Quote of the day

DMZ · May 21, 2008 at 8:26 am · Filed Under Mariners 

“”We’re happy with our defense in the outfield,” he replied.
– McLaren, to Baker

Normally, I’d shrug this off — I mean whatever, he’s not going to slag Ibanez publicly. But there’s every reason to believe this is what he actually thinks. Despite the team’s ineptitude at getting outs, they don’t sub out for Ibanez regularly and last year (as pointed out earlier in comments) they would sub for Jose Guillen and not Raul. There’s no evidence at all that they’re just trying to protect his reputation while making accomodations for his near-total immobility.

No, the M’s really are happy with their outfield defense.

They’re happy with a league-worst defense. I’m not.

Comments

150 Responses to “Quote of the day”

  1. msb on May 21st, 2008 8:33 am

    I think this is the headline of the day:

    “After Leyland preaches accountability in pregame meeting, Tiger bats come alive”

    wonder what Mac thinks about accountability.

  2. Sentinel on May 21st, 2008 8:41 am

    I’ve heard a lot about how other crappy teams are calling team meetings to try and work things out. I know Bud Black of the Padres just did this. I wonder if McLaren has called a team-only meeting yet? Or how about some of our clubhouse leaders calling a players-only meeting?

  3. DMZ on May 21st, 2008 8:45 am

    What, are you serious? McLaren’s had a ton of team meetings.

  4. jspektor on May 21st, 2008 8:46 am

    It seems that the M’s are also satisfied with complete, and utter mediocrity. Some would say futility.

  5. Mariner Fan in CO Exile on May 21st, 2008 8:49 am

    I think Baker misquoted him. Certainly he must have said, “We’re happy with our defense in the outfield between left center and right center.” That’s gotta be what he meant, right? Right? I haven’t been watching many games lately – work has been crazy and it’s hard to get motivated. How has Wlad been looking out there defensively?

  6. Spanky on May 21st, 2008 8:56 am

    I think the M’s need to be renamed the Lazy Acres MLB Resthome…a tranquil place where old and declining players can go to finish out their careers in rest and relaxation. Where nobody will point out their declining skills. Where Managers allow them to play and get at bats while not tarnishing their reputations by replacing them with a better defensive player or a pinch hitter.

    Young and hungry ML-ready players in the farm system? No worries! Their psyche will be toyed with and beaten down to make you look good by just giving them irregular play and then they’ll either be shipped down or traded away for another ready for retirement veteran.

    Yes, this is the place to rest and relax and finish out dying embers of a once productive career!

  7. msb on May 21st, 2008 8:56 am

    and the players have had a players meeting. and they have had coaches/’leaders’ meetings. and …..

  8. pygmalion on May 21st, 2008 8:59 am

    Baker has been awfully grouchy recently, but it is actually going out and asking questions like this that make him so valuable at the Times.

  9. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 9:10 am

    Watching the game last night, and yes I watched the whole game, it was sadly funny to watch all those balls that were ripped into the gap b/w ICHIRO! and Raul…most times Raul didn’t even get on camera…maybe all the extra Us in RAUUUUUL are what has slowed him down the last few years…he’s dreadful out there…

    They HAVE to understand that Reed in Left and Raul to DH will help both the offense and defense right? Oh, sorry, I forgot about that new DH they called up…that Vidro kid…

  10. Sklyansky on May 21st, 2008 9:23 am

    McClaren and Bavasi measure defensive ability differently from rational minded people. This one guy on Baker’s blog said Ibanez isn’t that bad, he gives 100% (I’m surprised he didn’t say 110%), and you can’t ask for much more from a team’s LF. I’m certain that McClaren shares this mindset.

  11. Spanky on May 21st, 2008 9:26 am

    Why doesn’t someone sit down with Raul and explain how he could possibly the left-handed hitting beloved Edgar? Try to show him that by going to DH, he’ll receive all the love from this town that Edgar did and could possibly prolong his career?

    That would allow Reed in Left and Raul to be the perfect LH DH. Long live the Mariner DH!!! Long live Rauuuuul at DH!!

  12. Max Power on May 21st, 2008 9:27 am

    Why doesn’t someone sit down with Raul and explain how he could possibly the left-handed hitting beloved Edgar? Try to show him that by going to DH, he’ll receive all the love from this town that Edgar did and could possibly prolong his career?

    Because they think he’s a good LF.

  13. smb on May 21st, 2008 9:29 am

    I don’t know that they really measure, anyway…it seems to me like they get a “hunch” from observation, mash it together with veteran grit with a mortar and pestle, and come up with an irrefutable conclusion, like our outfield D being satisfactory.

    What was Baker’s response to this comment, if any…anyone know off-hand?

  14. JE on May 21st, 2008 9:32 am

    I think it is about time that someone gives us the link etc. (as with the Bedard issue) to express our displeasure with the direction that team is going, not that anyone will listen. I would hope though with numerous e-mails etc. that they would since we are consumers of their product. It seems to me that 1. They don’t care, I hope they do, 2. The manager doesn’t have a clue as to his true role, he should and 3. When a pitcher is getting shelled where are the pitching coach and manager? Why wait until you are 4 or 5 runs down before you even visit the mound? There is something wrong with the basics here. It just seems that from the top down that they are “just there”. I am sure that there are exceptions in the organization but they are hard to spot on my t.v. set or newspaper.

  15. Manzanillos Cup on May 21st, 2008 9:37 am

    I was going to make a joke about Raul not having that many errors (so he must not be that bad!), but no, not only is his range terrible, he makes a lot of errors for an outfielder too.

  16. Max Power on May 21st, 2008 9:37 am

    I don’t know that they really measure, anyway…it seems to me like they get a “hunch” from observation, mash it together with veteran grit with a mortar and pestle, and come up with an irrefutable conclusion, like our outfield D being satisfactory.

    After watching this for a couple of years, the only thing I can conclude is that they grade defense sort of the same way you get grades in Kindergarten – ie, no number/letter grades – just a notion of unsatisfactory/satisfactory/outstanding.

    They’d then see Reed as ‘Satisfactory’ just like Ibanez – Ibanez doesn’t get ‘Outstanding’ because he has no range and Reed gets docked (much the way Jones did last year) because he hasn’t proven himself. They may be semi-conscious of the fact that Reed > Ibanez but they don’t likely think it’s a significant difference.

    This quote just shows they haven’t the foggiest idea of what they’re doing. I’ve been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on a lot of this stuff, assuming that the public statements were just PR and that behind the scenes they had a clue but this seals it – McLaren could have said any number of things (“we’ll use him as we see fit” for example) – I don’t see any other way around concluding that this is an accurate reflection of the organizational mentality.

  17. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 9:41 am

    I’m surprised that ICHIRO! hasn’t flat out told Mac, “Please get Raul the hell out of here and get me some help.”

    Probably too classy for that…

  18. DMZ on May 21st, 2008 9:50 am

    I’m surprised he hasn’t told McLaren “Please just let me go with eight fielders, and I’ll play center-left-center and Wlad will play right field. Have Ibanez back up first or something useful.”

  19. fermorules on May 21st, 2008 9:52 am

    I just had a thought (after listening to Baker on KJR)….

    Do you suppose if Lincecum had been the out-of-town guy and Morrow the local guy, that Bavasi would have gone with Lincecum?

  20. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 9:55 am

    Maybe if we bat our pitcher in the DH spot (we can’t do any worse) they will let us have a 10th fielder so we can have Raul play rover…he MIGHT get to a couple of balls…

  21. msb on May 21st, 2008 9:56 am

    Do you suppose if Lincecum had been the out-of-town guy and Morrow the local guy, that Bavasi would have gone with Lincecum?

    no.

  22. Jeff Nye on May 21st, 2008 9:57 am

    Ichiro should borrow the equipment from the grounds crew and draw a little white line in left-center field.

    “Raul, don’t come past this line. Ever.”

  23. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 9:59 am

    I doubt Raul has the range to even get to any line drawn…he sure can’t get to the foul line…

  24. DMZ on May 21st, 2008 10:00 am

    Just draw a circle around him.

  25. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:03 am

    I kinda feel bad for all this ripping of Raul, cause he can hit, and seems like a very nice guy when he gives interviews (Baker must LOVE him) but then I just get even more pissed because he HAS to know he hurts the team out there, he didn’t disclose his injury last year which hurt the team, he’s said he doesn’t want to DH, etc…

    Is he really that selfish and stubborn? Or is he just stupid and thinks he can still field? I don’t want to speculate because we can’t tell what another person thinks unless they tell us, but damn, he SEEMS like a spoiled, selfish, brat who refuses to admit he sucks in the field…

  26. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:04 am

    24- You beat me to it…I was ranting…

  27. jro on May 21st, 2008 10:05 am

    There’s a forest-for-the-trees metaphor that can be applied to the M’s front office rather easily.

  28. Jeff Nye on May 21st, 2008 10:06 am

    Just draw a circle around him.

    Even better!

  29. Max Power on May 21st, 2008 10:06 am

    Is he really that selfish and stubborn? Or is he just stupid and thinks he can still field?

    It doesn’t matter what he thinks so long as the baseball operations people think he’s a good defensive outfielder. They’re going to keep running him out there.

  30. abender20 on May 21st, 2008 10:07 am

    I play in my schools most competitive level of Intramural Softball league, splitting time between 3rd and center. As I was chasing down a fly ball in our game on Sunday, I actually had the thought go through my head, “There is no way Ibanez gets to this.”

  31. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 10:08 am

    Just draw a circle around him.

    Ah. Like the pitcher in softball.

    What was Baker’s response to this comment, if any…anyone know off-hand?

    I don’t think there was one. He posted on his game thread and made a smart-ass remark like, ‘Thought some of you might like that’.

  32. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:12 am

    I read the mailbag on Mariners.com the other day and someone asked why WFB wasn’t starting because he is one of the best players on the team…one of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time…

  33. DMZ on May 21st, 2008 10:14 am

    (sorry, abender — highlight the text, hit the “link button” paste the URL in there, click okay)

  34. Max Power on May 21st, 2008 10:17 am

    I don’t think there was one. He posted on his game thread and made a smart-ass remark like, ‘Thought some of you might like that’.

    It also went in the print version of the paper today.

  35. ralphie81 on May 21st, 2008 10:19 am

    Ichiro should borrow the equipment from the grounds crew and draw a little white line in left-center field.

    I thought that’s why they cut the grass differently.

  36. Mike Snow on May 21st, 2008 10:20 am

    I read the mailbag on Mariners.com the other day and someone asked why WFB wasn’t starting because he is one of the best players on the team

    Isn’t that question in about every other mailbag?

  37. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:22 am

    36- Could be…first time I saw it…sounded like a 10-year old wrote it…or our next GM…

  38. jzalman on May 21st, 2008 10:24 am

    Why don’t you follow up with the question “Are you serious? I’m sure you’re happy with Ichiro, but don’t you think Raul lacks range, makes errors, and would make a better DH”? Why are journalists questions so vague/open instead of suggestive? He’d have to publicly defend his poor decision if only asked.

  39. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 10:26 am

    I’ll stick by my analogy of Raul being one of the guys on a foosball table…man, McLaren’s arms must get dog tired after a while from having to move the poles back and forth!

  40. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:27 am

    38- We would love that, but Mac would just answer with, “Raul is just fine out there…he hustles to every ball and is very good at hitting the cut-off man…if we switched him to DH mid-season, that might mess with his rythym…he’s doing fine out there.”

  41. Doc Baseball on May 21st, 2008 10:29 am

    A study in contrasting quotes:

    “We’re 16-26 because we haven’t played or managed good enough. It has nothing to do with the clubhouse.” Detroit Tigers manager Jim Leyland, May 20, 2008.

    “…when we start to feel good about ourselves, that’s when we’ll take off.” Seattle Mariners manager John McLaren, May 11, 2008

  42. smb on May 21st, 2008 10:30 am

    This is a team that put Miguel Cairo in LF the other day. Miguel. Cairo. In LEFT FIELD. He looked terrified. Ichiro came way the hell over and saved him from having to make a play, honest to god he looked relived. I think he patted Ichiro on the back, even, and it looked to me like Ichiro responded with a, “You’re out here for moral support” semi-shrug. I am satisfied with 1/3 of our OF defense, because it successfully does the job of 2/3 of our OF defense.

  43. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 10:31 am

    A study in contrasting quotes:

    “We’re 16-26 because we haven’t played or managed good enough. It has nothing to do with the clubhouse.” Detroit Tigers manager Jim Leyland, May 20, 2008.

    “…when we start to feel good about ourselves, that’s when we’ll take off.” Seattle Mariners manager John McLaren, May 11, 2008

    Wow, that might be the M’s season in a one-liner right there. Nice find, Doc.

  44. JMHawkins on May 21st, 2008 10:31 am

    I’m surprised he hasn’t told McLaren “Please just let me go with eight fielders, and I’ll play center-left-center and Wlad will play right field. Have Ibanez back up first or something useful.”

    Okay Seattle Mariner fans, it’s time to vote your favorite Mariners into the 2008 All Star Team. Vote for Ichiro in Center Field, Adrian Beltre at Third, Jose Lopez at Second, and Rauuuuuuuul Ibanez for Rover…

  45. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 10:34 am

    it’s time to vote your favorite Mariners into the 2008 All Star Team

    Aw, gee, do we have to?

  46. don52656 on May 21st, 2008 10:34 am

    I asked this a few days ago, because the M’s defensive liabilities are obvious….other than moving Ibanez, what other moves could the M’s make to upgrade their defense? Where are the other defensive holes on this team? (I think it’s the right side of the infield, but I can’t tell if it’s Sexson, Lopez, or both…)

    Take a look at the M’s DEF in 2001 versus today. Then take a look at the rotation in 2001 versus today and make the case that the 2001 rotation is better…..I maintain that the defense made it look better, and the current defense is making the current rotation look worse.

    Imagine Felix with the 2001 defense behind him. Hell, Paul Abbott went 17-4 with the 2001 defense.

  47. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:36 am

    44- Hey Hawkins! Raul at Rover was my idea! (see #20)

    And he would get my vote…

  48. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 10:36 am

    “…when we start to feel good about ourselves, that’s when we’ll take off.” Seattle Mariners manager John McLaren, May 11, 2008

    Hmm…I guess that shows you how delusional Mac really is.

  49. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 10:45 am

    Where are the other defensive holes on this team? (I think it’s the right side of the infield, but I can’t tell if it’s Sexson, Lopez, or both…)

    I think Sexson is probably the biggest problem. Lopez isn’t scoring well on RZR this year and Betancourt is dead last in RZR in the American League @ SS. Hell, Beltre is 7/8 in the AL. It’s not pretty all the way around.

    Does +/- update during the season?

  50. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 10:48 am

    These days, I think Abbott would probably go about 4-17 with this sorry defense.

  51. Mike Honcho on May 21st, 2008 10:52 am

    49 – thanks for bringing up Betancourt. I’d love to get rid of him. He does nothing well. I’d rather have FA-to be Adam Everett.

  52. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 10:55 am

    I’m really torn on Betancourt. Sometimes he looks really good out there, but then almost right away makes a boneheaded play. Maybe he’s one of those guys that looks really good play defense so we assume he’s really good at it. The numbers that I’ve seen don’t really back it though.

  53. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 10:57 am

    52- Like Jeter?

  54. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 10:59 am

    See, I think Jeter looks like hell out there and the numbers agree. Pasta-diving Jeter and all.

    Yuni at least looks like he has range.

  55. crazyray7391 on May 21st, 2008 11:01 am

    You can’t break up the Double-Play Twins. How dare you!

  56. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 11:02 am

    Just trying to visualize a parallel universe where we have Carlos Guillen playing 1B, Asdrubal Cabrera playing SS, and Adam Jones in RF…

    Sigh.

  57. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 11:08 am

    I think Jeter is terrible too…but obviously diving into stands and what not gets you a great reputation and gold gloves…

  58. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 11:11 am

    56- I feel your frustration, but most teams can make similar “what ifs…”

  59. Joe on May 21st, 2008 11:13 am

    Jon Heyman, writing last September:

    After watching Mariners shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt on Monday, I have to assume Derek Jeter’s three-year Gold Glove reign is over. I assumed it, anyway, but now I’m pretty sure there’s at least one worthy successor to Jeter, who has slipped some this year. John McDonald of the Blue Jays would also be a deserving candidate.

    As I said at the time, this is your classic mindset: “I saw one game, he was awesome, therefore I’ve made up my mind.” Or perhaps he was just being really sly in his use of the term “worthy successor.”

  60. Colm on May 21st, 2008 11:14 am

    That’s a truly baffling quote from McLaren.
    I’m inclined to think he believes it, just as Hargrove believed that Mateo was a groundball pitcher.

    This sort of flat-out mistaken thinking ought to be what gets a manager fired – not poor perfomance from certain players, or bad breaks on the field, but blatant, identifiable misunderstandings about the game.

  61. Colm on May 21st, 2008 11:19 am

    Odd quote that, from Jon Heyman.
    Jeter = golden boy, highlight reel specialist, mediocre shortstop.
    Betancourt = shiny, good looking shortstop upon first site, now tarnished by habit of booting the ball around, and inability to turn above average number of batted balls into outs
    John McDonald = probably the best defensive shortstop in the AL (who can’t hit worth a DAMN).

  62. JollyGreen on May 21st, 2008 11:20 am

    What is Reed’s status with the team, he turns 27 in a few weeks, at what point will he be unable to be sent back to Tacoma (no more options) and somebody else can claim/sign him?

  63. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 11:22 am

    RZR has everyone on the M’s either right around or well below average. Yes, even Ichiro. I havn’t yet figured out how to rationalize this to myself. Perhaps having horrid corners hurts him?

    THT has their team stats up and the M’s rank dead last in the AL (by a lot) in +/- with -21.

    I’m not understanding how this is not a pressing concern for the team. Well, that’s a lie. They don’t even understand there’s a problem, but still. If you can’t get anyone to hit, you might as well find some players who can field.

  64. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 11:27 am

    John McDonald @ present = Rey Ordonez circa 1999, roughly.

  65. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 11:30 am

    John McDonald = probably the best defensive shortstop in the AL (who can’t hit worth a DAMN).

    Yeah, that’s too bad. I’d certainly go after Everett in the off season. He’s no great shakes hitting, but he’s not much worse than Yuni with the stick.

    I think that Betancourt is near last on the list of Mariner front office cocerns at this point though.

  66. msb on May 21st, 2008 11:35 am

    I’d missed that Jonah and Rob tossed around the five worst teams for ESPN yesterday, with Jonah pointing out the toll their terrible defense has taken.

  67. msb on May 21st, 2008 11:36 am

    oh, and howscome everyone else’s closed-door meetings seem to work?

    “Padres defeat Cards | After closed-door meeting”

  68. Joe on May 21st, 2008 11:49 am

    Just trying to visualize a parallel universe where we have Carlos Guillen playing 1B, Asdrubal Cabrera playing SS, and Adam Jones in RF…

    I realize we’re talking about defense (though in that case Guillen is only an improvement when you’re coming from Sexson), but you are aware that Betancourt is out-hitting Cabrera this year, yes? They’re even getting on base at about the same rate (Asdrubal walks more, but he strikes out more too). So it’s not like undoing that “trade” with the Indians and swapping one for the other would be an unalloyed upgrade. Cabrera was much better last year, true, but perhaps now that the pitchers have a book on him they can exploit his flaws at the plate until or unless he adjusts. At any rate, B-R shows Betancourt’s 2008 OPS+ as 77, which is bad (and well below his career average of 87) but Cabrera’s is an awful 41. That’s worse than Vidro, worse than Bloomquist. That’s Brad-Wilkerson-in-Toronto territory (yes, Wilkerson got worse).

    Adam Everett OPS+, in seasons with at least 200 PA:
    2003 80
    2004 80
    2005 70
    2006 64
    2007 56

    I can’t say I like that trend. He’s only had 80 PA so far this season, but he’s in the AL now and the trend continues: .183 \ .231 \ .296, OPS+ 47
    Don’t we have that guy on the M’s already? Oh, yeah, Bloomquist (44 PA): .171 \ .341 \ .171, OPS+ 49

    Yes, defense is a major problem. I don’t see swapping Yuni for Everett to be a solution.

  69. LewLegend on May 21st, 2008 11:51 am

    “What is Reed’s status with the team, he turns 27 in a few weeks, at what point will he be unable to be sent back to Tacoma (no more options) and somebody else can claim/sign him?”

    I’m guessing he’ll get 55 at-bats and if he doesn’t hit .400, he’ll be sent back down OR grizzled veteran Miguel Cairo will be ahead of him as a late inning defensive replacement for LF.

  70. JMHawkins on May 21st, 2008 12:07 pm

    44- Hey Hawkins! Raul at Rover was my idea! (see #20)

    Doh! I missed that. Well, he has two votes already – I bet he’s leading in the balloting!

  71. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 12:09 pm

    70- He or Manny…

  72. Ballfour on May 21st, 2008 12:09 pm

    31 Years ago, the Sonics started 5-17, fired their coach, drastically changed their starting lineup and made it to the Finals two years in a row. Come on Howard, have some ballz!!!! Of course 30 years from now we’ll be calling them the Topeka Crossdressers. But then we wouldn’t have to put up with the pathetic display both on and off the field, and in the local newspapers!

  73. don52656 on May 21st, 2008 12:10 pm

    I’ve been tracking the M’s DEF stats this year. Here is the team DEF for each player while they are in the game. I don’t know exactly how to judge significance, but I find the numbers interesting, and some of the results agree with what I subjectively think about the defensive skills of the players (i.e., Beltre is the best defender, Ichiro is the best outfielder). Balentien may be hurt by the fact that he’s played during the games that the M’s pitchers did the worst, or maybe he’s contributing to that? Also, Johjima is quite a bit below both Clement (.714) and Burke (.707). I wonder if that’s significant….

    Beltre .686 (1216-834) (balls in play-outs recorded)
    Lopez .684 (1200-821)
    Sexson .683 (997-681)
    TEAM AVG .682 (1259-859)
    Suzuki .682 (1251-853)
    Betancourt .682 (1208-824)
    Ibanez .681 (1228-836)
    Johjima .674 (953-642)
    Balentien .667 (526-351)

  74. scraps on May 21st, 2008 12:12 pm

    It’s nice that Baker got that quote from McLaren. But if giving interviews is supposed to be about accountability, shouldn’t Baker have something to say about this nonsense? You know, actually hold McLaren accountable for saying ludicrous things?

    If Bedard threw a lousy game and said he was pretty happy with it, do you think Baker would let that go?

    I know what people will say: he can’t rip McLaren (and tell the truth about Ibanez) because he needs access to the players. That’s fine. He just shouldn’t pretend, then, that interviews are about accountability, or about anything more than giving him something to write.

  75. msb on May 21st, 2008 12:12 pm

    Raul at Rover was my idea! (

    I read this, keep seeing Detroit all lined up along the 1st base line, with Pudge calling out: “Red Rover Red Rover, send Raul on over”

    and Raul runs into the line, and bounces back.

  76. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 12:14 pm

    …Only Raul probably wouldn’t be running!

  77. CaptainPoopy on May 21st, 2008 12:19 pm

    Why not shift Yuni to LF-line and Raul to LF-center and put Beltre in the SS hole… it would give us a better defense.

    /sarcasm.

  78. RoninX on May 21st, 2008 12:20 pm

    …Only Raul probably wouldn’t be running!

    Can you hustle and amble at the same time? What about mosey?

  79. CaptainPoopy on May 21st, 2008 12:20 pm

    Scott19

    He would be running but to the average eye, he’s walking.

  80. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 12:22 pm

    75- I don’t think anyone would be calling Raul over…

  81. joser on May 21st, 2008 12:27 pm

    I kinda feel bad for all this ripping of Raul, cause he can hit, and seems like a very nice guy when he gives interviews (Baker must LOVE him) but then I just get even more pissed because he HAS to know he hurts the team out there, he didn’t disclose his injury last year which hurt the team, he’s said he doesn’t want to DH, etc…

    Is he really that selfish and stubborn? Or is he just stupid and thinks he can still field? I don’t want to speculate because we can’t tell what another person thinks unless they tell us, but damn, he SEEMS like a spoiled, selfish, brat who refuses to admit he sucks in the field…

    Honestly, I don’t think that’s Raul’s problem. All these guys have always been the best athletes on their teams since Little League, and that’s the image of themselves they carry around in their heads. And it’s important to them, not just in the way our own self-image is important to all of us, but to their very existence as professional athletes in general and to their ability to play baseball in particular. Baseball is an especially humbling sport, and you pretty much have to have enormous self-confidence about your own abilities to survive hitting slumps and errors and getting sent down in the minors and all the other indignities the game imposes upon you. I don’t think Raul sits around analyzing his abilities in the field, and I doubt he watches the highlights on BBTN and thinks “wow, there are a lot of guys who can do things I can’t do.” He might admit to himself that he’s a step or two slower — everybody over 35 pretty much has to — but he probably tells himself he’s smarter and more experienced and that makes up for it. Unless they’re crippled by injuries, pretty much every player thinks he can still play, and he knows the culture of the game gives him credit for wanting to play and “being a gamer” and “playing through pain” — and that means hiding injuries and trying to do things your body is unwilling to allow. And because of all that, just about every athlete tries to stick around a little longer than he should. It’s a rare athlete who leaves the sport at the top of his game (and even then, they often can’t resist coming back at least once and embarrassing themselves).

    So no, I don’t really put this on Raul. Raul’s just doing his job. His entire self-image, and the entire culture he inhabits, causes him to want to run out and take his place in left field. He can’t be objective, and you don’t really want or expect him to be. But there are people whose entire job is supposed to be evaluating the players objectively and making the best decision for the team; and if that means sitting or trading a veteran, it’s their job to sit that veteran down and say whatever is necessary to make that happen. That’s not happening because those people aren’t doing their jobs.

  82. msb on May 21st, 2008 12:28 pm

    31 Years ago, the Sonics started 5-17, fired their coach, drastically changed their starting lineup and made it to the Finals two years in a row. Come on Howard, have some ballz!!!!

    28 years ago, the Mariners started 39-65, fired their manager and went 20-38.

    25 years ago, the Mariners started 26-47, fired their manager and went 34-55.

    24 years ago, the Mariners started 59-75, fired their manager and went 15-12.

    22 years ago, the Mariners started 9-19, fired their manager and went 55-75.

    22 years ago, the Mariners started 23-33, fired their manager and went 45-60.

  83. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 12:28 pm

    Visualizing Lee Majors’ slow-motion (though actually 60-MPH) “running” scenes in The Six Million Dollar Man:)

  84. msb on May 21st, 2008 12:30 pm

    Visualizing Lee Majors’ slow-motion (though actually 60-MPH) “running” scenes in The Six Million Dollar Man… :)

    complete with sound FX, natch.

  85. msb on May 21st, 2008 12:34 pm

    some old fart just called KJR to expound his theory (“remember last year? the Mariners brought in Jose Guillen to police the Hispanic players?”) that the Mariners defense is bad because the players are getting drunk the night before.

    I think the season has officially tipped over the edge.

  86. Evan on May 21st, 2008 12:35 pm

    Jeter = golden boy, highlight reel specialist, mediocre shortstop.

    Jeter wishes he was mediocre. Jeter’s abysmal out there.

    Jeter = John McDonald = probably the best defensive shortstop in the AL (who can’t hit worth a DAMN).

    He’s still worth playing every day if you have a pitch-to-contact staff with a high GB%. Like Toronto does.

    Seriously, look at Toronto. They hit about as well as we do, but they’re a .500 club because their defense is sick.

  87. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 12:36 pm

    Hey MSB, I wonder if we can lobby to get that show on RTN? They could easily fit that into the weekend time slots currently being wasted on such giants as Airwolf or Simon & Simon. :)

  88. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 12:38 pm

    85- I get drunk before, during, and after the games…only way to watch the Ms!

  89. jlc on May 21st, 2008 12:46 pm

    It’s nice that Baker got that quote from McLaren. But if giving interviews is supposed to be about accountability, shouldn’t Baker have something to say about this nonsense? You know, actually hold McLaren accountable for saying ludicrous things?

    Baker recognizes we don’t have stellar defense, but doesn’t think the defense is a problem. Specifically, he said earlier he’d never seen Raul’s defense cost a game. Which is, even if correct, a kind of bizarre way to judge defense.

  90. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 12:49 pm

    They could easily fit that into the weekend time slots currently being wasted on such giants as Airwolf

    Airwolf is on tv?!? What channel?

  91. Gawd129 on May 21st, 2008 12:50 pm

    [garbled link]

  92. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 12:53 pm

    Our Ms are so bad that we had running Star Wars references last week, Flash Gordon yesterday, and Airwolf today…

    Some quality shows to entertain when your home team isn’t entertaining…

  93. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 12:57 pm

    Airwolf is on tv?!? What channel?

    It’s on Sunday nights at 10p on a fairly-new network called the Retro Television Network (RTN) — which broadcasts in Seattle on Comcast Ch. 117 or KIRO-DT Ch. 7.2. Not sure if you’re in Seattle or not, though.

  94. jephdood on May 21st, 2008 12:57 pm

    Thank god I have a DVR and can “FF-watch” the daily Mariner crapfests in about 10 minutes.

  95. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 1:01 pm

    Thank god I have a DVR and can “FF-watch” the daily Mariner crapfests in about 10 minutes.

    These days, it only takes the other team about 10 minutes or so to score the 2-3 runs necessary to put the game completely beyond reach.

  96. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 1:01 pm

    94- Amen…I went camping this last weekend and watched the entire three game series against San Diego in about 4 hours on fast forward when I got home Sunday night…

  97. joser on May 21st, 2008 1:11 pm

    I can’t help but return to this quote from a couple of weeks ago:

    “We are a good fielding ballclub, but our defense has worked against us more than for us,” McLaren said. “It has happened too many times. We are close to next to last in fielding.”

    Holy cogitative dissonance, Batman! I assert we are a good fielding ballclub, yet by every measure we are almost the worst fielding ballclub. What do I do? Do I accept there might be objective results that force me rethink my underlying assumptions? Do I reject received wisdom because it conflicts with reality? Do I admit that maybe this team isn’t the 2001 version I have in my head, and perhaps consider upgrades at key positions might help?

    “At some point, this has to stop. We are too good of a fielding ballclub to keep making this many errors. Throws, missed ground balls, dropped tags. It isn’t one kind of error, but all kinds of errors. I am baffled because we have guys with great defensive capabilities, and they’re not doing it.

    “That’s what makes me so frustrated. It leaves you scratching your head a little bit, and that’s where I am right now. I don’t know what else to say.”

    No, I am baffled. I just scratch my head, and wait for it to stop.

  98. notanangrygradstudent on May 21st, 2008 1:25 pm

    I play in my schools most competitive level of Intramural Softball league, splitting time between 3rd and center. As I was chasing down a fly ball in our game on Sunday, I actually had the thought go through my head, “There is no way Ibanez gets to this.”

    You know this is hyperbolic, right? Raul is slow compared to most of the 1000 or so world-class athletes that compose the major leagues. He most likely isn’t slow compared to the universe of intramural softball players. It is easy to say that a player is slow or can’t hit or is lousy at baseball. But please let’s remember that the context is “amoung people who get paid millions of dollars per year to play baseball for a living.”

  99. don52656 on May 21st, 2008 1:32 pm

    Whether McLaren is aware that there are defensive efficiencies on his team or not, he can’t merely address the defensive issues without considering the overall impact. If he moves, say, Reed to LF and Ibanez to DH, for example, are the M’s better overall? Well, they certainly are defensively, but is adding Reed to the lineup and subtracting Vidro going to offset the defensive upgrade?

    Uh, no. It’s probably also an offensive upgrade, too. It must be because he wants to keep Vidro in because he is hits left-handed. Oh, that’s right, Reed’s a lefty too.

    I give. Wait’ll they trade for Griffey and put him in RF. That’ll be special. The pitchers will probably go on strike.

    But at least Griffey’s a lefty.

  100. Steve T on May 21st, 2008 1:44 pm

    This team will ALWAYS SUCK until they get a president, a GM, and a manager who can correctly answer “yes” to the question “do you understand this?” when presented with modern defensive metrics. ANY modern defensive metric. McLaren will never be that person; he will go to his grave thinking that “fielding percentage” means something and that you can tell a good defender by watching him play.

    If you held him at gunpoint and explained that it’s possible to COUNT the balls that a fielder might reasonably be expected to get to, and COUNT the balls that he actually does get to, he wouldn’t believe you, and he wouldn’t even understand what you were talking about.

    Bavasi’s the same way. It’s an organizational approach that rewards stupidity. People are ENCOURAGED to believe that a keen eye is all you need, and that statistics are valuable only when they confirm your prejudices. I’m sure they have reams of stats, of the “left hander, less than two outs, man on second” sort of micro-split, but they have NO IDEA what’s actually happening on the baseball field — and they fundamentally REJECT the idea that it’s possible to know. So they make these mistakes again and again. They will always make them.

    They think Sexson plays good defense. They think Raul plays good defense. They rate Betancourt at the very top of all shortstops. It’s like believing that drinking from lead cups is good for your health.

    I can’t wait for the last of these dinosaurs to sicken and die.

  101. galaxieboi on May 21st, 2008 1:46 pm

    But please let’s remember that the context is “amoung people who get paid millions of dollars per year to play baseball for a living.”

    I thought this was assumed. When I say, ‘WFB has ZERO power’, I’m not saying I can hit more longballs than WFB.

  102. terry on May 21st, 2008 1:48 pm

    Everybody knows left field is one of the easiest positions to play. Defense doesn’t matter there…… :-P

  103. notanangrygradstudent on May 21st, 2008 1:56 pm

    I thought this was assumed. When I say, ‘WFB has ZERO power’, I’m not saying I can hit more longballs than WFB.

    I thought it was, too, but that wasn’t the implication of the OP. (30)

  104. Tom on May 21st, 2008 2:01 pm

    The more I listen to Mac, the more I think he’s too Bill Doba like. And WSU Cougars on this blog know who I’m talking about.

    McLaren is too soft and too hands off with his team.

    As much as I hate to hire a manager after 2 years, especially considering what Bob Melvin has done since getting fired with us, it’s time for this team to make a change. And if we can’t do anything right now, it’ll be time before next season.

    I don’t know if a good manager has to be a “kicker and screamer” like Lou because pretty much a manager is usually only as good as his players are, but I do know you can’t be so hands off and soft with your players like McLaren is being here.

    I hope the Mariners figure that out sooner rather than later.

    Oh wait, they won’t because f—ing Chuck Armstrong is preaching PATIENCE since 7 years of patience and losing hasn’t been enough. Never mind.

    Paging Mark Cuban and Steve Balmer, one of you please help our cause!!!!!

  105. Tom on May 21st, 2008 2:02 pm

    fire a manager*

  106. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 2:15 pm

    100/104: Yeah, I hear you guys. Their Stalinistic approach to team management gets totally depressing after a while.

  107. jspektor on May 21st, 2008 2:16 pm

    [off-topic]

  108. scott19 on May 21st, 2008 2:21 pm

    [off-topic]

  109. Tom on May 21st, 2008 2:22 pm

    #106: What the hell is the point of watching this team when all they care about is making a profit? Seriously. I may as well just watch the Red Sox if they’re main focus is winning a title.

  110. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 2:22 pm

    [off-topic]

  111. jspektor on May 21st, 2008 2:22 pm

    [off-topic]

  112. jspektor on May 21st, 2008 2:23 pm

    [off-topic]

  113. gwangung on May 21st, 2008 2:30 pm

    No, this management wants to win.

    But their desire isn’t necessarily as great as other teams’, with respect to risk-taking. They are risk averse and concensus driven.

    And they simply are far behind the curve of other teams in understanding what makes a team win. See their comments on defense.

  114. Steve T on May 21st, 2008 2:31 pm

    Being “soft with your players” has nothing to do with McLaren’s problem. He doesn’t need to get tougher; he needs to get smarter. Tough guy stuff is pointless.

    And it’s not primarily McLaren’s problem. Yes, he could tell Raul to DH, but when you look at the collection of boobs we have, it’s hard to see how you could manage much better. What are you supposed to do with Cairo, exactly?

  115. JI on May 21st, 2008 2:33 pm

    I’m glad I root for a team that is happy with this.

  116. Steve T on May 21st, 2008 2:33 pm

    “Desire to win” is meaningless too. Everybody desires to win. Good teams don’t “want it more”; they have better players.

    “Desire to win” and “want it more” are just talk radio cliches.

  117. bakomariner on May 21st, 2008 2:34 pm

    Steve has it right on…I don’t think that Mac is a very good manager, but I doubt that the best of the best could win with the players that Bavasi and co. has left him to manage…we’d have a few more wins with a competant manager, but we’d still be in last place…

  118. BillyJive on May 21st, 2008 2:35 pm

    I agree with 100…

    The problem starts at the top. They are the ones that let the GM make these brutal trades and give away prospects and good players for nothing. They are the ones that let the Manager make these horrible lineups and strange substitutions…
    As long as the $$$ keeps coming in…
    I still haven’t decided whether to make the long journey to Seattle this summer like I have done every summer since ’95, but right now I am leaning towards a no…

  119. Swungonandbelted on May 21st, 2008 2:37 pm

    As much as I hate to hire a manager after 2 years, especially considering what Bob Melvin has done since getting fired with us, it’s time for this team to make a change. And if we can’t do anything right now, it’ll be time before next season.

    I think (and I may be alone in this) that Mac should get a bit more time, he’s had half of a season where he took over in an unusual circumstance, and a quarter of another season. At some point firing managers is a bit counterproductive (BoMel after 2 years, and that’s looking like a brilliant move right now), Grover quits after a couple, Mac comes in, has essentially less than a year with a hellaciously bad bunch of players, and now there’s talk about replacing him. at some point any other manager who is potentially qualified to come to Seattle is going to have serious concerns because the M’s are developing a trend of having zero patience, it’s either win now (with one arm twisted in a half-nelson) or get the axe. Mac may figure it out, and could end up becoming a fairly decent manager. I don’t think that it’s fair to pin everything that is wrong with the M’s on his back.

    I have a *MUCH* bigger problem with Bavasi potentially hiring his FOURTH manager in 6 years….

  120. BillyJive on May 21st, 2008 2:39 pm

    Yeah as much as I question a lot of what McLaren does with this team…firing him will not help this team..changes have to start at the top…

  121. JE on May 21st, 2008 2:40 pm

    I agree that you can only do what your players are able to a point, but “desire to win” creates effort which I believe we all feel could be a little bit better throughout the whole organization.

    The bottom line is always that the boss is suppose to be responsible for everything the company does. So start at the top and let it trickle down. They are all responsible in one way or another.

  122. Tom on May 21st, 2008 2:44 pm

    #114: If McLaren had any guts, he would’ve ripped this team for its incompetent defense and he would’ve taken Ibanez out of the field the day after he spiked the ball in New York. Of course a manger needs to be tough!

    At least he needs to be tough enough to tell his team when it screws up and ask for accountability like Jim Leyland does.

    As far as I’m concerned, there isn’t any player in this clubhouse who’ll keep the players accountable whenever they screw up like Jay Buhner did (we may have had that last year with Jose Guillen, but now he’s gone of course.) and there isn’t a manager here who’ll also keep his players in line like Lou Piniella.

    You can say what you want about how Lou is “old school” and isn’t that good with evaluating statistics and projections or whatever. Fine, I can live with that.

    But you know what? The man gets results, and when he doesn’t get results, he doesn’t just sit there like McLaren does.

    This is maybe the least passionate team I’ve ever seen since rooting for the Mariners. This team isn’t willing to go the extra mile like the great teams Piniella had, and it makes me frickin’ sick.

  123. gwangung on May 21st, 2008 2:47 pm

    I agree that you can only do what your players are able to a point, but “desire to win” creates effort which I believe we all feel could be a little bit better throughout the whole organization.

    Actually, I think knowing who is and who isn’t a good player, sprinkled all throughout the organization, would be a WHOLE LOT better than “desire to win.”

  124. gwangung on May 21st, 2008 2:48 pm

    You can say what you want about how Lou is “old school” and isn’t that good with evaluating statistics and projections or whatever. Fine, I can live with that.

    But you know what? The man gets results

    Really? In Tampa Bay????

    Sorry. You’re missing the point again and, just like the Mariner management, looking at the wrong thing.

  125. Tom on May 21st, 2008 2:49 pm

    #123: Totally agree with you, each and every moron in this organization needs to be fired tomorrow. I can only imagine what this organization would be like if we had half the brains in our front office that Cleveland or Tampa has.

  126. don52656 on May 21st, 2008 2:51 pm

    I wouldn’t replace McLaren now. Since the GM hires the manager, I’d replace Bavasi first, then let the new GM decide who the manager should be.

    I just hope that Bavasi is replaced before he can make any more trades.

  127. Max Power on May 21st, 2008 2:52 pm

    Jeez, read the latest Baker post on the catching situation. What a cluster. They signed Joh to an extension, blocking their #1 prospect, now they have to use their backup for 2/5 of the rotation because they can’t stand Joh.

  128. Tom on May 21st, 2008 2:52 pm

    #124: Oh ya, I’d like to see anybody win in Tampa Bay under the circumstances Lou was under back then. Hell, Piniella IMPROVED Tampa Bay’s win total while he was there until his last year there in ’04.

    I mean, my god, Lou since he’s been manager has taken 4 different franchises to winning records, 3 different franchises to the playoffs, and 1 franchise has won the World Series under Lou Piniella.

    Seriously, just be quiet.

  129. Steve T on May 21st, 2008 2:55 pm

    Passion is a stupid thing to hope for. You sound like you’re reading from Bavasi’s personal notebook, actually; the belief that we might somehow win if we just tried harder is exactly what’s wrong with this team. Passion, desire, effort, accountability, going the extra mile — these mean nothing.

    Ability matters. Only ability.

  130. Steve T on May 21st, 2008 2:58 pm

    Seriously, just be quiet.

    Uh, who are you again? Gwangung is well-known around here, and he’s also 100% correct.

  131. John D. on May 21st, 2008 2:58 pm

    21 May Quote of the day
    By: DMZ and filed under Mariners

    ”We’re happy with our defense in the outfield,”

    When I read that in the paper this morning, I couldn’t believe my eyes. But there it was again, in the other paper.
    What’s with these guys?
    Last year we had Hargrove mistaking Mateo for a groundball pitcher, and (among other things) considering taking the “reserve” label off Bloomquist.
    And now this.
    All prospective managers, when applying for a job, should be required to take an I.Q. test. Anyone scoring below 70, can’t be a manager.

  132. north on May 21st, 2008 3:00 pm

    #122 – Give us a break.

    This team sucks because players 3 through 9 in the batting order are bad to mediocre in terms of skill. (Assuming the Ichiro-Beltre 1-2.)

  133. scraps on May 21st, 2008 3:02 pm

    Tom, are you synesthesiac? You seem to have mistaken this place for KJR.

  134. Tom on May 21st, 2008 3:03 pm

    #129: Ability is #1 yes, I totally agree with that. But I’m just telling you, if you want players to get results, they need a push and a shove every now and then.

    A manager is only going to be as good as his players, and some teams are either so good or so bad that they can’t really be effected by what kind of manager they have (i.e. Lou Piniella in Tampa).

    But the fact is, if you are one of the 20 teams (give or take a couple) that aren’t quite so good or so bad, it’s important to have a manager that has not only common sense and decent statistical know-how, but also to have a manager that’s going to push these players who make millions of dollars every year in guaranteed money when otherwise they are going to have no motivation. And that’s all I’m trying to say here.

    Obviously ability should be the primary judge who gets to play and not play, and knowing stats and having common sense is incredilby important. But a manger must also know when to kick his team in the pants.

    And when John McLaren says that he’s “satisfied” with a crappy outfield defense, then that tells you everything you need to know about what his standards are and how much courage he has to speak his mind and not speak out against his veteran players.

    Sure he had that one rant in New York, but by that time it’s obvious it was far too late to fix anything.

  135. Jeff Nye on May 21st, 2008 3:05 pm

    Tone check, guys, or posts start going bye bye.

  136. Tom on May 21st, 2008 3:07 pm

    #135: Sorry. I guess I was just letting off a little steam. This is just tough to watch right now, that’s all.

  137. jlc on May 21st, 2008 3:08 pm

    Jeez, read the latest Baker post on the catching situation. What a cluster. They signed Joh to an extension, blocking their #1 prospect, now they have to use their backup for 2/5 of the rotation because they can’t stand Joh.

    I hate this team. I don’t see it doing any good to fire the manager, because of the GM. Don’t see him being replaced with someone who has a substantially different philosophy (whatever it is), based on the rest of the FO. Don’t see a reason to bring in better players, because they’ll either ride the pine or get their two weeks to prove themselves or ship out.

    Honestly, young guys, old guys, it won’t make any difference this year. We’re just fucked.

  138. scraps on May 21st, 2008 3:14 pm

    otherwise they are going to have no motivation

    If you think these guys have no motivation because they’re making lots of money, you really don’t understand how the vast majority of professional athletes work. I’m sorry to put it that flatly. Athletes at this level are driven to win, with very few exceptions. They don’t need a fire. They need intelligent leadership, whether it’s fiery or not. But mostly, in our case, they simply need more talent than they have, and no matter how much steam you let off, you aren’t going to make them better than they are.

  139. VaughnStreet on May 21st, 2008 3:19 pm

    I wouldn’t bother me so much if McLaren was just honest with us and admitted that his defense sucks. He is accountable to the fans for the sorry state of the defense, and they are entitled to demand a solution.

    His refusal to be accountable exposes him as an idiot, a liar, or both.

    Shame on you, Mariners.

  140. jlc on May 21st, 2008 3:21 pm

    The thing with the defense is that Blowers et al also seem shocked that it’s not very good. I honestly think McLaren thought it would be a strength this year and that the boys are just going through a little rough spot.

  141. Swungonandbelted on May 21st, 2008 3:22 pm

    His refusal to be accountable exposes him as an idiot, a liar, or both.

    Or the organizational PR machine has him muzzled so he can’t slam the team in the media…

  142. msb on May 21st, 2008 3:25 pm

    The thing with the defense is that Blowers et al also seem shocked that it’s not very good.

    and he isn’t the only one– various national writers and baseball men have also expressed their surprise …

  143. CrazySuggestionGuy on May 21st, 2008 3:25 pm

    OK, I have a question, and I’m not trying to be overly positive or drink the McLaren Kool-Aid or be sarcastic, I’m really and truly just having trouble thinking of the answer to the question:

    “Is there any facet of the game that the Mariners are actually good at?”

    Right now, I can’t name one… OK, maybe stolen bases, besides that…

  144. HamNasty on May 21st, 2008 3:29 pm

    I want John McLaren to tell us what the problem is. If it is not defense is it pitching? offense? I can’t remember him calling any facet of the game out with anything besides rah rah crap. This team sucks all all facets at least call something out McLaren or you are just losing with a good team(Not True).

  145. jlc on May 21st, 2008 3:32 pm

    Washburn better pitch a hell of a game with his favorite catcher out there. I’m a big Burke supporter for backup catcher, but the idea of him being the better starting catcher is silly.

  146. scraps on May 21st, 2008 3:32 pm

    now they have to use their backup for 2/5 of the rotation because they can’t stand Joh.

    But this kind of thing makes me understand where Tom is coming from as far as needing someone who will take charge. Good organizations don’t let the players push them around; they do what they think is best. The Mariners don’t “have” to do what the pitchers tell them.

  147. nwtrev on May 21st, 2008 3:47 pm

    “”We’re happy with our defense in the outfield,” he replied.
    – McLaren, to Baker

    I posted this in the game thread yesterday but I don’t think anyone was left to read it. I think poor Geoff is starting to lose his mind. And really who can blame him covering this team? Did anyone catch this one?

    Got a losing streak that needs fixing? A little problem getting hitters out? Well, hey just call 1-800-Bavasi and he’ll send you a lineup guaranteed to fix your hurts.

  148. north on May 21st, 2008 4:42 pm

    Where is Granderson today? Resting? Injured?

  149. north on May 21st, 2008 4:45 pm

    Interesting phenomenon. Tenth man gets a spot start and gets a big hit. Didn’t think bench players were needed that could do that.

  150. Steve T on May 21st, 2008 5:49 pm

    @136 — understood. I think we’re all a little frustrated. I’d move to Tampa Bay, so I could follow a promising young team, if I could stand Florida.

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