Game 160, Rangers at Mariners
DMZ · September 28, 2007 at 6:48 pm · Filed Under Game Threads
Volquez v Weaver. Fortunately, the Rangers aren’t very good.
M’s run out Clement at DH again, because… I don’t even know. The 1B is Morse. Jones continues to be punished for God knows what. You stink, McLaren, extension or no extension.
Hey, let’s play an end-of-season would-you-swap-em, then…. Mayybe, yup, yup, nope but maybe… nahh, no way, sure, no, why not.
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and I really really hoped to win one of the signed George Sherrill items, as I am a longtime fan of The Pear.
#41-42: the recent Lou Love (‘ever since his blow up they’ve never looked back!’) reminds me of the “Dusty has returned them to respectability” comments in ’03, when the Cubs won their division (after a whole 5 years) with a record of 88-74 — the exact same record that Don Baylor’s Cubs had two years earlier, when they finished third in their division, and helped get Baylor fired halfway into the next year. At the best, the Cubs finish this year 86-76– in any other division in baseball, they are out of it.
So, here’s the 375,000 question:
Dave, how’s Clement’s batspeed?
If I wanted to be a wet blanket, I’d say that the two pitches Clement has taken deep were 91 and 88mph fastballs thrown by righties, and that this doesn’t disprove anything previously suggested.
But I don’t want to be a wet blanket. Those home runs were cool.
Somewhere between
“punished†– DMZ . . . “petulance†– scraps . . . “pissed off†– dugan . . . “born in 1985†– schtick . . . “bad sign†– scott19 . . . “don’t fundamentally value†– jom thimsen . . . “good reach around†– hamnasty . . . “better idea in Venezuela†– jlc . . . “no clue†– vaughnstreet (nope, no groupthink here)
and
“0-10 w/7 Ksâ€
must lie some truth.
Perhaps McLaren played Ibañez in LF in a meaningless game simply because it was appropriate to play the team-anointed “fan favorite†on “Fan Appreciation Night.†You can diss those “Uâ€s all you want but each one represents a seat sold. And I hardly consider it “stupid†to load up LF-1B-DH with left handed sock.
I think Bavasi has indicated he sees a starting role for Jones in the M’s future. He’ll get his chance to play, no doubt.
And how about some credit for using J.J. in two tie games at home? Smart, and the team was rewarded for it. Maybe an old dog can learn new tricks.
As they say, wait ‘til next year! Go M’s!
Well, I will say this: not every guy in the majors can punish a pitcher for throwing a meatball — especially to dead center in Safeco on a cold, damp, late September evening. Lots can, sure, but you certainly want to see the kid go yard on the gimmes. That’s the first step, the minimal requirement. I don’t know how that pencils out over the course of a season, but if he can catch a half-way decent game, he’s a hell of a match for Johjima (lefty with power and a righty pull hitter: go ahead opponents, pick your poison). Or a kick-ass option in a trade. Either way, I’m glad they’re giving him his ABs in these otherwise-meaningless games.
88mph and 91mph meatballs, thrown by righties, aren’t supposed to be hit for homeruns?
I thought the bitch was that he hit soft tossing lefties in the minors.
I’m with Joser. I’m a bit skeptical of Clement’s abilities, but you can’t help but be excited that he’s at least shown the abilities he has so far. We all know small sample sizes, and we know what we’ve heard about his bat speed, but man, it’s hard not to be excited. I’m not about to kick Kenji out from behind the plate, but strong performances from AAA call-ups is never a bad thing. The kid’s power is pretty impressive. With an eye toward the future and the naive confidence of a simple fan, I’m excited.
Go Jeff!
155 – There’s a reason in every game not to play AJ or any other callup. My frustration was not with this game in particular. I don’t understand the reason for giving him sparse opportunity this season, then sending him to winter ball. The lineup of regulars had, shall we say, a little trouble down the stretch; there were an awful lot of people not connected to this blog that were asking for a shakeup during the slide. Call it group think if you want, but I don’t see a need to disagree with a sound idea just because it’s popular.
I’m happy Clement and Morse and Jimerson got in the game, and I’m happy that JJ got the win tonight.
Mr Sullivan – your eye is probably keener than mine, but I noticed much the same thing. The pitch from Wood that Clement crushed tonight was a thigh-high gimme over the heart of the plate. The one from Borowski on Wednesday was much the same.
But in defence of Clement – how much more could he have done with them?
Group think does not mean what those of you throwing it around think it means.
The idea of applying it to a website like this is pretty funny. They show their work everyday. Critical thinking is encouraged, almost required.
I know you don’t know what the term means, but there is a nice irony here. Most of the “group think” accusers tend to be of the “you’re so negative” group, a mainstream fan who resents the dissension and negativity caused by this sites and ones like it. And very much resents that they are asked to support their statements or opinions with facts or analysis.
Once you read the definition of group think, it should become pretty clear that if it that bell tolls for anyone, it tolls for you.
155: “Perhaps McLaren played Ibañez in LF in a meaningless game simply because it was appropriate to play the team-anointed fan favorite on Fan Appreciation Night. You can diss those “Uâ€s all you want but each one represents a seat sold.”
I find it laughable that you think there is any Mariner fan out there who would rather pay money to see Raul in left field and not AJ. It might be a stretch to assume everyone is informed of AJ’s god-status, but even in the absence of that, anyone who has a working understanding of being eliminated from the playoffs would equate playing the guys now who you’re expecting to see on the team next year.
Anyone that thinks Raul Ibanez is why we sell tickets is pretty much insulting everything about the fans who care about this team. Raul Ibanez is a solid, but very average player with a very average and deteriorating skillset… AJ is a star in the making. Playing the 36 year old Ibanez over the 21 year old Jones at this point in the season doesn’t do any justice to the fans or the team. If anyone wants to agree or give justification to playing Ibanez over AJ, they should be tarred and feathered. It’s also a bit insulting to assume that Mariners fans as a consensus are that nieve to our management’s crap-for-brains.
I find it laughable that you think there is any Mariner fan out there who would rather pay money to see Raul in left field and not AJ. It might be a stretch to assume everyone is informed of AJ’s god-status, but even in the absence of that, anyone who has a working understanding of being eliminated from the playoffs would equate playing the guys now who you’re expecting to see on the team next year.
You overstate your case.
Plenty of people attend Major League games hoping to see actual major leaguers, which equals (for many) “guys I have heard of.” If you are a father bringing your seven-year-old to a game for the first time, and he’s followed the games on TV and on the radio, he’ll have heard of guys like Ibanez — it would be impossible for it to be otherwise with the announcing teams in Seattle — and would be hoping to see him play. If not him, than certainly Ichiro, Beltre, and the other vets. Even if you don’t get to see all of them, those kinds of fans would be upset to see what would look like a minor league team take the field.
Don’t get me wrong — I don’t think that means management should play the vets over guys like Jones, Clement and Balentin who could legtimately be building blocks of the near future — but I understand that it’s not as simple a decision as saying that all Mariner fans will understand if you sit the vets down the stretch.
Those “naive” fans buy tickets too, and from the sounds of people here talking about boycotting games and such in 2008, management will be counting more on them in the future than ever before.
It’s also a bit insulting to assume that Mariners fans as a consensus are that nieve to our management’s crap-for-brains.
The attendence and revenue figures are compelling evidence against that argument.
heck, all you have to do is listen to local radio and hear the umpteenth (the gazillionth?) call asking ‘why don’t they play Willie more’…
Mariners parents of 7-yr.-olds, PLEASE: My son knows that Adam Jones should be playing and gets excited every time he does come to the plate. It’s time to talk to your kids. It’s difficulty to start the conversation but you CAN do it, too. Parents: the Anti-Drug.
p.s. Could not believe they PH for The Ignitor last night. Weren’t we all positive he would get another shot at hitting into the inning-killer?
161: Get off it. Okay, maybe groupthink was the wrong word (I wasn’t the one who used it first) – maybe (directly from the groupthink wiki entry) I should have used “mere instinctive conformity” instead. It would have been a far more accurate description.
161-
Use of “groupthink” aside, the point 166 may be making is that USSMariner.com draws a certain type of fan, a more informed type of fan who is willing to explore modern statistical and analytic methods to determine the best ways of building a sustainable winning organization, and has little to no patience with those who simply pass along conventional wisdom without being able to back up their arguments.
Which is great, and which makes for an interesting discussion here every day.
But don’t think for one minute that because most everyone here feels the same way, that the much larger population of Mariner fans follow suit. Listen to the radio. Look at the P-I blog. Just because there isn’t much disagreement here doesn’t mean that most Seattle fans agree with the arguments we make.
We tend to agree with each other — but that doesn’t mean the larger fanbase agrees with us.
166-
Actually, I was thinking I was replying more to 155. I had to read back to see what you were talking about.
And as far as instinctive conformity goes, I’d just like to throw out a few things that might look at it from a different angle. Take them or leave them.
1. Why take an opposing view to something you agree with? I’m not going to defend a dumb point of view just to be different.
Your arguments against conformity seem to imply that there are two equal sides to every issue. There aren’t.
This isn’t Hot or Not.
90% of people are agreeing because 90% of the time there is not much to disagree with.
Pretty simple.
2. If somebody knows more about some specific issue than you do, I feel like I have two options – listen/ask questions or go learn more about it myself.
I think it’s dumb to argue something you know less about. If Dave or DMZ are talking about advanced defensive metrics or our minor league prospects or any other of a hundred things I know little about… I’m not going to argue with them. And I don’t really want to listen to other less informed people arguing with them.
I learn nothing from that.
3. Respect. In some rare cases, there may be room for disagreement, but not necessary to argue it.
I have, from what I can tell, a completely different opinion on the steroid issue than at least one of the authors here. But they have valid reasons for not wanting it discussed, so hey, I don’t discuss it.
Why should that bother me? It’s their site. And no one else probably cares what I think about that issue anyway… and I don’t blame them. I barely care what I think about it.
167 – Totally agree.
And that’s a good example.
I would never go to a Willie Bloomquist fan site and say I think he sucks. Why would I do that?
I would not got to Raulrules.org (not real) and say “Play A.J.!”
I would not go to a website dedicated to homeruns and say “small ball rulez!”
No, you wouldn’t do any of those things because (a) you’re a reasonable person and (b) that’s the definition of “trolling.” But we have to be careful to distinguish between that kind of behavior and the person who arrives here with a head full of conventional wisdom only to have things (many of them dearly-held) turned upside down. This person is going to ask legitimate questions, sometimes indigantly — and we may be tempted to respond with something less than patience, because these are questions which we’re mostly tired of hearing, and which as far as we’re concerned have been fully discussed and settled long ago. So we come across as arrogant, or dogmatic, or victims of “groupthink,” and we cut the “debate” short. You see Dave do this from time to time, and I can’t blame him because rehashing the same old arguments for someone new to the party gets old very quick, but I think it falls to the rest of us to take our turns acting as the patient, sacrificial tutor. Of course, some people aren’t willing to re-examine long-held beliefs or question tradition: if they’re polite about it and just agree to disagree that’s fine; if not, well, Dave and DMZ are looking for help with the mod queue.
One note on the game:
When he got his second single of the night in the seventh inning, Ichiro became only the second player since 1900 to have at least 200 singles in a season. The other player? Ichiro, in 2004, when he set the single-season record of 225 singles (as well as the single-season hits record).