Bavasi Agrees: This Team Sucks

Dave · June 4, 2008 at 10:11 pm · Filed Under Mariners 

Andriessen covers the blow-up and gets this quote from Bavasi:

“They may not know how to play the game well, they may not know how to hold each other accountable, they may not know how to fight hard,” he said. “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”

Talking about the plans for the rest of the season:

Bavasi said he thinks that his current personnel, theoretically, could put this team back in contention, but “I’m not sure we’re going to give them a chance to.”

It only took until June 4th, but it appears that management is finally in agreement that this season is over, that this team is lousy, and this organization needs a good purging.

Comments

90 Responses to “Bavasi Agrees: This Team Sucks”

  1. abender20 on June 4th, 2008 10:13 pm

    The difference between good management and bad management is clear here.

    Good management has the foresight to avoid building a bad team, and in bad situations knows how to cut bait early.

    Bad management does this.

  2. dnc on June 4th, 2008 10:19 pm

    So there’s a difference between fighting hard and playing hard?

    Is it just me, or is this the height of non sensical?

  3. Gerald on June 4th, 2008 10:19 pm

    Bavasi overseeing the purge doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.

    I suppose this is the baby steps approach to being honest about the state of the organization.

  4. Wallingfjord on June 4th, 2008 10:21 pm

    So… has this been a good day or a bad day?

  5. katal on June 4th, 2008 10:22 pm

    So… post soon about how exactly the M’s should blow up the team?

  6. bratman on June 4th, 2008 10:22 pm

    “They may not know how to play the game well, they may not know how to hold each other accountable, they may not know how to fight hard,” he said. “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”

    Not only is this bad management, hes completely throwing everyone under the bus but himself.

    Basically the first part of that statement is essentially ‘no offense,’ which is always followed by an insult.

    ‘No Offense, but you are getting fat’ is exactly the same thing our team ‘leader’ has done. They are his guys, his analysis choices and he should pay with the rest.

  7. jephdood on June 4th, 2008 10:23 pm

    “I’m not sure we’re going to give them a chance to.”

    I WISH the quote was:

    “I’m not sure THEY’RE going to give US a chance to.”

  8. abender20 on June 4th, 2008 10:23 pm

    Bavasi will

    1.) Sign McLaren through 2015.
    2.) Cut Beltre because he refuses to play with offensive grit
    3.) Move Ichiro to third to fill the hole
    4.) Ibanez to center. You think he’s gritty now, watch him try to cover 50% more ground
    5.) Jose Vidro to Left. His offense is not good enough for the DH at all. So lets move him to a different position
    6.) Beg Atlanta for Givesies Backsies on Raffy Soriano and Greg Norton

  9. CC03 on June 4th, 2008 10:25 pm

    At least this team already has some of the pieces teams look for when the yare rebuilding:

    Future ace in Felix. Perhaps even a #2 and #3 in Aumont/Morrow
    Future MOTO bat in Clement
    Bullpen is always there.
    Ichiro is ageless.

    Still a lot of moves to be made, but a lot of pieces are already in place for the future. Then there’s next years draft which should at least be a top 5 pick. They could even get someone who could end up being an impact next year.

  10. poisonthewell on June 4th, 2008 10:26 pm

    We aren’t contenders and that’s pretty dissapointing, but damn if this total meltdown isn’t entertaining.

  11. abender20 on June 4th, 2008 10:27 pm

    In all seriousness though… here’s my list of don’ts as the M’s try to rebuild.

    Don’t trade for Griffey, unless the Red’s are willing to give him up just to get rid of his contract ( unless hes got more than a year left)

    Don’t let Vidro or Cairo continue to play

    Don’t let Jeff Clement languish in AAA

    Trade Ibanez if he brings back something of value, like a good prospect. But do not pull a Carlos Guillen / Cha Seung Baek and dump him.

    Don’t try to find a temporary fix like giving up Asdrubal Cabrera for half a season of Baseball Tonight’s own Eduardo Perez. The dam is broken, a band-aid won’t do

  12. CC03 on June 4th, 2008 10:27 pm

    Errrr, terrible on my part

    Last sentence in my post above was supposed to say something along the lines of:

    They could even get someone tomorrow who could end up being an impact player in a couple years.

  13. Mousse on June 4th, 2008 10:28 pm

    Unfortunately, the people who might do the purging are the ones most worthy of being purged.

  14. abender20 on June 4th, 2008 10:29 pm

    Dead fish stinks from the head.

  15. Go Felix on June 4th, 2008 10:29 pm

    Ladies and Gentlemen:

    The 2008 Seattle Mariners would like to thank you for your continued support through this time of change. Thank you so much for your patience and understanding. We hope to bring you a fantastic team in 2009 that will contend for an American League West Title. In the mean time, please enjoy your extra $5 per ticket for “premium” games and also remember to have fun with your bobble head. Please enjoy this free ticket for Rally Fries and a promotional picture of Richie Sexson “high-fiving” Scott Spiezio.

    Your pal,

    Bill Bavasi

    p.s.

    I made a bobble head of myself that plugs into the wall so whenever I have an idea it just bobs its head with approval everytime. LOL!

  16. abender20 on June 4th, 2008 10:31 pm

    How about cutting Sexson and Cairo and Vidro loose, then building a little more cheaply next year and dropping ticket prices?

  17. jlc on June 4th, 2008 10:35 pm

    “They may not know how to play the game well, they may not know how to hold each other accountable, they may not know how to fight hard,” he said. “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”

    There are so many ridiculous things that have been said by Mariners’ management this year, but this may be my favorite, if you combine it with the statement earlier about the manager not being the problem.

    If they don’t know how to play the game well, isn’t that a management problem? And if they don’t know how to play the game, how can they play hard, except to play more badly?

    Put me on the list of people who’re waiting with equal measures of glee and terror for the next bizarro thing to happen.

  18. edgar for mayor on June 4th, 2008 10:38 pm

    >> “They may not know how to play the game well, they may not know how to hold each other accountable, they may not know how to fight hard,” he said. “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”>>

    Thats funny ^^
    Not only is Bavasi throwing the team he put together under the bus, he is even admitting it. Good Stuff.

    As for the rebuild, I don’t think you can even let Bavasi touch at job. Fire the man as soon as the draft picks of 2008 are safely signed. Bavasi’s trade record is just too disgusting to let him take on a rebuilding project.

  19. jro on June 4th, 2008 10:40 pm

    With all the public posturing about how the team was sticking together and not pointing fingers, it’s now very much a front-office vs. players type of environment. This is quite a big blow-up: Armstrong, Mclaren, and (in his own way) Bavasi.

    Across the board, nobody is helping anyone here. The team lacks coaching/managerial leadership, the players lack that peer leader (I’ve heard some say that left with Jose Guillen), the manager lacks a front-office to give him tools to work with, the younger guys in Tacoma lack support to transition to the big leagues, and the entire organization lacks accountability.

    The organization is bordering on a case study of how to NOT run a professional sports franchise.

  20. jimforjim on June 4th, 2008 10:41 pm

    I liked Bavasi more before he started throwing people under the bus. These are the times when character shows itself, and BB missed the mark here. Of course, there was already ample reason to fire him…

  21. jlc on June 4th, 2008 10:43 pm

    Special thanks to Dave and DMZ tonight for the four posts put up since the game, especially the titles, which nicely encapsulate the whole damn thing.

  22. jro on June 4th, 2008 10:46 pm

    “They may not know how to play the game well, they may not know how to hold each other accountable, they may not know how to fight hard,” he said. “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”

    This reminds me of one of my favorite motivational posters at Despair.com:

    http://www.despair.com/incompetence.html

    To wit:
    Incompetence – when you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there’s no end to what you can’t do.

    A comic tragedy on the order of Shakespeare.

  23. Sachemo on June 4th, 2008 10:48 pm

    “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”>>

    Yeah, it’s cool that he admits that they are trying and playing hard. I mean, if they’re playing to the best of their abilities, you can only blame the person that put them together…now, if only we knew who that was…

  24. RustyJohn on June 4th, 2008 10:53 pm

    What is amazing is how deluded the front office was to believe that this team could compete. Did it ever occur to them that they were missing out on two fundamental areas of baseball- hitting and fielding- when building this team?

    The good news is there’s about $30 million locked up in three #5 starters though and a farm system that sucks. Plus, the only player on the team with any potential trade value (Ibanez) won’t get much of anything in return.

    Way to put together a winner Billy- now, cover up for you mistakes by making the players sit in front of their lockers like children. Bavasi is so incapable of taking blame for himself, assessing the reality of a situation yet adept at throwing other the people under the bus. He really should run for elected office- is it too late to file for governor?

  25. Phightin Phils on June 4th, 2008 10:54 pm

    I can’t have hope for the future after this Bavasi quote:
    “It’s a completely demoralizing position we’re in right now, based on the completely legitimate (preseason) expectations…”

    The meltdown might be entertaining for us, but unfortunately not educational for some.

  26. forte40 on June 4th, 2008 11:01 pm

    Well, at least the pitching staff is getting rid of Washburn after this year, oh, wait.

  27. Gihyou on June 4th, 2008 11:01 pm

    “They may not know how to play the game well, they may not know how to hold each other accountable, they may not know how to fight hard,” he said. “But they are playing hard. They are trying hard.”em>

    Shut up Bill Bavasi. Just…shut up.

    Playing the game well: It is your job to find players who can do this, and you have ample evidence available to you before signing someone that allows you to determine if a player is good or not. You picking up lousy players and then lashing them when they suck is pretty lousy.

    Holding other players accountable: If only someone would would just get in Miguel Cairo’s face and give him a good reaming, he would suddenly become a good player. Of course!

    Knowing how to fight hard: I am confused, because baseball appears to involve very little fighting. Should they be fighting each other (part of holding each other accountable)? Should they pick fights with the other team? Would that accomplish anything beyond getting Jarrod Washburn onto the DL?

    Playing and trying hard: Who is trying harder, the Mariners’ players at playing baseball, or Bavasi at deflecting blame onto his charges?

  28. Gihyou on June 4th, 2008 11:03 pm

    I deeply apologize for not closing my italics tag correctly. I am suitably ashamed.

  29. Jim_H on June 4th, 2008 11:07 pm

    Thinking about next year, I hope that Clement is getting some time at 1B and DH in Tacoma. He seems like a logical replacement for Sexon at 1st. Heck, at this point, they might as well bring him back up and let him learn to play first and DH at the big league level. Whats the worst thing that could happen? He struggles at the plate and plays poor defense?

    /shrug

  30. Jim_H on June 4th, 2008 11:09 pm

    Nice,

    Insult your community… very nice…

    The little box at the bottom of the screen said the post was free of spelling errors. Apparently it wasn’t eh?

  31. OppositeField on June 4th, 2008 11:10 pm

    The little box at the bottom of the screen said the post was free of spelling errors. Apparently it wasn’t eh?

    Laughing VERY hard at this

  32. Phightin Phils on June 4th, 2008 11:11 pm

    Sorry, one more comment on the McLaren tirade…

    Towards the end, he said that it needs to be a team effort. I wonder if he didn’t mean the players, but the team of him, Bavasi, and above?

  33. Jeff Nye on June 4th, 2008 11:13 pm

    Insult your community… very nice…

    Please tell me this is a joke.

  34. joser on June 4th, 2008 11:14 pm

    [this is a dupe of your comment yesterday and yes, we do pay that much attention]

  35. OppositeField on June 4th, 2008 11:14 pm

    I’m hoping it’s not a joke, because it’s the funniest post in months if this dude is serious.

  36. mikelb420 on June 4th, 2008 11:16 pm

    If anyone from the front office is going to be at the event on Saturday, I can totally see this turning into a Jerry Springer style throwdown:) Seriously though, looking forward to Saturday.

  37. Steve Nelson on June 4th, 2008 11:16 pm

    I’m sure glad Barry Bonds isn’t around, poisoning the atmosphere in the clubhouse.

  38. smb on June 4th, 2008 11:16 pm

    Good call, jlc. Tonight was Epic…the dunderheadedly obvious truths have finally, at long last, come from the mouths of those who have maintained a publicly blissful denial while we all suffered through Washburn start after Washburn start together. “Understand this, things are now in motion that cannot be undone.” Change is now imminent, the quality thereof to be scrutinized closely by the most efficient and excellent, unpaid and unaffiliated underground promotions team a professional baseball club could possibly hope for, ussmariner.com.

    Since this blog speaks the truth about the team we are all so passionate about, it has a pretty loyal following. I would like to believe that the few dollars I’ve kicked down in support of ussm are in some way, in some sense, going to contribute to a change in the way things are done with the team, at least over time. They have to realize at some point that the web traffic and national respect and recognition this blog has gotten is resonating with the most passionate, loyal, money-spending fans they have, don’t they? While it would be politically incorrect and against the good intentions of Derek and Dave to try to capitalize on things coming to a negative head tonight in the traditional media, I’d still like to point out from my position as a severe partisan that now is a kickass time to donate to this site.

    I think our voices should be louder than ever as seriously impactful changes (hopefully) begin to be made. We pretty much bought the stadium. We pretty much pay the players. We pretty much fill the seats (often when no sane person would say it was really worth the cost). We’re not going to pick a new GM or get them to draft a certain player, but we can make ourselves heard. This is clearly the best channel that passionate M’s fans have.

  39. mikelb420 on June 4th, 2008 11:21 pm

    #37 LOL

    #36 Sorry, I meant next Saturday.

  40. JMHawkins on June 4th, 2008 11:26 pm

    I’m hoping it’s not a joke, because it’s the funniest post in months if this dude is serious.

    Derek should sit in front of his locker and take full responsibility for a confusing button.

  41. jro on June 4th, 2008 11:28 pm

    With a $118M payroll, that’s $2M/win.

    On the flipside, our costs per loss are going day every day.

  42. Brian Rust on June 4th, 2008 11:28 pm

    OK, I realize this is a digression but I cannot let pass another usage of the phrase “cut bait” both severed from, and reversed in meaning with, its proper pair.

    The phrase “fish or cut bait” is really a contraction of “Are you gonna fish, or just cut bait?” In other words, are you gonna do something (fish), or just act like you’re gonna do something, but you don’t actually do it (cut bait). An somewhat analagous phrase is “shit or get off the pot.” In this case, cutting bait is a preparatory or contributory action to the actual intended activity, and is unproductive unless you actually engage in the ultimate activity. To use “cut bait” as a synonym for “getting it done” makes no sense given the derivation of the phrase. Some other metaphor should be employed.

    An alternate meaning (as I learned it from context provided by my grandpa) refers to the inferior status of the bait boy. The men fish while the boys cut bait. Although in this case, I rather prefer the more colorful “You gonna run with the big dogs, or stay up on the porch with the pups?”

    Yes, the M’s must choose whether to fish or cut bait. But they’ve been cutting bait for two months now and if it weren’t for unseasonably cold weather in Seattle it’d really be stinking up the field. It’s time to fish.

  43. PADJ on June 4th, 2008 11:30 pm

    This whole thing is sad, but hugely entertaining. I listened to the PG-bleeped version of Mac’s tirade on the radio postgame today. There was a lot of frustration, but it seemed like it was frustration misdirected. To me there was a note of “we’re tired of not being as good as we had told ourselves that we were.” Sometimes the mark of someone who is in a leadership role but isn’t a strong leader themselves is they start floundering around looking for someone else to lead.

    Immediately following Mac’s bit was an interview blurb with clubhouse leader veteran Raul. When asked his thoughts on all that has happened to the team and what it will take to turn it around, all he could do was sigh a lot and spout cliches. Thanks, man.

    Now Bavasi comes out with this BS about his players may not know how to play well etc, but they’re trying hard. Whose job is it to build a team that knows how to play well???

    And now he’s publically talking about that he’s not sure that the players will be given the chance to get back in contention. That’ll help, Bill.

    This thing is circling the drain. Funny though it may be at times, there’s more than enough blame to go around from the players all the way up…but I think all we’re likely to see in the short term is Mac getting it in the neck and a few player moves.

  44. msb on June 4th, 2008 11:33 pm

    now, cover up for you mistakes by making the players sit in front of their lockers like children

    after reading Andriessen and others, it looks as though rather than an attempt to make them sit there and think about their sins, Bavasi was instead attempting to counter the way the majority of the team has been disappearing after games rather than talk to the media, and actually had them be at their locker and available. well, except Sexson, who continued his disappearing act.

  45. Jeff Nye on June 4th, 2008 11:35 pm

    Honestly, I have nothing left but laughter for this trainwreck of a season.

    I suggest you all join me.

  46. RallyFried on June 4th, 2008 11:36 pm

    Vidro said:

    “But this ballclub, we’re not jogging out there. This team is playing hard. At the end of the day, I go home happy that I gave everything I’ve got. The guys are the same way, too. We play hard.”

    McLaren said:

    <blockquote>”They’re not happy, and they shouldn’t be,” McLaren said. “I’m sure our ownership and our fans, they’re not happy. Anybody that’s happy in this clubhouse, there’s something wrong.”</blockquote>

    So there’s something wrong?

  47. PADJ on June 4th, 2008 11:40 pm

    44 – so if Sexson gets a truant slip and DFA’d does that mean Cairo gets more time at first base? :-(

    45 – agree. As much as it makes me feel small to admit, there is something darkly pleasant to see the house of cards being to come down. Sometimes all you can do is laugh at it and yell “DUH” at the TV or radio.

  48. jro on June 4th, 2008 11:40 pm

    RallyFried said:

    So there’s something wrong?

    Yep, and somehow he’s the DH and hits cleanup.

    But there may be other issues as well…

  49. bratman on June 4th, 2008 11:41 pm

    who would have thought this much drama heading into the draft tomorrow? woah! this is almost as dramatic as the Presidential election.

  50. ClubhouseLeader on June 4th, 2008 11:42 pm

    Honestly, i’m glad. This is a good day. Management has figured out the team sucks. Management still sucks because of how they are approaching it, but hey, one problem at a time.

    I am mixed on bavasi’s approach with forcing the players to hang out by their lockers. It is basically using the press as your method of accountability, which is 1) good because you need accountability to come from somewhere, but also 2) bad because it should be coming from management.

  51. PADJ on June 4th, 2008 11:44 pm

    I would feel better about this whole “sit at your locker” thing if the players did it because THEY came up with the idea. That would show that they cared enough to face the media and take some heat. As it is I’m pretty sure it comes across as being jammed down their throats by the FO.

  52. msb on June 4th, 2008 11:54 pm

    As it is I’m pretty sure it comes across as being jammed down their throats by the FO.

    well, it was.

    I wonder whether the chewing out given the Vastly Expensive and Experienced Coaching Staff will have any effect– when it appears that infielders are being noodged to take extra infield practice by members of the media, and not by their infield coach or their manager, perhaps something should be done.

  53. sealclubber253 on June 5th, 2008 12:05 am

    You know what bothered me more than anything while reading this article? The recuring line “pick it up.” That is a generic term that means nothing but try harder, right? Well, you just said, Bill, that they are trying hard. So, maybe some constructive comments would be more effective? Like, “Sexson, you need to open your stance” or “Yuni, you need to trow the ball over your body and not side armed to first base?” Those are the types of things coaches and managers tell players to make them better, not “Pick it up.”

    Disclaimer: Don’t put too much thought into my replacement comments, they are there only as examples.

  54. PADJ on June 5th, 2008 12:09 am

    53 – you aren’t suggesting that the coaches…I don’t know…”coach”? :-)

  55. Librocrat on June 5th, 2008 12:10 am

    I don’t know why all of you are so unhappy. In a roundabout way, responsibility was taken (even if it was by blaming everyone else). Changes will/might be made. I’m giddy. Will these changes likely be awful? Yes. But at least something is going to be different. Some sort of emotion is going to stir, even if that emotion is hate.

  56. Milendriel on June 5th, 2008 12:10 am

    What’s astonishing to me isn’t the team’s record. The potential for replacement-level (or worse) production existed up and down the whole roster, although the struggles of Bedard/Putz/Beltre have been surprising.

    No, what’s most shocking is how completely everyone at the manager level and above has lost any remaining shreds of baseball competence. I mean, think about it. The team has progressed from merely stupid decisions like bringing in Mateo to get a ground ball, sacrificing Rick White on the Vladimir Guererro altar, and tendering HoRam a contract only to cut him before the season, to decisions incomprehensibly bereft of any semblance of mental facility, like starting Miguel Cairo at first base and batting Jose Vidro cleanup. The rationales for these decisions (if any are provided at all) have also utterly eroded as well. I mean, isn’t it shocking that things have gotten so bad that McLaren makes Mike Hargrove look like a Hall of Fame coach, and Cairo makes Bloomquist seem like an amazing asset? Did anyone think Bavasi could do THIS poorly so perpetually? Has he made even a single good decision this season?

    I’ve never seen an organization go from “mediocre” to “historically terrible” so quickly, especially with the same manager and front office. That’s what I never saw coming, not even while knowing this team would lose a lot of games. Add to that all the verbal explosions going on in the clubhouse right now, and it’s downright fascinating.

  57. sealclubber253 on June 5th, 2008 12:19 am

    56- I agree, fascinating. I can’t wait for tomorrow to see what happens! Is Sexson finally gonna get the axe? Is Mac gonna come unglued and beat Washburn half to death with a bat weight? Is the next Ken Griffey Jr. Gonna be drafted? Is WFB gonna get an extension? Is Turbo gonna hit cleanup? Gonna have to wait for Friday for the last one, but damn, this is better than Melrose Place!

  58. DMZ on June 5th, 2008 12:28 am

    I don’t know why all of you are so unhappy.

    Yeah, that’s right up there with proving whether the axioms of arithmetic are consistent on the list of ultimately unsolvable problems that humanity may never be able to satisfactorily resolve.

  59. Librocrat on June 5th, 2008 12:38 am

    Exactly.

  60. jro on June 5th, 2008 12:42 am

    It sure does seem that the dysfunctional part of the aggregate organization is coming out in the open. I’m glad it’s happened, because it’s so freaking overdue. But now I want the uphill climb to begin. Like NOW.

    I want Clement recalled from Tacoma, put in the starting lineup, and left there for the rest of the year. And bring his hitting coach from Tacoma with him. He sure knows how to make him work down there; give him a chance up here. Pentland isn’t doing anything for us at this point.

    I want Sexson, Cairo and Vidro DFA’d. They are baggage, they are in the way, and they aren’t showing the younger guys anything about playing the game right. We won’t be any worse with replacements for these guys.

    I want us to acquire Omar Vizquel from the Giants and make Yuni and Jose carry his lunch around for him. He’s not a hitter, but he played the game right and knows a thing or two about defense (which is about two things more than Jose and Yuni at this point.) I have no way to gauge whether Yuni and Jose could *improve* their defense. Assuming they can, get them some guidance.

    I want us to trade Ibanez, Putz, Washburn, and Batista before the trade deadline for prospects. Ibanez can hit but is old, and Putz could still be a dominant closer. Washburn and Batista could be serviceable 5-hole guys for playoff contenders. Collectively, they could return talent in an exchange. I’m shaky about this because Bavasi is pulling the strings, but he’s the guy in place right now. Move them before they have zero value (like the DFA guys).

    Let Mclaren go in as respectful a way as possible. He’s not been in a good position for a long time, and he is not a good fit as a major league manager. Don’t make him an example. Then, go out and hire a real manager who won’t be a friend of the players (that’s the bench coach’s job.)

    If none of this happens, start figuring out replacement value for Armstrong, Lincoln, and Bavasi. Or simply swap them out for Alvin, Simon and Theodore. We can supply Dave. :-)

  61. NickBob on June 5th, 2008 1:19 am

    #60, I like your thinking. But I don’t want Bavasi making the deals.

    If none of this happens, start figuring out replacement value for Armstrong, Lincoln, and Bavasi.

    Boston had a similar situation in 2002, and the future looked bleak. We all know what happened next. Steal their script.

    Lincoln gets replaced from within. This ownership isn’t the problem per se, they spend but haven’t spent wisely. They’ve put together a business that works pretty well apart from the main attraction. I mean, garlic fries, microbrew, and the moose. No complaints there. But Lincoln’s the guy that values getting along to getting ahead. He’s failed and needs to go. They have other capable people among their partnership, they need to decide on a replacement managing partner. Armstrong needs to retire, or become a consultant. The new CEO should be able to find a solid replacement elsewhere. Cashman may be looking for work at season’s end, a change of scene and a desire for revenge would bring back an attitude missing since Lou left. USSM stumped for Antonetti and Ng last time around and they are still available.

    We have assets and money to spend. We lack the knowhow and the attitude, at least where it matters. Change those, and we could bee reaping the rewards sooner than later.

  62. seattlesundevil on June 5th, 2008 2:07 am

    60 – I have just started thinking about the same kind of thing. At this point, I would be all for trading / finding a way to get rid of Silva, Batista, Washburn and replacing them with Dickey, Morrow and Feirabend – granted, Silva is not really possible to get rid of at this point, and I guess he could stay..

    Bite the bullet and deal Putz, of which a considerable haul could be brought from a contending team with a need for a dominant closer. Ibanez, Sexson, Vidro and Yuni can all be dealt – with Ibanez and Yuni likely bringing back the most value (most being a relative word.)

    There is a solid core of players in place, and the Mariners’ front office has done one helluva job of finding cheap, solid relief pitchers so replacing J.J. on a bad team won’t be all that difficult. This is the same dilemma from a handful of years ago before Guardado was rendered ineffective. We had a chance to deal him at the deadline of a lost season, but held on to him – why? What is the need for a closer that is in high demand when you are not going to be winning anything or having any real need to get a high-pressure win.

    So yeah, basically this was all just a post saying that I agree with you jro.. I would actually thoroughly enjoy watching a rotation of Felix, Bedard, Morrow, Dickey and Feirabend – especially if a defense could be assembled through moving a few parts.

  63. Bender on June 5th, 2008 2:15 am

    The terrifying thought is that Bavasi is going to make some kind of crippling trade to try to right the ship and leave us even more fucked for next year.

  64. jsa on June 5th, 2008 2:17 am

    #52 Yes, Something should be done.

    Hire Shannon maybe?

    The assumption around baseball seems to be that if you get to the big leagues you no longer need to practice these skills. Its considered insulting to their ego to tell professionals to go out there and hone their skills.

    This works for almost no other profession that I know of. Cops go to the gun range monthly. Pilots take check-rides all the time.

    Lopez needs the work he needs to expand his range, and if our chirpy reporter can talk him into it, she’s doing a better job than McLaren. Yes, I’m only half kidding.

    Quoting the key paragraph from Shannon Drayer:

    I was even more encouraged to see Jose Lopez take even earlier ground balls. He told me that he was going to do this when we were in New York. He was devastated by the error in the second game against the Yankees he committed. I sat at his locker and talked to him about it as the clubhouse cleared that day. I reminded him that he had told me that he took early ground balls three days a week in winter ball. Just an aside, when he told me this in spring training I asked a couple of Mariners officials if this was something that was dictated by them and they said no, he did that on his own. I told Jose that I thought it was time he get out there again, that he was a good player, but an even better player when he put in extra work. He smiled and said he liked to hear that, then he called me coach. I showed up early to see if he actually did take the extra practice and was happy to see that he did. I asked if maybe he could bring his friend (Yuni) the next day and he said he didn’t know.

  65. Typical Idiot Fan on June 5th, 2008 2:47 am

    They’re blaming an old tiger with three broken legs for not jumping through the flaming hoop. Everybody thought it would do it and fans are expecting it and it sure roars loud. What could be wrong?

  66. Typical Idiot Fan on June 5th, 2008 2:50 am

    He smiled and said he liked to hear that, then he called me coach.

    Holy crap. So all this team of Lost Boys needed was a mom? Would that make Willie “Tinkerbell”?

  67. John in L.A. on June 5th, 2008 2:50 am

    jsa – Do you really think that pro players think they don’t have to work on their craft? They do it more than any of your examples. Cops don’t hit the shooting range before every shift.

    These guys are continually working on their craft. Innovating? Maybe not. But honing their skills? Absolutely. More, probably, than most other professions.

  68. John in L.A. on June 5th, 2008 2:59 am

    And I find that pretty patronizing coming from Drayer. Lopez should have asked her what his VoRP was and said that he noticed her questions were better if she showed up to work early and memorized some stats, maybe took a class. And maybe she could bring her under-educated colleagues to the community college stats class with her.

    I’d love it if these guys flipped out from all the insinuations and started asking the reporters when they could expect the quality of questions to improve. Or ask Hargrove when his use of the bench was going to make sense. Or Bavasi if he could get AJ back.

    Their performances are totally fair game, but the implication that they don’t care or aren’t trying is bush league.

  69. Flowin on June 5th, 2008 5:13 am

    Let us assume these things happen:

    1. McLaren fired today
    2. Sexson cut.
    3. Silva or Batista (both equally bad) put into long relief– Dickey is a starter
    4. Clement or Johnson is brought up, and Kenji is sent down.
    5. Vidro is cut. Reed takes over LF. Ibanez is DH.

    What happens to the team? Do we actually get any better??

  70. CCW on June 5th, 2008 5:49 am

    Traiiiiin Wreeeeeck Theaaaaaattter. Love it.

  71. scottbankhead on June 5th, 2008 6:06 am

    “This is a problem that includes the general manager and his office, the manager and his staff, and the players to a great degree,” Bavasi said, adding wryly: “Right now, the medical guys are doing a great job, and the clubhouse guys are tremendous.”

    I am glad Bavasi can make jokes with his job on the line.

  72. pygmalion on June 5th, 2008 6:54 am

    I don’t think that I ever remember seeing anything like this before. It’s unbelievable. And right before the draft! Talk about bad timing. “Hey kid, want to sign with us?” Life flashes before his eyes. “I’m going to college!”

  73. G-Man on June 5th, 2008 7:16 am

    Bavasi and Mac had a couple strange rants there. They would not blame the players, but they professed unhappiness with the results. IMHO, John’s rant was totally put on, just an attempt to stir up the players without throwing them under the bus.

    The organization has a fundamental problem that I assume comes from Lincoln and/or the owners: they try to be competitive every year – no, make that every month, as they don’t know when to give up on a season. That needs to change, and if that means dumping Lincoln, do it. OTOH, if ownership is OK with a rebuilding program and Bavasi is the eternal optimist, then ditching him will suffice.

  74. eponymous coward on June 5th, 2008 7:38 am

    http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/06/no_one_immune.html

    Until today, anyhow. Today, we got Armstrong and Bavasi in a rare public double-header. Though Armstrong apparently didn’t want his yelling at coaches this morning to become public. Why would he? He’s on record saying they’ve done a tremendous job.

    Like I’ve been saying, the public posturing about “gee, things are swell” from the Mariner front office is exactly that- posturing for the public.

  75. SequimRealEstate on June 5th, 2008 7:43 am

    “Right now if I were to say, you know what, (Triple-A first baseman Bryan) LaHair’s a better solution here, or (Jeff) Clement’s a better solution … yeah, it’s a minimum salary,” Bavasi said. “It’s got nothing to do with money. Those changes, yeah, you can do that. It’s not that tough. But the trade market is where you can have greater impact, I would think.” This is the the thing that scares me about this situation and Bender 63 as well. Whole sale changes and by the guy who cannot do it is enough to make one scared, very scared. Just bring up what we have or do something on the cheap and let the next GM try and man the pumps and right the ship.

  76. cody on June 5th, 2008 7:46 am

    You know, up to this point I haven’t had much of a problem with Bavasi. Sure, he is incompetent, but he can’t help it if he was hired for a spot that he wasn’t qualified for. Sure, there have been bright spots (Beltre, bringing in Felix, etc.), but the bottom line is: this team sucks. I have a problem with Bavasi now because he’s taking the team that he put together and throwing off a cliff. If a building collapses, does the blame get put on the materials its made up of? No. I get puts on the idiot who constructed it.

  77. msb on June 5th, 2008 8:11 am

    huh. according to Nightengale, “Bavasi … blamed himself for constructing the team”

  78. PADJ on June 5th, 2008 8:37 am

    It’s a comedy of errors. Bavasi claims that Mac’s job isn’t in jeopardy and says something to the effect that “this isn’t a field managerial issue.”

    Okay then, Bill. What kind of managerial issue IS it? I’ll go along with the concept that it’s up to the players to execute and perform once the game starts, so they are partly responsible.

    But it is the manager’s job to come up with a lineup that puts your team (such as it may be) in the best position possible to compete and succeed. We’ve seen evidence Mac hasn’t done that well, so he’s accountable.

    It’s also the manager’s job to find ways to motivate his team to succeed. Again, take a look at this year’s Mariners and Mac hasn’t done that well, so he’s accountable again.

    Of course, Bavasi put this roster and its contracts together so he is accountable for that.

    The tree is rotten from roots to leaves. There has been a lot of shouting, swearing and finger pointing, but the link in #77 is the first time I’ve seen it reported that ANYONE associated with this fiasco has acknowledged their OWN accountability.

  79. Rain Delay on June 5th, 2008 8:57 am

    #8 – As a Braves fan, you guys can have Norton back. Bobby Cox has developed a man crush for Norton, and he’s gone from Bench Bat to starting Left Fielder.

    Not. Good.

  80. JerBear on June 5th, 2008 9:59 am

    DEAD SERIOUS HERE. Couldn’t we take out a couple full page ads in Seattle newspapers calling out Bavasi and Co. for constructing this awful team? You know, complete with some actual numbers to combat the baseball voodoo going around, and show why this team was destined to fail from the start. Heck, we could even have alternating quotes from the M’s FO and the writers of this blog & other savvy analysts. i.e.*

    “Nobody in the world thought we were going to be this bad.” – Mariners Management, June 2008

    “Um, it’s gonna be bad folks. Third to last place at best.” – USSM, March 2008

    “Defense is our strongpoint!” – Mariners Management, May 2008

    “This defense is gonna suck.” – USSM, March 2008

    “We’re just one piece away from a contending team.” – Mariners Management, February 2008

    “Management is delusional if they think they are just one piece away from a contending team.” – USSM, January 2008

    “Nobody saw this coming!!!” – Mariners Management, June 2008

    “Um, yeah, we did. You just don’t listen.” – USSM, June 2008

    *(Not-quite-actual-quotes. For illustrative purposes only.)

    Seriously, I think the only way there are going to be real changes at the top, is if the ownership feels pressure from the fans. And unfortunately, the majority of people out there get their news spun directly from the M’s. They think Raul’s a good fielder, Vidro’s a good hitter, “and so on and so forth.” They buy the lie that it’s solely the players fault, not the person who assembled the players.

    Educate the masses and the people will revolt!!!!

  81. Steve T on June 5th, 2008 10:17 am

    Speaking of taking responsibility, Carlos Silva in the P-I today is saying that “some teammates play for themselves, not team” and that the “Mariners lack desire”. So says the guy with the 6 ERA. The article includes this gem: “Like baseball observers have reiterated for weeks, Silva said the Mariners are a talented group that inexplicably doesn’t win.”

    Yeah, imagine that. There’s NO WAY anybody could have foreseen that these superstars wouldn’t perform. Who woulda thunk it?

  82. Steve T on June 5th, 2008 10:21 am

    More goodness from Andriesen’s article, quoting Bavasi: ” ‘ It’s a completely demoralizing position we’re in right now, based on the completely legitimate (preseason) expectations,’ Bavasi said.”

    No possible way anyone could have known we’d suck. Not with superstars like Sexson and Cairo and Vidro on this team.

  83. crazyray7391 on June 5th, 2008 11:04 am

    So, it sounds like most of us want the same things to happen: Fire Bavasi and McLaren, DFA or move Sexson, Vidro, Cairo, Ibanez, Putz, ect…

    But what do you think the FO is actually going to do? Are they going to just let McLaren go and call it good until the end of the season? Would they really eat somebody’s contract so that they could DFA them?

    I’m actually very curious to see what is going to happen next. Until something does happen however, I guess I’m going to go out and buy some Coors Light so I can “vent” during the game tommorow.

  84. PADJ on June 5th, 2008 11:51 am

    But what do you think the FO is actually going to do?

    In the short term I would guess that Mac would go and we may see a few player moves…DFA’s or trades if anyone is interested. They pretty much have to do something. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If they think the heat is bad now, try it in a couple of months if they don’t do anything!

    I think the recent rash of temper tantrums, finger pointing and tossing people under the bus is motivated partly because their lousy performances have been noticed and they’re being called out for it. As I said, they’re pretty much committed to having to do something…and we can only hope it isn’t a terrible thing.

    I don’t think that this is all that should be done, but your question was directed at what the FO would actually do… :-)

  85. joser on June 5th, 2008 3:37 pm

    Does anybody have a scan of the Dennis the Menace cartoon from today’s (June 5) PI? It’s the most hilariously appopriate non-editorial editorial cartoon I’ve seen.

  86. pgreyy on June 5th, 2008 4:05 pm
  87. pgreyy on June 5th, 2008 4:06 pm

    Yesterday’s was more appropriate, I think.

    …definitely something Richie Sexson would agree with.

  88. Arkinese on June 5th, 2008 5:15 pm

    Can anyone speculate on what, if anything, it will take get Bavasi to resign? Is he so absolutely delusional that he will go down rearranging deck chairs on the Hindenburg (â„¢Mr. Colbert)? And I’m not asking for realistic possibilities based on this club’s attitude/owners/etc. Literally, just anything that people think would get him to resign. I cannot come up with something drastic enough but thought others might be able to.

  89. BigJared on June 5th, 2008 6:49 pm

    4.) Ibanez to center. You think he’s gritty now, watch him try to cover 50% more ground.

    I may have just laughed myself a hernia.

  90. joser on June 5th, 2008 7:05 pm

    Yes, it was the the latter. I was sure I was looking at today’s paper, but maybe I was wrong (or maybe the PI is out of synch?)

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