Clement down, Reed up, Mariners still dumb
The best thing that could be happening would be
Ibanez –> DH
Reed –> LF/RF (with Wlad to left)
And the more painful option would be
Reed to bench
Vidro to DH
Updated: Hickey confirms that it’s the more painful option. THANKS MARINERS! Let no win go untreasured there. Why did I even bother considering that they might be making a positive move here?
Clement wasn’t hitting, certainly, but in a way this is just Adam Jones’ callup last year redux: Clement proved his bat was ready for the major leagues and there wasn’t much left for him, offensively at least, to learn in Tacoma. None of that’s changed unless we’re going to argue that failure in the majors gives him a to-do list of flaws to correct (if so, I’d love to know what that is).
To Reed… Reed came over in the Garcia trade, didn’t hit, didn’t hit, and has been stuck in Tacoma ever since.
Right now he’s hitting .349/.413/.557 in Tacoma. Last year he hit .300/.354/.452.
Who knows what to make of that. He certainly plays capable outfield defense, which the team desperately needs even as an outfield sub.
I favored using Reed or Jimerson as a backup OF from the start, but now — this goes to the heart of one of the few basic disagreements I have with Dave and many other baseball people, and I’ll illustrate it with an example where I was totally wrong.
Take Sean Douglass. Baltimore farm system product, racked up some huge strikeout numbers and nice ratios in the minors without having scout-lauded stuff. Then he pretty much sucked in the majors over his couple of years bouncing back and forth.
I’m totally in favor of giving players like that a shot if there’s an opportunity. All players have holes in their games that some people think will keep them from being effective – heck, Minnesota gave up on David Ortiz (released him!) and once you look at them with that knowledge, it’s easy to see it reinforced.
Reed’s 27, these are his peak years, and he’s now gone from really nice prospect to almost inexplicable major league washout (even the wrist thing doesn’t do those seasons justice) to frustrated AAA masher. I don’t have a complicated explanation for the why. I’d just play him and see what happens.
The side effect of this is that when someone like Douglass doesn’t succeed, I have conversations that go
“I told you he didn’t have a major-league quality out pitch.”
“Yeah yeah yeah.”
If Reed can hit and play a corner outfield position, it’s a huge boon for the Mariners.
If he can’t hit and play a quality defensive substitute and be a lefty pinch-hitter and spot starter, that’s a boon for the Mariners.
I’m all for giving him a shot and seeing what happens. The M’s suck right now — they can only improve.
The bad news is that again, the team will have cut someone more useful in order to hold on to Vidro and Cairo, who are both useless players on this roster.
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Best case: Reed to LF, Ibanez to DH, Vidro to sit.
If it is Reed going to LF, then it’s a good move all around. Huzzah(???) Mariners.
Drayer already said on the post-game that Mac says Vidro is going back to the regular DH.
Sounds like we’re looking at “the more painful option”.
Of course. I thought the M’s were figuring out the whole veteran thing when they called up Clement and Wlad to replace Vidro and Wilkerson. Apparenlty Vidro wasn’t getting replaced, he just needed some rest for his back.
…Insert string of profanity here…
I think Reed’s time is right now! Plug him in and put Ibanez at DH for cryin’ out loud. By the by… Where did the info come that Clement was sent down?
Looks like those question marks were warranted.
More like BAH! Mariners.
Is there any reasonable explanation for Vidro still being on the roster? What does he do well?
Brilliant. Bring up a hot hitter and stick him on the bench so he loses his rhythm.
Awesome.
sheesh.
First of all the FO made a mistake of signing Turbo, now they are going to double that mistake by letting him play again, because there is always the pressure that so much money sits on the bench. I say release and call up Clement to be the regular DH now that teh season is down the drain. And cheer for Sexson so we could get rid off him via trade.
The M’s are still trying to win. Little do they know it won’t happen.
Oh well, w/e.
Wait, what? What has Turbo done to merit even one more at-bat?
How do they continue to make all these moves that defy any logic?
They’re probably still looking for an option at DH, especially if Vidro keep on being, well, Vidro. I think they made this pretty clear with trying to sign Frank Thomas.
Who knows what they’re planning or even thinking of.
My prediction: Reed is used as a late-inning defensive replacement for Wlad, and to pinch-hit for Johjima against tough RHP relievers late in games. Reed will strike out a couple of times with the tying run on 2nd, make a bad throw from the OF, and be traded for either a RH setup guy in his late thirties coming off arm surgery, or a RH DH/PH in his late thirties who hit .270 with 100 RBIs five years ago in the National League, and will be the color guy on someone’s Spanish Language broadcast next year.
JMHawkins, that prediction really ticks me off. Because it’s probably going to come true and that will make me very, very sad.
I don’t think Bavasi would trade Reed for a veteran set-up man or bat. I think he’d trade Clement for such a player. Reed, he’d just DFA.
and be traded for either a RH setup guy in his late thirties coming off arm surgery, or a RH DH/PH in his late thirties who hit .270 with 100 RBIs five years ago in the National League, and will be the color guy on someone’s Spanish Language broadcast next year.
Or be traded for a left handed, over-the-hill injury-prone outfielder in the national league is is closing in on 600 career home runs.
Wow. This franchise is not going to win for many years. The pirates and royals have rejigged their organizations recently. Going forward, what franchises will challenge the Ms for woeful decision making? Giants, Astros, Reds, Orioles, Rangers might have cases. But the Orioles just fleeced the Mariners on a trade.
Wake me up when something newsworthy happens….
I agree; why arent they both on the squad
Quote on Baker’s blog, Bavasi ’splainin’ why Clement was sent down:
Dog bite man, M’s dumb as a box of rocks. I was on the “maybe Bavasi’s learning” bandwagon (well, I think it was more like a string quartet wagon), but I’m off it now.
He’s a great guy, I wish I had more reason to think he was going to upgrade the team’s thinking.
Mariners management never fails to impress *sarcasm*
Instead of releasing Vidro right now so we won’t have to deal with his option, we are going to give him more AB’ so he can earn his vesting option.
Reed in the Line-up > Vidro in the line-up
This is bogus. Another Hot bat gets called up to Rot on the bench. Huzzah!
They are not going to give Clement enough AB’s so he goes down. Agree or disagree with that it doesn’t matter, they just told Jeremy Reed he is coming up to sit on the bench.
I would say screw you, I want to play baseball everyday to improve my game and increase my stock. Call me when you got a spot on the field. You want to play your expensive crappy veterans over me, do it while I am in AAA playing baseball everyday.
Roles. Roles. Roles. The idea that DH is a “role” and there must be a player to fill that role is just dogma on this team. The idea that it’s just a position in the lineup that you can rotate guys through just doesn’t seem to be an option. I’d suggest it’s a hangover from having Edgar all those years that they think they have to have a “DH” on the payroll, but the obsession with roles goes way beyond that.
At least they’re not trading away prospects for Coco Crisp (etc) to get a 4th outfielder. It’s nice that they’ve recognized they have the necessary player in house; it would be nicer if they realized that outfield defense is important (and that certain players are a liability in that regard, even if they are veterans).
I still can’t believe that this team is so badly constructed that not only is Richie “$15M Mendoza” Sexson the starting 1B, but when he was unavailable their only options were Cairo and Vidro.
My guess is that Vidro will be the “regular DH” for about two games, then will suddenly discover he’s injured again, Reed will play left and Raul will DH. Even McLaren has got to realize how many bases Raul has cost us in the field this year. If this happens, another good thing will be moving Wlad up in the lineup where he might actually have someone on base in front of him once in awhile, since I’m imagining Reed bats eighth.
If they knew that already, though, even assuming they came to that realization today, that’s two games they’re punting intentionally.
Two wins in a row and this team still finds a way to massively disappoint and disillusion me. I wasn’t sure if I should laugh or cry when I saw Cairo in LF. Other (well run) teams have to just be openly laughing at how this team is run by now.
What evidence is there for this belief? Mac (and the rest of the M’s FO) really seem to believe Raul is a good OF. He rarely drops a ball, hustles, and makes the occasional spectacular catch (forget that it should’ve been a routine play if he had better wheels, it still looks spectacular). They probably realize he doesn’t have a great arm, which is why they play him in LF (roles and tradition again – RF is for the guy with the cannon, LF is for the other guy, ignoring the ballpark configuration that is SafeCo…).
I see no indication at all that they think he’s a liability in the field. Last year, when they had him and Guillen, Guillen is the guy who got the late inning defensive sub.
They don’t see things the way we do. If they did, we wouldn’t be baffled by the moves they make so frequently.
I didn’t get a chance to watch the game today, but the boxscore from the game right above Betancourt shows with season batting averages:
Bloomquist, LF .147
-Vidro, PH .207
-Cairo, PR-LF .188
I like Reed in leftfield. He couldn’t do any worse than that.
Also, lets not forget David Ortiz aka David Arias was a Mariner before a twin:
#22, Ham — No ballplayer would ever say they want to play everyday in AAA rather than ride the pine in the bigs. Plus, Reed is not going to improve his stock by mashing in Tacoma. At 27, I don’t think scouts from the M’s or other teams are going to radically change their opinion of him. If he does get a chance to play with the M’s and impresses, then opinions of him may change. While I can’t read his mind, it is hard to imagine that Reed would rather be traveling to PCL cities than sitting in the hotel rooms and visiting clubhouses in Detroit and NY, even if he never sees the field.
Can someone remind me why some still consider Bavasi intelligent?
I would argue that there is a particular “role” defined for the DH: getcher shitty defense off mah field, boy (keep up the swingin’ tho!)
31,
There’s a difference between intelligence and knowledge. You can be smart and ignorant.
31 -
There is no good reason. Bavasi is a product of baseball nepotism. Some people think he’s a nice guy, but so am I.
#33-
I don’t know anyone you are refering to, care to enlighten? Any way, it’s a good thing to have Reed on the team because no one is paying attention to him in Tacoma. At least having the occasional opportunity to succeed in the bigs is a huge thing for him. It’s obviouse that starting him in lf/rf and DHing Raul is the best thing for the team, but for Reed maybe the exposure is the best thing for him. He is a guy I almost route for getting traded not for the M’s sake, but I really like him and would like to see him get a real chance in the pros, even if that means on someone else’s roster. I think he is ready and could be a quality guy or at least a replacement level guy for someone. It’s not his fault he got traded to a team run by Homer Simpson’s handycaped cousin.
Not #33, sorry. Comment #35 was for #31.
I don’t disagree with the decision to send Clement down, as he looked pretty clearly in over his head.
I don’t disagree with the decision to bring up Reed, as he has proven he deserves another shot at the bigs.
I disagree vehemently with the decision to give Turbo more ABs. Once again, the M’s incompetence both shocks and amazes me.
I agree with the decision to send Clement down. He wasnt helping the team by hitting .167 up here.
I also agree with giving Reed another chance (although I hope the club hasn’t given up on Dickey— I really like Dickey’s knuckleball, and I think he may be a possible 6th starter should Batista continue to struggle).
I do, however, think that Turbo will rebound. I like his high average last year, and I think that he will hit given the chance. Lately, he has shown signs of coming out of his slump, and I think he should start again as DH
Clement isn’t going to learn to hit big lague pitching at AAA, and he’s already proved he can mash there. He needs to learn here, and there’s no good reason it shouldn’t be now. We’re going nowhere, and Vidro, even if he improves, is not going to be good (and if you think his average last year means he’s good, I suspect you haven’t been reading this weblog very long).
During the NFL draft a memorable comment I read about the Lions and their perpetual mediocrity was, basically, they can reason 90% of the way to a good decision and then they take a bizarro left hand turn into the ditch.
That strikes home here, too. If Bavasi was completely terrible at his job he’d quickly get washed out of the league. But he’s reasonable enough to send Clement down when he’s struggling, reasonable enough to give a defensive outfielder a chance at the MLB, yet fails to fit the last piece of a 3 part jigsaw puzzle RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF HIM.
#38 Flowin…. please keep that information to yourself next time, but thanks for coming out anyway
I am talking about the .314 BA he put up last year in 147 games. I like guys that can hit. And while he certainly doesn’t have the power (or the speed for that matter), I think that someone who can hit above 300 should be in any lineup, nevermind a lineup that currently has staters hitting .196 (Sexson), .221 (Johjima), .241 (Beltre), .147 (Bloomquist), .188 (Cairo), .224 (Balentien)… ect. Yeah.. I think it is fair to give Turbo a shot.
41 – You must be new here. BA is not a good stat to evaluate a hitter.
Turbo has no speed, no power and no defensive value. Having him as our starting DH is embarrassing.
OK.. I agree. I am new here. Well, not really new. I always read your posts and never really comment. But come on guys.. I agree with all of you on most things, but I think you guys are a bit too harsh on some things. I dunno… i just always thought that Turbo was a decent player, and at least he can hit (compared with Sexson, who cant). But I agree, the Ms do need help offensively.
Sexson, despite hitting for a .197 average, still gets on base more than Vidro and hits for way more power.
Vidro was a decent player in 2002. He’s just terrible now, and his number last year were based on him getting a high number of infield hits that he’s not getting this year, plus his injury problems seem to be doing him in.
There’s no reason to be giving Vidro playing time on a team that’s a) going nowhere, b) has a terrible DH and 1B and c) is at rick of triggering Vidro’s option for 2009.
Two years ago the Orioles gave right field to Nick Markakis, who fought .200 for 3 months. The Orioles stuck with him. Now he’s a regular and an all star.
By giving Clement all of 2 weeks to fix his weaknesses against major league pitching they have shown the opposite of patience, they’ve shown front-running and desperation.
I read Bill James in the 80s say that “bad organizations blame youngers for their failures.” He was writing at the time about the 1960s KC Athletics. Who also were in the habit of having young talent regularly get away while they fixated on short term fixes that werent.
Fire Bavasi!
44- Batting average as a measuring stick causes a bit of frustration here – and for some good reasons. It is the most widely quoted batting stat even though it is not a very good one at all.
Bottom line is that it is possible to have a decent batting average and be a terrible hitter. Without power or patience Vidro’s average means little.
So it’s not really true to say his batting average means he can hit. Hitting is a lot more than that… and he doesn’t do it well.
Maybe he’d be decent for a shortstop… but for a DH he is inexcusable.
No team should consider itself a contender if it is using Vidro as a DH.
USA Today had this to say:
“The Mariners said immediately after Sunday’s game that they’re sending down Jeff Clement.
Just another bad decision from a bad team. Clement actually collected a triple and two doubles in his last four starts. If the Mariners really think they’re better off with Jose Vidro at DH, they’re hopeless. Jeremy Reed is expected to take Clement’s roster spot.”
Hear hear.
Fire Bavasi!
I really hope we don’t think we should commiserate with Detroit, or the other failed teams this year. On a short list of teams that hasn’t made it to the World Series yet — that list in danger of weltering in the Florida sun — we should find a unique, compelling, focused, desire to *think* through a plan to give us a shot in the next few years.
Like an article I read recently describing how a certain embattled candidate would get the talk, a realization that it’s over, we need that from someone higher than our GM. The trusted, senior, mature party (FO) figure would come and explain that this is not the time for you to lead. Intelligence, experience, “inevitability†aside, no creative math is going to make it happen.
It makes me fear that it’s a deep cultural problem with the Mariners organization. This team is incapable of making hard, tough decisions – mature, long term decisions that get you beyond the tedium of whether Vidro is “out of his slumpâ€. This is the kind of weakness that toys with an “over-the-hill injury-prone outfielder in the national league†as a solution for the short term.
No, not tedium, failure – a culture of failure.
I want better. I am a Mariners fan, and I want better.
Last year, the Red Sox called up Jacoby Ellsbury and he had an awesome September. The Yankees called up Ian Kennedy and Joba Chamberlain and both helped the team make the playoffs. These are examples of playoff-caliber teams trusting their young players and giving them a chance to succeed. When was the last time the Mariners had a young player come up in the middle of the season, be given a realistic chance to contribute, and succeed?
52: Yuni, I suppose. Or Jose Cruz, Jr. (and we know how that worked out). That would have been the last one where there was actually something at stake. They did call up Pineiro to take a spot start in a doubleheader in Chicago in 2000, but they sent him down again almost immediately even though he did well.
52 – Bucky should count, I suppose. One of the brighter spots to a dismal season.
52: Bob Wolcott. ALCS Game 1. Damn, we should have won that series…
55 -
Damn right we should have won that series.
Just brutal.
I tried to find a Tampa Bay hat at the M’s team store when I went to the game on Saturday (girlfriend’s idea…! ) and they didn’t have any. Um… really?
52: Lest we not forget about WFB’s scorching hot September back in ‘02…
Damn straight we should have!
Here’s a link that seems to capture the sentiment of most concerning the Mariners’ “cognitive deficiencies.”
Re: Bavasi’s combination of intelligence and ineptitude. A lot of people seem to have a really hard time understanding why this should be so. I think that it is just another example of how hard it is for someone who has been trained in, and become invested in, one way of thinking about things to shift to a very different way of thinking about things.
You see exactly the same thing in the sciences when there is a radically new theory in the offing. Even when it seems obviously superior to the old theory, the older generation – the one exclusively trained in the old theory – usally needs to actually *die off* before the new theory can really take hold. Despite scientists being so bright, it is just difficult to switch from one way of thinking to another way of thinking, once you’ve become so involved with the first. Very different views just look crazy.
Problems of theory choice are much more complex than we make them out to be, and this includes the current conflict over how to evaluate talent in baseball. Read Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. It isn’t the be-all and end-all of the philosophy of science, and he overstates his case, but it is something every educated person ought to be familiar with, and is helpful for explaining why smart people can act so foolishly.
Below is the explanation why Vidro will be taking over as Veter- I mean DH:
Bottom 8th: Seattle
- S. Hairston in left field
- W. Balentien struck out swinging
- J. Vidro hit for W. Bloomquist
- J. Vidro singled to center
- M. Cairo ran for J. Vidro
- Y. Betancourt singled to center, M. Cairo to second
- I. Suzuki walked, M. Cairo to third, Y. Betancourt to second
- A. Beltre struck out swinging
- J. Lopez doubled to deep right, M. Cairo and Y. Betancourt scored, I. Suzuki to third
I mean, guy kicked off the game winning inning (fun to say). That’s gritty, vet play at it’s finest. What’d rookie Wlad do? Struck out!
61 – so he got one hit? you think that inning could have just as easily been Wlad getting a hit and Vidro getting out?
yes, this guy does. what is your point?
FORTY EIGHT at bats. What a sample size. How many other statistical tools can they prove unable to comprehend before the year is out?
I’ve been an insanely loyal fan for 20 of my 27 years in existence (resonably large sample size, providing pretty conclusive evidence of being a fan) and they’re pushing me away with such force that I’m not sure what to do. Based on recent events, I’d guess that they’re happier with a one-time walk up ticket for a bobblehead give away (new fan for life!) than the loyal fan who cares how the orginization is run and what direction they’re heading.
I find myself checking what else is on TV even when the M’s are playing. You couldn’t catch me doing that since about 1993.
62- I just bit my tongue!
My point was humor. Sorry for any failure.
64 -
haha oh well , I guess this season has gotten to that point of no return!
62- (again) But honestly, tongue in cheek-ness aside, do we not think that maybe effects the decision? I really don’t know, I hope very much that it doesn’t. But if Vidro strikes out, and Ibanez errors in the 9th, maybe it dawns on them.
But in case I was vague, I wholly agree that Vidro’s empty BA is worthless, especially at DH, especially at his price. We’re not competing, frankly Vidro should have been DFA’d, Reed up, Ibanez DH, fit the three talented rookies in as much as you can to get them major league at bats. I know it’s mid-may, but we raced pretty quickly to this point of the season. Other teams usually get to wait until July/August.
I mean, guy kicked off the game winning inning (fun to say). That’s gritty, vet play at it’s finest. What’d rookie Wlad do? Struck out!
High comedy. I assume this is sarcasm, yes?
Yes, and they’re sticking with Adam Jones now, despite his struggles at the plate and the fact that the Orioles have even been contending. Of course, they may be taking his defense into account, something the Mariners seem completely unable to do.
Baltimore’s taken a lot of deserved abuse for how the team has been run for several years. But they sure look smarter than the Mariners now.
Question – is this literally “on” Ibanez that he’s staying in LF? My suspicion that the desire to not upset the veterans comes from ownership/management rather than specific request from Ibanez (although, I do think that Ibanez/last years RF who I can’t remember) did get caught up in some macho veteran chest thumping…
I must pose a question that I don’t believe was covered… Does anyone think that Bavasi might just be doing this to keep Clement’s service time for one more year?
Captain – If Dave knows the M’s front office as well as he appears to, then Bavasi has adopted the deliberate policy of ignoring “service time” considerations (due to ethical concerns). So, the answer is that this probably isn’t Bavasi’s reasoning right now.
No, I knew that… really, it’s the only thing that makes sense to me with this whole ordeal.
We had the service time debate back in the original call-up thread; without rehashing that again, suffice it to say that Bavasi implied that he didn’t feel it was ethical to move a player up or down to manipulate service time considerations.
So it’s probably not a factor in this move, no.
Does anyone think that Bavasi might just be doing this to keep Clement’s service time for one more year?
This was a sterotypical M’s move with a young player. Frankly, I’m shocked they waited this long to send him back down. At least Clement got better treatment than Adam did whenever he was up.
True.
I don’t have any confidence in how this team develops non-vets and gets them ready for major league baseball.
I’m just in awe that Bavasi could make these moves…how can they even think that Vidro should be an everyday player? It’s ridiculous…he needs to be on the bench doing what he’s done the last couple days…coming in late, getting a pinch hit, then having WFB run for him…
Raul to DH
Reed to LF
‘Nuff said…
20 -
The whole quote, in all its ridiculousness.
Mariners GM, Bill Bavasi
Sweet mother of Bav***
While I realize Clement would be in the majors if he was hitting, I also believe that the lack of patience shown by the front office has a tinge of ethics involved.
If Clement was called up 8 days later would he have gotten a longer stint in the majors regardless of hit output?
Can we please not rehash the service time argument again?
It really doesn’t make any sense, particularly given this team has no shot at contending this year, that Clement is not with the club getting at bats. Then again, it doesn’t make any sense that they gave Kenji another 3 years. Nor does it make any sense Vidro is still on the team, given that better players are still out there sitting by their phones waiting for a team to call (Reggie Sanders may be old, but he out-hit Vidro last year and he has some actual defensive value, just as an example).
I will give them some credit for having this in their plans, though: the standard M’s move would’ve been to DFA Burke when Clement came up, leaving them scrambling for a backup catcher now. This makes me suspect that if they weren’t planning on sending Clement down again (for service time or other reasons) they at least suspected that it might happen. Or maybe they think Burke is a useful mentor for Clement (and possibly some of the young bullpen).
I guess he’s being sent down to “find his stroke” or “regain his confidence” or whatever, then. Because he sure isn’t being sent down to learn to hit major league pitching.
So when he gets called back up, knowing that he has 40 at bats or less to prove himself, he can be completely relaxed, not under any pressure to prove himself right away and avoid getting sent down again.
67- galaxeiboi, thanks. Yes, sarcasm definitely intended.
80- joser, I think with the way Burke’s used, they honestly intended Clement to get pretty regular DH at bats, with some C starts too (like he did). I also honestly think they thought he was ready and would mash. I also honestly think they feel 15 games is enough time to prove that, he didn’t, so they want him to get regular time (since not with the M’s, then in Tacoma).
I think doing this with Clement, all other considerations aside, isn’t that poor of a decision. However, when you’re replacing him with Vidro, calling up another guy tearing up AAA and BENCHING him, that’s the big mistake. Why would you say “But he’s too good a prospect not to be playing everyday” as your reasoning to send down Clement, then bring another good (not as good of course) prospect up to not play everyday? It makes no sense.
Sure it does, with the M’s extreme bias towards “proven” major leaguers.
I guess I’m saying Vidro has “proven” that he is not a major leaguer, and hasn’t been for some time now.
The fact that you are correct in these assumptions is absurd.15 games? That’s just utter ridiculousness and by far and away not enough time.
A-Rod hit .205 in 17 games in 1994. Go figure.
True, I agree. But I’m also saying that a 15 game slump is enough to get a guy (especially a young guy) benched on various teams, and not always a bad decision. It’s a long slump and is hurting the team. However, when your decision is to replace that guy with washed up guy performing even worse, you’re making a huge mistake. At least Clement was benefitting from his at bats, theoretically. Overall, if you bring him, give him more than 15 games since we aren’t contending. Simple
Really, why not all three up? Reed and Balentien in LF/RF or splitting at RF when Ibanez gets some time (minimal!) in the field, Ibanez at DH, with Clement getting DH/C at bats when he can, 4-5 days a week? Is that not enough time for him to develop?
Next year I just hope I can say to my friends here in DC that aren’t fellow Mariners fans; “Vidro who? I don’t even know what you’re talking about.” And then I stick my fingers in my ears, shut my eyes and yell “la,la,la,la,la…” I’m that embarrassed we employ him.
[dupe, please read threads]
I’d also guess that’s probably right. I was also thinking there may be another reason for this announcement – basically that the move + preposterous announcement that Vidro was retuning to the lineup may just be for PR cover.
One possibility is that they are intending for Reed to play but they didn’t want to make an announcement that would impact fan perceptions on the likelyhood of a trade with the Reds. If Ibanez gets entrenched as the DH, then that takes away one of the ‘logical’ reasons for talking to the Reds which could conceivably affect fan interest.
I think we’ll see over the next couple of days whether Bavasi was being on the level or not. I do think they decided Vidro was done a few weeks ago, and it’s definitely hard to believe they’re being on the level when they now declare him as the starting DH. Especially when they’re making roster moves that would obviously call for him remaining on the bench or being DFA’d.
Wow. I hope those conspiracy theories are correct. But I don’t know, is Bavasi capable of “the sneakiness”? He doesn’t seem to up to covert ops that often. I think it makes his head hurt.
After writing that, all I could think of was 2 weeks down the road, Reed’s in LF, Ibanez DH-ing, Balentien RF, Vidro getting splinters. Mariners start getting those coveted 6 game win streaks. Then John Turturro, as Bill Bavasi, has a press conference and says with a knowing gleam in his eye “I think you are underestimating the sneakiness.”
This whole front office isn’t capable of such sneakiness. They make Maxwell Smart look like James Bond or Flint.
They are as sneaky as Walter Jones sneaking into the ball pit and McDonalds.
I was under the impression that the FO’s statements can basically be taken with a grain of salt, that everything gets filtered to adhere to the PR policy. Basically the PR department wags the organizational dog so to speak.
The really weird thing is the Joh extension – I can’t think of a reason why you’d do it, unless you’d reached a conclusion that Clement was never going to cut it behind the plate.
I think Matthew at LL nailed it in his series preview for the Tigers today – this move looks like it could make sense if it’s all a smokescreen (but with the caveat that it’s also opening the door for much worse moves to come).
Smokescreen? Are we hoping they’ll skip Verlander’s start or something?
“Okay, Verlander, you’ve been struggling, and the M’s DH is freakin’ Jose Vidro, so you know, we’re just gonna give you 9 days rest.”
Then BAM! Jeremy Reed LF, Ibanez DH. Didn’t see that one coming, did you Smokey McLeyland!
I can only hope. Wait, no, I can’t even bring myself to do that.
We’d better hope that it’s not to get Clement down to AAA and “looking good” so he can be traded…if he gets sent to the Reds for “you know who”…argh…
No, more of a ‘planning for next year’ kind of smokescreen.
I really don’t think that Bavasi has any clue as to what he’s doing. Quite frankly, everything he does seems to piss me off more and right now, as a die hard fan since 1993 when I transfered up here with the military, the wife is a die hard fan as well, and we’ve decided that while this team maintains the status quo, we’re not giving that organization another plug nickel.
I’m sick and tired of being crapped on as a fan, and being pandered to by yet another giveaway (that now seems to be occurring almost daily) to bribe me into coming to a game. Summer is coming, the weather over the weekend was beautiful, and I want to spend some quality time watching baseball. It pisses me off to no end that the team that I love seems to have a much stronger desire to relive 1995 (and just wait, it’s only 3 more years until the 10th anniversary of 2001) than it does to correct the idiocy of the current regime.
Meh. I think that takes more organizational acumen than this crew has.
They’re consensus driven, not very nimble, not very flexible. That’s a problem even if you have competent people and they can recognize competency. It’s even worse when they don’t and they can’t.
You may be right – I’m definitely speculating but at the same time, I don’t think there’s been much of a debate that the M’s are competently run from a financial perspective – the issue has been the on-field product, which at times has been impacted by PR concerns.
Look at the attendance figures, it seems like they’ve been pretty adept at maximizing fan attendance despite putting terrible teams on the field for a few years.
It is amazing what a groundscrew dance, rally fries, and giveaways would do to the average seattle-ite.
kill me now.
The short term of the move doesn’t really matter…they sucked before the move and will after…the long term will be brutal if they are trading away Clement, his develpment suffers from being back in AAA, or if Vidro’s option kicks in…
I don’t think the M’s organization is capable of sneakiness, but they’re certainly capable of self-delusion.
However, the reigning king of delusion lives somewhere to the south of us.
Keep in mind that not only do the Giants (17-28) have a worse record than the M’s (18-27), they’re much further behind their division leader (12.5 games vs 7.5) and they’re further behind in the wild card (8.5 vs 7.5). Yes, the Giants, “one of the most improved teams in baseball.”
I still cant get over the headline of this thread
“Clement down, Reed up, Mariners still dumb”
Well done. Nicely Played.
Attendance is clearly down this year, and doesn’t look to improve (the usual bump from summer weather and school vacation, of course, but not as much as other years). The last time attendance took a significant hit we got the Sexson and Beltre contracts. This offseason should prove… interesting. (In the spirit of fan friendly gimmicks, can I hereby proactively dub Griffey “Mr Human Rally Fries”?)
SF-Barry Bonds+Aaron Rowand=most improved. Screw SABRMetrics, that’s SABEANMetrics.
Seriously though, if you’ve only “got a chance to stay in and around third place” isn’t that the answer to the question why not?
And agreed jspektor, the title of the post is great.
When a thread discussing the general ineptitude of the FO gains more attention (posts) than an actual game thread.. some changes need to be made.
I honestly think Bavasi is coasting on macho bravado. He’s a guy’s guy through and through, and can slap backs with the best of them, and he’s loud and brash and intimidating. I think he’s sitting there right now, completely flummoxed that his answers aren’t working, but he will never in a million years admit that his basic approach is wrong. But it is: playing Vidro at this point is inexcusable.
79 Jeff Nye-
Sorry about rehashing old arguments, that wasn’t my intention. I was merely trying to somehow understand the move. Figured that would be a logical explanation.
Maybe I misread the initial post, but why will the Mariner’s have to cut somebody in order to keep Vidro and Cairo?
Also, what is Reed’s status with the team, he turns 27 in a few weeks, at what point will he be unable to be sent back to Tacoma (no more options) and somebody else can claim/sign him?