Salt Lake sweeps Seattle
In the three game series that just ended:
Vladimir Guerrero didn’t have an at-bat
Chone Figgins didn’t have an at-bat
Erick Aybar didn’t have an at-bat
John Lackey didn’t pitch
Kelvim Escobar didn’t pitch
The Angels swept the Mariners in Seattle without their All-Star #1 starter, their All-Star #2 starter, their All-Star right fielder, their starting third baseman, and their starting shortstop.
If you took Felix, Bedard, Ichiro, Beltre, and Betancourt off this team and sent them to go play another major league franchise, they’d lose 104-3. The Angels just played a series without their equivalents to those five guys and swept the Mariners at home.
If you need more evidence that the people who put this team together deserve to be fired, you don’t deserve to be making that decision.
The Nationals are the only team with a worse lineup, and that’s because of injuries.
How did we get from 95′ to here? I mean, I know how, I just don’t know how.
Our division rival picked this series to rest their best players.
How’s the new callup Vidro working out?
There’s no way that Mariners team scores three runs. You’re off your rocker.
Dave-
I always enjoy the posts, but have always felt the negativity in the comment section on this site is way too over the top to be taken too serious.
This post though sums it up. You two were right all along.
How sad that Armstrong sees Bavasi and Mac as part of the solution. We can only hope he’s just putting up a front until the axe falls….SOON!
For some instructive comparisons, I’ve picked the worst 9 teams (full 162 game seasons) in Mariner franchise history.
2008: game 60 (21-39) Final record: ?
2004: game 82 (32-50) Final record: 63-99
1992: game 84 (33-51) Final record: 64-98
1986: game 116 (49-67) Final record: 67-95
1983: game 70 (26-44) Final record: 60-102
1980: game 95 (38-56) Final record: 59-103
1979: game 106 (44-62) Final record: 67-95
1978: game 52 (17-35) Final record: 56-104
1977: game 114 (48-66) Final record: 64-98
The 1981 strike team took until game 74 to get to 28-46, and would have been a 65-97 team projected to 162 games.
Congratulations, John, Bill and Chuck. You’ve built the Mariners team that’s taken the fastest dive in 30+ years, and only beaten by one Mariner team in history.
Oh, and this should ALSO tell you that the odds that the Mariners will suddenly become a decent team if they keep putting the same guys out there are somewhere around slim to none. This is a team that could lose 100 games on merit.
Oh, the missing sentence in that is “I’ve compared them to see how long it took for each team to get to 18 games under .500″.
Three weeks ago I predicted the M’s would go 3-15 during that supposedly brutal stretch against Det, NYY, Bos & LAA.
Even though Detroit and New York are terrible, we played Boston when they were in a funk,and the Angels were depleted some, we are 3-12 and on the verge of a nice sweep at Fenway to make my prophecy come true.
Could be 2-13 if not for the fluke 1-0 win!
They’re so terrible they should bring back the old marketing phrases from when I was growing up in the 80’s. I liked “Mariners Baseball….Makin’ It Happen”
I’m starting to think this team may just not be very good. Whaddya think?
You know, seeing them regress not just to the bad old days of 1983 but the bad old days of goddamn 1978, which I remember all too well, just makes me angry.
I think I’ll quit and go watch the Euros instead.
On Deadliest Catch and Axe Men, they use horns to beep out the worst of the swearing.
Now we know what the trains at SafeCo are for. Someone was thinking ahead when they put the stadium right next to those tracks.
There must be some other explanation.
With a 100 plus mil payroll there a pretty good chance once in a while, even with an incompetent GM, you’ll have a winning season. That aberration was last year. This year and the first three of Bavasi’s tenure show his true capabilities in putting together a team. I find it baffling how this guy even has a job.
4 – Including today, Vidro has gone .264/.310/.377 since his callup.
I’m sure that .687 OPS is justification enough…
No no guys… we are good. *Drinks more Koolaid*.
Lefebvre Belebvre (post #6):
Armstrong is a big, big part of the problem. If he fired himself today, that would lead to a bigger overall positive change than if both Bavasi & McLaren were fired today.
I’m not sure they could hire somebody worse than Armstrong. (And then, if it did happen, for sure I’d hear that Woody Woodward was next in line for the job.)
Time to send Sexson to Tacoma to work out some little kinks in his swing so he is ready for the “second half surge”.
I did like the Mclaren rant though. Best thing to happen all season.
Well Obadiah Stane deserves to get fired in my book.
Lets take to the streets with pitchforks and torches.
. . .and reams of statistical evidence written in crayon so they might comprehend.
Hey, at least the draft is on tomorrow. That’ll be fun.
There is freedom within, there is freedom without
Try to catch the deluge in a paper cup
There’s a battle ahead, many battles are lost
But you’ll never see the end of the road
While you’re traveling with me
Hey now, hey now
Don’t dream it’s over
Sentiments courtesy of Crowded House’s “Don’t Dream It’s Over.”
Dave’s post is actually one of the funniest posts I’ve read in a ridiculously long time.
I mean guys, lets take a step back and comprehend. We are the worst team in Franchise history and we have over 115 million dollars in payroll.
Could this be the biggest flop in sports history? I mean the Knicks of recent must be up there … but this bad?
Question- what do you do with an idiot manager? Answer- fire him
Question- what do you do with an idiot GM? Answer- fire him
Question- what do you do with an idiot stacked on an idiot stacked on yet another idiot? Answer- ? Move to Tampa Bay?
— John McLaren post game.
I feel bad for him
I know they won’t fire anyone before the draft, but how soon after it could they finally do it? Does firing the manager or GM normally happen just before they leave on a road trip, when they get back from a homestand, or mid-road trip?
If they were to fire both McLaren and Bavasi, I don’t care who replaces McLaren for the rest of the year, but whoever replaces Bavasi better be on his game right away. I doubt they’d bring in an interim GM, so can they get someone from another organization after the draft to be the GM?
22- I don’t. Not a smart man, and he deserves what he’s getting. He seems like a nice man, a man with “heart” but so does this 25 man roster, and look where that’s gotten us.
I believe John McLaren’s post game rant might just get him fired.
He just ruined the family friendly atmosphere!
> How did we get from 95′ to here? I mean, I know how, I just don’t know how.
I don’t understand why people keep bringing up a season from 13 years ago. If it was four years ago, okay. But how can ‘95 even be relevant? 13 years is a long time, with much turnover in upper management (and, of course, total turnover in players.)
I didn’t live in Seattle in ‘95 and didn’t follow the team then, so maybe it’s a “you had to be there!” feeling for longtime fans?
When I move here in 2001 (good year to start following the M’s, I know
, I couldn’t believe how often people referenced ‘95, and more specifically, “The Double”, also known as “The Double That Saved Baseball in Seattle.” I’m 100% pro-feelgood stories and happy endings, but it was weird how much that came up, several years down the line…
Huh.
Any sympathy I could’ve had for McLaren went away when he wrote Vidro’s name in the #4 spot.
He’s clearly passed incompetence and he’s actively trying to spite us.
Hey # 10:
The last time we had a horse win the Triple Crown was 1978. You know what the Mariners record was on June 10, 1978, when Affirmed edged Alydar in the Belmont Stakes?
Answer: 19-43
This Saturday, Big Brown has a chance to win the Triple Crown. You know what the Mariners record will be?
Joe C… I highly doubt we fire the GM during the season… maybe towards the end, but I just can’t see it happening. Granted, I don’t have any insight or privileges, but (to me) it just doesn’t make too much sense.
Now on McLaren, I could easily see it happening. He needs to be fired. He hasn’t put a good lineup on the field and he needs to be out. ASAP.
captain – not a smart man … but he is the least at fault in all this in my opinion.
1) Bill Bavasi / Armstrong / Lincoln
2) Players
3) McLaren
And I would put him at a distant 3rd. Just my opinion though – and I dont know if he deserves to keep his job but his ‘GM; and ally really screwed him.
Of course… he didn’t build the team. BUT he still plays the players he does. Why would he bat Vidro 4th and then wonder why we aren’t winning? Makes no sense.
Today’s game inspired a haiku:
The Ms are playing
My cat coughed up a hairball
His breath smells bad too.
imagine living this season for about 17 years, and then imagine that suddenly, the last 2 months of the season, the team starts to win, and makes it to the postseason, finally.
31 – you are right, hitting vidro 4th is completely unacceptable – and I’ve seen some good suggestions for a better lineup … but as the USSM authors and everyone on this board has pointed out numerous times – this team is GARBAGE all around.
unless we get personal changes do you really think anything will change? regardless of the line up?
maybe it will, but doubtful.
I just think Mac has more to offer after learning from Sweet Lou for so long and would hate to see him take the fall for horrible players / and a horrible F.O.
Just because firing McLaren won’t fix all the issues this team has, doesn’t mean he should continue to hang onto his job.
Where in McLaren’s “rant” does he say anything about changing the roster?
The man is absolutely delusional. He actually thinks this team is good!
I’m not saying McLaren is the problem with this team, but he is a symptom of a much greater problem within the entire organization. In short, they have no clue what the hell they are doing.
Chuck Armstrong has haunted this city for 26 years with his stupid-ass decisions.
Bill Bavasi is beyond incompetent. I can’t think of an adjective to accurately portray his mismanagement in the GM chair. The man has taken it to a whole new level. Way to go, Bill!
McLaren is beyond overmatched. Granted, his lineup options are limited, but I began to get a sinking feeling about this guy during that four-game sweep in Baltimore. And as somebody else already wrote–Vidro batting 4th????
I know people on this site talk about “real fans” etc. However, I can’t blame anybody if they desert this circus of absurd incompetence. Because
I’m utterly speechless that this sad-sack outfit is allowed to go unchanged day after day after day after day.
And that everyone from the owner on down evidently thinks that this sorry-ass club is somehow going to turn it around.
Hey, Lincoln! Hey, Armstrong! Hey, Bavasi! Hey, McLaren!
IT AIN’T GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!
I stopped complaining about McLaren’s decisions about a month ago. He’s been handed a team destined to fail. There is no true #3 or #4 hitter on this team. His bullpen sucked ass for the first month+. The defense has been extra shitty(we knew it wasn’t a strength, but some of the errors are just ridiculously stupid).
I admit all that despite me still thinking McLaren isn’t that good of a manager. The players haven’t done him any favors whatsoever.
#36-
I agree, but the danger with replacing him midseason is that the new guy winds up leading the team to a .500 record and the pressure builds on management to give him the job full-time rather than conduct a proper search for a new manager in 2009.
Not that this has happened to Seattle recently or anything.
Someone who can manage to get this team to a .500 record probably deserves the job in 2009.
Bratman, we are a horrible team, you are correct. We gave up some of our best prospects for a pitcher that wont contribute much at all, well except for that draft pick that we’ll gain when he leaves via free agency.
My deal is that why hang on to horrible coaches even if it isn’t necessarily their fault? Mac is not a good coach and doesn’t deserve a job as an MLB head coach. You can’t deny that. He’s a Lou disciple, sure, but he sure hasn’t learned a damn from him so far. He’s not an intelligent man and I hope that he pulls a “Hargrove” soon and retires mid-season. Save us all some grief.
His only accomplishment with this team is when, after he was hired, we re-signed Ichiro. I’m very happy about that, but that single signing should not mean that he gets to keep his job.
If he’s here on the interim the new manager would know that it’s a part-time gig. He would know that he would have a chance to be re-signed but it’s probably unlikely with this team. I suggest Perlozzo because we all know that he’s not really worth a damn.
Just let Norm do it. He and his throw it inside mentality can’t hurt.
Continued from #38
And not only that, the SP has been an absolute disaster. I never thought it’d be the rotation the M’s thought it would be(five #1’s-lol), but I thought it’d be middle of the pack at worst.
41 / captain – right, and I dont want to get swarmed on this thread for defended Mac … I can’t believe most of his maneuvers and I can’t believe I am even defending him at all
However two things two think about
1) BoMel is now winning in Arizona, and that is a direct result of the F.O. down there preparing an exceptional team filled with young talent for him to manage. I know I disliked BoMel on the same level as Johnny Mac right now. Who knows if its Melvin winning or their talent?
2) Mac picked up after Grover randomly quit mid season last year during a 9 game winning streak. Picking up from that is tough to do, I don’t care who you are. And the F.O. completely set him up for failure this year, we all knew it: the F.O. surrounded / filled our teams with bad players and bad signings/bad trades even some will vehemently argue.
I just think its unfair for it to come down on Mac’s head that is all. He hasn’t even managed a full season!!
You think MAC wants these players? Bavasi will be the first d-bag to throw his manager under the bus.
If you listen really hard, you can hear Bedard, Beltre’, and Felix crossing the days off their calendars until their contracts are up and they can get out of town. The low level scream is Ichiro realizing he’s stuck here for the rest of his career.
Knock off the name calling. You don’t have to like the jobs these guys have done, but that doesn’t make the idiots or morons.
47 – Absolutely, Apologies from this end
What statistics did you use to come up with with 104-3. cause my numbers say 96-12.
Seriously though, unless you are on ESPN and picked this team to win there really is no reason why anybody should have expected anything of this team. Whoever started the trend of the clubhouse guys or the guys with intangibles didn’t know the ‘08 Mariners were going to be hanging around.
Mac may not want the players, but he has a say in roster moves. He could have kept Clement up and in the line-up daily. He could play Wlad in RF daily and Reed in LF daily with Raul at DH daily… he chose not to. It’s his decision. I’m not trying to swarm you, but I just think you’re wrong in trying to justify defending him.
Now if you want to see a manager that was set up to fail, I think you should look at BoMel’s stint here. I don’t think he’s a good manager either, but I’m sure he’s better than Mac… but I really feel that Bavasi gave him the worst possible team.
We are both in agreement that Bavasi, Armstrong, Lincoln are the real culprits, but because they are does not dismiss Mac’s bad managerial skills.
if you asked any of the three if they were playing their best this season, would they sya they were?
And Bavasi has at least shown his true spine. He was fired from his previous job because he wouldn’t fire some of his scouts/managers… I forget the details, but you understand. He is very loyal, maybe to a fault. I like the man that Bavasi is, I just don’t like his style.
True and it gets worse and worse to think about it harder… could be the biggest flop in sports history.
Somebody compared this team to recent Knicks teams… not far off. I’d say we are worse though. We are one of, if not the biggest, flop in history.
In the 25 games preceding Armstrong’s “vote of confidence” for Mac (May 7th), the team went 10-15. Since that vote, the team has responded by going 7-18. With no new injuries in that timeframe, the team just played worse.
The danger of *not* replacing Mac is sending a signal that the status quo is the path to improvement. Normally that’s not been anything to rattle the cages of our fabulous F.O.
But now, if they don’t make a change, the bigger story will be how they DIDNT make a change. And that will fall squarely on Bavasi, Armstrong and Lincoln.
Right now I think the only thing this current regime has proven itself credible at is player development and even then it’s not like their farm needs a flood gate.
Anyone higher than Bob Fontaine and Co really needs to be kicked to the curb.
The 7 year old inside me snickered at Johnny Mac’s rant after the game today.
I am actually very excited about the situation we are in right now. The draft is tomorrow, and the smell of change is in the air.
Gee, thanks John McLaren for having this rant when we are 18 GAMES UNDER .500!!!!!
And you know what, forget McLaren.
I will not take anything this team does in the front office seriously anymore unless Nintendo and this 80 year old Japanese owner of ours that has never seen a baseball game and has always treated this team like his toy in his net worth sells this team to an American (preferably local) business group that gives a crap about putting a winner on the field along with being fair to the fans and not overcharging for tickets.
I am sick and tired of watching this crap YEAR AFTER YEAR and seeing these ticket and concession prices INCREASE.
Bud Selig may not Mark Cuban to own the Cubs, but he should be pleading him to buy the Mariners who are an American sports franchise owned by an absentee corporation based in Japan that could bring in huge money for the MLB.
And for those of you who think that’s racism, then you are full of bologna.
We gave Nintendo a fair chance to own the team and let’s face it, we needed them in the ’90’s when we were trying to survive and to their credit, they did help us survive.
But lord knows if they keep owning this team, then Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong will continue to run this franchise the way they have for years and years and this franchise’s fan base will dry out and turn to the MLS.
I don’t want to have to boycott games and root for this team to lose, but if that’s the only way we get an ownership change for the better, then so be it.
I’m speaking entirely from intuition, and not from experience…
When to fire the manger – This can happen pretty much at any time, but it would be the height of organizational indignity to fire a manager while on the a road trip. If a firing doesn’t happen before the plane boards for Boston, then don’t expect such a move prior to the M’s returning home.
When to fire the GM – This is much more complex. First of all, a decision has to be made regarding whether to retool (failure due to players’ underperformance) or rebuild (organizational failure). Since the M’s basically endorsed Bavasi’s vision at the end of last season, it would be very difficult to recant that wisdom (i.e. move to rebuild) so soon thereafter. In either case, a midseason GM firing is highly unlikely, but possible (see below). It’s easier to fire the manager and one/more of the coaches midseason, effectively laying the failure at their feet. This is the most likely scenario.
If the decision is to retool, then the GM might be fired midseason if there is a belief that the season could be rescued with a few shrewd player personnel decisions. In this case, the GM is fired so as to eliminate the risk that the effect of decisions hereinafter will mirror decisions heretofore.
If the decision is to rebuild, then the GM might be fired midseason if (i) it is cost effective to do so, and (ii) there is an inside track or head-start path to desirable GM candidates. GMs usually have buyout provisions in their contract, so the likelihood of firing is greater when the GM has at least one more season left beyond the current season. Moreover, if the GM were fired midseason, you can best believe that upper mgmt has their eye on a few candidates and got some tamper-proof skinny to work with.
Based on what I see so far, my educated guess is that the death watch is on for MacLauren and staff, and that Bavasi will be shown the door at season’s end.
> How did we get from 95′ to here? I mean, I know how, I just don’t know how.
I don’t understand why people keep bringing up a season from 13 years ago. If it was four years ago, okay. But how can ‘95 even be relevant? 13 years is a long time, with much turnover in upper management (and, of course, total turnover in players.)
I didn’t live in Seattle in ‘95 and didn’t follow the team then, so maybe it’s a “you had to be there!†feeling for longtime fans?
When I move here in 2001 (good year to start following the M’s, I know
, I couldn’t believe how often people referenced ‘95, and more specifically, “The Doubleâ€, also known as “The Double That Saved Baseball in Seattle.†I’m 100% pro-feelgood stories and happy endings, but it was weird how much that came up, several years down the line…
Huh.
What I meant by my comment was this. I never thought 95 would be that one season we would look back on with fondness. We had Jr., A-ROD, Bone, Edgar, RJ, etc. We were getting a new stadium so there would be $$$ to go with all of that talent. I really believed this organization was on the brink of becoming an elite franchise.
I am not longing for those days, I am wondering how on earth we took that kind of momentum and talent, added some cash, and in 13 years turned it into the Baltimore Orioles under Angelos.
um, I don’t get your Nintendo rant. it’s not like the owner is only allowing a $38M payroll. the resources are there. staffing/players are not his responsiblity.
I’m sure I don’t understand the situation well, but I can’t imagine it’s the owner that needs to change to fix things.
.02
1995 kept baseball in Seattle. It made Seattleites (as a whole) love baseball and the Mariners. 1995 was a magical year. We all know it’s over and wont ever come back, but it saved Mariner baseball and for that year, most of us will always remember it.
I think McLaren is about the break down mentally.
I don’t think the Sonics organization compares to the Knicks for incompetence. The Knicks are as bad a team as the Mariners, but they’re also the highest-payroll team in basketball, have all the advantages of being in New York, and are crippled in their ability to fix the problem for years. Their failure is the most colossal I can remember in major sports in my lifetime. Unlike the Mariners, they don’t even have anything to build around. The Knicks are the pyrite standard for ineptitude.
Sonics??? Um, I meant Mariners.
#61:
Think it through. If we had a real owner, do you think Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong would have their jobs after this season and do you think Bill Bavasi would have his job right now? Of course not.
A real owner would fire people for all the years of losing to call for accountability.
But guess what ladies and gentlemen, it ‘aint happenin’.
Because like I said, this team is owned by an absentee corporation from Japan and a 80 year old from Japan who has never even bothered to fly out to Seattle to see a Mariners game and probably couldn’t tell the difference between a baseball and a kumquat and only owns this team so that his net worth will increase.
It all makes me frickin’ sick.
Just watch, McLaren will eventually be the sacrificial lamb but Bavasi, Armstrong, Lincoln will all be back. Just watch.
Erick Aybar is an all star? Where have I been?
Speaking of All-Stars, I’ll bet the Mariners are reduced to one of those teams who contribute only one “token” player, and it might not even be Ichiro. Probably Beltre, who’ll get to man 3B defensively in the late innings after ARod sucks up all the adulation and attention, and ABs.