Zero days since a bad move
It is confusing and distressing to witness a team that claims to be interested in fielding a competitive team over the long term trade a player of Jones’ talent and value, along what we reasonably expect to be highly valuable pieces, to the Orioles for a pitcher determined to test free agency at the end of his contract.
I have no doubt that the Mariners front office is interested in winning, and I wish that they would seek to become better by applying concepts in use by other, successful teams to realize the value of prospects like Jones, and to find alternatives to paying such high prices in trade. Such a change would be in the best interests of the team, by allowing it to face challenges by well-funded and well-run divisional rivals and also in the best interests of the fan base, who would like to see a Mariner team built to make a run at the World Series, and not just be part of the race for the division pennant for part of the season.
My best wishes go to Adam Jones, who I’ve been a fan of since I saw him play in Everett. I hope you go on to have a great career, even if it’s not with the Mariners where we could enjoy seeing your career.
My heart goes to the team, in the hopes that the extremely high price they have paid for their adherence to their philosophy leads them to consider a better way.
I am thrilled to see this trade finally going down. It has been speculated for way too long, and is very nice to see the Mariners front office making a splash and gambling. Good pitching beats good hitting. Depending on what other prospects are involved in this trade, I am estatic for this trade to be done! I just hope we didn’t give up too much more than Jones and sherill.
Good pitching does not beat good hitting. Gambling does not a good move make.
>>Good pitching does not beat good hitting. Gambling does not a good move make.>>
Amen… Jones Helps us win EVERYDAY…Bedard helps us every 5 days, and he had his best year last year and he couldn’t even finish his year. WE got fleeced and how do I know? Because Jones is involved, and the fact that there is more people than just him…makes it worse.
Bad replacement outfielders don’t beat anything… ugh.
With this move seemingly in place, what do we do now about right field? I’ve heard Wilkerson’s name thrown around but I can’t imagine we give him the full time gig or the $21 million over 3 years that has been thrown around. Wait, it kills me that I’m sure we’d throw the money at him….ahhhhh
Well, at least Baker’s blog offered some hope that maybe Sherrill was not included in the deal. Yet I doubt that. Jones was the 5th best player (among position players) on the M’s projected 25 man roster. On KJR a few weeks back Dave summarized a Bedard for Jones trade as “trading the present for the present.” Bedard is really great, but the M’s, in my judgement, have taken a half step forward for 2008 and maybe 2009.
I would suspect that Wilkerson will also accompany Bavasi to a press conference sometime this week. Does his potential signing reset the counter? Better him than Luis Gonzalez.
This really f’ing sucks.
I began hating having my favorite player ever being trapped on a team that would renew Hargrove after a season where he managed (ha!) to keep his team out of the playoffs.
I will simply avoid Mariner news of any kind, save chacking in on the players I like, and pity, to see how they are doing.
I feel something oddly deep in how I despise the Mariners’ ownership and management, who have robbed the team’s and players’ fans of the enjoyment of seeing good baseball played in exciting ways, whether finally winning or losing.
It’s been nice reading what very many have posted over the last seven years, but I can’t waste any more emotion over something like this “organization.” Certainly I wish you well.
I will resign my posting rights today, so please jeer me if you see me here again, at least before all management changes and shows they know how to do the job of providing the entertainment they claim is their goal.
— BC
Rather than Wilkerson, I’d move toward a guy like Corey Patterson if we could keep it at a 2 year deal.
Obviously left field is still in question, but it’s amazing that after last season, Bavasi may actually put together a crappier outfield defense than last year.
I know I’ll likely feel differently next week, but right now I’m feeling like I can’t root for this team anymore. It’s just an endless barrage of stupid. Discarding Guillen, retaining Hargrove, trading Cabrera, discarding Soriano, rewarding Ramirez, trading Jones, retaining Sexson, on and on and on…. Management will sign Luis Gonzalez, cater to his veteran entitlement, and Ibanez’s, scapegoat Lopez, watch balls fall in all over the field except center and third base, watch Bedard and Felix somehow fail to dominate, blame everything except themselves, and then do the same things over again, louder and more expensively, while the media tell everybody that they did everything by the book and who could have known differently?
It’ll be nice to see Bedard, I guess. I don’t know. I wonder what it’s like to get to cheer for an organization that doesn’t get fleeced by of all teams the Orioles?
Right field, that is. Presumably the same potted plant as last year is in left.
I noticed one of the idiots that responded on Baker’s blog mentioned that the Angels “aren’t going to want to face Bedard 4-5 times a year”. Hmm…can’t wait ’til we get to one of those games where Bedard shuts down the Angels for the first six innings before having to leave with some mysterious boo-boo in his pitching elbow…then ends up getting replaced in the seventh with HoRam (now the “official” lefty in the ‘pen since GS52 is now in Baltimore) — who promptly craps his pants and coughs up a six spot to blow the game. >:(
It’s been clear from the beginning that the M’s front office never really valued AJ the way we do. That being said, I hope he has a great career in Baltimore and I am happy to add Bedard to our rotation. Now who the heck is going to play RF???
A few months ago, this sort of thing would get me all upset. But then I realized that until there are ownership changes, the FO philosophy is unlikely to change. So getting upset about stuff like this and hoping that they’d figure out how to be a smarter organization was doing nothing but raising my blood pressure and making me hate baseball.
So yeah, this is probably a stupid trade and the M’s will likely regret it, but I couldn’t care less and will attempt to enjoy Bedard’s starts for the 2 years that he’s here.
14: I’m sure BB (in his infinite wisdom) will scrounge around for some immobile statue with zero defensive skills to overpay for that position.
Any details on the deal yet?
Good luck to you, AJ, may the Orioles organization give you the respect that the Mariners organization never did.
I feel sick.
At least AJ will get to play CF as an Oriole, right?
DMZ (or Dave), can you explain this trade from the Mariners standpoint? Obviously most/all of us in the blogsphere see this as pretty stupid. and while we aren’t fans of the Mariners FO, they can’t be idiots.
Does it just boil down to Bedard 2008+ 2009 >> Jones 2008+2009, and they don’t care about the $15M in cost difference because there’s room in the payroll and they can’t or don’t look beyond the short term? Does Bavasi et al being under pressure to win now affect their long term view?
So now we wait if this deal is just horrible (Jones+) or stupendously horrendous (Jones+++).
I have an Orioles t-shirt so I guess I’ll be wearing that more often.
Dave raised this point in his radio interview; however, it warrants asking at this point. Who the bloody hell are the M’s going to put in right field at this point?
ok…I can’t believe I used at this point 3 times in one post.
I’m an O’s fan, and I had to get all of you the prospective from our side.
If you think you’re ownership doesn’t know what its doing, I’d be more than happy to swap.
If you think you’re plight is so terrible, I’ll switch and let the M’s deal with the Yanks and Sox every year.
If you think you gave up too much for Bedard, remember that he was 13-5 on an awful team with a GOD awful bullpen, that by my unofficial count, blew at least 5 games for him last year.
If you think Bedard is injury prone, remember that it was an oblique strain that shut him down for September, and if they games actually mattered he would of pitched.
Bottom line: Bedard is a stud pitcher, and there are so few of them that you have to pay a boat load to get them. Remember, he’s from Canada so your proximity to the Canada might help you in free agency in two years. He’s an ass with the media, so prepare yourself for that. He’s already had ligament replacement, so he should be able to avoid that for the rest of his career.
The M’s are trying to win now in a weak division…I’d kill for that chance. Bavasi, from all I gather, is a terrible GM, but he’s trading potential for dominence. Its a risk, but its going to give you a chance against the Angels (who aren’t going to hit at all).
22: Charlton Jimerson??
v.v
Also, what does this mean for Morrow? (assuming he’s not part of the trade)
Is he going to be relegated to the bullpen again?
25 – Morrow says he’s up for anything.
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080127&content_id=2357018&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea
PUKE
Re:24
If you think you understand baseball, I’ll happily remind you that you don’t.
Ok, so who are the Mariners going to have in the outfield now? Also, who’s going to shut down lefties and be our 8th inning setup man (since Morrow will presumably be starting still)?
Re: 29
Please enlighten me.
Baltimore and Seattle are both horrible franchises. It’s like trying to argue what’s worse: a punch to the groin or a kick to the head.
Re:32
You “would kill” for a move in which your team marginally improved its underdog playoff odds at the cost of its long-term future?
I mentally prepared myself for this weeks ago. I agree with Dave: Kick some ass Erik Bedard, make this thing worth it.
Its not like you traded for 3 months of Bedard…you have two years and first rights to extend him beyond that.
All I was saying is that I can’t envision a time ANYWHERE in the future where my team would have as good of a shot (however small you might believe it to be) as the M’s have this year. With Oakland and Texas being non-factors the next two years, and with the Angels around 83-89 wins this year (IMO), going for broke isn’t as bad as it may seem.
And since when has Bedard been considered a “marginal” improvement?
ultimatedub1, we’re in a much better position to figure out where we are relative to the Angels than you.
I love Bedard to bits, but in all likelihood he’s not going to take us over the top.
The argument isn’t that Bedard is a marginal improvement (though we’ll see how the two players do next year) it’s that the M’s aren’t a particularly good bet even now to go to the playoffs.
Its not like you traded for 3 months of Bedard…you have two years and first rights to extend him beyond that.
We do? Last I checked, that was up to Bedard and his agent. If they don’t want to even bother talking extensions with us, then how do we have first rights?
I know you guys hate me being here, but I feel like I know your team pretty well for an outsider. I work nights, so I end up catching more West Coast games than my own. I know you were well above your projected win totals for last year…I get that.
That being said, I will bow to your knowledge and leave you to mourn the loss of Adam Jones. If it makes you feel any better, I’ll buy his jersey the second I see it.
24:
1) Bedard is from Ontario — not British Columbia (not sure where he lives OS, tho).
2) In NO WAY would I want to have to deal with getting past both BOS & NYY every year in that division!
3) Can we trade you guys Bill Bavasi for several propects to be named later?!
What makes this trade even worse is Jones was genuinely excited to play from Seattle.
Snatch away a young, exciting, homegrown talent from the fans. Thank you front office.
Re:40
You can negotiate with him the entire time, and try to buyout a year of his free agency. You’ll get a first rounder if he walks…
From all I know about Bedard, he will listen to offers immediately.
I know you guys hate me being here
Wrong again.
Honestly I have no idea what to think. I’ve read all the arguments on this site and the ones that Geoff Baker makes; both good in my opinion. There are a lot of “ifs” regarding whether the M’s would be better with Bedard or Jones. I love AJ, and wish him the best. But I do not believe our current starting pitching could’ve even competed against the Angels. Now with Bedard we align ourselves with a potentially great 1-2 punch that may be second only a few teams in all of baseball. The Bedard trade works out if he stays healthy and signs an extension. Remember this is a guy with dominant stuff that gives us a chance to win each time he goes out there. If Bedard gets hurt for significant time and he career takes a turn the wrong direction it becomes a terrible gamble the M’s took. If he has 2 great years and then leaves after 09 without a ring it could be looked at as a bad trade.
Keep in mind a lot can happen both ways in a 2 year time frame. If Bedard is healthy and signs an extension we can focus our money elsewhere to fix the holes we have. It’s hard to build a team around 2 dominant starters let’s see if the M’s can do this. It is way to early to say they won’t and the trade is a wash.
I just pray that Triunfel is not part of the deal, and I’d rather not have Sherrill leave either. We’ll see.
Kiss any chance of a World Series the next 10 years goodbye.
I understand where people are coming from with the viewpoint that the AL West is weak, and going for broke may work etc etc.
The problem is, most of us who are accused of being negative are just being realistic.
Will we be embarrassed, and feel like we were wrong all along if somehow Vladi breaks his wrists, the Angels starters struggle, the Mariners defense somehow over achieves, Richie Sexson some how hits, Ibanez somehow fields, the Moose somehow doesn’t run anyone over with an ATV, and Miracle Mel somehow squeezes every ounce of potential out of all five starters and the Mainers somehow make the playoffs, and somehow win the World Series?
No. The problem is, there are far too many somehows involved. When you’re this far behind the game in the talent department (and remember, it’s not just the Angels, but the other wild card contending teams), you’re counting on way too much to break your way.
If you can’t see that, well, I wish I could share your optimism.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-os0127,0,5598077.story
Maybe its not done yet…
If Clement is not included, then this deal is not that bad.
Kiss any chance of a World Series the next 10 years goodbye.
I’m not sure there was any chance to begin with
If you think Clement is… no.
#49: So what the hell is really going on?
Maybe Jones is taking a break from Winterball and vacationing in luxurious downtown Baltimore.
Maybe Angelos pulled the rug out from under MacPhail, as he has with GMs in the past.
C’mon Angelos; nix the deal.
Nix the deal! Nix the deal! Nix the deal!
Well, that surely was a downer. I was riding high coming off the Blazers coming back from a 19 point victory only to come here and lose that buzz.
/me sighs.
Well, at least Bedard is really good.
Maybe Adam Jones wanted to see how fast a rumor could spread.
I will never EVER call Angelos a bad owner again if he nixes this.
I promise. Seriously.
#24 –> Now if this were you know … back in 2001-2002 when a trade of the farm (given the likelihood that we’re about to be fleeced by Baltimore) for some stud pieces might would have made sense … but alas it isn’t. So trading our pieces for the now AND future for a slightly better shot (you know, as opposed to none at all) at the postseason … well that’s idiotic.
That said, I agree with a few of the above posters; I’m resigned to this sort of fate, and at least we didn’t trade AJ for Blanton.
#50 –> And concerning Clement … I’d rather they package Clement than lose Tillman and Triunfel. Given that this is the M’s we’re talking about, they probably included all three and tossed in Morrow and WLAD for kicks.
Our OF is going to be ridiculously bad next year. Maybe we can merge Reed with Ibanez and get the stock corner OF that can somewhat hit and sort of move. In all likelihood though, we’ll end up with Bloomquist finally given a starting job in RF!
I promise to be a nice person if Angelos nixes this.
Jim Street reports the trade will likely include Jones, Sherrill, Tillman and a minor leaguer.
#62: Got a link?
I guess that isn’t as bad as it could be…still not great, though.
I’m personally excited for this trade. Bedard is ace quality and HAS DONE something in this league. Adam Jones is a stellar talent and has acres of potential but he has proved nothing beyond potential. The Mariners have a history of poorly developing they’re own talent save for Ken Griffey Jr. and Alex Rodriguez. Those two go beyond the definition of can’t miss prospects and are in the argument for best players of all-time, not much development needed there.
Jones projects out to a Torii Hunter type player. Excellent player, but would I trade Torii Hunter for Erik Bedard? Every day of the week and twice on Sunday…. no problem.
Bedard gives us a killer 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation and we can now compete in our own division, which is a hell of a lot more than we’ve done in the last few years.
I applaud the Mariners for taking a chance. For years we hung on to “Can’t Miss” prospects that were untouchable; Gil Meche, Joel Pinerio, Ryan Anderson, Clint Nageotte, Travis Blackley, Roger Salkeld, Chris Snelling. I could go on and on. Now I understand most of the guys in this conversation are pitchers, but we cannot develop our own pitchers. We may as well trade for someone elses developed pitcher. If Adam Jones turns out to be in the 99th percentile of players that all of these people have anointed him to be, oh well, congratulations. But, alas, it is not likely. He’ll likely be another above average player like Torii Hunter, Shannon Stewart and Vernon Wells.
Anybody remember the type of offers we were getting for Gil Meche and Joel Pineiro? Ridiculous talent.
The Mariner homepage.
Embedded O’s fan (M’s too). Not a fan of this trade, if it’s real (see: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-os0127,0,5598077.story).
Bedard is a qualified stud – the best SP in baseball last year by the stats. If the M’s can get him for Jones and some prospects (not Truinfel) then they robbed the bank.
If Bavasi blinked and threw in Truinfel, he should be fired.
60: Too bad this isn’t a sci-fi universe of the distant future — then we could maybe figure out a way to somehow meld Reed and Morse into one guy to play right field!
There’s no way Bedard was the best pitcher in baseball by the stats, no matter how you slice it. That’s Jake Peavy. And then Webb and a couple other guys.
Robbed the bank.
68
I think they secretly did.
But all they could come up w/ was Hiram Bochachica (sp?)
Best AL Pitcher, which makes him the best pitcher.
I’m very excited for the Bedard trade. It’ll be fun to watch him and King Felix.
Why would McPhail bother denying it? I could see a “no comment” but is there any credence to what he’s claiming?
The Mariners have a history of poorly developing they’re own talent save for Ken Griffey Jr. and Alex Rodriguez.
So the idea is that since the M’s make mistakes in one area, they should pay for those mistakes by shipping off any good young players they can?
Please show me an example of a contending team that does NOT develop their own talent. Hint: you’ll find this to be very hard to do. A productive farm system is the primary way by which teams become great.
He’ll likely be another above average player like Torii Hunter, Shannon Stewart and Vernon Wells.
Actually, Adam Jones projects to be something like Eric Davis (another 6′3″ right-handed batting CF from LA), who was a hell of a player. A healthy Eric Davis is a legitimate HOF contender. Also, we don’t know what Jones will do in the future… but we don’t know what Bedard will do, either. It’s a mistake to think that minor league performance doesn’t “prove” anything compared to major league performance.
Bedard’s a very good player, but it appears the M’s gave up 6 years of a very good and inexpensive player for 2 years of a more expensive player of pretty comparable quality (not including anyone else included in the deal).
#65 –> This was already addressed a few weeks ago. Jones isn’t really a prospect at this point; you have to stop thinking of him as the AAA player and take a good luck at him as the starting OF that he is. Furthermore, prospects and veterans flame-out at basically a similar rate; the idea that Bedard will do well is based on his current performance (projected), while Jones is similar.
Most of those guys (Snelling, Anderson, et al) were either continuously injured or had some issues. Meche was easily better than that monster from hell we replaced him will (HoRam/Weaver) and the 1/2 of the time he was locked in, he was superb. Pineiro was pretty good before he sucked. Actually, given THAT trend and Bedard’s fragility, it’d be of greater concern that Bedard suffer some sort of statistical regression back from ace-awesomeness. Not that I want this to happen, but these are things you’d probably want to consider.
Again, Jones for Bedard is, while not optimal given the state of the M’s right now … acceptable. Jones and the FARM for Bedard is stupid.
70: I think rather have ole’ Boca playing right next year — at least he wouldn’t cost as much as Wilkerson, Green or Gonzo!
“Our Safety Record: [0] Days Since Last Accident.”
I get to languish in the Tampa area. Everybody talks about out young talent for years and the best we can do is 4th place once in the last 10 years. So having all the young talent in the world, does not get you anywhere. I would kill for us to get a pitcher like Bedard.
I do follow the american league east relegiously.
As far as Bedard, I don’t know much about Jones, he is a dominate pitcher. I see where people have said he may not repeat his performance and he has only done it for the past year and a half. One thing I do know he became dominate ~1.5 years ago, after Kris Benson taught him a new grip on his change-up. It should be an archive article in the Baltimore sun if you want the quote from Bedard.
Since then he has dominated everyone. I have personally seen him several times against Tampa and he is a stud. He has shut down our offense every time out and that is rare for our offense.
If he helps you get to the playoffs, he should be extremely valiable against the skanks and the Red Soxs. He has dominated both teams.
As far as his ERA going up, I believe the opposite will happen since he will pitching most of his games against Oakland, Ana., and Texas and less against Tampa, New York, Boston and Toronto. Which all 4 teams are top 6 offenses.
I don’t know what trade would be fair, but you guys will be getting a great pitcher.
Also last years injury was stomach muscle pull, which he could have pitched more but Baltimore shut him down, which actually benefits you guys now. Good luck and I hope you guy knock Boston and the skanks out of the playoffs.
I started to cry….but after some research i found nothing….i didnt even see it on the 4 letter networks’ site which tries to jump every story and on mlbtraderumors.com they say according to the Baltimore Sun that there is no deal….could be temporary but maybe something stalled and will prevent this deal!
As Baker notes, it’s a big deal to pull Jones off his winter league team right now and the M’s value those relationships. Further, why would Jones lie about going to Baltimore? What possible reason does he to shine Baker on?
I mean everything sounds like it is in place but just 10 mins ago the story says its not….I trust ya DMZ but Im holding out that there is a glimmer of hope
Let’s see:
Standard MLB Trade Talk Protocol:
Phone call inquiries.
Lunch / Dinner together at GM Winter Meetings.
Exchange banter for X amount of days or weeks.
Get pissed and stall.
Not cave.
Make public comments to Associated Press that you wont cave.
Cave.
Finalize the specifics.
Deny all rumors until physicals done.
Hold big time press conference with lights, cameras, jerseys, and hugs.
They’re just going through the motions. It’s done, we need to move on to “acceptance”.
Another thing, if you guys don’t make a playoff run and Bedard pitch’s as well for you as Baltimore, you guys can trade him at the deadline. Imagine what he be worth at the deadline for a team wanting or desperate to get in the playoffs…..
Re: 78
In what world does Toronto have a top offense?
well idiot fan….this deal is a big deal and part of the sticking points were what the m’s were giving up. and even though the mariners are giving up a lot it was rumored to be more for a long time….and apparently jones is not flying for the physical
Just call me “TIF”. And I am very aware of the situation. However, holding onto some misguided hope at this point that the deal is somehow not done or may be nixed by Peter Angelos is pathetic. It’s done. We can discuss the specifics all we want, but sitting in the “denial” stage is not productive.
Then again, if it is not done, for whatever reason, then so be it. But I’ll believe that when it happens. I don’t see any reason for Adam Jones to lie about going to Baltimore.
Oh neither do I. but as a member of the media myself (lol) id like to believe that sources do not lie to us….but then again if a source may be lying or jumping the gun to a player involved in the deal its possible.
Im not necessarily in denial, my young years were scarred by terrible mariners moves–so im used to it. im being slightly optimistic here that maybe common sense will prevail
I wonder if we have seen this assertion made and responded to a hundred times yet in the last couple months. It’s got to be close.
No matter how this trade turns out, teams that make this kind of trade end up on the losing end more often than not. You can throw whatever rationalizations at it you want; it remains the kind of trade typical of bad organizations. The Mariners have at best slightly improved their negligible chances of winning next year, and sacrificed better chances in the future to do it. If you can’t see that, then you are overrating the impact of a Bedard-type pitcher and underrating the impact of a Jones-type outfielder, not just in the future but right now. In a word, you’re wrong. The trade might work — stupider trades have worked — but it’s a bad trade, that can only work — that is to say, bring the Mariners a championship now — with a huge helping of wishing and luck
I have the tally at 124 times.