We’re Back! (uhh, and some moves, too)
Sorry about that disappearance, guys – technical snafu. But we should be good to go now.
Clement and Balentien officially up, with Norton and Wilkerson going away. Wlad is the new starting RF, and Clement will probably DH vs right handers for now.
There’s a few different topics of conversation here. Here’s a quick overview:
1. The team has to be applauded for taking swift action when faced with the reality that they misjudged the talent on the roster this winter. We’ve seen them take far, far longer than this in the past, dragging the corpses of Carl Everett and the like into the deep summer while the team falls out of contention. Adam Jones wasted three months of productive baseball sitting down in Tacoma last year after it was obvious that he could help the team, and the team flatly refused to let him make the team better. They learned from that mistake, and have reacted swiftly to the understanding that they had internal options that were better than the guys they had around. Kudos to Bavasi, McLaren, and company.
2. The service time thing is a more interesting issue than is currently being discussed. Yes, the M’s could have pushed free agency for Clement back a year by waiting to do this move until next week, and for some people, that’s enough to call this move stupid. But the Mariners aren’t ignorant of that fact – they just have a different set of beliefs about how that should affect roster decisions. You don’t have to agree with those beliefs (I don’t think I do, but I am willing to admit that they have something of a point on the lack of ethics of intentionally holding a guy down when you believe he’s ready), but you should be willing to admit that it’s not ignorance that drove that decision.
3. With Wilkerson and Norton going away, it appears that Balentien is being handed the right field job on a daily basis, because the only other outfielder on the bench is Willie Bloomquist. It will be interesting to see whether the team begins to look for a left handed veteran if Balentien doesn’t start hitting immediately, and with his skillset, there’s a decent chance that he could struggle adjusting to major league pitching.
4. I don’t expect Clement to see any time behind the plate except in case of an emergency. With Johjima and Burke around, and the organization still not being too high on Clement’s defense, I’d imagine he’ll just DH against right-handed pitchers and be used as a pinch hitter when he doesn’t start. I don’t think Clement coming up means anything to the playing time of the two catchers already here.
5. Seriously, what does this organization see in Miguel Cairo?
6. My projections for what Clement and Balentien will do now that they’re up? .240/.300/.390 for Wlad and .270/.350/.470 for Clement.
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Welcome back.
Perhaps the M’s didn’t get the memo that Clement owns soft tossing lefties…
So Clement’s probably not starting tonight? Oh well, progress is progress.
Ignored the domain expiration emails, eh?
Jeez, why Norton? Norton at least was hitting the ball! Why not that worthless Cairo?
Here’s to hoping McLaren does something for which I can praise him. He said those guys are going to play once they are up. Let’s see if it happens.
So exciting – I’ve been checking this site constantly as this story broke. Interesting decisions all around – although I am very very happy that Wlad is going to get the every day start in RF – give him a consistent chance to make a difference.
Maybe b/c Wilkerson got 3 hits yesterday we can get somebody for him
I don’t understand why Cairo is still on the team either. But at least we finally have some progress! Hopefully they’ll both play tonight!!
Welcome back, guys, from the technological black hole.
As for Wilk, well…de-de-dum-dum-dum…another one bites the dust.
Free Wlad!!!
Vidro is more useless than Wilk, he should have been the one cut.
Is it true that Wlad & Clement were only about 7 days from extending their FA clock one year?
No more Willie Broomstick, Corner Outfielder!!!
Of all the guys doing what they’ve been asked to do…Norton was one of them. I recognize that he’s not somebody you want to count on for production when you’re expecting to make the playoffs, BUT, is Cairo?? And Vidro??
Yeah, Wilkerson made a lot of sense but the Norton move baffled me. Yeah, he’s a 1B/DH (as is half the team) but he’s hitting (for now at least) and is soooo much more useful than Turbo. Plus he doesn’t have a bajillion dollar option for 2009 that’s getting closer and closer to vesting. I don’t think given Vidro’s batting average and slugging percentage that the players union could say we were cutting him just so his option didn’t vest.
#13…maybe Norton was asking to be DFA’d so he could play more. There could have been something behind the scenes that went on.
Yeah, that’s the other thing. I’d heard the team was going to wait until May 7 to call them up so not to burn their service time prematurely.
I guess they’re taking this “win now” thing seriously. Not quite seriously enough to build a winner, in my opinion, but it’s a change from last year.
What?? Cairo is better then Wilk? Cairo is better then Norton. Really? In fact Wilk is so done that Wlad is the answer? The roster did just get younger and more fun to watch in my eyes… I am so confused and upset that I am going to concentrate on finals week coming up.
Well played Bavasi, well played.
OPS this year:
Norton: 1.063
Wilkerson: .652
Cairo: .167
Vidro: .600
Willie: .500
So, we need to change the bench. Let’s get rid of the two guys hitting the best so far? (I understand this is very small sample size).
Cairo continuing to be on the roster just boggles my mind, but I echo Dave’s sentiment that I’m glad to see these moves being made now rather than in June, the service time issue notwithstanding.
Seems to me it would make sense to bring up Reed as a fourth outfielder and dismiss Cairo post haste. Reed would be useful to permit Wlad to rest against tough righties and he could provide a defensive caddie for Ibanez. Cairo is completely useless to us with Willie ahead (?!?!)of him….
I can’t really understand that Norton move at this point, either…especially if you’re still hanging onto Vidro and Cairo.
So, McLaren says that guys need to hit to stay on the team, looking squarely at Wilkerson as he says it, and then Wilkerson goes out and goes 3 for 3, and THEN we cut him…
Well I’ll take it, but it makes the team look mentally deranged.
I would rather have kept Wilkerson than Cairo, as it happens, but since Cairo hasn’t yet shown that he can’t do what the team signed him to do (be like Willie, but less good), I suppose that was too much to hope for.
I bet Cairo goes by by soon, and will see a deal where a new back up INF comes in and another OF is brought in. Also Wlad I hope with all hope hits .260/.310/.390 the extra 20 pts in avg may not change much but it would be nicer to look at
.
So, Mac on the pregame said Vidro is going to play some 1B now that Clement is up.
According to Baker, Vidro will see some more time at 1b. Any chance they start working Clement in that direction if Vidro continues to “produce” at his current level? Along with Sexson for that matter.
It’s just good to see them making moves to try to correct problems when they have the pieces that could help; unlike last year.
Not mentioned – hopefully Clement as DH drives a stake through the heart of Vidro’s option. That cancels out the arbitration side of service time, although not the free agency part.
So, there has been basically no mention of the fact that the M’s just had to wait just 7 days to call up Clement and Balentein, and they would have had them for another year. Why would any sane organization sacrifice a whole year of service of two of your best prospects for one week in early May? Am I the only one who thinks this is nuts?
I heard Geoff Baker today on KJR with Groz, and he said that the Ms can still make up those days in the minors to preserve the years before free agency if the guys spend those same number of days in the minors–i.e., since Clement was up for 27 days last fall, he needs to be in the minors for 27 days to cancel that out, but those 27 days don’t have to be right now. Can anyone else confirm this–or explain it better?
Speaking of valuable bench players. How about one with pop that can also… oh … start.
Micah Owings hit a pinch hit home run this afternoon against Houston.
OK – no further piling on the Cairo issue.
I don’t get dumping Norton and keeping Cairo. Surely they’ve noticed that they’re not using Cairo at all, and that Norton is hitting well.
Dave’s got a point on the ethics of the promotion situation, and how it relates to free agency. How would you feel if the ownership at your office held over an existing manager for an extra couple of weeks, denying you a promotion that you’d rightfully earned, so they could maneuver the tax situation to their advantage and save a whole lot of money? (Which is as close as I can get, analogy-wise.)
You’d be honked off. And you’d have a darned good reason for it.
8mask….Yes, I just got some more info., and I think you’re right. That makes me feel better. Otherwise, I would have to think that Bavasi and co. had truly lost it. So, I guess we can expect Clement and Wlad to go back down for a bit at some point.
More moves to come? I’m having flashbacks to 1998 when we made roster moves in June so that should have been made in, I don’t know, February or March? Isn’t that what the off-season is for? So you can try out these things BEFORE THE #$#$#@ GAMES COUNT IN THE %$^%$^% STANDINGS! ‘exhales’
Well, as long as they stick to a 4 man bench and insist that Willie is the 4th OF, don’t you have to have Cairo and Willie on the team? What if Yuni and Ichiro collide on a pop up and both need to come out? If your bench is Vidro-Norton-Bloomquist-Burke what do you do? Norton is center? Vidro at short?
Now I’m not saying a Cairo-Vidro-Bloomquist-Burke bench is any better. I either would have kept Wilkerson on jettisoned Cairo or called up Reed for Cairo. Reed probably makes the most sense. He really is a a good option as the 4th outfielder, defensive replacement for Ibanez, and pinch runner. Of course it probably makes even more sense to go with an 11 man pitching staff and call up Reed as well.
From Baker’s blog:
Not that I agree – but I can at least understand the logic of Cairo over Norton based on that explanation. I’m not sure this move will be enough but it is a move in the right direction.
Sorry about the bquote goof – first time user.
The service time question seems a red herring to me. If Clement proves to be such a valuable weapon that we want to keep him long past free agency, as I hope, then he can be signed to a long term deal while we’re going through the arbitration years with him and the whole question becomes moot.
Doing the right thing frequently works out better for everyone involved than playing silly contractual games.
Griffey anyone?
Sorry..just had to throw that in there…
Good Luck Norton..I think that guy coulda helped this team more than Cairo ever will…
Oh well…Go M’s!!
Essentially planning to send Clement & Wlad back to the minors to spare the arb clock is worse than the ethics involved in waiting 7 days. What if Clement puts on his Hafner pants and kills it? Are you still going to send him down to save those 365 days you could have saved by waiting 7 days in April/May? Hell no.
I’m happy enough to see moves like this being made early in the season that the service time thing is a non-issue, for me.
These moves by themselves aren’t as significant as the fact that they indicate a sea change in the way the organization deals with underperforming veterans; that is reason enough to celebrate.
As far as sending them down to try to “fix” their service time clocks, I’m pretty sure the MLBPA would file a grievance over that, and probably with a good chance of winning.
Reaaaaaaaally curious why it was Wilkerson instead of Cairo that got given the boot.
Love the move, surprised it actually happened, but love it none the less…..but seriously, to echo the many comments above….why not Cairo?
I literally SCREAMED with enthusiasm after I heard about Vlad and Clement coming up. This means nothing but a more productive offense in the future. Thank you, Mariners organization, for acting swiftly, and putting the gears in motion to help this ballclub. I am immensely impressed and satisfied with the moves.
Mr. Egaas,
Obviously Jose Lopez can only hit when Miguel Cairo is looking over his shoulder. Or at least I’m sure that’s the logic they are using.
Change is good and always welcome when the time is right, but the never-ending train of poor decisions and future planning this organization has engineered within the last calendar year is almost as staggering as the fact it has been allowed to continue for as long as it has.
The service time question seems a red herring to me. If Clement proves to be such a valuable weapon that we want to keep him long past free agency, as I hope, then he can be signed to a long term deal while we’re going through the arbitration years with him and the whole question becomes moot.
Ding, ding, ding! Considering how arduous Bavasi has always been about buying out the arbitration years of his teams’ best young players, I think the whole service time argument is a non-issue.
48:
Assuming Clement is willing to do that after Seattle just signed Kenji to a 3-year extension.
Dave Clapper beat me to it, that was what I was going to point out, if Clement struggles you send him back down anyway so no issue, if does go Hafner on the league, no problem you are gonna buy out his arb years anyway.
What a relief! I was afraid that USS Mariner had been sold and moved to Oklahoma City.
Finally some good news. This is literally as excited as I have been about this team since before the Bedard trade.
Great point on the ethics of the free agent clock. Looking at it that way, I approve of the club doing the ‘honorable’ thing.
I was planning to ignore the rest of the games this week in favor of GTA IV, but I will have to postpone my play sessions until after the games now!
Now, to find a lefty bat that can play LF and let Raul DH. Baby steps…
Are you kidding? Where I’m reading it’s been talked about incessantly. Dave addressed it in this very post, the one you’re responding to, in point number 2.
What is Cairo’s value? He can’t hit or run and he plays less than WFB defense at fewer positions. They are the same player, but one is clearly superior for the given role. When The Igniter looks like a potent force when compared to you, you officially have no baseball worth!
Does Cairo have pics of Lincoln and Armstrong during ‘alone time’?
Our bench is now fully devoid of bats that present any threat of harm to opponents. Clement may help in this regard but he has to be considered unproven at this point.
If it is an either/or scenario I’ll take Norton over Cairo and Fast Food Vidro (FFV!).
As for Vidro….. If they let his dozen Tillamook Cheeseburger eating arse make that plate appearance option…………Or does the “Plate Appearance” clause have nothing to do with baseball?
What kind of influence might he wreak upon young Jose Lopez? Lopie isn’t too many Monster Thickburgers from turning into Luis Sojo or, God forbid a really short Carlos Lee. God help us.
Given this is the only team geographically able to provide FFV with a daily dose of Burgerville, I can see why he likes it here. George Propstra meet the Law of Unintended Consequences!
This does take away some of the bitterness of Jones not playing in 2007.
I can’t help it…Mole (Austin Powers)
Not to mention, a Dick’s Hamburgers or Kidd Valley on just about every corner as well.
My hunch is that he’s solely the insurance policy in case Lopez flops. The only thing I can think of is that they aren’t yet completely sold on Lopez, ergo they decide to keep Cairo on a bit longer.
I’d assume they’re very happy with Lopez thus far, so Cairo may not be around a great deal longer.
I actually think it’s a pretty honorable position that Bavasi’s taking here, but probably not in the best interests of the club. He comes across (Bavasi that is) as an insanely loyal dude, to the point that it harms the club – he hangs on to veterans until they’re past the expiration date, he defers all on-field decisions to the manager, the Wlad/Clement service time issue above, etc.
He seems like an ideal boss – the kind of guy you’d love to work for because he’d have your back but since no one else in the league is as decent a guy as he is, it comes back to bite him in the ass. It’s not like Clement and/or Balentien are that likely to reciprocate by taking ‘hometown discounts’ if they turn into stars but maybe I’m just being cynical.
I may have this wrong, but Clement still has option years, right? So if he starts next year in the minors for a month or so, maybe his FA can be pushed back a year after all. Am I talking out of my ass here?
Okay, I’d just like a moment to briefly defend Vidro (gasp). I simply don’t understand why everyone here hates him so much. JV is currently 2nd on the Ms in RBIs and last year had one of the highest averages in the 2nd half of any player. Yes I understand that he’s slow, not a good fielder, and gets mostly singles. These things are MAJOR holes in his game. Still…Vidro would not make sense to drop for a minor leaguer, no matter how promising he is. He’s a .300 hitter with nearly 5,000 atbats! I would have sent Cairo and Wilk down.
P.S. Great McLaren quote for today: (about Cliff Lee) “He’s probably one of the best pitchers going right now.” Hmmmm…27 scoreless would probably make him one of the best right now. Probably.
The problems with Vidro cannot be seen by looking at things like RBI or batting average.
And how the hell Vidro’s even second on the team in RBI’s at this point to begin with remains as one of life’s great mysteries.
Batting Average and RBIs are very much outdated stats. They’re the equivalent of using ERA to judge a pitcher. Teams who do that are behind the times and getting outsmarted by folks using better methods. Probably USSM needs a companion piece to Dave’s “Why ERA is bad” post dealing with BA and RBIs, but here’s the nutshell version:
Batting average is an ineffective measurement because it completely fails to account for walks and XBHs, which are very important. Edgar Martinez was a high average hitter, but his Batting Average alone only accounted for about 60% of his offensive value over his entire career. Walks, doubles and HRs were 40% of his game (triples too, all 15 he ever hit). For guys like Ortiz or Frank Thomas, power is an even bigger part. Pujols and Manny both clock in at about the same split as Edgar. Even Ichiro provides over 20% of his offensive value through something other than singles.
RBIs are a bogus stat because they depend more on luck than skill. Vidro has no control over whether guys are on base when he comes to the plate or not, and he (along with everyone else) gets hits with men on at about the same rate as not. Vidro’s career BA: .300. Vidro’s career BA with RISP: .297. He doesn’t get better with ducks on the pond.
Edgar’s a .312 hitter with over 7000 ABs. Age and injury take their toll on everyone.
Good points all around. I guess I need to break my old habits and start paying closer attention to OPS, OBP etc. Regardless, I refuse to believe that Vidro is not MLB caliber. I wouldn’t cry if he started platooning though.
@ et_blankenship:
“puts on his Hafner pants” is just an awesome phrase. Well done.
And pretty well done to the M’s for making these moves. We can argue all we want about choice of timing and who to send down, but I think all agree this will help, and that it’s a step in the right direction.