake Locker, WLB, & AJ for an ace like … the Twins City might find expendable… maybe …
sorry for the run ons and mis spelling I just get so wimpy when it come to JR.
ha ha oh wow.
Long-time reader (for years), but first-time responder.
1. Regarding the Lopez issue:
Has anybody suggested the possiblity of playing Jones at his originally drafted position of SS? I imagine that he still has all of the skills to play SS well. The Mariners should make him the starting SS. He could also back up in the OF. Kind of like Willie B, but a good hitter.
This allows Yuni to be the 2B. Talk about a strong middle infield, not just in hitting, but in fielding, and in speed. Yuni has played 2B before and has great range. Much better hitter than Lopez.
This allows Lopez to be the utility player, as he has had experience at 2B, 3B, and SS. If he develops into a better player, then he can work his way back in to the starting lineup. In the offseason, he likely will be offered in a trade for starting pitching, with some combination of Sexson, Broussard, Clement, or Balentien…whatever it takes to get a really good starter. Probably will remain on the M’s unless he helps us land a top level starter.
2. Regarding the Sexson issue:
Sexson is gone. There are teams that will pay him between 6-10 million, so the M’s will pay the difference and send him along. Maybe he will just go in an isolated deal, or in a package deal, but he is gone. Even if the M’s thought he might have a good season next year, I don’t think they could risk all of discontented fans Booing Sexson with every “swing and a miss”. Sexson’s presence on the team could affect ticket sales, and the M’s are all about making the mighty dollar, and making Safeco a Fun Fan Experience.
Therefore, the remaining starters (back-ups) at 1B, DH, LF are:
Broussard (or Vidro) will play 1B.
Vidro (or Ibanez) will play DH.
Ibanez (or Balentien) will play LF.
(Jones could play LF at times, to let Lopez play at 2B, and let Yuni play SS.)
3. The Guillen issue:
The M’s will Sign Guillen to a 2-3 year contract. His leadership and aggressive play seems to light a fire in the mellow Mariners. Good hitter, too. I think he is a big part of their success this season. I think he is a weak fielder, seems to misplay the ball a lot, but does have a good arm. Could DH later in his career.
4. The Vidro issue (not likely to happen but should):
The M’s should seriously entertain any trade offer for Vidro. Buy low, sell high. His value is at its peak. Allows Ibanez to be DH, and Balentien to be LF (perhaps Reed as 4th OF). Vidro has had a decent season, probably better than anyone expected. But I will be surprised if he has this much success next year. Only signed for one more year, and certainly cannot be in the long-term plans.
I tend to agree that if they thought Vidro should replace Lopez he’d be playing there now. My hope is that both Sexson and Vidro are shown the door at the end of the season, but that’s not likely to happen. That’s the only way that the M’s acquire a 1Bman with Power and keep Ibanez off the field/start Jones in the field.
I find it hard to believe that Guillen will not be retained. Not that I think he’s worth it.
Would they re-sign Guillen, play Jones regularly, and retain everyone else but Sexson?
It’s possible, but doesn’t look a whole lot better defensively. I don’t see this as improving something Mclaren has even noticed as something to improve this offseason, lack of patience by the hitters. The most likely I guess would be moving Ibanez or Vidro to 1B. Yuck.
FA’s:
http://mlb4u.com/freeagency.php?field=position
Where does anyone think a 1Bman is coming from?
If Clement is ready as a hitter, enough to learn a new position in the Offseason/Spring, I missed something.
A couple OF’s look marginally interesting (though Guillen actually looks a bit better to me than any FA OF) but I see no 1Bmen that are appealing at all.
An interesting thought about who could most easily be replaced, looking at available DH, 1B, 2B and OFers is one who’s been playing 2 of those positions. Alexei Ramirez is a 26 YO (this week) Cuban National who’s been playing 2B, and CF for Cuba (SS and CF in Cuba). Signing him could give the team some flexibility going in to the Spring, if he’s ready for the bigs. He hit .335 with a .574 slugging percentage including 20 HR this season for Pinar del Rio. He led the Cuban National Season in hits in ‘03 with the same team, but I can’t find the total number (nor AB’s/any other stats). Not sure about his height, weight, bats (saw him hit a HR RH on YouTube, Switch? probably not…)Anyone know anything else about him?
Jones isn’t moving back to the infield, kind of a worn topic.
Drayer said she asked Yuni about him, and he said that it had been several years since he had seen him play, but that back when he knew him, Ramirez was a 5 tool player– a good shortstop and even better centerfielder
JONES WILL NOT PLAY SS. EVER. AGAIN. Everyone should let it go.
from Prospect insider I got some answers about Ramirez. Basic idea that he’d probably be a .270 (up to) 25HR Corner OFer. If that’s the case, at best he could be a cheaper replacement for Guillen and the only one I’m looking at that might be reason to let him go. If he can play up the middle in MLB (which Jason said specifically he probably won’t) he could be part of a good DP combo with Yuni. Of course, if Lopez gets back on track there’d be no need for someone up the middle on the team.
Trade them both. Lopez going into the second half is like watching a four year old trying to hit the ball(let Morse or Bloomy take his spot). Sexson is just getting to the age were players decline and he is not going to have a record season even in his contract year.
As for Guillen, I am fine wiht his extension, it doesn’t garuntee he will start for the next 3 years.