A-Rod, Johan, and Perception
So, A-Rod’s a free agent again. He’s going to get a lot of money again. He won’t get it from the Mariners, though – that’s for sure. So this post isn’t about bringing Alex Rodriguez back to Seattle. It won’t happen.
I have a question, though. There’s a large contingent of people in Seatle, especially in the local media, who have spent a significant amount of time lobbying for the Mariners to acquire Johan Santana, regardless of the price. It doesn’t matter that he’s in the last year of his contract or that he’s going to lap the field in terms of dollars given to free agent pitchers next winter. They’re fine surrendering every player on the roster besides Felix to get Johan Santana to Seattle. If it takes Adam Jones, Jeff Clement, and Carlos Triunfel, no problem – they’re just prospects. And if it takes $200 million to sign Johan for 7 years, well, that’s the market price for pitching, and this team needs pitching.
When it comes to Johan Santana, the talk about spending too much money on one player goes out the window. Chemistry is never brought up as an issue, and no story about Johan ever mentions that he’s never won a World Series title despite playing on some pretty good teams the last few years.
Meanwhile, good luck reading a story this winter that doesn’t mention A-Rod’s postseason failures. The amount of writers and talking heads that will disparage Rodriguez because of a personal dislike for him (earned or not) as a person is going to be staggering.
Why is it okay to blow up the farm system and the budget to acquire Johan Santana, but no one has any interest in throwing similar amounts of money at the best player in baseball – the guy who won’t cost you Adam Jones and a handful of good prospects? Are we really at a point where we’re just not interested in adding the best player in the game because he comes across like a pompous jerk?
I’m sorry, but for an organization that employs a lot of people who actually are pompous jerks, that reasoning rings a little hollow.
I know Alex Rodriguez isn’t coming back to Seattle, and I’m fine with that. I am, however, somewhat annoyed by the reasons the organization and a large percentage of people in Seattle don’t want him back.
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The media’s double standard is one thing, and the team has lousy reasons for not wanting to pursue Rodriguez. But unless the organization is seriously interested in spending what it will take to trade for and sign Santana, I am not sure Santana actually makes the point with regard to the organization.
I am probably one of the few Seattle fans who would welcome A-Rod back.
But I wouldn’t blame him one bit if he told Boras to not even return the Mariners’ calls, based on how shabbily fans here have treated him since he left.
And yeah, I don’t get the disparity. A-Rod makes your team better 150 games a year, even as amazing as Johan is, he can only help you when his spot in the rotation is up.
I would be fine with A-Rod. It’s Bonds that I can’t stand, and think would be a high risk of being an overpriced and aging time bomb.
I’d love Bonds in a generic sort of way, but we have Ibanez and Vidro and only one DH slot. And nobody, not nobody, will take them off our hands for us.
A-Rod is a marginally better idea, but I’m not one little bit convinced that he can go back to being a shortstop, and we already have a fine third baseman.
I’m one of those people who despised A-Rod when he left.
And I’m also one of those people who think he’s the greatest player in baseball now, and will wind up as the greatest player in baseball history.
The team that gets him is an apocalyptically better one. I’m not sure what price you put on that … but if you’re not willing to even consider the price, you probably shouldn’t be in the game.
And you know what? Honestly, I have no idea if he’s a jerk. And neither do any of you. The media has decided he is. But as a member of the media, I know better than to believe that.
I can only speak for myself and why I won’t root for A-Rod. To me A-Rod represents everything I don’t like about sports.
While this certainly may not be the case, it is my perception that Alex does not care about anyone other than himself (Right or wrong I’m not alone on this). He doesn’t come off as a club house leader, a passionate teammate, or as an individual who cares about the fans. Does that matter? No, not in terms of production, A-Rod will most certainly produce. But after spending seven years with our organization it seemed all too easy for him to leave. I’ll never blame an athlete for taking the money but it in my opinion he owed it to us (Seattle fans) to at least make it seems like it was a tough decision. A-Rod had his bags packed at the end of the season.
Nonetheless, after three seasons in Texas (where he continued to produce) the reason he left Seattle wasn’t enough to keep him interested and at that point it was more important for A-Rod to win. So where does he go? New York. To the team every team in major league baseball aspires to beat each year.
This blog teaches numerous people how to be an enlightened baseball fan. However, fans will always be a little irrational. We watch sports to be entertained. We root for the underdog and the guy whose short on talent. Our favorite players are the ones with the dirtiest jerseys at the end of game. We love the players who love the games we all wish we could play and show it by loving the fans. That’s not A-Rod and that’s why I won’t root for him.
With good health A-Rod will most certainly break some outstanding records and as a Mariner fan I pray that he doesn’t do it wearing our jersey.
I hate A-Rod. I despise him actually for many reasons too long to list here. However, if money was truly no object, I’d sign him in a shorter amount of time that it took to write these sentences. Why would anyone at this point expect the M’s management to think rationally? What have they done in the past few years that indicates sound judgment or creative thinking?
Wow, someone’s trolling for comments
Just kidding Dave. As for Alex, I don’t want him on the Mariners for the same reason I don’t want Carl Everett on the Mariners. I don’t respect either player as a person. Alex’s number one priority is getting paid. It has ALWAYS been that way with him. Not winning. Not being the best teammate. Getting paid. Those kind of players are meant to be on the Yankees roster keeping them from winning the world series. Let the Dodgers or Tigers have him. He flat out lied before signing with Texas. Hopefully the curse follows him throughout his career and he never gets a ring.
A-Rod’s going to the Angels. I believe the deal is already done.
That said, when he was with the M’s, I ran into him three times around town. Each time, he seemed like a pretty good guy. I don’t blame him for wanting to get the hell out of New York.
8: You should read Art Thiel’s book.
I don’t want the Mariners to sign Alex Rodriguez. I don’t want the Mariners to give up the farm to trade for Johan Santana. I have nothing against either player, and I believe I understand how valuable each guy is (and can overlook A-rod’s personality flaws, when balanced with what he can do on the field). Really, I just don’t like the idea of the M’s throwing around $100 million-dollar contracts. (Luckily, Ichiro’s contract is just a little less than that, so I’m happy to exclude him from that previous comment.) This team has a lot of holes to fill, and it’d be best if the didn’t put all their eggs into one basket.
I don’t like ARod, but I’d sure as hell root for him if he came to Seattle, and there are players like Bonds or Clemens I wouldn’t say that about. At least when he left here, he played out his contract. In a perfect world, all star athletes would be community leaders and little children would actually be visited by Santa every year. But that’s not how it works, and I’m happy with having players that stay out jail and play cleanly.
But bringing him would give us the same problem we’d have if we actually did land Santana, the same problem Texas had when they signed ARod. There just isn’t enough money to pay either of those guys and field a winning team around him. Some other team could do it, maybe, although a team like that wouldn’t pay the kind of money we’re talking about for a single player. But I can’t see the M’s doing it.
Count me out on A-Rod. If nothing else, he’ll command $30 million a year. Considering the M’s operate with a finite payroll I’d rather that money be (wisely) spent on other positions.
Yeah, 6, 7, and 8, you wouldn’t have taken the $250 million (Do you know how far that goes in Texas?). Because I’m sure you all have the standards and morals that A-Rod lacks. He got an offer he couldn’t refuse and accepted it, and in your eyes, this justifies hatred.
The media has never liked A-Rod’s practiced, polished image, so they’ve made him a villain, and apparently a lot of people have bought into it. Seriously, I’m pretty sure there are some people in pro sports who deserve this kind of treatment, but A-Rod isn’t one of them.
Meanwhile, Seattle cheers Griffey and boos the M’s when the Reds are in town. What a bunch of pawns.
I guess I would say I am a newer Mariners fan, moving here like only more than 3 years ago, so I wouldn’t be able to feel hatred and betrayal towards A-Rod. I just know he is still the best player in baseball at the moment, but also the richest players in baseball. I agree with the others, I have a feeling that either he has a deal set with anaheim, or going somewhere else. I wouldn’t mind seeing him on the team though. He won’t give 2007 numbers again, thats for sure, but he will definately be an all-star contribution, a player with veteran grit that is actually talented too. I would see a possibility of A-rod back at short and Yuni moving over to 2nd. But this is all speculation, it would never happen.
Enough A-rod stuff aside, I am seeing Dave’s logic in this. How writers are suggesting Mariners or other teams should sell their farm systems to the twins to have Johan for a year, while people are making A-rod look too expensive, despite the fact no one would have to part ways with their future for him. Either way, A-rod will get the huge pay day, and so will Santana, whether it would be with the Mariners or some other large market team one day, but if they want Santana a year before, they will have to give a premium package for him. I just think it would be painful to watch Clement, Triunfel and/or Balentien pound the ball in the Twins’ new stadium in 2009, though.
But I forgot to add, I would be more than thrilled to see a pitcher with Santana’s caliber on the mound pitching for the Mariners. He would probably serve as a good mentor for Felix as well. Possibily one day be a good one two punch.
10: And Art Thiel is an authority on what exactly?
I’m a rare ARod fan, and I’d love to see him back with the Mariners. Not only would he gives us an upgrade at 3B/SS/1B/Catcher (?), he would also cost a ton of money. Why is that a good thing? Then maybe the team would be “forced” to trade Vidro or Ibanez and go with a Balentein/Ichiro/Jones outfield. Oh, the humanity.
Ugh, enough EMOTION… this isn’t a fat camp, for crying out loud.
Though you wouldn’t know it form looking…
Is my memory wrong that one of the reasons that ARod left the Mariners was because he didn’t like the left field fence in Safeco? He did complain about it once or twice.
If I’m a great right handed hitter, playing in Safeco would be anathema to me, regardless of how much I am offered.
I wonder what the Vegas odds are for the Mariners acquiring BOTH?
The odds of both Santana and Arod joining the M’s?
About the same as Willie Bloomquist winning the home Run title.
I’m with #5 as far as loathing A-Rod when he left, yet acknowledging him as the best player in the game. And yes, he’ll make any team loads and loads better. And while we can’t presume to “know” if he’s a jerk or not, I’m not sure the same can be said of Scott Boras. Sure, it’s his job to get the best deal for his clients, but upstaging game 4 of the World Series? We’re beyond mere tackiness, here. Would you upstage the premiere event of your profession for personal gain? How would your colleagues perceive you? And I can’t believe that Boras acts without A-Rod’s consent, explicit or implicit.
So what are the odds that Bavasi throws a bunch of cash at Pettite when he opts out. Houston and the dodgers first rounders are protected if he goes home, or follows Torre. Losing the 20th pick would suck, but for him it might sting a little less.
When Fox and Major League Baseball don’t treat the World Series with respect, why should Boras or Rodriguez?
Why would we want to pay someone an obscene amount of money so when / if he does help us get to the playoffs he pulls his normal disappearing act. A-rod is a paper champion, and a terrible post season player.
.279/.361/.483 is awful let alone against superior pitching? And in only 167 PA! Actual performance and sample sizes be damned I guess.
Maybe I just missed some blatant sarcasm, at least I hope so. Teaches me to respond to posts just as I wake up.
I have mixed feelings on ARod. I hated how he left. But I hated how the fans treated him when he came back, throwing money and such. If you actually paid attention, at least ARod tried hard and such up until he left Seattle. Griffey half-assed his last half season and was still welcomed back like our long lost son. That part always got me a little riled up.
Anyway, even though I didn’t like how he left (or the fact that he left at all), I’d welcome him back. Of course, we’d have to figure out a way to make it work (trading Beltre and Sexson to the Yanks would be a start
). But I’d be happy to have him at 3B in Seattle. I felt like the Yankee fans didn’t even deserve him and all the playoff talk is overblown. He was pretty darn good here in several playoff series.
And regarding Johan, I’d only be down with it if an extension was involved. If we could get him giving up anyone but AJ (well several anyones) and lock him up for 5 more years or something, I’d be a happy guy. It’s wishful thinking of course, but that’s what’s nice about this time of year.
19 – Amen. Strange post today.
I was on the fence about wanting A-Rod back. What pushed me off the fence and firmly onto the side of wanting him back was the rumor he’s going to the Angels. WHAT A DISASTER THAT WOULD BE!! The added bonus of keeping him from joining the best team in our division would be worth putting up with his somewhat slimy personality and bush-league behavior (like the ball-slap, the “I got it,” the FA announcement during the Series).
I don’t like at all the arrogance and the me-me attitude of announcing he’s opting out on the final game of the World Series. It reeks of selfishness and A-rod’s constant desire to be in the headlines. What? All these stories about Torre, the Rockies’ amazing streak, and the Red Sox dominance but no mention of A-rod? So what if the World Series was a snoozer. I feel that a player, especially the greatest player, should respect the sport. He told the Red Sox and the Rockies and baseball fans around the globe that his announcement is more important than the achievements of the a-fore-mentioned teams. Selfishness is not attractive in a team sport.
A-Rod is a jerk – but I have nothing bad to say about his efforts for the Mariners. Unlike Griffey and Johnson – A-Rod played hard right to the end, didn’t whine, sulk, and lower his performance (Johnson) and didn’t destroy our bargaining ability by demanding to be traded to only one team (Griffey). It’s odd that the fans still treat those two as heroes.
Day after day, A-Rod played hard and said the right things about the team right up to the end of his stay. Any player, or any of us, offered a similar contract would do exactly what A-Rod did. We’d take it.
Now, of course, he’s an egotistical, smarmy, lying, self-serving piece of litter (not that unlike many other of our hero ballplayers). But as a ballplayer for the Mariners, he was steadfast and hardplaying – I’ll give him that…
Alex irritated me when he was here (my goodness he can be a whiny baby when HBP or convinced the ump made a wrong call) but the man can play baseball, and FWIW, I don’t recall any teammates calling him out for not being a team guy– they might not like him, or the atmosphere around him, but I can’t think of anyone talking about him not being there for the team.
by the way– there is a long and interesting piece on Boras in the New Yorker this week.
A-Rod may be the best offensive player in the game. But that doens’t make him any more worthwhile than Johan Santana. We don’t have offensive issues, we have pitching issues. I’d sign the best pitcher in baseball for $200 million, no problem.
Propsects are prospects, Johan is proven MLB talent.
I disliked A-Rod when he left. Didn’t blame him for taking the money, but his prior talk about not wanting money but wanting to play for a winner, then taking the money to go to Texas left a bad taste in my mouth. Can’t blame him for it though, 252 million is hard to pass up.
I hated him when a couple months later he decided to sign his name to a letter published as a full page ad in the Seattle papers (IIRC) extorting Boeing to consider the Dallas metro area for their new headquarters. Way to give the finger to all those Boeing employees who made up your fan base A-Rod by encouraging their employer to move out of town.
All that said, he’s still the best player in baseball, but given the self-enforced salary cap the Mariners work with I’m not sure I’d want the M’s to sign him.
I’d take him back. I’m not his biggest fan by any means, but that kind of run generation can not just be ignored.
I’m going to be as unemotional as possible here. Alex is a fantastic baseball player. I don’t really care about his personality ‘issues’ and I can only guess that Boras is at least as much to blame (if not a lot more) than Alex for this announcement. If the M’s would like to aquire him, kudos to them. However, here’s if my informed guess on why it’s not a great idea.
With all I’ve learned from Dave, Derek and the rest of you guys and from intaking as much of Tango and other very smart people the last several years, that $30M would be better spent on a long term solution. The M’s really aren’t going to be good for a couple years at least. Getting Alex is like buying a sweetass big screen in your shitty apartment. Sure, all your friends want to hang out and watch it but you’ve really got some bigger issues to deal with.
Like I said, if they make a run at him, cool. I won’t turn beet red and froth at the mouth about him being a choker or bush league or anything. Will be ever be my favorite player? Not by a long shot. Would he help my favorite team? **** yeah. But looking at this from a ‘what’s-best-for-the-M’s-longterm’ view, that money would be better invested in more 21st century scouting or fixing the pitching injury wheel of destruction in the minors or getting the best draft minds in baseball or hiring the USS Mariner guys on as consultants. Y’all get the picture. Thank you and good night.
#2- johan would help you win every game of the season. by trickle down effect he would bump down every guy in the rotation, thus making better matchups. having felix as our #2? nice…
I’m going a different direction for this one. Instead of Santana, I think Bavasi should trade and sign for Erik Bedard. I just moved to Baltimore recently and watched him pitch this summer. It would probably take Balentien (wouldnt it be nice if they took ibanez), Feiereband and maybe some low level prospect but I’d do it in a heartbeat. I think that kid is the real deal. Plus he’s young, got a live arm, and is not a bad clubhouse guy. He’s quiet and extrememly focused on the mound. If Bavasi could pull something off for Bedard without moving Jones or disrupting our budding farm system I may give him a pat on the back. It will probably cost us $15 per year to sign him but a lefty that good would be worth it.
That matchup thing doesn’t work out.
I liked A-Rod when he left. He wanted to get paid like the greatest free agent in the history of sports, but that was okay, because he was the greatest free agent in the history of sports.
I liked A-Rod, for the most part, until he became a Yankee. And no, this isn’t because I don’t like the Yankees (though I don’t), and it isn’t because I just generally tend to dislike players who become Yankees (David Wells is the one real exception). A-Rod started to play like a jerk, and a dumb jerk at that. Breaking the rules, and first insisting he didn’t do it, and then when presented with incontrovertible evidence claiming he didn’t know what he did was wrong (but then why did he first deny it?). And he did this more than once.
So I don’t like him, and I don’t want him on the team. Same reason I don’t want Carl Everett or Julio Mateo on the team.
Santana’s just a bad investment, so I wouldn’t want him on the team, either, but I don’t dislike him.
Bonds I’d take in a second. I generally like Bonds, and he’s a great hitter, and it would be a short-term contract so it can’t really come back and bite us. Barry Bonds should be everyone’s #1 free-agent target, not A-Rod.
“matchups” get messed up through the season, but the point us that it would add depth…felix/johan being your second best pitcher ot batista?
41- johan is a bad investment but BARRY BONDS is a good one? wow…
I’d be pretty happy to have Alex back — because some day I hope there’s a Hall of Famer with a Mariner cap on his plaque. (Sadly, I don’t think Edgar will get elected.) Oh, and best-player-in-baseball, yadda, yadda, yadda.
PS: I like Bonds, too. But too-many-DHs-already, more yadda.
Re: Bonds, DH – If you really want to bring him in you can find something to do with your lesser DHs. I can’t imagine Bavasi sitting around going, ‘Man, I’d love to have that Barry Lamar fella, but I’ve got Jose Vidro in the DH slot and my boy Raul in left. Oh well.’ Of course, signing Barry is an even more extreme example of my A-rod theory I wrote about above. Does it really matter? Are the M’s going to really compete with teams like the Indians and Red Sox the next couple of years?
#40 Do you just disagree about matchups because one team’s rotation gets skewed wrt another’s in regular season? Surely #39 trickle down comment seems to hold water, right?
Only to the extent that you’re replacing your worst pitcher with Bedard/Santana.
The can of worms has finally been opened!
When A-Rod left Seattle for the money, it hurt. He sold out, signed with a division rival in Texas, and told the media and the fans it’s because he wanted to play for a “winner.”
B.S.! I don’t care how you spin it. You would have signed that contract … yada, yada, yada.
The Mariners go on to win 116 games in 2001, and although this made it easier to forget about A-Rod, it was hard to imagine how much better they would have been with him. Sure A-Rod felt the same way too. He talked about it, and you could tell he regretted signing with Texas.
So just when I’m starting to warm up to A-Rod again, he finds a way to get traded to the Yankees without losing a penny of his precious money. And worse, does so knowing that he would have to give up playing shortstop and play second fiddle to Derek Jeter.
Was it worth it to A-Rod? I guess not. He couldn’t even honor his contract, deciding to opt out three years earlier for … you guessed it … more money.
Baseball has made A-Rod the richest man in sports. He should be more thankful. How greedy can a guy get?
[ot]
[ot]
The odds of both Santana and Arod joining the M’s?
About the same as Willie Bloomquist winning the home Run title.
Umm, actually, I’d say it’s even lower than that. Like, say, about the same odds as Lisa Bloomquist winning the HR title…
Could somebody steer me toward some of those Santana-at-any-cost columns? I’ve been poking around the newspaper Web sites and haven’t found them.
This cannot be emphasized enough.
A-Rod may very well actually be a jerk, but just because the media presents him that way does not mean you should believe them.
If you don’t have personal experience with his conduct, you shouldn’t be prepared to state definitively what kind of person he is.
His little ball slapping trick from a couple of years ago was definitely bush-league, though.
While were throwing A-Rod around, does anyone remember A-Rod’s last at-bat in a Mariner uniform in the 2000 ALCS against the Yankees?
Home run at Yankee Stadium
Still makes me wonder what could have been … 2001 and beyond?
And it just pisses me off!
To me I look at this as a question of what would you rather have in the short term:
Alex Rodriguez at SS for $30 million for the next couple of years. Giving you a potential line up of:
C Kenji
1B Ibanez
2B Yuni
SS ARod
3B Beltre
OF Jones/Ichiro/Wlad
Or not sign him and keep Richie/Jose Guillen around. I know getting rid of Richie might force you to eat some of his contract. But if I have to spend $30 million on a good player like ARod than $25 million on an average players…
For me, I don’t want A-Rod because of the price I believe he will come with ($30m?). At some point the cost outweighs the benefit for every player; because no matter how good the position player is, you have to fill 7 others. No matter how good the starting pitcher is, you need at least 4 more.
If we were to get A-rod and maintain our current roster (which of course we wouldn’t, but who would we drop) we would be the 3rd most expensive team; behind NYY and B’sox; but would adding A-rod really make us the 3rd best team? Or even the 5th best? Or the 10th? Would just adding A-rod improve us enough that we would be that good?
Or would ~$30mil spent in other areas improve us more? If we could trade for or pick up FA’s worth ~ $30mil; would that help us more than A-rod? Could we get 2-4 players for the same amount, who individually aren’t as athletically good as A-rod, but when taken as a sum, filling holes in our infield (1b), OF, and starting rotation would be better than him; while using other young players (Jones) to fill the other holes?
I think that would be the better plan. The problem obviously, is the FA market just seems lacking; and getting a Beckett type pitcher for your rotation means you have to give up something as well.
I hate the B’Sox for a lot of the same reasons I hate the NYY, and also because they are some how the “good guy†and media darling despite spending as much as they do; but I respect their organization. They spend money, but they seem to do it wisely. They make trades, but they make trades for key personnel (Beckett) that make them a better team. When was the last time the M’s really did that? Grrrr. (yeah jealousy too!)
#49 Arod did honor his contract. When the contract was signed, the player option was written in. By exercising the option he has a right to exercise, he IS honoring the contract he signed.
I don’t like Arod for all the reasons that have been given so far. I take a perverse joy when he struggles. That said, I would love to have him on the Mariners. He is the best player in baseball and will get paid accordingly. According to the stars/scrubs method of building a team, he and Santana are exactly the types of players you should target.
Could somebody steer me toward some of those Santana-at-any-cost columns?
I don’t know that anyone has specifically argued the combination Dave mentions above. But a number of offseason stories, especially in the P-I, have talked about Santana and how trading for him might require giving up Jones. So the idea is definitely in the air, although it may not have been explicitly advocated by one of the opinion columnists.
58-So why would you sign someone to a 10-year contract, if he’s just going to opt out three years earlier?
I’m sure the Rangers are happy, but the Yankees obviously aren’t.
How can any team trust A-Rod for 10 more years, without woorying about him opting out or asking for a trade?
[ot]
Well, shame on the Yankees if they assumed he’d stick around the last 3 years of his deal. And double-shame on the next team if they agree to the same exact thing. The Rangers and the Yankees knew what they were getting into. It’s not like the contract was a state secret or something. If the NYY ownership was thinking, ‘Hey, it’s an honor to be Yankee, of course he’ll stick around’ then that’s more entertainment for us.
I don’t live in Seattle, and haven’t seen any chatter in the vein of “do whatever it takes to get Santana”. For the record, I think that’s a bad idea. I also don’t particularly want ARod back. Someone above said that “the team that gets him is an apocalyptically better one” and that seems as crazy a notion as trading everyone for Santana. I mean, the bottom line is, the Rangers and Yankees basically stayed the same in terms of their respective place in the standings during his tenure there. Not that it was through any fault of A-Rod’s but it seems to demonstrate that one player can’t make a big enough impact to justify taking up a quarter or more of a team’s payroll.
I know Buster Olney has mentioned the M’s as a potential landing place for A-Rod, but didn’t he do some griping about the outfield dimensions of Safeco? Or was that Griffey? If he wants to catch Bonds, it would seem to me Safeco would be an additional deterrent to him considering the notion.
60 – If a team allows a player option to be written into the contract they have to account for the possibility that the player will exercise that option if it it to their advantage to do so. When the Yanks traded for Arod, they knew what was in the contract. To answer your specific question, it is possible that Arod wouldn’t have signed the contract unless the player option was present and the Rangers felt that 7 years (out of 10) was worth it.
60 – To continue… Teams can trust Arod to honor the contract he has signed and nothing more. He has played out every contract he has signed I believe and I don’t think he has ever made trade demands. If you want Arod on your team for 10 years, then you sign him for 10 years without providing a player option prior to the end of the 10 years.
A-rod (Boras) probably want the 10 yrs. The 10 yrs w/ option after 7 is better than straight 7yrs, in case A-rod got injured and became unable to play or less effective.
Dave mentions my main objection to the Santana over A-Rod argument — A-Rod only costs you money and a draft pick, whereas Santana costs you money and most of the good players in your farm system. Seattle does not have the organizational depth to make a Santana trade anything more than a huge roll of the dice. A team like Boston could deal three top prospects and if Santana hurts his arm in April, there are still more young guys waiting in the wings. That’s not true here.
I’m going a different direction for this one. Instead of Santana, I think Bavasi should trade and sign for Erik Bedard. I just moved to Baltimore recently and watched him pitch this summer. It would probably take Balentien (wouldnt it be nice if they took ibanez), Feiereband and maybe some low level prospect but I’d do it in a heartbeat.
So would I, but Baltimore won’t — I’d be shocked if the price for Bedard wasn’t pretty close to the price for Santana, since you get Bedard under your control for an extra year.
I never understood the animosity of many of the fans towards A-Rod. Simple minded at best.
I haven’t heard one reasonable example of something he has done or said that would qualify him being a jerk. He’s a terrific player who deserves what he can get on the open market. One of the few nearly worth his steep price. If the M’s had their organization together, they would have kept him, along with a few other key players and we might have something good to talk about here.
I’d be very surprised if he ended up in Anaheim. That’s a lot of loot for them.
“How can any team trust A-Rod for 10 more years, without woorying about him opting out or asking for a trade?”
- Wouldn’t most people argue that in this next contract that the team who signs him would probably WANT him to opt out at some point? If the guy gets his 10yr $300 million contract he will be making $30million(ish) when he is 42.
If I were a team I’d sign him for that contract and give him the option to opt out after 3 years…pray that he has another great 3 years…watch him opt out to chase another contract.
To me, the biggest issue with this upcoming contract for Alex is that he won’t be worth what he is asking for at the end of the contract. At least the Texas contract was relatively guaranteed (unless he ever got injured of course) to pay for a performing player.
Sign me up as being in agreement with #36 – Rodriguez is a great player who plays hard and would be an asset to his team.
Personally, he’s a mercenary. That’s the choice he’s made and I don’t really have any problem with it, other than completely removing the “fun” out of rooting for him. I’d cheer for him if he were on my team because intellectually I know it would help the team, and I’d enjoy his HRs as they put runs on the board, but it wouldn’t be as much fun.
There are players you admire on one level and can’t stand on another. For me, Havlicek and Elway were like that.
Going back to #36, my specific issue with the guy is disingenuousness – essentially swearing it’s not about the money, even after the fact, insults everyone’s intelligence. I(Griffey was honest about everything, even if it made him unpopular, and that honesty won out over time. So, too, was Johnson, although without the charisma.) I remember an interview after the first Texas series here in April 2001 in which Rodriguez said he expected the team to win 110+ games – if he EXPECTED it, why didn’t he stick around for it? Why STILL bleat on about it *not* being about the money? If he’d (ever) just said “hey, you know what, I was leaning towards staying, but it was a QUARTER BILLION dollars, can you blame me?” I would be fine with the guy.
Well, I would’ve been, up through the Slappy McBlueLips thing.
“Personally, he’s a mercenary.”
As opposed to any other professional athlete?
“How can any team trust A-Rod for 10 more years, without woorying about him opting out or asking for a trade?”
Don’t give him an opting out clause, and the latter is a risk with ANY player.
D Truth, this is simply untrue, and it’s an inflammatory untruth. The option is in his contract. He did not break his contract, he honored it till the point where he could become a free agent under the terms of the contract. If you want to put a bad spin on that — and virtually every player and team in baseball declines an option when it’s in their interest to do so — go for it. I hope you remember it the next time a player you like opts out of a contract.
All the evidence of his career to date, despite the media vilifications of his character in every other area, makes it clear that A-Rod will play hard and meet the terms of his contract. You can at least give him that, so enough with the “Who could trust A-Rod” crap.
All comments now from the Yankees and A-Rod’s camp are just posturing and spin. They both were well aware and well prepared for this day. Neither one outmaneuvered the other. It was a Kabuki dance.
The M’s won’t pursue A-Rod for all of the obvious reasons. But if they crazily pursue Santana (and nothing I’ve seen suggests they will do so), then it would seem totally illogical for them not to pursue A-Rod, unless for some reason they know A-Rod would never sign with the M’s and Santana at least would consider doing so (as part of any trade for him the M’s would have to be able to sign him to a long term deal).
[ot]
i hate A-ROD…i mean HATE him…for all the reasons that have been brought up for years…but i would rather sign him than trade away players for someone else…we have a good nucleus, an improved farm system, and he would be a huge asset to the offense…and it would keep him from signing with the Angels…when the talk of him opting out began weeks ago, i told my friends i’d never want him back, even if he was free…i hate him that much…but if it gets us the WS Title, sign me up…
[ot]
ok, ARod then. Hell, he only costs money! If you get the expected offensive upgrade, he is a damn quick way to improve the lineup. He’ll also make for a softer landing for the kids as he’s such a lightning rod. The ‘quiet leaders’ can go on being quiet, in some ways this team isn’t such a bad fit. I can’t share in the outrage over his departure, if Scott Boras gets someone to throw 252 mil, he’s nuts not to go. Simple as that. Put him in the middle, say bye bye to Richie, move Ibanez to 1st, Jones in left, Guillen in right, you might have something. At least the start of something…
You forgot to mention Santana’s poor 1-3 record in the post season (yeah, I know that there’s more to a pitcher than his record, but it would have made an even better analogy).
I’m sorry, but for an organization that employs a lot of people who actually are pompous jerks, that reasoning rings a little hollow.
Thanks, Dave — that totally made my day!
Oh, Armstrong doesn’t want competition, then?
(ducks)
I’d be all for trading for ARod, after he signs somewhere else for 30m and the other team is so desperate to get rid of him that they’ll pay another team 9m to take him off their hands. I don’t pay much attention to what the media says about players. Steve Carleton was always one of my favorite players because he wouldn’t talk to the media. There are a lot of us anti-social types out here, why can’t we have role models too?
While there will be plenty of stories that may unfairly discuss A-Rod’s lack of clutch hitting, for many of us, that’s not what our concern with Rodriguez is. Our main problem is he’s a phony, always pretending to be about the team, or the city, or whatever else, when it’s really all about him. I’m sure there are plenty of players in baseball for which the same is true but Alex manages to raise it to a new level. There’s no doubt he’s a great player but he’s annoying as hell. Santana doesn’t have that same personality quirk. It may not be wise to trade and sign for Santana for all the usual reasons but it’s silly to complain that fans react to Santana and Rodriguez in different ways.
Thank you msb for the link to the Boras piece. It was informative well written and it screwed up my whole morning. : )
Greg
I for one would like to see Boras’ strategy backfire. With the Yanks offering a 5 year extension, A-Rod is giving up 8 years at about $220 – $230MM. Without the Yanks in the bidding war, it’s the Angels and RedSox. Is there any chance that A-Rod gets less than 8 Years @ $30MM each?
68
“It’s not about the money.”
Does that ring a bell? He’s disingenuous, always has been, but I for one can take it with a grain of salt. If he stopped trying to do everything perfectly, from his contract to his relationship with the media, and spoke from the heart for change, he’d be a lot more likeable. But that kind of fluff just doesn’t obscure what kind of player he is, and I agree with you that to let it do so is your (in the plural sense) loss as a baseball fan.
Dave’s post is spot-on. To see Santana as worthy of mortgaging your organization’s future for and Rodriguez as unworthy of the heavy price tag he commands exposes a, evaluative schism that makes the M’s FO look very ignorant.
[ot]
Thanks SMB, Couldn’t have said it better myself!
73 – Yes this has already been pointed out as an error my part. Thank you.
69 and 72 – So we’re all in agreement, if you sign A-Rod … don’t include an opt out clause and don’t sign him for too many years.
73 – Do you think the Rangers feel they got what they paid for with A-Rod? Three MVP quality seasons before he was traded to the Yankees. Stuck with paying a signficant portion of his remaining salary, while the Yankees reaped the benefits.
The Rangers traded A-Rod because it was tough to rebuild a team when you’re paying $25 million to one guy each year. A-Rod also wanted to go to the Yankees to play for a winner, and you can’t say he played no part in that deal happening.
Tell me these aren’t signs that you can’t trust A-Rod to stick around when things go bad.
Sure, he’s allowed to opt out of his contract to seek more money and long-term stability. But tell why the Yankees, Rangers, and Mariners would ever want to buy back into this mess, let alone a team on the outside looking in?
But tell why the Yankees, Rangers, and Mariners would ever want to buy back into this mess, let alone a team on the outside looking in?
Because he’s really really good?
That’s the only reason I can buy.
One thing I do like about A-Rod opting out is that the richest organisation in baseball no longer receives the services of one of the best players in the game subsidized by a significantly less afluent competitor.
I wonder why Texas agreed to this in the first place.
There’s very little verifiable evidence that Alex Rodriguez is a jerk. If you look at every media statement he’s made — and I bet I’ve read at least 90 percent — you can only conclude he’s a jerk if you cherry-pick the quotes to death. I’ve never read a credible, substantiated quote from a coach or teammate that says that A-Rod is a clubhouse cancer, a bad teammate, a lazy worker or someone who puts individual goals ahead of team goals during a given season. If you can produce one, I’d be most interested to see it. I’ve never witnessed any incident firsthand, and you haven’t, either. Sportswriters are an extremely subjective, argumentative lot who are aware of their power and like to put it to work. (I’ve been one for about a decade, so I feel I can speak to that with some authority.)
One of the best things Derek and Dave have done on USS Mariner in its existence is implode the whole A-Rod-as-Pay-Rod myth as it applies to his departure from the Mariners. Their facts are indisputable; their logic irrefutable. And they helped me get past my own blind, ignorant hate.
The problem is that we don’t want to believe anything other than what we believe. Hell, for years I didn’t. But come on, folks. We’re here because we’re interested in getting past emotional arguments and trying to get into hard analysis based on empirical fact. Right?
Right?
I boo’d him after he left, because he left and played for a division rival. And I wasn’t too happy with the Boeing bit either. But I don’t personally dislike him. And isn’t the story that Edgar (make that “Saint Edgar”) named his son after A-Rod? I’d be fine with having him back.
But I don’t know what kind of contract he’s going to demand. $30M a year is fine for him now, but what about in five or six years? A lot of sluggers have aged gracefully recently, but I wonder how much of that is due to juice, and will it continue with all the testing going on (NOTE: I’m not implyin’ A-Rod is juicing, just that our expectations of how guys age might be skewed by previous people juicing, and I’m not sure what aging curve we can expect going forward). A 38 year old A-Rod making $30M a year for two more years might be a real boat anchor.
As far as Johann, well, if we trade for him and he walks after next year, would we get compensation picks equivalent to the talent we gave up for him? Even if we did of course, it would be talent delayed by three or four years. I guess it all comes down to how much we had to give up. Wlad and Clement? Hell, do the deal. Jones? I’d probably pass.
I always wonder about this…about 95% of the time, indvidual goals pretty much coincide with team goals, don’t they?
“So we’re all in agreement, if you sign A-Rod … don’t include an opt out clause and don’t sign him for too many years.”
Why is this focus on Arod with this line of thought? If you want any player for a given amount of time, make sure the contract reflects that desire. Why are you trying to criticize Arod for following the contract he agreed to? Are you angry at Guillen for opting out of his contract?
“Do you think the Rangers feel they got what they paid for with A-Rod? Three MVP quality seasons before he was traded to the Yankees. Stuck with paying a signficant portion of his remaining salary, while the Yankees reaped the benefits.”
No they didn’t. The deal was bad when the Rangers made it, but you can’t blame Arod for Hicks giving him a ton of money.
A-Rod is not going back to SS. If he does I pity the team that signs him under that premise. Personally I’d stay clear of his mess, he’s gonna want Texa$$$ until he’s 40, but I agree w/ Dave, he’d make more sense than giving the farm to hoping you can give Santana similar $$$. A-Rod is one of the greatest players ever for crying out loud.
The real question is, how much longer should you even expect him to play third base?
FireJoeMorgan.com has had a field day this season puncturing the inanities of the New York (and other) press who continue to picture ARod as a selfish player to the detriment of his team (“those selfish home runs that didn’t even lead to a Yankees vicory”) and other myths.
Whatever else he is, he’s a hell of a ballplayer and has played out his contracts. If people choose to overpay him, hey, that’s the American Way. The ironic thing is that the M’s are probably using the wrong reasons for not signing him. Too expensive? Fine, I agree. Bad person? Not really at the top of my list of criteria.
I’m not sure that this is really about the money with A-Rod. The Yankees are the richest team in baseball. Their offer alone would be the richest. Throw in the fact that they would have had a free $20 million from Texas ON TOP of their own money, I don’t see how anyone could beat their offer. So unless they were intentionally low-balling A-Rod (which I see no reason why), I think A-Rod will be leaving money on the table in leaving the Yanks. I think it may actually be about what he originally claimed in 2000: that it is about winning a ring now. He has his money. I think he is knowingly leaving money on the table with the Yanks because he thinks the team is on the decline.
Anyway, I could be completely wrong. Who know.
97: The deal Texas made with Rodriguez wasn’t a bad one until they gave him to the Yankees. They had plenty of payroll headroom to build a competitive team around him. Instead, they wasted money on players like Chan Ho Park.
Another point of contention I am having with the national media is their being upset with Arod and Boras for announcing he was opting out during the world series (Buster Onley wrote a scathing article about it), but where was the outcry for the yankees raking Torre over the coals during the playoffs? MLB has come out and condemned the timing as well. If they really wanted the focus to remain on the world series, MLB would make a rule similar to the NFL’s: no coaching changes until the last game of the world series. They could extend that rule that no player announcements could be made prior to the final game of the world series as well.
As far as Arod goes, why *wouldn’t* you want the best player in baseball on your team? For all the razzing he got while in NY, he won 2 MVPs, strapped the team to his back this year and single handedly drug them to the playoffs, and all in all gave the unappreciative fans in NY a fantastic show the 4 years he was there. People want to knock his postseason failures in NY, but want to forget that Arod was essentially the only guy who hit in the 04 series against the twins.
I know he can’t/won’t come back to Seattle, but I’d love to see him in a Seattle uniform again. People who want to criticize him for signing with Texas aren’t living in reality – you think ANYONE would turn that down?
Dave and Derek have also punctured the “A-Rod-crippled-Texas-with-his-contract” myth.
Actually, that one’s a lot easier to puncture. The “Pay-Rod” thing is a matter of faith either way you come down on it, because none of us can fully capture his motivations, or the thought process that led him first to Texas and then New York. It’s about as realistic as knowing that someone’s a jerk when you’ve never met them in person.
Articles about Boras’ preparation for A-Rod salary negotiations include the projected team income from Rodriguez’s probable history chasing seasons towards the end of his career (if not earlier). In a similar sense that the Yankees justified his contract with ticket sales increases among other things, shouldn’t the next team that Alex plays for justify his contract with a handful of non-baseball factors?
I can imagine Safeco Field sold out to watch him hunt down Bonds’ HR record, especially when considering the attendance for the current team.
41- johan is a bad investment but BARRY BONDS is a good one? wow…
Yes. Johan costs players, and there’s no guarantee we’d have him after 2008.
Bonds doesn’t cost any players.
103 – Thanks. I haven’t been around long enough. I’ll strike that from my list of ARod utterances.
The deal was bad when the Rangers made it, but you can’t blame Arod for Hicks giving him a ton of money.
I couldn’t disagree more. The Rangers got a good deal with the A-Rod contract, but then squandered that deal by spending too much on guys like Todd Van Poppel. And then they bought into the media hype that the A-Rod contract was crippling them and sent him to New York while still paying his contract. That Texas became idiots as soon as they signed A-Rod doesn’t make the contract a bad deal.
I was referring to the contract being bad because in my memory, it was significantly higher than any other offer Arod recieved. When you go to an auction an bid against yourself, you are being a bonehead.
Johan may cost players, but do the M’s not receive extra players via draft once they lose the services of Santana to free agency? Santana can give you about 15% more wins, and perhaps you can package one of the players you’re trying to get rid of in a deal.
When you enter these factors into a potential deal, it seems to me that Santana might actually be worth more than A-Rod
Texas offers Arod $252 million for 10 years, M’s offered $85 million for 5 years, and not much other competition for his services. I have no problem paying the best player in baseball an amazing salary but outbidding your competition by that much makes the contract bad. The contract may have not crippled the Rangers but they did not get a ‘good deal’. In my opinion, Texas became idiots before they signed Arod.
I might blame Hicks for buying the whole ‘mystery team’ in competition with the Rangers story
#112– just a reminder, in ’99 before free agency the Mariners offered Alex 8/$117.5M, with a $16M signing bonus
What amuses me is that Texas finished last all three seasons in which Alex played for them. Mind you, he put up eye-popping stats and played in 485 of 486 games, but they still were dead last. And for that, and for getting out of his contract, the Rangers shelled out over $30m per year (sending $7m or so for four seasons to the Yankees). Wow. I guess it’s not as bad as some corporations that hemorrhage money and then pay their CEOs $100m to take a hike…for perspective.
As for his public image, Alex tries so very hard to say the right thing…and almost always seems to be clumsy about it. “That’s our A-Rod!” Bwap, bwap, bwap, bwap, bwaaaaaaaap!”
D Truth, being traded by Texas is evidence that Rodriguez can’t be trusted? He didn’t force that trade. Seriously, you are stretching for reasons to support a contention that can’t be defended on the evidence. There is no reason other than vision-clouding personal dislike to say that you can’t trust Rodriguez to honor a contract (which is what you said, and so far as I can tell still are insisting).
Sure: because while the media can’t overtly misquote him, they still get to present him how they want in every other way. And on top of that they get to “analyze” what he said. Which means if he won’t cooperate by saying stuff that’s outrageous, they can still do their damnedest to make him look clumsy, insincere, phony, and all the other things so many people here believe on faith without knowing him. People like Steve Kelley have built our conception of A-Rod.
#58 and #73. I contend that ARod and Boras did not honor his contract because they have been negotiating the terms of a new contract with other teams before exercising the free agency option. Without having his contract in front of me, I would be much surprised if there is not a prohibition against doing so until he actually became a free agent. The teams involved can be accused of tampering. For the player, it is breach of contract.
You are free to believe that he walked away from 8 years at almost $30 million per year from the Yankees without something lined up, but that would be completely contrary from his past behavior.
You have proof of that?
ARod has a clause in his contract to pay a $1.5M bonus if he wins the MVP this year. Since he voided the remainder of his contract before he won the award, does that mean he also forfeits his bonus?? Opps…
I hate that Texas will now have an extra $21M to play with to sign more players.
To all the people who complain about his salary:
A-Rod was originally dealt from Texas to the Boston Red Sox for Manny Ramirez. His deal would have been re-negotiated to include both fewer years and less money. However, the Players’ Union stepped in and vetoed the deal, claiming the salary reduction would create a precedent for teams to squeeze more marginal players in the future. The deal was canceled and A-Rod was subsequently moved to the Yankees for Alfonso Soriano. The rest is history.
Have we thought about what ARod’s departure from NY does for Texas? They suddenly have another ~$8M to play with (and something like $21M over the next three years). Assuming Texas doesn’t just pocket it and does something reasonably intelligent with it, that makes the division tougher even if ARod doesn’t land in Anaheim.
Meanwhile, there’s no way Seattle should get caught up in the Santana goldrush. The Yankees are desperate, desperate, for pitching… and now they have that ARod money to play with. Meanwhile Boston wants to make life difficult in the Bronx. They’re probably not serious about making another Matsuzaka-esque outlay, but they’ll get in on the bidding just to make sure the people around the reanimated FrankenSteinbrenner have to pay top dollar (and top prospect). Do you really want to be salmon swimming into that shark fight?
His past behavior of not honoring contracts? Do tell.
You are free to believe that he walked away from 8 years at almost $30 million per year from the Yankees without something lined up, but that would be completely…
…consistent with his previous behavior. Which is that he (and Boras) have always believed his talent would net a big payday on the free agent market. He didn’t have the Texas deal lined up before he walked away from Seattle. As big as his last deal was, salaries have gone up since then. Both Boras and A-Rod have immense confidence in their respective talent. Neither one needs to work with a net.
Plus, he’s already got scads of dough. He may actually not be trying to maximize his salary. For example, he’s treated like something the cat threw up by the New York media and fans, and even during an MVP season he played second fiddle to Jeet. You read about millionaires spending big bucks for cheap thrills. Maybe A-Rod is willing to “spend” a million or two of salary for a team that can be “his.”
Or, alternatively, he has enough money in the bank that he can gamble. He might be looking for a couple million a year raise, and if he “only” gets 6/$25 in his next contract, he’s not exatly going to end up doing “The Surreal Life” to make ends meet.
And, the constant negativity in NY couldn’t be good for his endorsements. Pointedly, I haven’t seen him doing may big endorsements the last couple of years. Perhaps he and Boras figure they can more than make up for any shortfall in salary with better secondary deals in a friendlier market.
Whatever. Point is, there’s ample reason to believe they took the option without another deal already in place. And no reason (other than spite?) to think that he cheated on his contract.
I think the average Seattle baseball fan needs to learn to separate their opinion of a player’s personality from their opinion of that player. A-Rod is annoying. Manny’s a jackass; but he can hit for my team any time he wants. Ted Williams was a complete jerk, by all accounts. Etc etc.
RE: #25. “When Fox and Major League Baseball don’t treat the World Series with respect, why should Boras or Rodriguez?” Tell me that’s a joke. If not, is this what the attitude of today’s fan is? That if one or two do it, it’s OK for all to disrespect? Ah, the permissiveness of our elders… Obviously it’s WRONG for Fox and MLB (me: longing for the days of NBC’s coverage), and it’s WRONG for Boras and Rodriguez.
RE: #45 AMcPheeters said, “I’d be pretty happy to have Alex back — because some day I hope there’s a Hall of Famer with a Mariner cap on his plaque. (Sadly, I don’t think Edgar will get elected.) Oh, and best-player-in-baseball, yadda, yadda, yadda.”
At last count, Alex Rodriguez spent more years in a Mariners uniform than that of any of his subsequent teams (3 for the Rangers, 4 for the Yanks). The HOF would probably give him a M’s cap if he were eligible today…
RE: #5, #54, #94 and others: As for Alex being a jerk, you guys who say we don’t know and that it’s the media who present him that way…um, well, a lot of us WERE watching his on-field antics toward Boston’s Bronson Arroyo and Toronto’s Howie Clark, as well as his elbow to the groin of Dustin Pedroia last year.
Also, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what ARod was doing with Joslyn Morse, the muscular blonde stripper/Playboy Bunny after taking her out to dinner and later to a strip club in Toronto, then to his hotel, entering the elevator together. Think they were meeting Cynthia upstairs? And it was a jerk thing to do, sending that letter to the Boeing Company the year after landing in Texas.
To any woman married to a man in professional sports, maybe that’s the norm. But to me, it’s being an A-1 Jerk.
Nevertheless, msb has it right. For the most part, when he’s in a clubhouse with his peers, he’s an OK guy (what he’s done salary-wise also has had a trickle-down effect). THAT’S been reported, too, presumably by someone who’s been there.
RE #68: As far as what Rodriguez is worth, didn’t someone do a study on The ARod Factor including merchandising revenues, ticket sales, road game revenues, etc. and concluded he was actually worth about $18M/year to whatever team he was on since 2001? I think Ichiro compares more favorably than that for the Mariners, doesn’t he?
Oh, yeah, one more thing: these 50-75 page glossy prospectus books (this time it was for a batch of 100) Boras keeps churning out — as if no one knows what ARod’s resume is — are a total turnoff. Next thing you know ARod’s going to offered as an IPO on the stock exchange.
All that being said, even though ARod’s head must be swollen to the size of a Macy’s Day Parade balloon, I’d say pay him to come back to the Mariners, play 3B, ask sure-handed Adrian Beltre to start taking grounders at 1B this winter, and find a way to dump both Vidro and Sexson. We root for the laundry here in Seattle, too, don’t we?